My lawyer will contact her and I expect trouble but I want to calm her down...

[NorthernCreature]

My bpd wife just gave birth to our daughter and she only allowed me to see her once in 24 days. After that she just blocked me again and I haven't be able to contact her. Naturally, because my baby daughter has a right to see her father, I visited my lawyer. My wife will have a letter in the mailbox in one or two days. Considering the past, I know what will happen next. She will unblock me and start to curse, and eventually tell me that I told my lawyer lies bla bla.

Before birth of our daughter she had a splitting episode again... lots of  mixed signals in her text messages, how she remembers the good times, how good I've been, that she suffers from the breakup too... mixed with the usual old and new false accusations.

With that said, only lunatics like I am will understand... I'd still attempt to reconcile if she would just stick on the white site a little longer than just few text messages. Of course, at the moment I am painted black again... and I guess it'll be blacker than black again as soon as she reads the lawyer letter. She will unblock me for sure then and curse... so, I already have a pre-written text for that situation (laugh)... It's a little bit set-up communication inspired, but just a little bit (My text will be in German, so my English might be a bit strange as this is not my native language)...

I am worried and want to understand you. I see that you're angry, that you're mad at me since quite some time. The truth is that I attemped to reconcile with you since months. I wanted us to stick together again, also for our baby. Without your trust that I've never wanted to be bad to you, and without your support, that is not possible.

It's sad that you don't want to reconcile. But I want you to know that our daughter is very important to me too. I've only seen her once. I want to be there for her and I want to spend time with her too. I can offer you to treat you with respect and be friendly to you as I've always been. But our daughter has a right to meet her father regularly too. I still hope that you think about it again, if the person that has always been there for you, is the one you should punish.

Any suggestions? How should all that continue? As parents we should be a team. I generally wanted to be a team with you, and you said that too. If you still don't want that anymore, we should be at least a team when we co-parent.

Is this set-up communication? I'd like to defuse her possible attack the next days, making her realize that I would still reconcile but at the same time signaling that I will fight for the rights of our daughter (to meet and see both parents regularly). I want to express that I still want to get back together, but if that is not possible, that we do at least co-parent well for our daughter. With the one sentence about being friendly and respectful, I just want her to realize that I am keep being like that despite her treating me the opposite (she has been quite disrespectful).

What do you think about my text? Will this escalate everything further or is it possible that a light goes on if she reads that?  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rev]

What do you think about my text? Will this escalate everything further or is it possible that a light goes on if she reads that?  

Hi Northern...

Don't  have a lot of time at the moment, and then this caught my eye.  Just wanted to say - congratulations on becoming a father. First child?

Second... wow that's a tough situation. Are you coping okay? What's holding you together? Your lawyer, maybe?

As for your text and how she is going to take it ... that's really hit and miss isn't it?

Keep us posted. Hopefully others will check in too.

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[babyducks]

What do you think about my text? Will this escalate everything further or is it possible that a light goes on if she reads that?  

I'll pass along a couple of thoughts for you to take a look at.

First,   I would be careful, very careful about mingling the topic of your relationship status with your parental rights to see your daughter.   I can see you want to keep the door open for a reconciliation but I would suggestion a heaping ton of caution about mixing the two together.   It seems your daughter is already being used as a pawn and you want to do everything in your power to minimize that.

With that in mind I would suggest a couple of edits to what you posted here:

I am worried and want to understand you. I see that you're angry, that you're mad at me since quite some time.

I would suggest not opening with the focus on her being angry or being mad.   this is an invitation for her to explain to you (yet again)  why she is angry, what she is mad about, how she is justified in being mad and this cements her position into place for the remainder of the conversation.   

The truth is that I attemped to reconcile with you since months. I wanted us to stick together, also for our baby. Without your trust that I've never wanted to be bad to you, and without your support, that is not possible. I would like it if we could work together to build trust that we both have good intentions.


Have you heard the phrase "Don't JADE"?    it stands for don't justify, argue, defend or explain.    Especially if this is an old argument where you've covered the same ground multiple times.    Make sense?    in the sentences above you are JADEing.  You are justifying things you believe and defending your behavior - that's a one way road to an argument.   it might be helpful to frame things in a  positive way, not a negative way.  that's why I flipped the last sentence.    remember she will likely share these messages with her legal council if she has one.

It's sad that you don't want to reconcile. It's sad that we are in this situation.
 But I want you to know that our daughter is very important to me too. I've only seen her once. I want to be there for her and I want to spend time with her too. I can offer you to treat you with respect and be friendly to you as I've always been. But our daughter has a right to meet her father regularly too. I still hope that you think about it again, if the person that has always been there for you, is the one you should punish. should be there for our family.

a couple of simple tips.   You wanted to avoid trigger language.    Trigger language are words that are heavy or fraught with meaning.  I'm guessing that Reconcile is a trigger word for you both.   You want it, she doesn't.   You can say the same thing by using different words that aren't loaded with heavy baggage.  Another Trigger Word is the word BUT.   But negates the message that came just before the but.    Simple example.   I know I shouldn't eat that chocolate donut BUT I really want to.    wanna guess if I am going eat the donut or not?       of course I am.   Punish is a trigger word.   Its confrontational.  It's a heavy negative, try flipping it into a positive

I am worried and want to understand you. I see that you're angry, that you're mad at me since quite some time.  I can see that things are heated right now, I am worried and want to have calm constructive talks about this.

Now that you've worked to modify the tone, maybe it's time to set some boundaries about angry texting.   Notice in what I changed above that I didn't say You are Angry.   I said things are heated.   You want to avoid saying anything that sounds like 'we can talk when you are calm'.    it sounds blaming.

Any suggestions? How should all that continue? As parents we should be a team. I generally wanted to be a team with you, and you said that too. If you still don't want that anymore, we should be at least a team when we co-parent.

avoid making any connections between the co-parent relationship and your romantic relationship.   that would be emotionally difficult for anyone to handle.

those are my suggestions.   take the emotional temperature down in the conversation by avoiding JADE.   by avoiding negative or blaming language.   Offer positive sounding solutions.

hope this helps.

