How do we balance being zen caretakers w still feeling control over ourselves?

[Joaquin]

How do we balance being totally zen nonreactive emotional caretakers with still feeling control over ourselves, our bodies, and our reactions? I know what you’re thinking: boundaries. But as I just learned, it’s a lot more complicated than that.

I learned something about myself after having a tough talk with my uBPDw 2 nights ago about emotional limits (see my other recent post for details). For hours last night (the night after the talk)I was feeling a kind of anxiety and inability to ground. The discomfort of the conversation had me feeling on eggshells again after. During this I was thinking about how the night before (right before we had the talk) we were laying in bed and she said “why aren’t you taking care of me??” (Because I wasn’t stroking her hair like usual bc I was nauseated, I think bc of my stress over working g so hard to stay calm and nonreactive 100% of the time) in the way that I’ve learned a fear/instant compliance response. I was also thinking of several recent moments where I was breathing heavy bc of physical discomfort and she reacted strongly and tried to get me to stop bc she interprets it as some deep unhappiness (and I assume potential abandonment) from me. My heavy breathing is a trigger for her, and to protect herself she uses a dysfunctional control and/or blame defense mechanism instead of functional communication (telling me how my breathing is making her feel while also respecting that what I need to do with my body is my choice).

 I eventually realized that I’ve developed some sort of physical anxiety response to feeling a loss of control, like a puppet on a string. The extreme effort I’ve been putting into remaining fully nonreactive and calm no matter what to never trigger her defenses is making me feel a little bit like I did at the worst parts of our relationship when I had to relinquish control of myself completely to her to please her. The way I sat, having to hold her hand 100% of the time while driving even if I needed 2 hands on the wheel for a moment, my words, my affection, she took control of all this, though it’s gotten a lot better over time. The stress and fear I felt during the boundaries talk the prior night brought these feelings up again and the more physical stress I felt in my body, the more I was fearing that the hair stroking moment would play out again later and I would have to just comply, which is still usually what I do. The thought of not having control over that decision and having to comply out of force was killing me and I could feel it in my body. But the boundaries talk was so difficult for me that I felt I have to pick my battles and give in for a while. The resulting tension left me feeling anxious and unable to find my center.

Being around her silence was putting me back into a fear mode where I was just trying to signal to her (through my tone and body language) that I cared and was ready to take care of her instead of connecting to my own feelings and feeling in control of myself and my body. The emotional energy it took to give her love and reassurance during the talk and after made me feel again like my energy isn’t for me.

Does anyone have insights into this balancing act? As partners of pwBPD we have to be emotional caretakers, be nonreactive and extremely mindful, and pick our battles. How do we still maintain our authentic selves and rights to choose how we react, when to give affection, etc knowing those choices may turn into battles that aren’t worth it? I know the short answer is “setting limits/boundaries,” but ironically trying to introduce limits is what triggered this this time. My hope is that when the dust settles from this I’ll feel more control and more secure in my right to own myself, and that my efforts at being this perfectly zen caretaker become second nature so they don’t take so much out of me. Last night I was on no sleep and very little food, so I’m hoping after sleeping/eating/going to the gym today everything will feel easier and more manageable and I’ll feel more in control again.

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[Joaquin]

Small insight update. I’m at the gym listening to old music that helps me feel like me, regaining my sense of self. From this position of greater safety here’s the thought repeating in my mind: TALKING to her about setting limits is different than SETTING limits with her. Difficult talks take a lot out of me bc I have to work so hard to make it safe for her. Talking can cost me. The actual limit setting I was doing before this talk, however, was making me feel stronger and healthier.

 I have to remember that difficult talks will cost me and I’ll have to self care myself back up to strength after. Perhaps after enough time and practice I’ll be able to maintain myself during the talks as well.

[Joaquin]

Another small update from the gym (sorry, I’m using this as a sort of emotional journal in addition to looking for all of your insights and support and validation). I feel some clarity over the tension I was feeling bw being a good nonreactive caretaker and setting limits. It’s the caretaking and commitment to never reacting itself that drains me emotionally. Doesn’t sound like a groundbreaking revelation but I’m seeing it from a new vantage point right now. Identifying the source of the tension gives me a sense of confidence and control in my right to actually set the limits apart from my caretaking commitments.

