Is it just BPD or is it NPD too?

[LDRStrugglebus]

Hello,

I have a uBPDbf and lately I've been wondering if it's more than just that. BPD on its own is already a heavy burden, but sometimes he can be really cruel and hurtful beyond the bottomless borderline rage. He just ran out of meds and he's traveling for work. We got into a disagreement and he totally went off the deep end on me. Now he's pissed about something not even related to our original argument and at its core it seems like a unending need for validation that I don't know if I'll ever be able to fulfill.

He THRIVES on attention and always wants to be at the center of it. Whenever we go out in big crowds, I can always see his eyes scanning the crowd when he puts himself out there (dancing, passing drinks, etc). Whenever we argue, he loves to talk about how much attention he gets. How much people adore him. How often he gets hit on (though really sometimes a compliment is just a compliment but whatever). And he loves throwing it in my face, saying that he's just being "transparent".

This is so incredibly hurtful and I think it's ridiculous. Of course people think he's the "life of the party". Right now he's telling me he might not even come home (even though we made travel plans at the end of the week) because maybe he just "wants to do me" and people there love him so much. I am just flabbergasted that he takes this "adoration" so much to heart even though most people would know that it's shallow and not particularly meaningful.

He is so unstable right now because he's off his meds, but because he's also a quiet borderline he can hide that part pretty well and only I have to deal with his bullshizz. He has a way of making me feel so worthless. Like I'm a total failure in life. He laments about how he has his whole life together but I don't and how he's frustrated that he has to wait for me (mind you I have a full-time job, pay for my own apartment & bills that I don't share with any roommates, take care of myself (always have my hair, makeup, nails done and I'm fairly fit), graduate degree, good relationship with my family, enough savings to look at buying my own home). Yet for some reason he has this sense of entitlement. He had to pull himself up from a rough childhood and because I'm not living up to whatever impossible standard he has in his head, it's a personal attack on him. He's so passive-aggressive and can be such a hypocrite.

Do these sound like narcissistic personality traits?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[LDRStrugglebus]

Also he said another really hurtful thing the other day. About how although there's a part of him that remembers and longs for the loving stability of our family, being away also reminds him how fun it is to not have any responsibility.

Are you kidding me? Of course it's fun. If I could go away on a business trip and not have to deal with my daily responsibilities. Of course it's easier.

Some of this ties into the traditional gender role dynamics, but I feel really unappreciated sometimes. We're long distance-ish (3 hours away by car), and he often makes the drive because I care for our 2 dogs full time and it's a pain to pack all their things and shuttle them around. I also do all the shopping and cooking for us and pay my own bills 100% and never ask him for money. If anything, my cost of living has somehow gone up since we've been together. He also asks me to do random things for him (that I usually don't mind doing), but sometimes it feels like he thinks his time is more valuable than mine.

But of course, it's always about him. How he feels underappreciated by me. How he makes all the sacrifices in our relationship. Yet, he's always quick to criticize me but then wonders why my self confidence has taken a dip (he wishes I was a famous instagram model and this is a big topic of argument).

Should I give up trying to grovel? I feel like I'm not the same as I used to be. I've had to throw all pride out the window and beg him to forgive me for things that I don't necessarily agree with. I feel castrated. Lower than a worm. I'm exhausted from overthinking & trying not to make him angry. Our arguments always end up circular and go nowhere (which he blames on me). He lacks object constancy which I think is one of the reasons why we always fight when he has to travel for work.

[Cat Familiar]

Personality disorders can be very fluid. It does sound like he has a lot of NPD traits.

I think your focus should be on how you let his words and actions make you “feel worthless”. How are you allowing this to happen?

[LDRStrugglebus]

Hi Cat,

I think it makes me feel worthless because I feel like my opinions don't hold any value to him. He likes to constantly tell me that I'm "hardheaded". I agree that I can be stubborn sometimes, but this also happens when I don't want to do the thing he suggested or I have a differing idea. I think it's a very hypocritical statement and that he's just as, if not more, stubborn than I am because he wants things done in a certain way. I have had to learn how to disregard all my defense mechanisms in order to not make things worse. All I can do is apologize, grovel, tell him about how I'm a terrible person with character flaws but please forgive/love me, and wait for him to cycle through the silent treatment, passive-aggressiveness, anger, and pettiness. I don't know if it's just me projecting, but I feel like he enjoys watching me cut myself down. How do I set boundaries without making things worse?

I have cried my little eyes out more times in the year and half we've been together than I have the rest of my life put together. Finding this site has made me feel better about myself. I used to really punish myself internally every time we had a fight, thinking that I was such a terrible person because it was always my fault.