'ducks

[SinisterComplex]

My bpd wife just gave birth to our daughter and she only allowed me to see her once in 24 days. After that she just blocked me again and I haven't be able to contact her. Naturally, because my baby daughter has a right to see her father, I visited my lawyer. My wife will have a letter in the mailbox in one or two days. Considering the past, I know what will happen next. She will unblock me and start to curse, and eventually tell me that I told my lawyer lies bla bla.

Before birth of our daughter she had a splitting episode again... lots of  mixed signals in her text messages, how she remembers the good times, how good I've been, that she suffers from the breakup too... mixed with the usual old and new false accusations.

With that said, only lunatics like I am will understand... I'd still attempt to reconcile if she would just stick on the white site a little longer than just few text messages. Of course, at the moment I am painted black again... and I guess it'll be blacker than black again as soon as she reads the lawyer letter. She will unblock me for sure then and curse... so, I already have a pre-written text for that situation (laugh)... It's a little bit set-up communication inspired, but just a little bit (My text will be in German, so my English might be a bit strange as this is not my native language)...

Is this set-up communication? I'd like to defuse her possible attack the next days, making her realize that I would still reconcile but at the same time signaling that I will fight for the rights of our daughter (to meet and see both parents regularly). I want to express that I still want to get back together, but if that is not possible, that we do at least co-parent well for our daughter. With the one sentence about being friendly and respectful, I just want her to realize that I am keep being like that despite her treating me the opposite (she has been quite disrespectful).

What do you think about my text? Will this escalate everything further or is it possible that a light goes on if she reads that?  

Hello NC...so I don't have as much time as I would like at the moment, but I did want to jump in here and let you know I will be following along. With that said, something I want from you...no more beating yourself up or talking down about yourself...can you do that for me? You are not a lunatic and we understand and we get it here. No judgment.

Like I said I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but I will check back in later when I get freed up. In the meantime please be kind to YOU and please take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[NorthernCreature]

Hi Northern...

Don't  have a lot of time at the moment, and then this caught my eye.  Just wanted to say - congratulations on becoming a father. First child?

Thank you. Yes, it is my first child. My wife only allowed me to see my daughter in the hallway of the apartment block for 5 minutes. Strangely enough, I ignored the sad situation and was totally focussed on my daughter. I did hold her in my arm, she is so cute... and the noises she made... so cute. But then my wife said that she wants to go back into the apartment and I gave her the baby. Since then, I miss my little daughter. That's why I did let my lawyer from the leash, we expected all this to happen.

Second... wow that's a tough situation. Are you coping okay? What's holding you together? Your lawyer, maybe?

I am going through a tough time since the end of November 2022 when she broke up with me. I didn't cope very well. I have another thread here in the forum where most of my story is written down but it's so much that I now thought that I separate future topics. Long story short, my story is like almost everyone elses BPD story... LOVE turned into HATE... with everthing you read about it... now we're stuck in a typical unblock, communicate, block, unblock, communicate, block and so forth situation (she's doing the block/unblock game since months).

I am often in deepest sorrow. I've never experienced what I just experienced the last months. It's freightening at times.

Even if I just saw my daughter once for now... she keeps me going. I allow myself to mourn. But when I get into really dark terretories, I think about my daughter. My lawyer gives me hope too but... as said, I'd rather reconcile and not dragging this war out further.

I'll pass along a couple of thoughts for you to take a look at.

First,   I would be careful, very careful about mingling the topic of your relationship status with your parental rights to see your daughter.   I can see you want to keep the door open for a reconciliation but I would suggestion a heaping ton of caution about mixing the two together.   It seems your daughter is already being used as a pawn and you want to do everything in your power to minimize that.

I think I see what you mean. If I would be constantly unblocked, I would separate the topics. But recently she only unblocked me for short period of times. I have two separate big wishes... I want to see my daughter... but at the same time I'd still like to reconcile. It's like when a window opens for a short period of time, I feel like one text must cover it all

Have you heard the phrase "Don't JADE"?    it stands for don't justify, argue, defend or explain.    Especially if this is an old argument where you've covered the same ground multiple times.    Make sense?    in the sentences above you are JADEing.  You are justifying things you believe and defending your behavior - that's a one way road to an argument.   it might be helpful to frame things in a  positive way, not a negative way.  that's why I flipped the last sentence.    remember she will likely share these messages with her legal council if she has one.

Yes, I am guilty of that... it kept me in circular arguments with her for months. I am slowly learning... weeks ago she did send me a 10 meter long WhatsApp message with old and new false accusations (80%). Including mixed signals how good I am (20%)... I ignored most of her accusations and was surspised how effective it was to not repeat the same arguments. We then focussed on the 20% positive signals but it didn't take long until she pushed me back again with "Yeah, but it will never be the same like before" and accusations started again...we're in a loop.

avoid making any connections between the co-parent relationship and your romantic relationship.   that would be emotionally difficult for anyone to handle.

those are my suggestions.   take the emotional temperature down in the conversation by avoiding JADE.   by avoiding negative or blaming language.   Offer positive sounding solutions.

First of all, thanks for all your suggestions. I have rewritten my German text. I am not quite sure what you mean by not making connections between co-parenting and romantic relationship... you mean in one sentence? Or not even in the entire text? Now as my current version is after applying your tips and changes... here is the structure... it has still both in it, first the romantic relationship, then parenting, and then romantic relationship again.

- Wanting to stick together and trusting each other
- Being worried, wanting to talk. Mentioning that the situation is sad
- Telling her that our daughter is important to me and that I want to see her
- Hoping that she sees us as family again. Telling her that I want to be a team with her

I actually even have a longer version, where I suggest her what we could do about her conflicts between closeness and distance. I suggesting her what she could do and what I could do differently this time. But this topic is very dangerous...

Paragraphs after that, I remind her of the things what she told me weeks ago. That I've been the dad her stepson never had... that he was happy with me. That my wife remembers the beautiful moments. And that she said she sufferes from the breakup too at times.