Also, self reminder that being trapped in the tense home after a tough talk breaks me down and I have to run to the gym and get some distance to recover ASAP. When in doubt, run to the gym!

[thepixies21]

It sounds like you're doing a great job of reflecting on it on your own! I was just going to say that I find that when I'm trying to set a limit, especially when it involves doing something for myself and not for my uBPDh, I have to physically leave the space they're in or I can just FEEL that anger coming off of him and I can't think straight. I take some time to work out or journal (I also I agree that I basically use this forum as a journal...but I really appreciate reading when others do it so I'm hoping my brain dump is helpful for others too), and when I come back I notice that he's either calmer or I feel like I can better deal with his emotions because I have more emotional energy. I've heard it gets easier with time and allowing them to be mad while you focus on calming down your nervous system and hearing your own thoughts, but it's really hard to separate my emotions from his right now, especially when they're strong. I'm not sure if you feel the same way.

[Joaquin]

Thank you pixies. I very much feel the same way. When we’re in the middle of tension from some conflict or difficult talk it feels almost impossible for me to focus on my nervous system and connecting with my emotions bc I can feel her emotions coming off her in waves and I still carry fear over how she might react when I go inward and focus on myself or breathe too heavy or god forbid leave the room. I feel very much on eggshells on those kinds of days, though thankfully they are far less frequent and less consuming than they were earlier in the relationship. I really need to build the confidence to connect with myself when I need to while she’s activated and the tension is thick, but it’s so hard because the repercussions can be huge and I’ve been conditioned to fear them.

[Notwendy]

I think the idea that you have to be the emotional caretaker is a misunderstanding. If we take care of someone else's feelings- that is actually stepping over the line. Each person is responsible for their own feelings- actually, we have no control over someone else's feelings.

Doing things to control someone else's feelings- not being honest about our own wishes, like saying yes when we mean no, just to avoid a conflict, or walking on eggshells- that's being co-dependent.

Being a zen caretaker- focusing on caretaking their feelings while ignoring our own is going to lead to resentment, a lot of resentment. Our feelings are there for a reason- often they clue us in to something. Not feeling them isn't the goal. Controlling them isn't even the goal. Our choice is how we act on them. That is the non reactive part- not how we feel but whether we react in ways that add to the drama or not. The other person will do what they choose, we don't have to participate in the drama.

PwBPD have difficulty managing their own feelings and often, so do their partners. The idea that you can not react to their feelings- it is possible but one needs to work at doing this but it does not mean not having your own feelings.

When you feel upset, angry, resentful, - this is a message from yourself telling you that you need to take care of your feelings. You need to remove yourself from the situation and go calm down. Going to the gym to work out is an excellent idea. Listen to music, ( get some headphones) if you are at home and can't leave.

Sometimes a pwBPD will start drama, maybe not entirely consciously, as a way to release their feelings. Have you noticed that they are calmer after a big blow up and you feel like an emotional shook up mess? They just released their feelings and they feel fine. If you change your part in this dynamics, don't react in the same way, then you don't reinforce this. But it's not about caretaking their feelings- those are theirs, not yours. If you can understand this boundary, it will help you not step into their feelings and focus on yours.

Feelings on your part are a signal to take care of you. When you do this, you will feel more in control of your feelings.

[thankful person]

Joaquin, I completely relate. When I first started this journey to improve things, one liberating thing I found was that I can set boundaries or make assertive choices… without even needing to tell my wife about it. This was how many of the best changes came about. I was in a mess when I got here at bpd family as I wasn’t allowed to take photos of our children or send them to my mother. My wife forbid it. My mother was so upset that I decided to take a stand, but I did this by trying to reason with my wife. When that didn’t work I said one of the bravest sentences of my life, “well I’ve decided I’m going to be taking pictures of the children whenever I want and sending them to my mum whenever I want. I have the right to do that.” Her reaction? “Then our marriage is over.” She really meant it too. It took several months for her to get over it. During this time I found bpd family. I made a mental list of more things to conquer: wearing clothes she didn’t like, putting the children in clothes my mother bought, playing the piano, having showers when I wanted… The advice I got on here, “just do it. It doesn’t need discussion”. I know this is a certain type of issue I was dealing with. But with these things, it just worked. With little discussion I slowly and surely started doing what I wanted. My heart would beat out of my chest as I started to FaceTime my mother without even telling my wife let alone asking her permission. Now I do this regularly without this fear. I love listening to my music in the car. I had been in a relationship with my ex for 15 years before I met my wife and she bullied me into getting rid of all my CD’s when we got together as she was convinced they reminded me of him. Now I got Alexa Echo for my car and I got all my music back. I’m so happy about it. I just don’t tell her. She knows about Alexa just not my extreme happiness haha. She can take my life but never my music. Lock me up and it’ll still be in my head.

