Worth the fight?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

There is a part of me that thinks the kiddos just need a good therapist, on the other hand, the time they will have with her will be just like before, but without me to intervene or take some of the hate. I received some new information that was able to put some of my doubt about her BPD to rest and now I am thinking about seeking full custody (divorce isn't final).  I don't think she is capable of doing what is best for the kids, so I feel like I have to do what is least damaging. There's no telling how her delusions would manifest themselves in a courtroom. She'd no doubt go nuclear. So. What I'm wondering- from folks that have been through a custody battle- what was your experience? What weren't you expecting? In the end, was it worth it? Or did it cause more harm than good to the little ones?

[GrtLakeDiver]

There is a part of me that thinks the kiddos just need a good therapist, on the other hand, the time they will have with her will be just like before, but without me to intervene or take some of the hate. I received some new information that was able to put some of my doubt about her BPD to rest and now I am thinking about seeking full custody (divorce isn't final).  I don't think she is capable of doing what is best for the kids, so I feel like I have to do what is least damaging. There's no telling how her delusions would manifest themselves in a courtroom. She'd no doubt go nuclear. So. What I'm wondering- from folks that have been through a custody battle- what was your experience? What weren't you expecting? In the end, was it worth it? Or did it cause more harm than good to the little ones?

[ForeverDad]

What weren't you expecting?

I knew court often sides with the mothers, as in, mother is a stay at home mother, you just keep going to work, send mother child support and see your kids on alternate weekends.  But my then-spouse was facing a Threat of DV charge in another court and I was sure that meant something.  But no, she went to domestic court and got temp custody and temp majority time.  That continued for 2 years until our divorce's final decree.  I concluded that court sees two separate sides to parents, their adult relationship behaviors don't necessarily impact their view of the parenting side.

In the end, was it worth it? Or did it cause more harm than good to the little ones?

Nearly all members here would look back and say it was worth it.  The positive outcomes surely outnumber (by a vast margin) the times it got worse.

As one book in the 80s quoted, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."

Court was reluctant in my case to grant me more than equal time, at first.  My lawyer said courts don't want to 'shock' the children with big changes.  So over 8 years I went from alternate weekends to equal time, then I became the Legal Guardian, then I gained majority time during the school year.  My son was 3 at the start and 11 when we finally got an order that worked.

Yes, seek full custody.  If you don't get that, try for Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  Since custody usually refers to major parenting decisions, courts often handle a parenting schedule separately.  So for that scheduling too, seek as much as you can get.  This may require you to report ex's poor parenting incidents, especially the ones you can document.  Court typically makes decisions based on documented facts, so you would be wise to do the same.  Don't listen to that side of you, as a Nice Guy or Nice Gal, who wants to hide the bad stuff.

Many of us had to request an in-depth Custody Evaluation which is much better than a cursory Psych Eval.  Also, you can request a Guardian ad Litem, a lawyer for the children but you have to be careful to vet potential GALs since some are inexperienced or may be clueless in tough cases or even biased.

[GrtLakeDiver]

Thanks- I'm supposed to meet with lawyer soon about all the different ways to go about this. I'm leaning towards the guardian ad litem. It's my understanding that, while they may consider mental health issues, they are ultimately looking at the relationships between the kids and parents.

This whole thing is just exhausting. She's so charming and well spoken that I believed everything she said for a decade. I can't imagine how she would be interviewing with someone about her kids. My fear is that she would end up with kids more than the current 50 50 we're doing now.

Maybe this is question for the lawyer, but maybe we see how it goes and when she messes up again go back and change the agreement.

[Protectourfamily]

This whole thing is just exhausting. She's so charming and well spoken that I believed everything she said for a decade. 

I don't have experience with custody arrangements, but this line resonated so deeply! I believed everything my BPDH said about me and to me for at least a decade ... I wish I would have gotten my kids and myself the help we needed earlier.
I wonder if your pediatrician or other such professional might have picked up on the dynamics, as far as your children's safety with their mother? I don't know if this would be applicable in court, but it might shed some light on the true situation...

[livednlearned]

GrtLakeDiver,

How old are the kids? What is the current arrangement in place?

Where you live will dictate a lot about what happens. It's important to find an assertive lawyer and ask questions about how things work where you live. If there is someone you trust, have them go with you when you see your lawyer and ask them take notes. Your emotions will be in play and you'll forget things that are important. If you can't think of a good person to go with you, take notes.

A couple of things to think about if you're just getting into this stuff:

The best outcome usually happens when you have a clear goal and ask your attorney what specific strategy would they take to reach that goal. Most of us go in naive and don't know how things work so we ask to have things explained to us and then follow blindly. However, if you are in this nightmare long enough you will realize that you are the boss. You can push back on lawyers or not hire ones whose ways of working don't align with how you see things.

I'm not sure if this lawyer appt is your first rodeo so you may know this already. But ask how long to expect a response. What happens when the lawyer goes on vacation, who takes over, if anyone. What is their relationship like with the judge. Have they handled high-conflict cases before and what were the outcomes. Names of GALs, names of custody evaluators, how does the system work where you live, how does billing work with the retainer -- meaning, how detailed, how often does the bill come, are there any ways the lawyer suggests you can cut costs (opening an attachment can cost more than sending an email, for example. Or, you can come pick you mail up there, or meet with associates who are less expensive). Does your lawyer have trial experience or are they stronger on the desk side of things.

Be cautious about lawyers who say moms get everything. There is research that these lawyers may be inadvertently perpetuating that bias by saying so. More women ask for sole custody (however that may be defined), so more women get it. Fewer men contest custody. Of the men who ask for sole custody, they were awarded it in equal numbers to women.

