Beyond BPD

[Depression = 72% of members]

I’m beginning to wonder if a lot of us are dealing with families who have a complete clusterf of Cluster B personality disorders, including ASPD.

The kind of hostility that is regularly on display in my family is consistent with the description of ASPD below. People in my family do not even deny that their behavior is intentionally hurtful — they just tell you either that you deserve it and that (these are direct quotes) ‘you brought it upon yourself’, ‘left me with no choice’, or that they know what they’re doing is wrong but that they ‘just can’t help it’.

But I’m not sure how much the diagnosis really matters, but I think it is probably important for us to acknowledge that we are dealing with exceptionally hostile people, and take steps to protect ourselves. NC is probably the only realistic option when there’s ASPD in the mix.

Hostility: People with ASPD and BPD will get inordinately angry over minor slights. People with ASPD tend to lash out with consciously cruel and hostile acts, while those with BPD remain persistently angry and may engage in self-harm.

https://www.verywellmind.com/antisocial-personality-disorder-p2-425417

[Couscous]

I’m beginning to wonder if a lot of us are dealing with families who have a complete clusterf of Cluster B personality disorders, including ASPD.

The kind of hostility that is regularly on display in my family is consistent with the description of ASPD below. People in my family do not even deny that their behavior is intentionally hurtful — they just tell you either that you deserve it and that (these are direct quotes) ‘you brought it upon yourself’, ‘left me with no choice’, or that they know what they’re doing is wrong but that they ‘just can’t help it’.

But I’m not sure how much the diagnosis really matters, but I think it is probably important for us to acknowledge that we are dealing with exceptionally hostile people, and take steps to protect ourselves. NC is probably the only realistic option when there’s ASPD in the mix.

Hostility: People with ASPD and BPD will get inordinately angry over minor slights. People with ASPD tend to lash out with consciously cruel and hostile acts, while those with BPD remain persistently angry and may engage in self-harm.

https://www.verywellmind.com/antisocial-personality-disorder-p2-425417

[cleotokos]

I do think you’re right. The more I learn about cluster B, the more I’m convinced I’m surrounded by it. Does the diagnosis really matter? Cluster B is a spectrum. I’ve been listening to/reading a lot of Sam Vaknin. Trauma is the root of all of them. That doesn’t mean you have to put up with it though.

I also have come to believe it may be more prevalent than we acknowledge. Many cluster B people aren’t severe enough to encounter the law and will never see the inside of a therapists office. So they’re not “counted”. Many people have cluster B traits that wouldn’t be enough for a diagnosis. I am appalled at how many appear to be in my family. First I thought it was just my mother. Then my stepmother, my father, my stepsister, my husband. Is it possible I’m surrounded by them? Or am I crazy?

[Turkish]

Dysfunctional runs in families, is that surprising? The most differentiated individuals tend to be targets of being scapegoats. Family Systems adjust (triangulate) in order to maintain equilibrium, functional or not.  

I used to play a game with my long-time co-worker and buddy:

"Look around the cafeteria and pick 100 people. Almost 30% have clinical level mental illnesses. 1% are ASPD. 1% are NPD. 3-6% are BPD (depending upon the literature), and that doesn't account for those 'sub-clinical' whom we might just term as 'difficult.'"

Here's an excerpt from our Library. The whole discussion (click on the quote link, the "More Info" is another break-out discussion) is worth a read:

A difficult thing about "PDs" in general, and specifically about this PD, is understanding where the line of pathology is drawn - which is higher than most think - this term gets kicked around pretty liberally on message boards.  There are some websites out there droning on about malignant narcissistic husbands and fathers -- but this term, which was coined in 1964 by social psychologist Erich Fromm, is meant to describe "severe mental sickness" representing "the quintessence of evil". He characterized the condition as "the most severe pathology and the root of the most vicious destructiveness and inhumanity" -- basically the likes of Josef Stalin, Saddam Hussein, and Adolf Hitler.
 
There is a difference between "being narcissistic" and having NPD and a "malignant narcissistic".
 
This is not to suggest that there are not narcissists or NPD personality types. There are -- and NPD tendencies/traits may better describe your loved one than BPD tendencies.  It is to say that that making a dual diagnosis may be more confusing than helpful for your purposes.
 
The two criteria often cited at bpdfamily as "NPD" are "lack of empathy" and "portray a perfect image to others" (e.g., acting like mother of the year in public events with the family).  Both of these issues may just very well be accounted for in the definition of borderline personality.  Empathy is key criteria in the diagnosis of BPD -- in the DSM-5 it will be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).  Mirroring (lack of identity, self-direction) could explains the false image portrayal.
 