[Husband2014]

Thankful person - thank you for sharing

I have an almost identical issue but with my sister instead of my
Mom with my wife. Just curious how long did it take you to reverse that trend and how did you deal with the nonstop smashing they try to beat you down with when you FaceTimed your mother?

[waverider]

Rather than being their emotional caretaker, think of yourself as an assistant in their often fragile attempt to look after their own emotions. If you take over the role it enables their avoidance. Even if they fail their part, then they have to live with and own that failure. You can never fully fulfil it.

pwBPD are validated by processes performed on their behalf, not results of those efforts. eg they like the process of someone saving them, but they don't like to be saved, as in job done. So the goal posts keep moving and the process to save them continues. Sometimes likened to the black hole, you can put everything you have into it and it will never fill. This is why ultimately you can sacrifice everything and be left with nothing yourself, and its still not enough.

[Notwendy]

pwBPD are validated by processes performed on their behalf, not results of those efforts. eg they like the process of someone saving them, but they don't like to be saved, as in job done. So the goal posts keep moving and the process to save them continues. Sometimes likened to the black hole, you can put everything you have into it and it will never fill. This is why ultimately you can sacrifice everything and be left with nothing yourself, and its still not enough.

This is a concise summary of how my BPD mother relates to us. She seems to have a high need for people to do things for her, yet somehow finds something wrong or disappointing with whatever is done. It's not the task she wants done- it's the doing of it and a specific person - the one she wants- has to do it.

We think it's the need expressed- to take out the trash, or go to the store, or do whatever, but since it's an unspoken emotional need, doing the task doesn't seem to meet it.

[thankful person]

I have an almost identical issue but with my sister instead of my
Mom with my wife. Just curious how long did it take you to reverse that trend and how did you deal with the nonstop smashing they try to beat you down with when you FaceTimed your mother?

Hi husband 2014, so the making a stand about the photos was Feb 2021. For the next couple of months my wife said we weren’t together and wouldn’t say she loved me or be physically affectionate in any way. She “forgave” me shortly before our second child was due in May 2021. I’m now seeing a pattern where she “forgives” me before big events and I think it’s partly to do with keeping up appearances to family and online etc. So during that time, I started working on many goals and also identified little things I used to say that put myself down like, “there’s your dinner, I hope it’s ok” etc. With the photos I found my wife got used to this fairly quickly. I used to actually ask permission to share a photo of our baby with my mother! My wife would say, “no” so I didn’t. But when I started doing it without even telling her, it became quite easy, it wasn’t “behind my wife’s back” it was just a normal thing people do. The video calls was harder. My wife was fine during the calls, she didn’t engage with my parents. But afterwards there was always hell to pay, particularly because she was jealous of how much my mother wanted to see the children and talk about them. One of my goals was to video call my parents at least once a month. Meanwhile I was also working on learning to not JADE (still not quite there yet!), and validation and using SET.. By October it was my daughter’s 2nd birthday. And I finally realised my wife was over the whole video call thing. She made one of her usual comments about how there was no time to go swimming because we spent so long opening presents with Granny on call. And I just said, “mmm hmmm” which had become a form of lazy validation. And my wife said nothing more about it. Since then she sometimes makes snarky comments, usually about how there’s no time to do whatever. I just say, “mmm hmmm” I make eye contact with her and try to look like I care. Please do what you can to keep your relationship with your sister strong. I’m sure my brother also has issues with his wife and I miss him. I’m so pleased I made these changes. On my Mum’s birthday this year I rang her and my daughter sang happy birthday Granny for the first time. I was so proud and proud of myself for all my hard work.. I didn’t want my Mum to go to her grave thinking I didn’t love her.I have a much better relationship with her now, I’m even giving her online piano lessons! As for my marriage, still working on that…

[Husband2014]

Tankful person. Thank you so much.  That helps. Curious what’s your feeling about letting your spouse rant about your mother in front the kids.  One of the reasons my body goes into these electric shocks of fear is because my son is 6 and my wife has no problem spewing poison in front of him.  Really scares the life out of me.

