Two questions

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm currently in the middle of a divorce with trial set for early March and two questions have been on my mind for the past week. Feel free to chime in on either or both of these questions.

1) When it's clear that there's a bias in favor of mothers in your county, yet your L tries to convince you otherwise, how would you handle that? I've given plenty of "evidence" and asked him that if it isn't sexism, then what is it, and he refuses to answer me other than to say that there isn't any bias.

2) I saw this on another online forum, and it didn't seem to make sense, but am curious as to whether or not any of you can provide more info. A poster essentially said that there's a difference between what mental health professionals consider to be child abuse and what family law professionals consider to be child abuse. Issues such as attempted parental alienation and domestic violence that occurs in the presence of children are both considered by mental health professionals to be child abuse. However, this poster said that in his state, he was told the courts take a different view and only treat physical or sexual abuse directly against the child as child abuse. Does that sound possible? And if it is, is there a way to convince the court that these behaviors are serious forms of child abuse?

[alleyesonme]

I'm currently in the middle of a divorce with trial set for early March and two questions have been on my mind for the past week. Feel free to chime in on either or both of these questions.

1) When it's clear that there's a bias in favor of mothers in your county, yet your L tries to convince you otherwise, how would you handle that? I've given plenty of "evidence" and asked him that if it isn't sexism, then what is it, and he refuses to answer me other than to say that there isn't any bias.

2) I saw this on another online forum, and it didn't seem to make sense, but am curious as to whether or not any of you can provide more info. A poster essentially said that there's a difference between what mental health professionals consider to be child abuse and what family law professionals consider to be child abuse. Issues such as attempted parental alienation and domestic violence that occurs in the presence of children are both considered by mental health professionals to be child abuse. However, this poster said that in his state, he was told the courts take a different view and only treat physical or sexual abuse directly against the child as child abuse. Does that sound possible? And if it is, is there a way to convince the court that these behaviors are serious forms of child abuse?

[GaGrl]

Have you posed these questions to another lawyer for a second opinion?

Do you have a GAL?

[alleyesonme]

Have you posed these questions to another lawyer for a second opinion?

Do you have a GAL?

Early in the process, there were two divorce lawyers that told me that if a dad ends up with 50/50 in our county, he should consider himself lucky. No one specifically said that there's a bias, but I took that as basically the same thing. But now that we're planning to start preparing for trial in the next few weeks, it can be very frustrating when my L tries to convince me that there isn't any sort of bias.

We do have a GAL, but the GAL's in our county are all lawyers and don't have a mental health background at all, so she fits that description.

[GaGrl]

Hmmmm...what type of custody and/or psychological evaluations has the GAL done?

[maxsterling]

Regarding the second question - I have been told that in most places, it is difficult to prove emotional abuse.  So while it is clearly abuse from a psychological angle, from a legal angle its not as easy to define.  

Recently I called a crisis/social service regarding information on having my W involuntarily evaluated for in-patient psychological services.  Two professionals over the past month have strongly suggested that I pursue it. To be held involuntarily, my W would have to be considered a danger to herself or others.  I asked if it meant physical danger only, and they said yes.  According to them, my W could scream and curse at me or the kids all day long and that would not be considered a danger to me or the kids to where they could hospitalize her involuntarily.  

Stinks that is the way it is, because IMO verbal/emotional abuse can be far worse and longer lasting than physical abuse.  

[kells76]

1) When it's clear that there's a bias in favor of mothers in your county, yet your L tries to convince you otherwise, how would you handle that? I've given plenty of "evidence" and asked him that if it isn't sexism, then what is it, and he refuses to answer me other than to say that there isn't any bias.

Could it be that your L is steering you away from a "less winning" angle? I.e., could it be that in your area, if a dad tries to shine a light on sex bias in a courtroom, he might "lose more"? It's a reach, but maybe that's at play in your L dissuading you from spending time on that approach.

As ruthless as it sounds, what if you asked your L: "What is the most winning strategy for me? Does any focus on sex bias help me win?" It's possible (though again, I don't know all the details) that the more you head down the path of "proving" mother-bias in court, the more judges in your area might write you off as "disgruntled dad".

If that's the case, though, your L seems under-skilled in expressing it.

there's a difference between what mental health professionals consider to be child abuse and what family law professionals consider to be child abuse. Issues such as attempted parental alienation and domestic violence that occurs in the presence of children are both considered by mental health professionals to be child abuse. However, this poster said that in his state, he was told the courts take a different view and only treat physical or sexual abuse directly against the child as child abuse. Does that sound possible?

I've heard that on these boards, too.

