Help When do you go to the place you have been avoiding?

[Parents! Get help here!]

  this is a long one. - - - - We do not want to kick our daughter out of our home. We know that ultimatums, especially - "get help or else" - trigger abandonment. But how do you encourage a dug-in, completely resistant child to get the help that is offered? Everyone in our family has done time in therapy. Up until this daughter and in particular this condition, we have great relationships with our other three children and they with one another. Great relationships with our ex's and their current partners, celebrating holidays together, and are a rare success story in blended families.

We have been reading and studying and seeing professionals (5) for over a year. Seeking help was our go-to from the moment she was asked to leave college for what was initially diagnosed as a "canibus-induced psychotic break and delusional thought disorder." After physically attacking her boyfriend he dropped her off at our front door. He literally pulled up the car, jumped out and BOLTED across the driveway and into the high school football field across the street from our home. He was as kind and forthcoming as he could be and to preserve his own wellbeing he cut off contact with her. Because this is what healthy people do. They don't corroborate with madness. They leave.

Nothing is working or getting her closer to accepting help. She was seeing a peer mentor and as soon as this young woman started reflecting back the truth to our daughter - DONE!

We know this is still the beginning of the long haul as we read, attend courses, support groups, and listen to other families - but the toxic interactions with her in our home are wearing us down. Her brain is stuck in the BPD loop - It is your fault, you are the devil, you make me want to die, you are bullying me, I am fine, you are the problem.

When we reflect anything back to her she uses the same lines over and over: You are using my words and my vulnerability against me. That is out of context. You are gaslighting me. I'm confused. I'm overwhelmed and shutting you out now. I literally can't hear you now. Get out of my room. Leave me alone.

At one time I could reach her better than her mother and father. But now I have just blended into them. She is even starting to abuse her older sister. They were as close as two could be. We are all on the same page as to what needs to happen for her to get better. Our daughter needs some pre-DBT treatment. The therapists agree she is too dysregulated and disorganized at this time to grasp DBT.

We are grateful that she is not acting out with more dangerous risk-taking behavior, addiction, sex, and self-harm but she is deteriorating nonetheless with what she has at her access. 1.) A serious phone addiction and the fentanyl of social media, and its self-image crushing, garbage. 2.) A completely inverted sleep schedule. She lives like a vampire and dresses like the Unabomber. 3.) A possible budding eating disorder.

Having lost everything; Her college experience at music school, her boyfriend, two jobs, her car, and all of her friends she lives in almost complete isolation in our basement apartment where my son lived before he went off to college. His last words before he got on the plane to leave - "Do not let her get stuck down there. I think it is a bad idea to let her take over that space. It is too comfortable down there and she will get swallowed up in cushy darkness."

Prophetic?  

I have never seen a child with such promise and talent lose everything and every social skill she had. The pandemic began in her and my son's senior year. We witnessed all of our teenagers (my daughter a junior at the time and now at college) and their close friends (because they spent a lot of time on our porch and around our fire pit ) do their damndest to make the best out of that cluster F of a situation for teenagers. They doubled down on personal health and wellbeing: time in nature, exercise, healthy eating, meditating, yoga, and preserving their friend connections in a way that the "parents thought" would stop the spread of covid. Haha on that one. They played music, got together, and talked to us about what they were going through. It was actually (seemingly) a bonding experience for our family.

But for a few fringe girlfriends, every single one of these young adults were not your average teenager. These emotionally intelligent people genuinely adored our daughter as everyone does who knows her. Two of them were bandmates that confessed they put up with her MUCH longer, one going into therapy herself, because our girl is so talented and was the cornerstone of the band. As her life was unraveling at college, friend after friend contacted us out of love and concern for our daughter.

We did our best to listen and reassure them. They all did their best to encourage her to get help and ultimately had to step away from her because of her abusive treatment of them. On occasion, a few still check-in and take her to lunch. But now at 20, they are rightfully moving on with their full lives ahead of them. As our daughter feels abandoned in our basement.