Then I am asking her to think about us again. But this longer version is probably... umm... I don't know... not sure if it would work to send her this long version, although it covers a few important points/topics of our relationship.

The closeness and distance issue... at times she broke up, I stayed cool and she was back with me 5 minutes later and told me that she never wants to lose me. Sometimes it's been an hour... it was like once a month, later once a week. Like in most cases the intervals picked up until the final(?) break up happened. Strangely enough the breakups or breakups threats have never been final... but as soon as I set boundaries, she ejected entirely from the relationship... I sadly said to her "It's sick that you're threatening me with breakups, I want to feel safe in the relationship too"... she turned that into something else and still keeps arguing that I offended her and said "my little psycho girl"... She must have comfabulated.

Anyway, even if I have not said that back then... I wish I wouldn't have said "It's sick that..." either. Now I would like her to know that I want to make it work... I am aware that we can't heal them and their issues. But I've read so much that I could act a lot more stable as well now... there is a German website where a couple of tips are listed... for example some DBT skills... for example that they could remind themselve that prior inner (back and forth) conflicts dissolved too... and that both of us must have radical acceptance when such states occur... that I as a partner can't do anything against it but stay stable and signal that I am still there for her. In a way, that's how it worked for us the entire 2022 year, until things blew up when I said "it's sick that you threat me with breakups"... it was as if I abandoned her... it appeared to me as if she felt "Uhh ohh, he always respected me with my issues, even when I broke up for 5 minutes or 1 hour... but now he sets boundaries... he will most likely break up, let me do this first"...

Of course I want to feel secure. I actually did most of the year as I knew she just had her "minutes"... I'd rather take those mini break ups and signal her "I am your lighthouse, follow the signal when you need your safe harbor, I am still standing here" than having this final break up because I told her "it's sick that... I want to feel secure". Everyone said setting boundaries is important, but it seems like it blew our relationship up... so, I'd like to tell her in a text, that I want her to feel secure again and trust me...  and that I would feel secure if she starts to speak openly with me, when she feels conflicts, stress, whatever... I could give space too. I explained her a few times the last months, that all I wanted, was that we both feel safe... I know... we're talking about a disorder where instability is one big issue... it's so messed up... I do understand her issues, the disorder... but I don't want to lose her...as if I hunt for a solution to make it work... despite knowing the difficulty... yet, I still want her... want to come up with magical workarounds and explain her to make it work... I guess you know the mess... I guess that's our conflict as Nons, right?

With that said, something I want from you...no more beating yourself up or talking down about yourself...can you do that for me? You are not a lunatic and we understand and we get it here. No judgment.

Like I said I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but I will check back in later when I get freed up. In the meantime please be kind to YOU and please take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Thank you for the kind words. I will follow your suggestion. This forum is so supportive. Thank you all.

[babyducks]

hello NorthernCreature,   

how are you feeling today?   are you taking good care of yourself?

I think I see what you mean. If I would be constantly unblocked, I would separate the topics. But recently she only unblocked me for short period of times. I have two separate big wishes... I want to see my daughter... but at the same time I'd still like to reconcile. It's like when a window opens for a short period of time, I feel like one text must cover it all

that's a really good insight.        good work figuring out how your emotions are at play in this complicated situation.  let's take a moment and talk about emotional intensity.   emotional intensity is not your friend.   it's not good for your wife and not good for you.    just to assign some random scale to emotional intensity lets say that 0 - 1 is low intensity,  5 - 6 is normal intensity,   and 10 - 12 is high intensity,  15 is harmfully intense where bad things are going to happen.   

you and I might normally be at 4 to 6.   that's our operating baseline.    pwBPD struggling with highly intense emotions about everything, their normal operating baseline might be 6 to 9.     

you might want to think about not overloading, not overwhelming your wife and pushing her emotional intensity into the 12 to 14 range.  it's going to take her longer and be more difficult for her to process the emotions that come from an interaction with you.

when I was with my BPD partner (now my EX)  I had a psychiatrist, that used to say Less Is More.   I thought it was an odd phrase but truthfully it made sense.   the less intensity I poured into an already volatile situation the more I made progress.    the less words I used, the better the conversation.    the less drama the more productive the relationship.

I am not quite sure what you mean by not making connections between co-parenting and romantic relationship... you mean in one sentence? Or not even in the entire text?

Yes.   and Yes.   And even beyond that too.  Congratulations on being the father of a wonderful baby girl.   You are always going to be her father, regardless of what happens between you and her mother.     You have the opportunity to create a new and special relationship with this new little person.   YOU don't want to fall into the trap of thinking I can be happy with my daughter if Wife does XYZ.    And you don't want to encourage your Wife to think NorthernCreature can only see daughter if he does XYZ.

I actually even have a longer version, where I suggest her what we could do about her conflicts between closeness and distance. I suggesting her what she could do and what I could do differently this time. But this topic is very dangerous...

Yes you are right, this is a very tough topic.   Right now, you aren't even speaking cordially.    You are not going to be able to leap from no communication to tough topics in one step.   If it happens it will require a bunch of baby steps of cordial communications that don't end in arguments or blocking.

Don't overwhelm her.   Don't overload her.    Don't over pursue her.

It takes a different set of communication skills to effectively talk with a pwBPD.   These are grade A+++ skills.   Black Belt skills.  They aren't intuitive.    and they aren't easy.    when I got together with my partner I thought I was a pretty good communicator.  HA.    Boy was I wrong.   

I saw that recently you and Turkish were talking about validation.   that's an important part of communication.    Validation Validation Validation.   It's not easy.   It's not something we learn at school.   It requires practice.    You can practice here with us.

If Valiation is hard,   think about how you can Not Invalidate.   