And if it is, is there a way to convince the court that these behaviors are serious forms of child abuse?

Remind me if you've been able to get a T for your kiddo?

My 30,000 foot gut feeling is you'd need "expert" testimony from professionals, with "cause and effect" incident patterns. So, for example, having a child psychologist testify, or some other kind of third party professional, about the theory, and then also having a pattern of how the emotional abuse impacts the child's functioning, especially academically, or socially in non-home settings (incidents at preschool, daycare, school hallways, etc).

Again, you might consider taking a "ruthless" approach of asking your L: "What's the winningest strategy for me, what approach gives me maximum time with my child and maximum legal standing in my child's life no matter what -- does focusing on emotional abuse make the cut; if not, what is the absolute winningest focus for me, given courts/judges in my area"

...

AEOM, I think I'm also remembering that you've had issues finding a good L?

[alleyesonme]

Regarding the second question - I have been told that in most places, it is difficult to prove emotional abuse.  So while it is clearly abuse from a psychological angle, from a legal angle its not as easy to define.  

Recently I called a crisis/social service regarding information on having my W involuntarily evaluated for in-patient psychological services.  Two professionals over the past month have strongly suggested that I pursue it. To be held involuntarily, my W would have to be considered a danger to herself or others.  I asked if it meant physical danger only, and they said yes.  According to them, my W could scream and curse at me or the kids all day long and that would not be considered a danger to me or the kids to where they could hospitalize her involuntarily.  

Stinks that is the way it is, because IMO verbal/emotional abuse can be far worse and longer lasting than physical abuse.  

Thank you for the feedback. Did you get any information about what would qualify as physical danger? In other words, what if she hit you or threw things at you? Would that be enough, or did you get the impression that it wouldn't be viewed the same if committed by a woman?

[alleyesonme]

Could it be that your L is steering you away from a "less winning" angle? I.e., could it be that in your area, if a dad tries to shine a light on sex bias in a courtroom, he might "lose more"? It's a reach, but maybe that's at play in your L dissuading you from spending time on that approach.

As ruthless as it sounds, what if you asked your L: "What is the most winning strategy for me? Does any focus on sex bias help me win?" It's possible (though again, I don't know all the details) that the more you head down the path of "proving" mother-bias in court, the more judges in your area might write you off as "disgruntled dad".

If that's the case, though, your L seems under-skilled in expressing it.

I've heard that on these boards, too.

Remind me if you've been able to get a T for your kiddo?

My 30,000 foot gut feeling is you'd need "expert" testimony from professionals, with "cause and effect" incident patterns. So, for example, having a child psychologist testify, or some other kind of third party professional, about the theory, and then also having a pattern of how the emotional abuse impacts the child's functioning, especially academically, or socially in non-home settings (incidents at preschool, daycare, school hallways, etc).

Again, you might consider taking a "ruthless" approach of asking your L: "What's the winningest strategy for me, what approach gives me maximum time with my child and maximum legal standing in my child's life no matter what -- does focusing on emotional abuse make the cut; if not, what is the absolute winningest focus for me, given courts/judges in my area"

...

AEOM, I think I'm also remembering that you've had issues finding a good L?

Great insight here - thank you. You make a great point that it wouldn't be smart to point out to the court that there's a bias against me, but it would be nice for my L just to acknowledge that it exists and that has played a major role in our case. To deny that it even exists is disrespectful to me. He's definitely underskilled at a lot of things.

I haven't gotten a T for our child, as my L advised against it at such a young age.

One problem with a lot of these BPD behaviors is that we may not see the significant impact they have on our D until years later. Since our D is very young, there aren't many significant behavioral concerns that aren't appropriate for someone her age. My concern is that I need to protect her future now, but the legal system is making it virtually impossible to do that.

I like those questions you suggested, and I'll be trying those out.

Yes, my L knows nothing about mental health, and when I try to send articles or book excerpts to him to show that I'm not just making this stuff up, he just blows it off.

[ForeverDad]

When we separated, my preschooler was 3 years 8 months old, probably about the same age as your child.  Almost immediately she took him to a county pseudo-agency and he started counseling.  I didn't find out until 3 months later when the insurance sent a 3 month recertification — to me.  Clearly she was seeking negative advocates since once I visited their offices they wouldn't tell me anything and asked me to write them a letter.  I did, twice, and the reply both times was a form letter that I was likely to be dangerous to the patient or parent.

Admittedly, she was the custodial parent in the temporary court order and so she was into control as far as the counselors were concerned.  But the same court order also granted me unrestricted 72 hour weekends and 3 hours midweek in between.  In no way did the court see me as likely to be dangerous.  It was not until our excellent Custody evaluator reached out over a year later that their frosty response started melting.