[thankful person]

Tankful person. Thank you so much.  That helps. Curious what’s your feeling about letting your spouse rant about your mother in front the kids.  One of the reasons my body goes into these electric shocks of fear is because my son is 6 and my wife has no problem spewing poison in front of him.  Really scares the life out of me.

I’m not quite there yet as my eldest is only 3. At the moment I’m still working on doing what I can to influence my wife not to shout so much. I had a long period of success with this where she actually seemed quite stable but it’s all gone to sh1t since baby 3 arrived. The children have no concept of what our issues are… yet, though I say that tentatively as the correlation between Granny on the phone and then Mummy losing it may be a more obvious pattern than I realise at times. I’m so sorry for what your son has to go through and all bpd family children. Be there for him as best you can. Try not to argue when your wife is like that. Try to validate her feelings. Listen to your boy if he opens up to you, try and make him feel safe. Has he said he’s scared of his mother? My daughter is speech delayed and still babbles lots but she does angry babble shouting to join in with my wife at times. It’s heart breaking.

[LifewithEase]

TALKING to her about setting limits is different than SETTING limits with her.

I have to remember that difficult talks will cost me and I’ll have to self care myself back up to strength after.

Joaquin, this struck me like lightening. I'll add this to some of my guiding words/concepts.

Note to Thankful Person, it wasn't until my exposure to BPD that I was able to understand why my uBPDw wanted me too throw away a shoe book of letters I wrote during college to an old girlfriend when I was young and abroad. The ex gave them back to me because the bulk of the content was my adventures and reflections, worth saving. Yet, the rage was made about respect and holding on to past loves. But this also happened with mementos and artifacts of incredible accomplishments both personal (e.g. climbing a volcano) and professional (e.g. VIP pass to my first VIP event).

[thankful person]

Life with ease, I came back to my home country for my wife, leaving a country I emigrated to with my ex. We had been together 14 years and traveled the world and done so much together. Amongst my stuff was a wooden box it used to be my “tuck box” at boarding school. It is filled with memories of those years. I’m not even allowed to mention his name. So there is so much my wife doesn’t know about my past (her choice). Anyway, the box is at my parents’ house. I couldn’t throw that stuff away.

[Joaquin]

I think the idea that you have to be the emotional caretaker is a misunderstanding. If we take care of someone else's feelings- that is actually stepping over the line. Each person is responsible for their own feelings- actually, we have no control over someone else's feelings.

Doing things to control someone else's feelings- not being honest about our own wishes, like saying yes when we mean no, just to avoid a conflict, or walking on eggshells- that's being co-dependent.

Being a zen caretaker- focusing on caretaking their feelings while ignoring our own is going to lead to resentment, a lot of resentment. Our feelings are there for a reason- often they clue us in to something. Not feeling them isn't the goal. Controlling them isn't even the goal. Our choice is how we act on them. That is the non reactive part- not how we feel but whether we react in ways that add to the drama or not. The other person will do what they choose, we don't have to participate in the drama.

PwBPD have difficulty managing their own feelings and often, so do their partners. The idea that you can not react to their feelings- it is possible but one needs to work at doing this but it does not mean not having your own feelings.

When you feel upset, angry, resentful, - this is a message from yourself telling you that you need to take care of your feelings. You need to remove yourself from the situation and go calm down. Going to the gym to work out is an excellent idea. Listen to music, ( get some headphones) if you are at home and can't leave.

Sometimes a pwBPD will start drama, maybe not entirely consciously, as a way to release their feelings. Have you noticed that they are calmer after a big blow up and you feel like an emotional shook up mess? They just released their feelings and they feel fine. If you change your part in this dynamics, don't react in the same way, then you don't reinforce this. But it's not about caretaking their feelings- those are theirs, not yours. If you can understand this boundary, it will help you not step into their feelings and focus on yours.