Right now, she doesn't want to be in contact.    That isn't what you want.    It may not even be reasonable.   but right now that is where she is at   Trying to force/encourage/manipulate/manufacture ways to have her think about reconciliation invalidates her emotion of the moment.    It raises her emotional intensity from a 7 to a 10.   and then she gets overwhelmed and BAM here come the blocks.

what I am trying to say, in my long winded way, is that before you can talk about tough topics you have to work to create a safe environment for that conversation to take place in.   

with pwBPD that is exquisitely hard to do.

if you go and look at some of the messages you have crafted to her, only looking at them through the eyes of Validation and Invalidation, can you see where you successfully validated, and where there is invalidation?

those would be my suggestions.    how does that fit in with what you are thinking?

'ducks

[NorthernCreature]

how are you feeling today?   are you taking good care of yourself?

I think I am spiraling down again. Yesterday, I thought I should be able to sleep as I have been sleepless for 24 hours... I was wrong, I couldn't sleep this night either. So, I was basically 2 days awake but I slept a few hours this afternoon, but it didn't really feel like sleep. I am constantly ruminating... and if I don't do it actively, my brain starts it subconsciously... there is no "stop" button. My brain is on autopilot and not just that... vivid memories pop up... and during the night, tears just automatically ran out of my eyes for hours... my head felt like it would explode and my chest feels like someone put a car on it. I have tremor in the hands... I am not able to eat... I ate two fried eggs in three days... my mother says I look skinny... why can't I let go?

I battle with two things...

1. We only live once, I am missing out on all those days with my daughter... it's cool that I have a lawyer but the days I missed are gone. I've seen her once... that's it. How will she ever attach to me if she hasn't seen her father in those very important early days, except once. For me it's important too... the experience is taken away from me. It is killing me inside.

2. While I am already at a point where I hate my wife for all the things she has done to me and my family. I still love her.. I've never felt so much for a person before. I am in complete cognitive dissonance... sometimes I hate her, sometimes I love her... sometimes I do both at the same time. It's as if she poisoned me with onset borderline... but most of the time, I absolutely want her back and want to make things work.

you and I might normally be at 4 to 6.   that's our operating baseline.    pwBPD struggling with highly intense emotions about everything, their normal operating baseline might be 6 to 9.     

you might want to think about not overloading, not overwhelming your wife and pushing her emotional intensity into the 12 to 14 range.  it's going to take her longer and be more difficult for her to process the emotions that come from an interaction with you.

when I was with my BPD partner (now my EX)  I had a psychiatrist, that used to say Less Is More.   I thought it was an odd phrase but truthfully it made sense.   the less intensity I poured into an already volatile situation the more I made progress.    the less words I used, the better the conversation.    the less drama the more productive the relationship.

I probably made the mistake a lot after the breakup. I often had fear of missing out, that she could meet someone else... thus, I wanted her to get back to my baseline as quickly as possible... repairing the relationship and being good again. There have been times where I didn't do that... but it takes just a few mixed signals and I back at "If you have these good memories, we can make it work again"... sometimes I haven't even be able to wait for a reply and "advertised" more aspects why reconciling would be good... and then yes, BLOCK again. On the other side, if I don't redirect it in that direction on my own, we waste the time by getting into circular discussions about her false accusations. This is why I pick out the fruits of her text messages, the positive signals... and ignored telling her my opinion again about the false things she said... because I've done that a hundred times.

I am not entirely sure what still makes me think that I can make it work with her again. Maybe it's false hope... maybe because she could just be in a hate phase... maybe because I noticed if we see each other in real life, she shows signs of being about to split me white again... example... my mother has a foster child, and I am sometimes outside with the little girl...my wife saw me... I guess her brain was like "what is making me think that he is bad, it doesn't fit with what I see"... and BAM... unblocked and text message with complains but also positive signals. But I truly start to wonder... she discarded me November 24... then the whole charm, not charm, charm, not charm... block, unblock, block, unblock stuff started... meanwhile she burned more and more bridges... is it even realistic to think that she could come back to me? And see... I just notice how much I want her back... because it even scared me to write this question because and of course I want the answer to be "YES, she could come back"... have I read about such BPD getting back months later cases? Yes... quite often already... I am not sure if it's possible in my case... maybe, maybe not... but the question is there... as surprising it was that she went from LOVE to HATE out of a sudden... why wouldn't it be possible that she splits the other way around? Back from HATE to LOVE?... the only thing I really noticed is that it sometimes appeared like it was about to happen, when we saw each other in real... if her last memory of me is not connected to drama... this happened in the hallway when I had the baby in the arm... my wife had this "in love" face expression again... her face was melting, her eyes were like "Why do I hate that guy?"... I would bet she was about to split again, but back at home she started drama again via WhatsApp... it's like she attempts to keep the black split going... like it's often portrayed "I love you, but go away".

Congratulations on being the father of a wonderful baby girl. You are always going to be her father, regardless of what happens between you and her mother.

Thank you. I'd prefer other circumstances, the ones we promised each other. But as much as I love my wife, I went to the lawyer for the exact reason... regardless of what is between her mother and me... I am not giving up on my daughter. It's not even about my own rights to meet her... it's about my daughters rights to know both parents. I want to see her grow up, no matter if alone or with my wife. I want to be there for my daughter.

I would have thought my wife must have the letter of my lawyer by now... but I am not unblocked, nor did I get a dramatic message. Maybe tomorrow, who knows... or she just reacts via her lawyer, that would be new because she was usually impulsive in the past and projected the things she caused onto me... while I just defended my rights.

This issue could pop up again the days... it'll be difficult to reconcile if I am perceived again as the evil person... in this case, fighting for my rights and the rights of my daughter. And then she will say again "See... you want to reconcile but you always make it worse"... no, the reality is... I want to reconcile, but things get worse and worse if I don't get her help because of "it will never work or be the same again" catastrophic thinking... thus, things get worse when we need lawyers and so on.

Right now, she doesn't want to be in contact.    That isn't what you want.    It may not even be reasonable.   but right now that is where she is at   Trying to force/encourage/manipulate/manufacture ways to have her think about reconciliation invalidates her emotion of the moment.    It raises her emotional intensity from a 7 to a 10.   and then she gets overwhelmed and BAM here come the blocks.

what I am trying to say, in my long winded way, is that before you can talk about tough topics you have to work to create a safe environment for that conversation to take place in.   

with pwBPD that is exquisitely hard to do.