I assume at that young age they did play therapy with him.

[alleyesonme]

When we separated, my preschooler was 3 years 8 months old, probably about the same age as your child.  Almost immediately she took him to a county pseudo-agency and he started counseling.  I didn't find out until 3 months later when the insurance sent a 3 month recertification — to me.  Clearly she was seeking negative advocates since once I visited their offices they wouldn't tell me anything and asked me to write them a letter.  I did, twice, and the reply both times was a form letter that I was likely to be dangerous to the patient or parent.

Admittedly, she was the custodial parent in the temporary court order and so she was into control as far as the counselors were concerned.  But the same court order also granted me unrestricted 72 hour weekends and 3 hours midweek in between.  In no way did the court see me as likely to be dangerous.  It was not until our excellent Custody evaluator reached out over a year later that their frosty response started melting.

I assume at that young age they did play therapy with him.

Great info. It's sad how inconsistent the system can be. As I've said before, I'm so glad that everything eventually turned in your favor.

I first got the idea to take her to therapy on these boards, and a friend of mine that's a T suggested it as well. I'm all for it - whether it's play therapy or something else - but my L is strongly advising me against doing it.

[kells76]

but my L is strongly advising me against doing it.

What's his reasoning?

[BigOof]

I went through the same negative thinking. Negative thinking doesn't work here. Life isn't fair. Stop being the victim and start being the problem solver. Problem solvers win cases.

BPD's make a lot of unforced errors. What overt actions is she doing you documentation of? Is she making a lot of false accusations? Is she throwing things? Can you prove she lied?

If you can prove she lied, that's good enough. If the judge can't trust her, neither can your child. Who wants to grow up with a parent they can't trust?

If she is making a lot of false accusations, that's good enough. False accusations are parental alienation.

If she is throwing things, that's good enough. Clearly, she has no impulse control. Who wants to grow up in that household?

Build a picture that is death by a thousand self-inflicted BPD cuts.

[ForeverDad]

Is she making a lot of false accusations? Is she throwing things? Can you prove she lied?

If you can prove she lied, that's good enough. If the judge can't trust her, neither can your child. Who wants to grow up with a parent they can't trust?

If she is making a lot of false accusations, that's good enough. False accusations are parental alienation.

True, but also not necessarily.  In a perfect world... but we're not in a perfect world.  Sadly, that's the reality.  Years ago I read a comment here and have often repeated it...

The person who is behaving poorly seldom gets appropriate consequences and the person who is behaving well seldom gets appropriate credit.

I quoted that because often when I faced serious but false allegations, they were either ignored, dismissed outright or investigated and dropped as "unsubstantiated".  (They would have been better determined to be "unfounded" but we seldom get that passive courtspeak of "liar".)  The huge problem was that they were addressed - and dismissed - one by one and not all together.

While you may be right in everything you provide to the court, judges are allowed discretion in how they rule and so sometimes it's a crap shoot.  Do your best overall and know deep inside you've done what you could.  If something goes less well then that's something to be addressed the next time.

[BigOof]

Good point, ForeverDad.

I've reported myself to CPS multiple times. CPS has said if the false allegations continue they'll step in and recommend a change of custody. This is how I'm turning false accusations against me into a positive. The point is to work out how you can use the bad behavior to your advantage.

[alleyesonme]

What's his reasoning?

That the court will look at me sideways if I put our D in therapy at this age despite not having any major behavioral concerns. I don't agree with this thinking at all, but it gets confusing when you're trying to decide whether or not to go against your L's advice.

[alleyesonme]

I went through the same negative thinking. Negative thinking doesn't work here. Life isn't fair. Stop being the victim and start being the problem solver. Problem solvers win cases.

BPD's make a lot of unforced errors. What overt actions is she doing you documentation of? Is she making a lot of false accusations? Is she throwing things? Can you prove she lied?

If you can prove she lied, that's good enough. If the judge can't trust her, neither can your child. Who wants to grow up with a parent they can't trust?

If she is making a lot of false accusations, that's good enough. False accusations are parental alienation.

If she is throwing things, that's good enough. Clearly, she has no impulse control. Who wants to grow up in that household?

Build a picture that is death by a thousand self-inflicted BPD cuts.

Thank you for the tips. I've documented everything possible. She's made false allegations, she's lied to the court, she's admitted to being physically violent, etc. We have all of those documented. But it sounds like, at least in our county, the court still won't care. It's sad, and it's hard not to think there's a giant bias in favor of mothers where we live.

[alleyesonme]

Good point, ForeverDad.