The overlap of the PD descriptions in the DSM IV are not all that neat and tidy. In a 2008 study, the comorbidity of BPD with another personality disorder was very high at 74% (77% for men, 72% for women).  They attempted to fix this is the DSM-5.0 (2013) but the solution was tabled and will be studied further.
 

Comorbid w/BPD--------------  Paranoid  Schizoid  Schizotypal  Antisocial  Histrionic  Narcissistic  Avoidant  Dependent  OCD  More info

Men-----------  17%  11%  39%  19%  10%  47%  11%   2%   2%

Women-------  25%  14%  35%   9%  10%  32%  16%   4%  24%

[Notwendy]

I think a lot of these types of disorders can have overlapping symptoms and also are spectrum disorders. The "label" we use is helpful in terms of leading us to tools to help deal with the behaviors and I think the tools we learn are useful in a variety of situations.

If abusive behavior is present- then we need to deal with that in what we think is the best way for us.

BPD is the diagnosis that fits my mother the best- she has more of the classic BPD symptoms than the other ones. But she also has NPD and sociopathic traits. Sometimes she's verbally hurtful when she's upset and dissociated but she can also be quite strategic in her manipulations and when she's wanting to be hurtful.

She lies frequently, without any remorse. She actually enjoys it. I have seen her smile a sort of "gotcha" smile when she sees she has been successful at it with me. If she asks for something, there's often a hidden agenda- that she will manipulate you in steps to get. So she'll ask for something that seems easy to accommodate, then ask another. This is strategic on her part. One thing I have learned is to not ever let on that I want something or am attached to something- she uses that information when she's angry or upset.

I don't see where she's ever been remorseful for her behavior. On this basis, I suspect she has some ASPD traits as well. However, she doesn't cross into behavior that is obviously antisocial or law breaking. It's more lying, and being emotionally/verbally abusive. That's hard enough to deal with but even with this, she seems to have limits to keep this under most people's radar.

I read an interesting book "The Psychopath Next Door" about people who don't fully outright act like psychopaths but still deliberately do hurtful interpersonal behaviors but this doesn't also include all the BPD behaviors.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I just wanted to offer some other perspective here, based on my experience from recent months.

I had recently a lot of troubles with my in-laws. I started seeing a lot of narcissistic tendencies, some blatant disrespect for my rules and my values, they didn't seem to care nor listen to me. Our relationship was all wrong... And then, with the help of my therapist, I switched my views toward myself and looked within... I realized that I kept looking for constant validation, that everytime I opened up about myself, I was immediately triggered by an immense feeling of shame which rendered me incredibly sensitive. Nothing wrong with being sensitive, but with the help of my therapist, I started questioning my own vision of the world and how my trauma had affected me.

Having a BPD mother made me incredibly mefiant and defiant of people, of authority. I see everything wrong in others, and while I am highly critical of myself too, it seems I fell into this idea that people ought to be perfect or else they were dangerous, and I started holding them up to very high expectations (me too actually, which just increased my anxiety and made me even more sensitive).

So I tried something new... I started asking them questions about themselves (my in-laws), I started paying attention to their needs ... And interestingly enough : they started doing the same. As it turns out, they are not narcissists, nor even self-centered, but they were used and raised as co-dependants and they are looking, like I was, for external validation a lot.

From my perspective : it came accross as rude and invalidating and truthfully disrespectful. The thing is : I was also being rude, invalidating and disrespectful TO THEM. The weight I carry, from my mother trauma, made it incredibly hard for me to see others, despite my capacity for empathy... I learned to feel persecuted by everyone, and without meaning to and because of my own inner fear, I was acting in a way to keep people at bay. I didn't feel like I was rude to anyone, but sometimes, the disrespect is not directly told : it is from a glance, a look, a tone of voice, cutting a sentence with a face... People reacted to those, rendering them hostile, and we are rarely aware ourselves of what we are doing... I was unwillingly creating around me what I felt the world was.

At this point, I decided to try and open up, to try and trust the world a bit more, unless my gut told me otherwise (some people we just know are not safe to be too close to, others are just hurt and mefiant like us). I now enjoy asking questions about other's in a genuine manner. I confronted my own narcissistic tendencies, which I developped from years of constant neglect and invalidation from my parents.