Yes, I see the issue. It's so difficult. The problem is also that she has a narc mother who did eveything to get us both split up. She did everything... smear campaigns, manipulating my stepson against me, later my wife... the contact between her and her mother was broken when we came togehter... her mother doesn't accept if her daughter is independent. She is very controlling. During that time her mother ran smear campaigns against us... as said, even threatening my wife to take away her son... or attempted to manipulate my stepson against me (didn't work, he complained to her... he loved me and said "stop this grandma!" as people told us)... her mother hated me without a reason, didn't even greet me outside and so... eventually, she must have realized "if I can't control my daughter anymore, I must control my daughter and her husband"... she started to signal that she accepts me now, and my wife was happy... months later, we have good contact with her mother (I thought... but things were just starting). Accepting me the husband, was just a trick to get back to her daughter... because my wife always told her "You gonna accept my life, including my husband... or live with the consequences". But then... they had contact again as said.

She started to control us both, which I didn't accept (planning our christmas days for us and even worse things, wanting to decide our baby name and worse and worse)... in the background more and more strange stories about me popped up... my wife started to believe some of them and I had to work to convince her how ridicoulous it is... long story short... my wife got more and more psychotic, because more external stories popped up... she started to split on me... when we broke up, her mother didn't even hide it anymore... she openly talked PLEASE READ about me and my family... now the smearcampaign wasnt undercover anymore. What I want to say is...

My wife is now back under full control of her mother. Spending the majority of the day at her mothers home instead of in her own apartment. When we met in the park via coincidence... and her mother was there too... I realized when my wife confabulates... her mother validates the false reality, especially if it's against me... because strength her daughters false reality, keeps her not running back to me...

This is why I often attempted to be the opposite piece... invalidating the false perception, because her mother isn't doing it... that at least one person tells her "No, this is not right"... and validating only the things that are right... I see how invalidating a BPD person isn't a good strategy... but I have the issue of a narc mother in law too...

The only positive is that her mother doesn't allow her daughter to write with me (I am not kidding, she gives her daughter such orders), but yet my wife contacted me again and again... so, it seems, she still needs contact to me at times... and for me it is like I need to use the time frames and invalidate the wrong stuff and validate the right stuff... yeah, it's not working

Such a dilemma... considering this, do you think I still should take baby steps? to me it feels like her mother creates more and more distance between me and my wife with each month... she repeats what her mother tells her, and believes the most ridiculous stories.

I am not sure how I can not be invalidating at times under these conditions or how I can validate her.

My mother is grandma too... but her mother truly enjoys it to be the only grandma to see her granddaughter. To give you an impression... my mother hasn't seen my daughter yet and isn't allowed either... her mother lives one apartment block further... her mother saw my mother on the balcony... she took the baby and did hold it like a trophy in the air and looked into the direction of my mother and laughed. NARC ALARM.

We think it might not even be my wife who is not showing me our daughter... we suspect that her mother talked her into doing this. Also... mirroring... she really mirrors her mother now too. I knew her mother and how she acts... my wife acts as anti social now. It's so sad.

[SinisterComplex]

I think I am spiraling down again. Yesterday, I thought I should be able to sleep as I have been sleepless for 24 hours... I was wrong, I couldn't sleep this night either. So, I was basically 2 days awake but I slept a few hours this afternoon, but it didn't really feel like sleep. I am constantly ruminating... and if I don't do it actively, my brain starts it subconsciously... there is no "stop" button. My brain is on autopilot and not just that... vivid memories pop up... and during the night, tears just automatically ran out of my eyes for hours... my head felt like it would explode and my chest feels like someone put a car on it. I have tremor in the hands... I am not able to eat... I ate two fried eggs in three days... my mother says I look skinny... why can't I let go?

I battle with two things...

1. We only live once, I am missing out on all those days with my daughter... it's cool that I have a lawyer but the days I missed are gone. I've seen her once... that's it. How will she ever attach to me if she hasn't seen her father in those very important early days, except once. For me it's important too... the experience is taken away from me. It is killing me inside.

2. While I am already at a point where I hate my wife for all the things she has done to me and my family. I still love her.. I've never felt so much for a person before. I am in complete cognitive dissonance... sometimes I hate her, sometimes I love her... sometimes I do both at the same time. It's as if she poisoned me with onset borderline... but most of the time, I absolutely want her back and want to make things work.

I probably made the mistake a lot after the breakup. I often had fear of missing out, that she could meet someone else... thus, I wanted her to get back to my baseline as quickly as possible... repairing the relationship and being good again. There have been times where I didn't do that... but it takes just a few mixed signals and I back at "If you have these good memories, we can make it work again"... sometimes I haven't even be able to wait for a reply and "advertised" more aspects why reconciling would be good... and then yes, BLOCK again. On the other side, if I don't redirect it in that direction on my own, we waste the time by getting into circular discussions about her false accusations. This is why I pick out the fruits of her text messages, the positive signals... and ignored telling her my opinion again about the false things she said... because I've done that a hundred times.

I am not entirely sure what still makes me think that I can make it work with her again. Maybe it's false hope... maybe because she could just be in a hate phase... maybe because I noticed if we see each other in real life, she shows signs of being about to split me white again... example... my mother has a foster child, and I am sometimes outside with the little girl...my wife saw me... I guess her brain was like "what is making me think that he is bad, it doesn't fit with what I see"... and BAM... unblocked and text message with complains but also positive signals. But I truly start to wonder... she discarded me November 24... then the whole charm, not charm, charm, not charm... block, unblock, block, unblock stuff started... meanwhile she burned more and more bridges... is it even realistic to think that she could come back to me? And see... I just notice how much I want her back... because it even scared me to write this question because and of course I want the answer to be "YES, she could come back"... have I read about such BPD getting back months later cases? Yes... quite often already... I am not sure if it's possible in my case... maybe, maybe not... but the question is there... as surprising it was that she went from LOVE to HATE out of a sudden... why wouldn't it be possible that she splits the other way around? Back from HATE to LOVE?... the only thing I really noticed is that it sometimes appeared like it was about to happen, when we saw each other in real... if her last memory of me is not connected to drama... this happened in the hallway when I had the baby in the arm... my wife had this "in love" face expression again... her face was melting, her eyes were like "Why do I hate that guy?"... I would bet she was about to split again, but back at home she started drama again via WhatsApp... it's like she attempts to keep the black split going... like it's often portrayed "I love you, but go away".