I've reported myself to CPS multiple times. CPS has said if the false allegations continue they'll step in and recommend a change of custody. This is how I'm turning false accusations against me into a positive. The point is to work out how you can use the bad behavior to your advantage.

Can you explain what you mean by self reporting to CPS?

[BigOof]

Can you explain what you mean by self-reporting to CPS?

I call the child abuse hotline and report myself to CPS each time there's an allegation. At the start, there were full-on investigations. Now I've got it down to a 30-minute conversation with a social worker and an exchange of exonerating evidence. Each time I point out the mental health problems and the impact. CPS told me if this continues they'll recommend a change in custody to the court since there is clearly something wrong with the situation.

[alleyesonme]

I call the child abuse hotline and report myself to CPS each time there's an allegation. At the start, there were full-on investigations. Now I've got it down to a 30-minute conversation with a social worker and an exchange of exonerating evidence. Each time I point out the mental health problems and the impact. CPS told me if this continues they'll recommend a change in custody to the court since there is clearly something wrong with the situation.

Interesting. If you don't mind me asking, what have the allegations been and what sort of exonerating evidence did you have? I ask because in our situation, it's more her word against mine where she's inventing stuff that never happened.

[BigOof]

What have the allegations been and what sort of exonerating evidence did you have? I ask because in our situation, it's more her word against mine where she's inventing stuff that never happened.

Same boat, alleyesonme. The usual lies: child sexual abuse, DV multiple times, neglect, sexual assault, rape, & financial abuse.

If she's inventing stuff that never happened, all you need to do is record everything. And I mean everything:

https://www.google.com/search?q=body+cameras

P.S. You also need to act perfectly yourself.

[redpoppy]

Alleyesonme:
My lawyer (the one who comes with good recommendations and that I intend to retain) said physical abuse against me does not deter the other parent from having the child 50/50 (or even more). I am a woman in a conservative state (where I would assume the courts would favor mothers) and I was told there is no guarantee I would have my child more.
As far as emotional abuse goes, it is clearly against the interests of the child, whether it's directed at you or the child. But it's nearly impossible to prove, especially when your BPD partner is skilled at blaming you for everything and projecting all their faults onto you. Mine will even write texts that make me look bad out of the blue.
Our 6yo child has developed behavioral problems and is in play therapy. But I am not too hopeful that the therapist will be able to see which parent causes the problems.
My child has told me they want me to move out of the family house and bring them with me. But also told me to leave before. Child is angry with the BPD parent and curses at/hits him, but has also done these things to me. A book I read said when a child is angry at the aggressive or abusive parent, she may take it out on the other parent, because it doesn't feel safe to express her anger at the aggressive parent.

[alleyesonme]

Same boat, alleyesonme. The usual lies: child sexual abuse, DV multiple times, neglect, sexual assault, rape, & financial abuse.

If she's inventing stuff that never happened, all you need to do is record everything. And I mean everything:

https://www.google.com/search?q=body+cameras

P.S. You also need to act perfectly yourself.

Thank you for the tips. I'll look into the body camera. The issue with us is that most of her allegations are for things I allegedly did in the past either during the marriage or earlier during the divorce process, and I didn't even find out about the allegations until the last 2-3 months. So when you turn yourself in, do you just hand over the body camera so CPD can verify that you're telling the truth?

[alleyesonme]

Alleyesonme:
My lawyer (the one who comes with good recommendations and that I intend to retain) said physical abuse against me does not deter the other parent from having the child 50/50 (or even more). I am a woman in a conservative state (where I would assume the courts would favor mothers) and I was told there is no guarantee I would have my child more.
As far as emotional abuse goes, it is clearly against the interests of the child, whether it's directed at you or the child. But it's nearly impossible to prove, especially when your BPD partner is skilled at blaming you for everything and projecting all their faults onto you. Mine will even write texts that make me look bad out of the blue.
Our 6yo child has developed behavioral problems and is in play therapy. But I am not too hopeful that the therapist will be able to see which parent causes the problems.
My child has told me they want me to move out of the family house and bring them with me. But also told me to leave before. Child is angry with the BPD parent and curses at/hits him, but has also done these things to me. A book I read said when a child is angry at the aggressive or abusive parent, she may take it out on the other parent, because it doesn't feel safe to express her anger at the aggressive parent.

Thank you for sharing what you've experienced. I'm sorry you've been through that. That's sad that that's the case. Has the physical abuse taken place in front of your child, or when it's just you and your husband?

[redpoppy]

Has the physical abuse taken place in front of your child, or when it's just you and your husband?

A few incidents in the child's presence, but she was like 3 yo at the time. Recently it's more covert.