I am the stepmother of this emotionally trapped 20-year-old. She is unofficially diagnosed BPD, with other undiagnosed comorbidities. I am grateful I bonded with her before it all started to unravel. I work in the mental health and wellbeing field and all of the professionals we have seen over the last year and a half agree that our daughter has all but one of the qualifiers for borderline. No attempted suicide or self-harming behaviors. She threatened to jump out of a moving car once and that got her a 3-day hold in the local psych ward. We regret that advice taken as it was incredibly traumatizing for her. She says she has forgiven her parents but it destroyed something we had with her. Dunno. Maybe it is just her BPD that did that.

We have been watching our daughter deteriorate for well over a year now. The top-down approach even when delivered with concern and love just feels like control and domination to her. Empathy repulses her. Support is met with - your love is literally harming me. Sprinkled in truth - she dissolves into tears and then rages - get out of my room.

At what point do you completely leave them alone and let them rot it out?
Does the ultimatum to get help or find another place to live ever work?
 
She thinks we have her trapped in the basement and if we would give her her car back she would have a life. She lost it after three major safety infractions, the last infraction the officer was so concerned about her that he called an ambulance. He was so kind and caring (we live in a small community) and she experienced him within the current BS narrative - "all cops are bastards" and he was abusive and horrible to her. He called her father immediately and was deeply concerned about her mental health so he didn't give her a ticket. His words, "I'm so sorry. I have daughters. I am concerned for her mental health." The EMT technicians said the same - she needs help. Yeah - everyone knows this but her.

She feels like a toddler who desperately needs someone to offer her a loving container for her expressions and take strong leadership. "I hear you. You do not want to leave the park. It is time to go now. Do you want to walk or do you want me to carry you?"
But she is a 20-year-old woman.
We feel utterly helpless and hopeless.

Thanks if you even read a fraction of this.

Bereft in Boulder

[Ehenry]

  this is a long one. - - - - We do not want to kick our daughter out of our home. We know that ultimatums, especially - "get help or else" - trigger abandonment. But how do you encourage a dug-in, completely resistant child to get the help that is offered? Everyone in our family has done time in therapy. Up until this daughter and in particular this condition, we have great relationships with our other three children and they with one another. Great relationships with our ex's and their current partners, celebrating holidays together, and are a rare success story in blended families.

We have been reading and studying and seeing professionals (5) for over a year. Seeking help was our go-to from the moment she was asked to leave college for what was initially diagnosed as a "canibus-induced psychotic break and delusional thought disorder." After physically attacking her boyfriend he dropped her off at our front door. He literally pulled up the car, jumped out and BOLTED across the driveway and into the high school football field across the street from our home. He was as kind and forthcoming as he could be and to preserve his own wellbeing he cut off contact with her. Because this is what healthy people do. They don't corroborate with madness. They leave.

Nothing is working or getting her closer to accepting help. She was seeing a peer mentor and as soon as this young woman started reflecting back the truth to our daughter - DONE!

We know this is still the beginning of the long haul as we read, attend courses, support groups, and listen to other families - but the toxic interactions with her in our home are wearing us down. Her brain is stuck in the BPD loop - It is your fault, you are the devil, you make me want to die, you are bullying me, I am fine, you are the problem.

When we reflect anything back to her she uses the same lines over and over: You are using my words and my vulnerability against me. That is out of context. You are gaslighting me. I'm confused. I'm overwhelmed and shutting you out now. I literally can't hear you now. Get out of my room. Leave me alone.

At one time I could reach her better than her mother and father. But now I have just blended into them. She is even starting to abuse her older sister. They were as close as two could be. We are all on the same page as to what needs to happen for her to get better. Our daughter needs some pre-DBT treatment. The therapists agree she is too dysregulated and disorganized at this time to grasp DBT.

We are grateful that she is not acting out with more dangerous risk-taking behavior, addiction, sex, and self-harm but she is deteriorating nonetheless with what she has at her access. 1.) A serious phone addiction and the fentanyl of social media, and its self-image crushing, garbage. 2.) A completely inverted sleep schedule. She lives like a vampire and dresses like the Unabomber. 3.) A possible budding eating disorder.

Having lost everything; Her college experience at music school, her boyfriend, two jobs, her car, and all of her friends she lives in almost complete isolation in our basement apartment where my son lived before he went off to college. His last words before he got on the plane to leave - "Do not let her get stuck down there. I think it is a bad idea to let her take over that space. It is too comfortable down there and she will get swallowed up in cushy darkness."