Thank you. I'd prefer other circumstances, the ones we promised each other. But as much as I love my wife, I went to the lawyer for the exact reason... regardless of what is between her mother and me... I am not giving up on my daughter. It's not even about my own rights to meet her... it's about my daughters rights to know both parents. I want to see her grow up, no matter if alone or with my wife. I want to be there for my daughter.

I would have thought my wife must have the letter of my lawyer by now... but I am not unblocked, nor did I get a dramatic message. Maybe tomorrow, who knows... or she just reacts via her lawyer, that would be new because she was usually impulsive in the past and projected the things she caused onto me... while I just defended my rights.

This issue could pop up again the days... it'll be difficult to reconcile if I am perceived again as the evil person... in this case, fighting for my rights and the rights of my daughter. And then she will say again "See... you want to reconcile but you always make it worse"... no, the reality is... I want to reconcile, but things get worse and worse if I don't get her help because of "it will never work or be the same again" catastrophic thinking... thus, things get worse when we need lawyers and so on.

Yes, I see the issue. It's so difficult. The problem is also that she has a narc mother who did eveything to get us both split up. She did everything... smear campaigns, manipulating my stepson against me, later my wife... the contact between her and her mother was broken when we came togehter... her mother doesn't accept if her daughter is independent. She is very controlling. During that time her mother ran smear campaigns against us... as said, even threatening my wife to take away her son... or attempted to manipulate my stepson against me (didn't work, he complained to her... he loved me and said "stop this grandma!" as people told us)... her mother hated me without a reason, didn't even greet me outside and so... eventually, she must have realized "if I can't control my daughter anymore, I must control my daughter and her husband"... she started to signal that she accepts me now, and my wife was happy... months later, we have good contact with her mother (I thought... but things were just starting). Accepting me the husband, was just a trick to get back to her daughter... because my wife always told her "You gonna accept my life, including my husband... or live with the consequences". But then... they had contact again as said.

She started to control us both, which I didn't accept (planning our christmas days for us and even worse things, wanting to decide our baby name and worse and worse)... in the background more and more strange stories about me popped up... my wife started to believe some of them and I had to work to convince her how ridicoulous it is... long story short... my wife got more and more psychotic, because more external stories popped up... she started to split on me... when we broke up, her mother didn't even hide it anymore... she openly talked PLEASE READ about me and my family... now the smearcampaign wasnt undercover anymore. What I want to say is...

My wife is now back under full control of her mother. Spending the majority of the day at her mothers home instead of in her own apartment. When we met in the park via coincidence... and her mother was there too... I realized when my wife confabulates... her mother validates the false reality, especially if it's against me... because strength her daughters false reality, keeps her not running back to me...

This is why I often attempted to be the opposite piece... invalidating the false perception, because her mother isn't doing it... that at least one person tells her "No, this is not right"... and validating only the things that are right... I see how invalidating a BPD person isn't a good strategy... but I have the issue of a narc mother in law too...

The only positive is that her mother doesn't allow her daughter to write with me (I am not kidding, she gives her daughter such orders), but yet my wife contacted me again and again... so, it seems, she still needs contact to me at times... and for me it is like I need to use the time frames and invalidate the wrong stuff and validate the right stuff... yeah, it's not working

Such a dilemma... considering this, do you think I still should take baby steps? to me it feels like her mother creates more and more distance between me and my wife with each month... she repeats what her mother tells her, and believes the most ridiculous stories.

I am not sure how I can not be invalidating at times under these conditions or how I can validate her.

My mother is grandma too... but her mother truly enjoys it to be the only grandma to see her granddaughter. To give you an impression... my mother hasn't seen my daughter yet and isn't allowed either... her mother lives one apartment block further... her mother saw my mother on the balcony... she took the baby and did hold it like a trophy in the air and looked into the direction of my mother and laughed. NARC ALARM.

We think it might not even be my wife who is not showing me our daughter... we suspect that her mother talked her into doing this. Also... mirroring... she really mirrors her mother now too. I knew her mother and how she acts... my wife acts as anti social now. It's so sad.

So I am going to address the sleep thing now...take some valerian root, ZMA (Zinc Magnesium Aspartate), 5-HTP, Ashwagandha...these will relax you (these are just suggestions...you take 1 or all together. Another alternative...use some honey before bed. I am not recommending melatonin for a reason...it won't help you and may actually make things worse if you take the pill form. However, if you want to use melatonin then please search for a topical preparation. The point is to get you to sleep well because you need rest. Until that happens anything said is a waste because we have to focus on taking care of YOU first. Your mind is pinballing along with your emotions.

So I do not say this lightly...PLEASE BE KIND TO YOU and TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF! Ok the caps are a bit much sure, but it is intended to drive the point home.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[NorthernCreature]

Thanks for the suggestions SinisterComplex...

At the moment I am a bit isolated. I am not feeling well going outside. Maybe I can send my mother to the pharmacy to purchase these things for me.

Yes my mind is pinballing since months. It all kills me inside... the breakup (almost seems like I feel worse with each month), not seeing my daughter, and how different my perceived reality is to the one of my wife... or the gaslighting her mother did last year... I still ruminate about this too... and how she gaslit me, and her daughter, who then started gaslight me as well when I was split black...

Talking about the gaslighting... I truly feel the damage. I am not kidding... the best desciption would be that I can feel my brain... it feels like pudding.. or as if I had my head in a microwave... but it's not just my mind..