He is currently off the deep end from being off his medication for a few days and it is like speaking to a toddler having a temper tantrum. I don't think we can have any lucid conversations until he gets back (and I offered to send him some but he declined). He is stuck in his head, and every time I think we make a little progress (I've been using SET) he'll just spiral back and repeat the phrase "then why are we here". Maybe my T isn't truthful enough because to be honest, I don't agree with his assessment and the source of his anger. I feel like he's pointing out things that are inherent to my character/personality and asking why I can't change them (as if I must not love him enough because I'm not willing to change). As if he thinks he's soo much more successful than me and he's angry that he has to wait for me to "catch up". Is this the NPD? How do I even respond to that? I want to toot my own horn but I don't know if that will make him more angry.

Also like most BPD, he gets uncomfortable when things are too happy/stable/comfortable and throws a wrench in things to bring chaos. He gets angry with me for enjoying the "comfort" (aka me trying to soak in the peace in between blowouts). I get that he wants to keep growing himself, but how do I explain to him that it's okay to enjoy the fruits of his labor sometimes too?

[Cat Familiar]

How has groveling and apologizing worked?

Since pwBPD feel inherently defective and have strong feelings of shame and self-loathing, as do even people with NPD (though they usually project that upon others), you are not doing yourself any favors in the relationship by voluntarily assuming a secondary position. Sometimes a little arrogance is very useful with a pwBPD. They are less likely to try and intimidate you if they know you’re not easily undercut.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi LDR-

I’m sorry that you’re going through all of this and I have to say that sadly, I truly understand.  I wish I didn’t.

Almost two years ago I let the 6.5 year relationship with my BPD/NPD bf end.  Finally...

I found this site 3.5 years into our relationship.  After being on this forum for maybe a year or so, I realized his cruelty had to be more than “just” BPD, but it took me a while to figure out what the “more than” was.  And then I think it was here that another member mentioned “Dr. Ramani” as a great source for information on NPD.  I didn’t look then.

I let myself be further abused and worn down to nothing.  He did two things that really woke something up in me- to the point where I finally realized that I respected myself even less than he did.  I was actually scared to be the one to end the relationship, but knew that the next time he went into a RAGE, I would let him leave my home and would NOT allow him to return.  I had to wait several months for that RAGE.

And then that night, I started watching Dr. Ramani’s videos.  And there it all was.  All of it.  I stayed up all night.  Just look up “Dr. Ramani Narcissism” and you’ll find them.  Each video is maybe 12 to 15 minutes long and so worth it.  Watch the ones where she is alone, not with the guy.

My friend, you are worth so much more than your disordered bf says you are.  So MUCH MORE.  All of his criticisms are because of the emptiness inside of him, NOT because of any flaw in you.  I finally came to understand that my exbf is not to be pitied, but is pathetic; and he’s not fragile, he’s just a weak excuse of a “man”.  He is someone I do not want to know.

I hope you have a chance to watch some of the videos.  I’d love to hear your take on them.


Warmly,
Gems

[LDRStrugglebus]

How has groveling and apologizing worked?

Since pwBPD feel inherently defective and have strong feelings of shame and self-loathing, as do even people with NPD (though they usually project that upon others), you are not doing yourself any favors in the relationship by voluntarily assuming a secondary position. Sometimes a little arrogance is very useful with a pwBPD. They are less likely to try and intimidate you if they know you’re not easily undercut.

Groveling/apologizing is definitely a hit or miss. I've already learned that I absolutely can't JADE or else it enrages him even more. I guess I have defaulted to apologizing because what else is left if I can't be mad? But sometimes apologizing makes him mad too and he'll say "I don't want to hear you're sorry AGAIN. I just want you to make it right".

But I agree that it's not doing me any favors, especially if he's  going to be mad regardless. I guess I've always been the person who tries to smooth things over in relationships to avoid conflict, but maybe I should be more confident in myself. I know he hates it when I use "maybe" or "I think" when I talk about things. I have to train myself out of being demure and learn to own my thoughts and actions.

[LDRStrugglebus]

Hi LDR-

I’m sorry that you’re going through all of this and I have to say that sadly, I truly understand.  I wish I didn’t.

Almost two years ago I let the 6.5 year relationship with my BPD/NPD bf end.  Finally...

I found this site 3.5 years into our relationship.  After being on this forum for maybe a year or so, I realized his cruelty had to be more than “just” BPD, but it took me a while to figure out what the “more than” was.  And then I think it was here that another member mentioned “Dr. Ramani” as a great source for information on NPD.  I didn’t look then.