I am actively working on stopping myself from seeing persecution everywhere, but instead to uphold my own boundaries, and to try and validate myself. It is incredibly hard at times, but so far, I've been rewarded with a strong increase in my feeling of security within the world. Those people, PD or not, cannot affect me more than I let them, and whether they have a PD or not now seems irrelevant to my own feeling of safety. Which is, sadly, not possible with my mother because of the constant triggers and proximity, ingrained in my terrorized inner child.

There is a lot of dysfunction in my family too. I see their dysfunction, how wild they are, different from me at times... But I also see their pain, their need to feel heard and validated, because they were all abused...  We all come from the same diseased tree, but I do believe most people can heal.

Some deeply traumatized children can appear hostile, but once we deepen our look, sometimes magic happens and they show you their real self..

And so... I also think we have to be cautious before assuming it is a PD. Of course, I am also not saying this isn't the case in your family Couscous. I am just realizing that we live in a society who has access to an incredible amount of knowledge online, and it makes it easy to think ourselves experts... I think that, in the world we live in right now, with the technology we have, the thing we have to be most cautious about are our own bias, which risk closing up a world of possibilities and truths by trapping us in echoe chambers. Our technological world pushes us out of ourselves, when safety can only be acquired within.

[Couscous]

The "label" we use is helpful in terms of leading us to tools to help deal with the behaviors and I think the tools we learn are useful in a variety of situations.

Unfortunately in my case the tools have not been useful with my family and, if anything, have even made things worse. For me the label helps me to fully let go the magical thinking I have had, and that I have some control of the situation, ans denial if I just try harder and do enough JADEing, BIFFing, etc., etc., that this will magically undo generations of family dysfunction. Clearly I still have a Hero Child complex… :/

[Couscous]

And so... I also think we have to be cautious before assuming it is a PD.

I hear you Riverwolf,  and my problem is that I have had way too much empathy for my family, especially my siblings. I have actually spent the past two years trying to rule out the possibility that it could really be a PD, because this was my worst nightmare come true, and I desperately wanted to believe that it was ‘merely’ complex PTSD. In fact, it was when I stumbled upon one of Marshall Rosenberg’s workshops on YouTube that I started on the path of recovery, and I was SO excited as I felt that if we could all start using NVC we would turn our family around. Well, that is not what happened…in fact, my using NVC is what pushed my family over the edge. They could not stand it when I would try to use NVC with them and accused me of having a “Jesus complex”.

It seems like I have to be willing to accept the truth - which is that my family’s behavior is absolutely toxic - otherwise I will continue to strap on my “giraffe ears”, turn the other cheek, give them another chance, and go back into the lion’s den only to get ripped to shreds, every.single.time. This is tantamount to self-abuse.

I fully believe that their behavior is a “tragic and suicidal expression of an unmet need”, and so I must now leave them in God’s hands.

When I was 10 years old my mother gave me a gift of a little change purse with the phrase, “Let go and let God”. Little did she know just how prescient she was about this, and I think I am finally ready to do just that.



 

[Notwendy]

With someone with NPD- ASPD, using something like non violent communication and turning the other cheek would make you a sitting duck for their abuse.

Staying neutral and non reactive would be more like not throwing it back at them but keeping your own defenses solid.

Being ethical is about being true to ourselves- whether or not they recognize it.

But if you jump in a den of lions, the lions will eat you. There's no ethics involved on their part. Lions aren't choosing to be good or bad. They are just being exactly who they are. Lions doing what lions do.

If your family is toxic and you've done all you can to try to reason with them, and it doesn't work, then you need to keep yourself self.

[WalkbyFaith]

So interesting that you posted this, Couscous -- I was just getting ready to come on and post my own thoughts about the dysfunction throughout my FOO. I have been processing a lot lately about the behavior of my siblings and father, not just my uBPD mom.

Sibling 1 - told me they have no desire to have a relationship with me, until I "stop hating mom" and "take responsibility for the way I've treated everyone," whatever that means. Incredibly enmeshed with my mom and completely believes she is the victim in everything.

Sibling 2 - stopped speaking to me several years ago and I have no idea why, but I'm told by other family members that it's because a) I moved away and didn't make enough effort to maintain the relationship, and b) she has trust issues and can't handle people she loves leaving her (but it's not her fault of course).

Sibling 3 - I always thought this one was more like me, and might get away from the dysfunctional family like I did, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Have seen recently how enmeshed they are and how brainwashed into believing mom's victim story. This sibling recently has been "tattling" on me to mom (running back to mom to relay everything I've said in conversation) AND telling complete lies about me, telling mom I said things that I've never even thought,much less said.