Feelings on your part are a signal to take care of you. When you do this, you will feel more in control of your feelings.

Thank you for this, Notwendy (and thank you everyone else for your extremely helpful comments — they mean a lot even if I don’t reply to each one directly). The “emotional caretaker” concept came from an article on this website and honestly it did confuse me a bit, but it’s defined more or less in the way you’re describing as not reacting to them but not being codependent.

Your emphasis of this definitely helped me lean back into confidence in limit setting. I feel I’ve gotten pretty good at not reacting since I posted all this, but last night my wife had a pretty strong reaction to my limit setting and it was a challenge. We were discussing our babysitter’s request for more money, she was characterizing everything in an unfair way imo, and I tried to just balance the facts to make sure we were acknowledging the extra work the sitter did this week. She took that as me taking everyone else’s side etc, basically emotional abandonment or rejection, and her defense of blame came out to give me ownership of her feelings again. I tried to manage the talk calmly while gently maintaining my truth, she got more upset that I’m wronging her. After, I was visibly quiet for 20min or so managing my emotions, trying not to react to the fact that her usual defenses were out again preventing healthy communication. She reacted VERY strongly to my being quiet (she perceives this as me hating her or having deep horrible problems with her) and she kind of blew up and raged over my limit setting, predictably trying to FOG me out of it (“you’ve changed, this isn’t what I need, all you care about is setting your limits you don’t care about me, you keep telling me you love me but it all feels empty now like all that matters is your limits, I need more, I don’t want this, you make me feel like everything is in my head and I can’t have my emotions, etc”). I think I did a decent job of not sponging her emotions and staying firm on my limits while remaining relatively calm and focused and reassuring her of my love.

It was an important reminder that this will be a long and messy process, and the period of calm before it that made me naively think maybe everything is effectively solved is not evidence that these challenges no longer remain.

Does anyone have sample language they use to set this kind of limit without causing a huge scene? I’m anticipating the next time she tries to give me ownership of her feelings over me doing something I need to do. Maybe something like “babe, I love you and this is something I need to do rn. I understand it’s causing you stress, but as we discussed I can’t take ownership of that stress for you.” Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

We were discussing our babysitter’s request for more money, she was characterizing everything in an unfair way imo, and I tried to just balance the facts to make sure we were acknowledging the extra work the sitter did this week. She took that as me taking everyone else’s side etc, basically emotional abandonment or rejection, and her defense of blame came out to give me ownership of her feelings again.



 I tried to manage the talk calmly while gently maintaining my truth, she got more upset that I’m wronging her.

After, I was visibly quiet for 20min or so managing my emotions, trying not to react to the fact that her usual defenses were out again preventing healthy communication.

It was an important reminder that this will be a long and messy process, and the period of calm before it that made me naively think maybe everything is effectively solved is not evidence that these challenges no longer remain.

I think you did well to keep calm. Keep in mind that this is something new for both of you. It takes some time and practice to change these patterns. It can be a bit of trial and error if we persevere with the new behaviors they become easier for us to do.

While the goal is to let the other person manage their own feelings, I think it helps to understand their perspective. For me, the Karpman triangle helps. From my own observations, the person with BPD has a victim perspective and it seems the partner takes rescuer role with them. The other role is persecutor. All roles are a part of dysfunction. I think being aware of this helps.

What happened here is your wife presented the sitter's request for higher pay from victim perspective. The sitter is persecutor. Your expected role is as rescuer- to side with her against the babysitter. You didn't do this, but also your response felt invalidating to your wife and I think this started the conversation down the rabbit hole.

There is the idea of validating the feeling but not the invalid.

Another way might have been wife comes to you saying babysitter is unfair. First, hear her out. Respond- I understand you feel the sitter is unfair to expect more pay. Now, who has the concern about this- your wife, you or both?

The choice is- you agree to the extra money or you don't. If you don't, the sitter may decide to not work for you any more. Each of you have a choice. There's no emotional discussion necessary.

The other question is - can you afford to pay the sitter more? If you can't- then the response is that you are sorry but the higher pay isn't in your budget and then let the sitter choose what to do. Or you can afford it and then the choice is- do you want to.