I let myself be further abused and worn down to nothing.  He did two things that really woke something up in me- to the point where I finally realized that I respected myself even less than he did.  I was actually scared to be the one to end the relationship, but knew that the next time he went into a RAGE, I would let him leave my home and would NOT allow him to return.  I had to wait several months for that RAGE.

And then that night, I started watching Dr. Ramani’s videos.  And there it all was.  All of it.  I stayed up all night.  Just look up “Dr. Ramani Narcissism” and you’ll find them.  Each video is maybe 12 to 15 minutes long and so worth it.  Watch the ones where she is alone, not with the guy.

My friend, you are worth so much more than your disordered bf says you are.  So MUCH MORE.  All of his criticisms are because of the emptiness inside of him, NOT because of any flaw in you.  I finally came to understand that my exbf is not to be pitied, but is pathetic; and he’s not fragile, he’s just a weak excuse of a “man”.  He is someone I do not want to know.

I hope you have a chance to watch some of the videos.  I’d love to hear your take on them.


Warmly,
Gems

Hi Gems,

Thank you so much for the recommendation! It's definitely insightful watching Dr. Ramani and helps confirm that there are "more than" BPD traits. I hadn't realized how much overlap there is between BPD and NPD. When he's on his medication and when we're in a good place in our relationship, these NPD traits don't appear (or maybe he only displays the ones similar to BPD and I just chalk it up to that). But as soon as we're fighting, these traits come out as a defense mechanism. Maybe he has to remind himself that even though he feels terrible, no one else (besides me as his "lucky" favorite person) gets to see what a monster he can become and he gets to pretend he's living a happy, blessed, unaffected life.

He LOVES having perks (hotels, car rentals, planes, etc) and I didn't realize that was a narcissist thing until watching some of the videos. He is baffled that I don't seem to be as enthralled by them. I appreciate them I think the same amount any neurotypical person would, but I don't sweat over them or hold them on the same pedestal that he does.

I feel like I'm getting close to the point where I don't know what I would do if he flies into another rage. Is it worth it to my mental health to keep fighting for us? What if we have children? Would he behave the same way with them and would I be able to protect them? Should I suggest he get back into therapy to resolve whatever lingering issues he has with me (that once caused us to "break up" even though we were in contact the entire time)?

[LDRStrugglebus]

An update to my story, he decided to "forgive" me. In dramatic fashion as always, has said that he was going to book the last flight out so he could make it in time for our trip that we had planned weeks ago. But of course, made it seem like he was doing me a huuuuge favor and I OWED him.

He basically said, I have the opportunity to go to X event on Friday and X event on Sunday. These are super exclusive events and are waaay more exciting than going on this trip with you. You're making me make a really tough choice here and this is a BIG ask. What's in it for me?

Frankly I'm kind of insulted. We had already pre-planned this trip and committed to it (with a group of other people) but he's trying to guilt trip me for ruining his "fun". That is so self-centered I can't even put it into words.

It is so selfish to wait until 24 hours before our flight to decide whether or not he would come back. For guilt tripping me for ruining his opportunities for "fun". If he had decided to stay, I think that I would have let it be the end of us. If he picked himself and how "simple and easy being single is" then maybe I would start remembering how easy it was for me too. How I used to not doubt myself or let myself be worn down.

Additionally, he's finishing up a few courses at school to get his degree (which he hadn't been able to afford to attend when he was younger). He has a really successful, well paying job but this is icing on the cake. An opportunity for validation. But honestly it's really tough maintaining his rigorous work schedule, school, and making the 3 hour drive back/forth every week to see me.

Thus, a lot of his school work assignments have fallen to me. He has guilted me into taking on a lot of the work he has to turn into to maintain good grades. When he gets mad at me, he throws a temper tantrum and "quits" school. Then when we get together, he says "I was too mad at you to do any school work. You need to catch me up" as if it's my fault he was being lazy. You weren't so busy when you were out sitting by the pool at your hotel or going to the beach or hiking or meeting up with friends were you?

This is so enraging to me because he gets really angry whenever he perceives me as being lazy or taking the easy way out. Yet he can be so hypocritical and do the same thing, but in his eyes its justified. He gets mad when I say I don't have time to do X Y Z and will list out all the accomplishments he's done. I almost want to suggest that we switch roles so he can see that I'm not just making excuses. Sure he works 50+ hour weeks, but I think school is HIS responsibility to maintain and I'm happy to help where I can but I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of. He's taking courses that I think are absolutely boring and I would never personally choose but now I have to read this stuff that I hate and write essays that mean nothing to me. I already did my time and more so I don't see why I have to do this when he's the one who insists that he's proud of how self-driven/self-made he is. How am I supposed to find time to "grow" myself when he gets to pick and choose what he wants to do and I just have to clean up and take on the monotonous tasks?