I think even months after... I am still totally shell shocked about what just happened. But I see my wife as a victim too... she is victim of her mother... I hope she will see this again. I've always wanted her best... and I've shown her every day.

[Turkish]

The suggestions by babyducks are good. Be wary of JADE

In the world of marksmanship, there is a popular phrase – “aim small, miss small.” This means that if you just aim at a target, you may miss the target entirely, but if you focus and aim at the bullseye, you may miss it, but still hit the target.

The target is saving your marriage while the bullseye is access to your baby daughter. Focus on the bullseye. Hopefully, though, you'll get access to your baby daughter.  It's an imperfect analogy.

Focusing on the r/s issues while trying to get access may be triggering to your wife. She thinks that way, and it's mutually triggering.

How I dealt with it was "be like Spock." Logical, focused, but not inhuman. My goal was nothing less than joint custody of our kids, then 1 and 3-4.

[babyducks]

I am not feeling well going outside.

Can you say more about this NorthernCreature?   What's going on that you aren't feeling up to going out?   

Getting some good quality sleep and some good quality food is the first priority.   you can't be there for anyone if you aren't eating and sleeping.   

when my relationship ended I think I lost nearly 13 pounds, and had trouble sleeping.    I did use something to help me sleep for a while.   I probably didn't use it as frequently as I should have.    do you have a doctor or a therapist to help  you right now?

Yes my mind is pinballing since months. It all kills me inside...

these are not ~normal~ relationships or ~normal~ breakups.    we've been there.   we understand.     how can we help you take good physical care of yourself?

'ducks

[NorthernCreature]

The suggestions by babyducks are good. Be wary of JADE

The target is saving your marriage while the bullseye is access to your baby daughter. Focus on the bullseye. Hopefully, though, you'll get access to your baby daughter.  It's an imperfect analogy.

Focusing on the r/s issues while trying to get access may be triggering to your wife. She thinks that way, and it's mutually triggering.

How I dealt with it was "be like Spock." Logical, focused, but not inhuman. My goal was nothing less than joint custody of our kids, then 1 and 3-4.

It's strange how fast my mood changes. As said, at times I really start to hate her as well, until I am reconcile mode again. But new things happened that do really upset me. She basically hates everyone connected to me now... my entire family (even if she liked my mother a lot)... but everyone connected to me is now persona non grata... including my mother.

I've only seen the baby once as said. But my mother has never seen her grandchild while my wife's mother holds it up like a trophy and laughst at my mother (she lives the next apartment block, and it happened when my mother was on the balcony). but that is old news... here is what happened today...

My mother met my wife and asked her if she can take a look into the pram. My wife just looked to the other side, didn't stop and said "what a coincidence" (referring to her psychosis that we all, I mean everyone I know, stalk her).

In my current mood, I think my wife can get lost... it's so disrespectful what she is doing to me, also to our baby... but it's also disrespectful how she treats my mother.

But it's not the first time that I feel like hating my wife... it will probably take a day or two and my brain misses her again. But in my current mood? If that mood would just stay longer... it would make it so easy to close this chapter. It's just that this mood doesn't stick.

Anyway... I am wondering why she didn't unblock and complain yet... the lawyer letter could have arrived today, or maybe tomorrow... but in my current mood, I'd just reply... "Look, if you like it or not, our daughter has a right to meet his father and the other side of the family. And I will fight for our daughters rights."

Honestly, in my current mood I even considering blocking her for the first time myself... EVERYWHERE. I just can't do it because I want to signal lawyers, youth welfare service, court, judges and so on, that I have been "attachment tolerant" (literally translated from German bindungstolerant)... and that she is the one who is attachment intolerant (bindungsintolerant)... (denying the child the other parent or family).

I think for now, I just will wait for her reaction to the lawyer letter. Maybe there won't  be a reaction except that her lawyer replies. This would be new... because she usually was impulsive and wrote me in the past. Let's see.

I am so upset about how she treats my mother outside... and it's just a baby... imagine the child starts walking, has meet my mother or family already a ton of times (once I got it through)... is that how my wife imagines it in the future? Meeting each other per coincidence... confusing our little daughter (if you're with me, you can not say hello to that family... as an example)... I see how the future looks like...

I am so upset that I would absolutely not be interested to reconcile today... but then again, it's not the first time I feel like that. I always fall back to loving her again... I really HOPE my the upsetting feeling STICKS... it would make it so easy to give a damn about her. Unfortunately, it probably won't... it's probably just a moment again.

For now it's clear... my mother told me even if my wife and I would get back together again... my wife is no longer welcomed. She is done with her. She constantly reached her hands out to her and respected her... even during our on and off phase... today my mother told me "Son, excuse me... but I feel like I will never ever be able to respect her again".

Let's see... you guys will probably see me crawling back into this thread here the next days and asking everyone what I can do to get back with my wife again... I really hope I am wrong and todays mood sticks.

Can you say more about this NorthernCreature?   What's going on that you aren't feeling up to going out?  

Getting some good quality sleep and some good quality food is the first priority.   you can't be there for anyone if you aren't eating and sleeping.

A couple of things.

1. When I walk, I feel circulatory problems... it feels like I am about to faint when I walk too much (that's a mess, because I have been a runner and healthy... now I am a wreck).

2. I no longer sleep. If I do, it's during the day. I am an unproductive night owl (except that I write about the whole mess online).

3. I usually woke up in the morning, showered and the day started. Now if I am awake, I mostly stay in bed. I have no energy to get out nor an idea what I can do outside... what kind of reason I could find to go outside.

4. Living just one apartment block away from my wife, there is a very high chance to meet her outside with the pram. I'd like to look into the pram too, but I expect a strange situation too. And new stalking accussions, like my mother was accussed today too. Of course, I then would write it down for my lawyer... but... it's all so difficult.