Dad - keeps his head down, does his job, and does whatever he can to keep mom happy.

I've been wondering too, if there are other PD's in this household, or if it's all just spin-off effects of living with my mom who is uBPD and possibly bipolar.

[Couscous]

Walkbyfaith,

I could have posted what you wrote about your siblings with only minor changes. We must belong to the same family!  

What's your sibling position?

[WalkbyFaith]

Couscous - wow, that's wild!
I am the oldest. You?

[Riv3rW0lf]

It seems like I have to be willing to accept the truth - which is that my family’s behavior is absolutely toxic - otherwise I will continue to strap on my “giraffe ears”, turn the other cheek, give them another chance, and go back into the lion’s den only to get ripped to shreds, every.single.time. This is tantamount to self-abuse.
 

Ho yeah absolutely. PD or not, when it's highly dysfunctional and when relatives are keeping you from being yourself, from finding yourself really and being the best you there is, then I think it is paramount to protect yourself and your family by leaving the dysfunction.

I think my post was more about ... People in general, or extended family. How I, myself, realized I was projecting a lot of things and overanalysing every little moves in order to keep me safe really, but to a point where it became unhealthy.

I am pretty sure my mother has BPD. But I decided to stop trying to diagnose my brothers. For a while I thought one is BPD and bipolar, while the other might be a communal narcissist... But then I realized it is irrelevant in my healing journey. What I truly needed was to emotionally detach myself from them too. But I get the trying to understand, to label in order to decrease the confusion... It helps to rationally understand it to get us to radical acceptance.

One of my brothers doesn't talk to me anymore. He is enmeshed with our mother and since her and I are not talking anymore, he has reduce contact more and more...and I'd be lying if so said this didn't feel good. I feel better with him away from me too... Same for the oldest. His role was always to protect our mother and that's what he keeps doing. I think I can maintain a relationship with him as long as we don't discuss her... But in all truth : we are so very different that I don't see how we could ever be close anyway...he believes you can generate electricity just with your body and spirit, and he does exorcisms for a living...and I am in natural sciences. So our conversations are a bit limited.

But yeah... I've reconnected with an aunt yesterday, and my cousin... I discussed a bit about my mother with my aunt and I hadn't said much when she became highly emotional. She recalled calling our house, and my brother answering that my mother had gone to party and get drunk. And her eyes filled with tears when she said that I wasn't even 5 years old. And she recalled all the men that came and went in our house... And it truly felt good to be seen by a family member, that knew my history. And how she tried to get my mother back on track but was powerless.

Thankfully, I found some healthy relatives. And I hope you have some extended family that is healthy and if you don't, then I hope you will be this healthy individual that they can find whenever they are ready to heal and move past the abuse.

It is strange to realize the level of dysfunction we have been through ain't it... And how it was normal to us for so very long! But yeah... PD or not, after all the abuse, when nothing works, I think our first duty has to be to ourselves, to our children, to our partner, to our chosen family.

[Couscous]

Couscous - wow, that's wild!
I am the oldest. You?

Same.

Maybe enmeshed families have a common ancestor. Perhaps it's some kind of genetic mutation... 

[lm1109]

Unfortunately in my case the tools have not been useful with my family and, if anything, have even made things worse. For me the label helps me to fully let go the magical thinking I have had, and that I have some control of the situation, ans denial if I just try harder and do enough JADEing, BIFFing, etc., etc., that this will magically undo generations of family dysfunction.

Same! The magical thinking kept me a victim up until now! I also resonate with having WAY TOO much empathy! It seems that the more "clinical" I see my family's situation...the less I am hurt by the vicious attacks and abuse I endured my whole life. I have to see it as extreme mental illness to not take it personally! Otherwise...I'd spend my whole life trying to make sense out of all of the hurtful nonsense!

[Couscous]

I've reconnected with an aunt yesterday,

What a coincidence, I too just reconnected with my aunt (father's sister) a few days ago. She's not the warmest and fuzziest of people, but she did tell me that I should not at all feel guilty about not wanting to take over my father's business and that he was just trying to guilt trip me, and that he's always been a big guilt tripper, so that was validating for me to hear.  

Your brother sounds a bit like one of my brothers. He recently converted to Russian Orthodoxy and has become quite fanatical. Since I have no interest in Orthodoxy and I now refuse to discuss his grievances against my father and other siblings -- his favorite subject -- we don't really have much to talk about. I guess going forward we will now have distant relationship.