If you believe in your heart that the kids will do better spending more time with you, and outcomes will be better if you have sole decision-making, ask your lawyer what strategy he or she suggests to reach that goal. Then work from there. You probably won't get it right away but that's ok. It's best to avoid court, obviously, but for those of us in high-conflict cases, it can be unavoidable.

In my case, I asked for sole decision-making in mediation. Our temporary order (which is misleading, because it sets the status quo and is simply extended until something of substance happens to change it) said something along the lines of, "The parties agree to a, b, c, and all the way through x except for y and z which will be heard before a judge." And then we coasted until y and z became obviously in need of attention and went back to court.

Guardian ad litem's are a mixed bag, like all third-party professionals. They can be the nail in your coffin or the most important person in your case. Find out how they are trained, ask as many people as you can who they recommend until you start to hear the same names. Google them. Interview them. Ask how they work, what led them to this work, what training they have. Give your lawyer give your ex the top three names and tell her to pick one before day/date otherwise you will select one. Structure as many requests to her as possible that way to avoid stonewalling, which is the single most expensive thing we deal with in these cases.

Custody evaluations are more thorough and in many cases involve psychiatric evaluations of both parents. Look up "Matt" on this board -- he isn't active here but was years ago and learned a lot about CEs and helped many members learn how they work. CEs are expensive and can be time-consuming if they're thorough. If psychiatric evaluations are included, ask which ones are used. For example, the MMPI-2 seemed to be in vogue for a while but these things change and you'll want to know what flavor you're getting before you take a big bite.

Full custody is a misnomer in many places. Courts are aware that there is a *winning* and *losing* mindset when it comes to getting full custody so things are broken into small pieces that make it hard to tell whether one parent *won.* For example, say she is awarded primary custody but the kids are with you 70/30, and you are awarded decision-making for medical and educational issues with joint legal custody. Custody agreements can be very detailed and very customized, and entirely ignored with no consequences until you go back to court.

Your wife may also get awarded 50/50 and then slowly start gifting away time because parenting is stressful and pwBPD don't handle stress well. This happened to Matt. It happened to me. My ex was fighting like a wolverine in court to get more time on paper while gifting what little he had to me. It's a slightly different strategy that can and does work, the wait-and-see and let it play out, going to court when you have very clear, documented evidence.

Last, don't put all your eggs in the legal basket. It's an imperfect solution to a mental health issue. We battle in court, and we also battle for the hearts and minds of our kids. Read as much as you can about parental alienation and see which pieces apply to your situation. Read Bill Eddy's Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse if you haven't already, but also get his Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When a Parent has BPD. Get a copy of Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison and watch youtube video or read material by Dr. Craig Childress. All of the specific skills that can mitigate some of the harmful behaviors of BPD can work wonders with our hurting kids. Become black belt level good at validating how your kids feel. People with BPD are so consumed by need that they often cannot validate those around them -- the kids become extensions of themselves. Many of us who selected BPD partners are not great at validation either so it becomes a skill that is not intuitive and must be learned. Our kids tend to be starved for validation.

It is the single most important thing you can take away from all this. It is the antidote to what is extraordinary levels of conflict that can be debilitating for young kids. Bessel van der Kolk, who writes about trauma, says that it's the secondary trauma of feeling alone and isolated that seals the suffering in. Validation helps open those lids to let air circulate so trauma can heal.

LnL

[ForeverDad]

Ah, those were the good old days with Matt.  The stories we told... I text him now and again. I always vacation out West, but though I've been within a couple hundred miles, we've never yet met. Sometimes I lure him back to respond to a particularly apt incident and he returns to share his experiences.  Here's one.  In his state when the police are called both parents get arrested...

I thought about writing a book about my experience - 16 hours of hard time.  If I did, I think I would title it based on the most memorable quote from one of my cellmates:  "Yo white man you snoring!"  Good times, good times...

[mart555]

What weren't you expecting? In the end, was it worth it? Or did it cause more harm than good to the little ones?

I'm currently going through one and have been for the last 4 years.

I never expected her to go that crazy.  It was insane.  Death threats, assault (at my workplace!), harassment, .. she was charged in the criminal court and then breached her conditions (while blaming me and the kids), got charged for that again.  Before these episodes, there were a few where she ended up in the psych ward.  Crazy tantrums in the house where I had to call the cops.. when the kids were there.   All that from a mother that neighbours thought was a great mom.  I really did pull the pin of a grenade when I asked for a divorce, and pulled it again when I said "no!" to everything she felt entitled to.  It was insane. 

Add to this the alienation and nasty stuff she told the kids (she would leave and go kill herself, they hate her, they can get in touch with her whenever they will want to see her again because she is done with them,  telling them that I sexually abused her during our marriage, ..).  It was crazy.

I got so many threats that "she would kill herself if I left"..  a few years later she decided that she was a lesbian and a year later identified as a transgender.   Good for her that she discovered who she is but it really shows how the crazy stuff never stops.

I never expected that she was the cause of my oldest one chronic pain (due to stress!) or youngest one suicidal ideation (due to attachment disorder!).  I was blind to it all.

It's been tons of money tossed at lawyers, my ex dragging everything, it was exhausting physically and mentally..  but I managed to have full custody of both kids for the last 4 years "unofficially" (based on a temporary court order providing her limited access) but she hasn't been able to change it yet. 

 My kids are now thriving. They now see their mom twice a week for short visits of 4-5 hours each time and they come back happy.   None of this is enough for their mom however, she wants more. So I'm still fighting that war.   In 4 years my youngest will turn 18 and I'll be done.  Really looking forward to that but it still feels like a waste of my life (ie: wanting to get old as fast as possible)

Would I do it again? Hell yes. But I sure wish I could go back in time and smack myself around to to not marry her and avoid that ordeal...