How do I bring this up to him without making him angry? If I phrase it wrong, I know he'll see it as me being ungrateful and not appreciating his sacrifices (which admittedly he does work hard to try and make our lives better). How do I ask for appreciation? I take care of him with little appreciation from him and I'm exhausted emotionally.

[LDRStrugglebus]

I finally came to understand that my exbf is not to be pitied, but is pathetic; and he’s not fragile, he’s just a weak excuse of a “man”.  He is someone I do not want to know.

This reminded me of a line from the movie Crazy, Rich, Asians when this amazing successful woman in the movie ended things with her cheating husband "It was never my job to make you feel like a man. I can't make you something you're not."

It's a good reminder that our pwBPD need to do the self-work and that there's nothing we can do if they don't have the drive to fix themselves...

[waverider]

Always keep in mind we cannot change ourselves to fix someone else. When we try we simply move the goalpost, the goal kicker will still try to kick goals, and we simply run out of playing field

We change ourselves to improve OUR lot in life

Boundaries are not to guide others they are to prevent hurtful trespass into our own sanity

BPD and NPD do share common traits, and some may display traits of both, and other disorders. The typical obvious difference between the two is that BPD is often impulsive and reactive to others, where NPD is often more consistent and  often shows a complete indifference to others who simply get in the way of the pwNPDs bigger agenda

[kells76]

Hi LDRStrugglebus;

additionally, he's finishing up a few courses at school to get his degree ... it's really tough maintaining his rigorous work schedule, school, and making the 3 hour drive back/forth every week to see me.

Thus, a lot of his school work assignments have fallen to me. He has guilted me into taking on a lot of the work he has to turn into to maintain good grades. When he gets mad at me, he throws a temper tantrum and "quits" school. Then when we get together, he says "I was too mad at you to do any school work. You need to catch me up" as if it's my fault he was being lazy...

...Sure he works 50+ hour weeks, but I think school is HIS responsibility to maintain and I'm happy to help where I can but I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of. He's taking courses that I think are absolutely boring and I would never personally choose but now I have to read this stuff that I hate and write essays that mean nothing to me. I already did my time and more so I don't see why I have to do this when he's the one who insists that he's proud of how self-driven/self-made he is...

How do I bring this up to him without making him angry? If I phrase it wrong, I know he'll see it as me being ungrateful and not appreciating his sacrifices (which admittedly he does work hard to try and make our lives better). How do I ask for appreciation? I take care of him with little appreciation from him and I'm exhausted emotionally.

So many great questions and observations.

If I put together some of your words that stood out to me, we see:

he's finishing up a few courses at school to get his degree
a lot of his school work assignments have fallen to me
now I have to read this stuff that I hate and write essays that mean nothing to me
I don't see why I have to do this

I wonder if you are feeling a conflict or dissonance inside? I see the mismatch in what you wrote, and I wonder if you see it too, now, highlighted above.

You have to...
and...
You don't see why you have to.

I wonder what you'd advise a friend who told you all of that about her relationship?

[RollerMom75]

My SO also has a big sense of entitlement. I recently had to go back to work FT so I approached him and said that now I’ll be back at work FT, I need some help around the house and I want to have a discussion about how to divide up the chores. HAHA! His reaction was “how dare I ask him to do more/ he values his time and has zero time for these menial tasks. He also said he refuses to help care for my son because that’s not his job. After listening, I said well if you value your time, I suppose the other option is you can pay for a cleaning service.

I reacted by saying. When you refuse to help out more, I feel disrespected because my time is also valuable.

He kept pouting all week and I’ve just left him alone to pout. Then this morning on his own, he woke up early, shoveled snow, took out the garbage and bought milk.

Sometimes I am absolutely gobsmacked at his sense of entitlement, but I’ve figured out how to just let it go.

We’ll see how it goes but I’m prepared to say to him “well since I’m back at work FT and you’re not willing to help or hire someone, I’ll just be purchasing groceries and cooking for my son and myself.

I think I understand what you’re going through. BPD has NPD elements but sometimes I also wonder..:

[Cat Familiar]

I’m struck by the fact that you are doing the work for his degree. Not only is asking you to do this unethical, it’s blatantly abusive. And to call you lazy while you are reading books and writing essays for him 

You are stuck in the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) cycle.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog

[LDRStrugglebus]

Waverider, Kells, and Cat

You all make excellent points. I do feel like the goal posts are always shifting. Just when I think I'm starting to get the hang of things, he throws me for another loop. Tacks on another responsibility that I have to accommodate and yet I never feel like I accomplished anything.