Prophetic?  

I have never seen a child with such promise and talent lose everything and every social skill she had. The pandemic began in her and my son's senior year. We witnessed all of our teenagers (my daughter a junior at the time and now at college) and their close friends (because they spent a lot of time on our porch and around our fire pit ) do their damndest to make the best out of that cluster F of a situation for teenagers. They doubled down on personal health and wellbeing: time in nature, exercise, healthy eating, meditating, yoga, and preserving their friend connections in a way that the "parents thought" would stop the spread of covid. Haha on that one. They played music, got together, and talked to us about what they were going through. It was actually (seemingly) a bonding experience for our family.

But for a few fringe girlfriends, every single one of these young adults were not your average teenager. These emotionally intelligent people genuinely adored our daughter as everyone does who knows her. Two of them were bandmates that confessed they put up with her MUCH longer, one going into therapy herself, because our girl is so talented and was the cornerstone of the band. As her life was unraveling at college, friend after friend contacted us out of love and concern for our daughter.

We did our best to listen and reassure them. They all did their best to encourage her to get help and ultimately had to step away from her because of her abusive treatment of them. On occasion, a few still check-in and take her to lunch. But now at 20, they are rightfully moving on with their full lives ahead of them. As our daughter feels abandoned in our basement.

I am the stepmother of this emotionally trapped 20-year-old. She is unofficially diagnosed BPD, with other undiagnosed comorbidities. I am grateful I bonded with her before it all started to unravel. I work in the mental health and wellbeing field and all of the professionals we have seen over the last year and a half agree that our daughter has all but one of the qualifiers for borderline. No attempted suicide or self-harming behaviors. She threatened to jump out of a moving car once and that got her a 3-day hold in the local psych ward. We regret that advice taken as it was incredibly traumatizing for her. She says she has forgiven her parents but it destroyed something we had with her. Dunno. Maybe it is just her BPD that did that.

We have been watching our daughter deteriorate for well over a year now. The top-down approach even when delivered with concern and love just feels like control and domination to her. Empathy repulses her. Support is met with - your love is literally harming me. Sprinkled in truth - she dissolves into tears and then rages - get out of my room.

At what point do you completely leave them alone and let them rot it out?
Does the ultimatum to get help or find another place to live ever work?
 
She thinks we have her trapped in the basement and if we would give her her car back she would have a life. She lost it after three major safety infractions, the last infraction the officer was so concerned about her that he called an ambulance. He was so kind and caring (we live in a small community) and she experienced him within the current BS narrative - "all cops are bastards" and he was abusive and horrible to her. He called her father immediately and was deeply concerned about her mental health so he didn't give her a ticket. His words, "I'm so sorry. I have daughters. I am concerned for her mental health." The EMT technicians said the same - she needs help. Yeah - everyone knows this but her.

She feels like a toddler who desperately needs someone to offer her a loving container for her expressions and take strong leadership. "I hear you. You do not want to leave the park. It is time to go now. Do you want to walk or do you want me to carry you?"
But she is a 20-year-old woman.
We feel utterly helpless and hopeless.

Thanks if you even read a fraction of this.

Bereft in Boulder

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[zachira]

I apologize for my brief reply. You might want to learn about Motivational Interviewing techniques which teach skills about how to work with people who have no motivation. It has been used for decades as a key part of successful treatment models for drug addicts and alcholics, and now is used in many fields, including health and wellness.
It is so painful when we have a disordered close family member we can't help no matter what we do.

[Sancho]

Hi Ehenry
I have read your post a few times now - I even wrote a long reply, and thought I had posted it and closed out!

Dealing with a loved child with BPD is filled with frustration, anxiety and quite often a feeling of despair. This is especially so when a young person, full of promise with their life ahead of them seems to hit a brick wall and try what you may, they resist any attempt to help them get back on track.

The cannabis issue is something I am familiar with. My dd has been a heavy user for many years - she has also used hard drugs such as ice (which made the bpd symptoms much worse) but it is the cannabis that she is addicted to.