From your posts it seems you feel the sitter is deserving of the higher pay. The person with the problem with this is your wife. Let her manage her own problem.

"I understand you feel the sitter is being unfair. What do you think we should do?"  Let her deal with it. My guess though, if the sitter is doing a good job, she doesn't really want the sitter to quit. You could then say " You know honey, we can afford it, so if you want to raise her pay, it's fine with me".

Which brings up another thing I have observed with my BPD mother. Often the request or issue she brings up is not the actual one she wants. When I respond to the request - she may get upset. That is confusing because I think I am responding to her request but it isn't the actual one and so, she gets upset. Now, we are not mind readers and it's not my role to guess what she is thinking. But I have learned that if she gets upset, eventually the actual reason becomes clearer, as then it comes out in the angry response.

Your wife may have been asking you for more money for the sitter, but it was in a roundabout way- so that she would not feel responsible for that. I don't think this is deliberate. I think it's a way of protecting from uncomfortable feelings that has been learned.

She's the one with the concern about the sitter's request. Let her come up with a solution. Decide according to your budget.

As to what to say to her when you feel she's expecting you to own her feelings? One idea from 12 step groups that I learned was to only use "I" statements, not "you" and to not respond when we are angry, or tired, or hungry. If we feel upset, we need to be able to be calm when we respond. The response is "I think I need to take a few moments to collect my thoughts, and we can continue this in a bit" . "I need to take a few moments to think about this and will let you know".  Then you disengage for a bit.

[Joaquin]

I think you did well to keep calm. Keep in mind that this is something new for both of you. It takes some time and practice to change these patterns. It can be a bit of trial and error if we persevere with the new behaviors they become easier for us to do.

While the goal is to let the other person manage their own feelings, I think it helps to understand their perspective. For me, the Karpman triangle helps. From my own observations, the person with BPD has a victim perspective and it seems the partner takes rescuer role with them. The other role is persecutor. All roles are a part of dysfunction. I think being aware of this helps.

What happened here is your wife presented the sitter's request for higher pay from victim perspective. The sitter is persecutor. Your expected role is as rescuer- to side with her against the babysitter. You didn't do this, but also your response felt invalidating to your wife and I think this started the conversation down the rabbit hole.

As to what to say to her when you feel she's expecting you to own her feelings? One idea from 12 step groups that I learned was to only use "I" statements, not "you" and to not respond when we are angry, or tired, or hungry. If we feel upset, we need to be able to be calm when we respond. The response is "I think I need to take a few moments to collect my thoughts, and we can continue this in a bit" . "I need to take a few moments to think about this and will let you know".  Then you disengage for a bit.

You nailed it, notWendy. She easily sees others as persecutors and herself as the victim to extremes and has a distorted view of the facts of the situation (selectively emphasizing perceived slights while erasing positives) to justify the anger. Characteristic of BPD. And when I try to empathize with others after she is expressing anger over them she feels I’m invalidating her and abandoning her. We handled the babysitter issue pretty quickly (she agreed with my suggestion that we give her a one time monetary bonus but reiterate that we can only afford the agreed upon rate moving forward), but she was very upset over my decision to explain how the babysitter has done more work this week instead of just validating her anger. She thinks I care too much about others and not enough about her. It quickly became not about the babysitter but rather how she thinks I have all this deep hatred for her (evidenced by my quiet managing my emotions and thoughts) and it snowballed from there.

I held to my limits while not becoming adversarial. I try to stay consistent that I don’t try to argue with her feelings of anger towards others unnecessarily and only make whatever counterpoint to her depiction of the persecutor’s wrongs when it affects our practical lives, as in this case. In other words “I’m not defending others against you, I’m just trying to manage our daily lives as practically and painlessly as possible.”

To her credit, she ended the night by acknowledging my efforts to keep things feeling safe for her, and even better, she woke up this morning without defenses or negativity against me (despite having a long dream where I was trying to kill her) and she has been pretty positive toward me today. It really feels like the combination of remaining nonreactive and caring while holding firm to my need for certain limits to stay healthy myself (NOT to attack or deprive her) is working. Fingers crossed