Cognitive dissonance is a great term for it. I do feel like I'm fighting with myself at my core. Making myself agree with his perception of me (which might actually be a projection of his own insecurities?) which doesn't jive with what I've been told by other people around me. For instance, a thing that I get secretly offended by is how he says I never dress up or put in effort. Yet whenever I'm at work or hanging out with friends, I get complimented about my appearance/effort to dress up more often than not. I'm really not trying to toot my own horn here, but I feel like enough people have given me genuine compliments that I can trust my own sense of style. I understand that you can always "do better" but when is enough, enough? What's so wrong about being happy with who I am? Does that make him upset because he's never going to be satisfied with himself?

If I was genuinely dissatisfied with myself I would work my butt off to change things. I think that's why I'm so resistant to doing the things he asks, because like you all have said the motivation has to come from within.

I think I've definitely been through the FOG wringer a few times. I've always been on the independent side, so when I feel him trying to control or manipulate me I get defensive. Which of course I know now to not react to, especially from an emotional place.

After a huge blowout when he finally got back last week, things finally settled back into normalcy somewhat. A couple annoyances happened throughout the week (getting nails in the tires of our two cars) caused some stress but I thought he was processing it okay. When he gets really stressed, he turns into an absolute monster. Verbally and emotionally abuse. Very much Dr. Jekyll into Mr. Hyde. Yet, he seemed mostly okay but maybe quieter & more contemplative than usual.

Then this morning, he has this whole pity party. He isn't driving down to see me & the pups, which I thought he would do since its vday, superbowl, and a pup's birthday to celebrate. I said I could come see him instead. Then he goes "It's not you, it's me. I just feel like I'm not satisified or getting where I want to be. It's been my problem my whole life" and I thought oh wow self-awareness, maybe we're getting somewhere. But alas, after I tried to tell him its okay to slow down and enjoy the fruits of your labor sometimes he said "That's my problem. I am slowing down, so I don't leave you behind. But then I'm reminded that I can easily move on and I don't know"

That really broke my heart. What an incredibly self-centered statement. How the eff am I supposed to respond to that? Sorry you feel like I'm not good enough for you and you feel like I'm weighing you down. Sorry being in a family with me is a drag when you could be out having fun being single?

I know I can't say any of that stuff. Even though I am so angry and so sad. Cognitive dissonance strikes again. He is not a selfISH person, but he is incredibly self-centered. All he can see is his own feelings, his dissatisfactions. What am I supposed to say?

He makes me feel like a burden, like I'm nothing without him. I recognize my own self-worth. I know I can be okay without him. I shouldn't have to be made to doubt my own sense of self. I will never be able to fill his endless void for attention and validation. We have/had the 80% but he will always be looking for that extra 20%. And if we maybe even got close, he would probably be looking for extra credit. How do I tell him that he should go back to therapy to sort out these issues? My heart breaks for him, because at this rate he's never going to be happy.

[LDRStrugglebus]

RollerMom,

I admire that you've been able to take the high road and learn to let go. I don't know if its specific to my SO (probably not) but he can be so petty and unforgiving until he gets his revenge or his ego is satisfied . Male ego + BPD + NPD is a sometimes overwhelming thing to try and overcome.

It's interesting how the mind transforms low self-esteem into a major sense of entitlement. As if the whole world needs to see them and they need to be admired for everything they've had to endure to get to where they are today.

Why is it that they get to decide what they want to do, and that we have to do everything else? I'm sure they want us to succeed with them, but I wonder if that would be the case if we became more "successful" than them.

[LDRStrugglebus]

This has to absolutely be the worst valentines day of my life. My uBPDbf has been mad at me all weekend for absolutely no reason. We didn't get in a fight. I didn't do anything that triggered this. I think he might be stressed out about work and he's blaming me. He even said I'm not mad at you. It's not you, it's me and not feeling like I'm where I want to be (but secretly its your fault).

I'm tired of this. I'm tired of being sad & confused. Instead of having a cheerleader on my side, I feel like I'm dating a combo of my high-expectations parents and a toddler. Nothing is ever good enough. I'm always a disappointment. A failure. I'm tired of the temper tantrums. I'm tired of being an emotional punching bag. I'm tired of never being able to get past the past.

I think I'm ready for a breakup. I'm hoping that he'll finally just do it. I don't think I can do this for the rest of my life.

[CryingGame]

It would be so sad to do that the rest of your life. I'm so sorry about the pain you are in. I send love your way, that you may remember/reclaim your value and worth. That's what I'm working on too.