Since your dd doesn't have access to a car now, does this mean that she has been without cannabis for a while?

My dd was an anxious, wound up child who always had trouble going to sleep. She also had a 'nervous' stomach - or perhaps even a sensory processing disorder - in any case she struggled to eat in the morning and was very particular about what she ate.

Cannabis changed all that - in particular the getting to sleep. When she doesn't have cannabis she can't get to sleep, so is awake all night, asleep all day.

My dd is also lost without a car. I think the tension builds up inside and 'going' helps release the tension. Even knowing that once or twice a week is 'going out' time seems to make a difference - the rest of the time my dd is in her darkened room.

The tension and sense of urgency builds up when you are living in a home with someone in a room somewhere and there seems to be no way of helping them find a new pathway.

I have had a few thoughts that I will put down - but they are only my thoughts and I know from experience that only the people in the middle of it all can know what is possible or not.

First of all I don't think this is the time to give an ultimatum. Your dd is still young and has a lot of potential from what you say and she doesn't sound like she is in a state to be able to take responsibility for herself as yet - just my opinion.

One thing I discovered in my journey was that my dd absorbed my anxiety- even when I wasn't saying anything - and it just loaded her down more.

I think if I had my time again I would have set a couple of boundaries (for me it would have been no one else staying and no one brings any animals to my place). I went through a lot of things like when we were having a 'good' day getting her to agree to seeing someone, setting up an appointment - which dd then didn't keep. I found all this so stressful.

The car thing could be a carrot? Would it work to say you understand how important driving is for her and would she be willing to work on sorting out what she needs to do to be a safe driver.

I am wondering if the cannabis has induced some form of schizophrenia? it is known that there is a connection between cannabis use and this health condition in vulnerable people. My dd started using cannabis quite young and I remember her saying she was hearing voices  - yes alarming!

Young people know we are anxious to 'make them better' and they also know what we approve of and what we don't approve of. They become reluctant to just talk because we won't be able to hide our disapproval, or we will focus on a solution.

It sounds as though you are pretty skilled at listening as a family - and you access help and information so very well. I do think though that when you are close to someone who is going through what your dd is going through at the moment it can be hard to let go (which might mean accepting a whole range of possibilities) and listen.

Sorry for the ramble! I don't think I am much help here, except to say I really appreciate the difficulty of your situation.

[wannabeamomma]

Like you, I thought I was helping my 26 year old son by letting him return home so he could go to therapy. He was grateful and happy because just after graduating with a college degree Covid hit and he was struggling immensely.
Shortly after returning he rarely went to therapy and got mad at the therapist. At first, his dad (my ex) was the bad guy (definitely emotionally and physically abused him) and I was still the good guy until about a month into therapy. Then it flipped and he blamed me for everything-even giving birth to him. Said I was abusive and neglectful.  Not true.
The pattern started. Smoking/vaping all day. Playing video games. Rages. Threats of suicide (over the most minor events) and claims of self mutilating (although he refused to show me any wounds).  Only nice as long as we placated him. We were miserable and the stress landed my h in the hospital.
Two therapists, including his, said we must set rules as to how long he had to get a part time job and taking care of his own needs (i.e. grocery shopping.) his therapist pointed out that if he couldn’t function he needed to be on disability.
When I finally got the courage to follow through he was furious.  Said no way he could work part time AND go to therapy (even though he quit and wasn’t even going at that point.) Tells me he knows what he needs and I don’t care about him cause I’m listening to therapists who don’t know him.
Stuck to the rules even though I had strong doubts I was doing the right thing. Our relationship deteriorated. He was usually angry and sarcastic and very contemptuous. BUT he started his own personal training business (which is thriving) and got his own apartment. Since then no response to my texts and only contacts me when he needs help.
Cry a lot but have accepted that my once thriving and loving child hates me. He will never be happy but I now realize that nothing I can do can fix him.
No ultimatums are necessary. Just set goals and time frames. We have agreed to help him financially until the end of the year to help him get his business off the ground. So didn’t cut him off but are trying to wean him off. You can tailor how you get your child to be self sufficient but unless you do something you will be forever trapped and your child will be stuck.