5. There was a huge smear campaign run by her hardcore narc mother... and she manipulated my wife to participate. Months ago, when I went outside, every neighbors looked at me like I am a villain. My mother told me recently that the tide has turned and that I don't have to think people in the street think bad about me. My wife and her mother made new friends on a weekly basis, but usually also lost the friends two weeks later. Now those people speak with my mother and more and more people approach my mother and tell her how things appeared off with my wife and mother in law... some of them got triangulated against each other as well... my mother told me, they have no one outside anymore... maybe she is right... but when I went outside, it still felt like everyone is looking at me.

when my relationship ended I think I lost nearly 13 pounds, and had trouble sleeping.    I did use something to help me sleep for a while.   I probably didn't use it as frequently as I should have.    do you have a doctor or a therapist to help  you right now?

I am not sure how much I lost, but I look more skinny than comparing to the time I ran 20 miles per week... my cheek bones are visible... my mother says I am not looking good. My mother purchased canned food raviolis today... they're easier to eat as these raviolis are squashy... I was able to get a bit of it down. It's a start.

No therapy. It takes 6 months to get a therapy place in Germany. I gave up on the idea. I called several therapists the last months who all said in a half year... not just that... most of them totally disrespectful on the telephone... I gave one a 2 min short introduction what happened to me, that I was emotionally abused... maybe it's because I am male, I don't know... but the reply was "The story is not important, the symptoms are"... I wonder how these people become therapists. No wonder the therapist of my wife didn't achieve anything with her either in those 1 hour per week appointments.

Also... if I search for therapists... I can set filters... to me it would be important that the therapist knows about personality disorders such as BPD and NPD... so that he can understand what kind of effect my wife had on me... then he/she needs to know about trauma and depression. If you set those filters, you find not even a handful of people in my city. I called them. One did stand out, she told me it's only group therapy.. she explained that she can't treat people individually, but attempted to convince me that group therapy is far more effective (seriously? I felt BPD myself after this statement and immedietly split her black on the phone)... she probably makes good money tho... not with me, I told her "thanks, nope, I keep looking elsewhere". But I gave up.

I am kinda frustrated today. I have a few things that help me imo...

1. I am not kidding... this forum here helps. I feel understood.

2. My mother constantly keeps listening to me since months. She gave me a place to live once my wife threw me out. I am looking for an apartment but we have a apartment crisis in Germany (there are about 30-200 inquiries per apartment in our city). While it makes me more depressive that my wife brought me into this situation, that a grown up men now lives at his mothers home again (and my wife used that against me during a rage... "look you loser, still living at moms home... what a loser"... I am still thankful that my mother helps me and constantly listend day in and out... I know it's not easy for her either.

3. My half-sister checks in once per week... phone call... whatsapp voice discussions. She only listens and asks me about the whole situation and it is okay for her. Her husband calls me too once a week... he usually talks with me for 3 hours and doesn't get tired of it. They both want me to get out with them... they like bowling... they promised that I can talk about my wife on the phone as much as I want... but if I accept the bowling idea... they want me to enjoy the day and not make it a topic, not because they're annoyed... but they'd like it if I get the head clear at least for a while. I haven't accepted the offer yet but they still check in and listen.

4. My mother has a foster child. It's the daughter of my cousin who is by the way a pwBPD as well...which is why my mother has her child. I call her my foster sister... she is 3... I've done a lot with her until she turned 2... until my wife isolated me from my mother and my foster sister. But my foster sister is very attached to me still... and now that we live together for a while... she makes me forget all the trouble at times. Her smiles when we play... or when we play with my cat. She is also the only reason why I went outside at times, to the playgrounds... since I focuss on her, I don't care if my wife is around... it's just that I did go outside with her the last weeks as I don't feel good anymore... but I take care about her inside. We play memory and a lot of other things. But when I am not feeling well, I tell my mother and hide in another room... I don't want my foster sister to notice the pain I go through at times. And there are times, as described at the top, where I simply have no energy left anyway.

So, some things help. But it's still not easy.

[babyducks]

Now if I am awake, I mostly stay in bed. I have no energy to get out nor an idea what I can do outside... what kind of reason I could find to go outside.
 
So, some things help. But it's still not easy.

Hi NorthernCreature,

You do write well in English.  I understand it's not your first language.    I think I  understand what you are describing, still I would like to make sure I've got it correct.   It sounds like you are not eating or sleeping well, not getting exercise, indeed not going out much at all but spending most of your time in bed.   Is that right?

Can I ask how you feel about that?  about sharing that with us?   what do you think about your condition as it is right now?

I noticed that a little while ago you were having a conversation with SaltyDawg and Wools, about taking care of yourself.    about making your physical health and emotional strength a focus of your attention.    what part of that conversation worked for you?    what ideas did it encourage you to explore?

Here's what I would like you to look at for a minute.   Not eating, not sleeping, not going out (I know you are in the same neighborhood as your wife and her mother) is making this situation harder to process.   I know it's hard.   I know it's very emotionally draining still I would say that your number one job right now is to take care of yourself.    That's job one.   Nothing else.

what would have to happen for you to go bowling?    or someplace with your half sister and her husband?    if bowling sounds like too much is there something else?  someplace else?  that sounds like a good place to start?  something that could help you get back into the business of living again?   if it is hard to eat, can you make a commitment to yourself to drink a protein shake a day?   something with actual nutrition to it?

there is an old phrase around here.   it goes back years on this site.    the old timers used to say 'things won't start to get better until you stop making them worse'.      that's a pretty blunt statement, but it's very true Northern.   how can we encourage you to make things better for you?    what one little tiny thing can you try today?

'ducks

[NorthernCreature]

Hi NorthernCreature,

You do write well in English.  I understand it's not your first language.    I think I  understand what you are describing, still I would like to make sure I've got it correct.   It sounds like you are not eating or sleeping well, not getting exercise, indeed not going out much at all but spending most of your time in bed.   Is that right?

Thank you.

Correct. The last weeks that has been the case. The last time I have been outside was when I met my half sister for a coffee who the suggested me to call the hospital if I am already father (that's how I learned that I am father). After that, I was the last time outside when I was allowed to see my daughter for 5 mins in the hallway of my wife. That's 20 days ago... after that I was only outside to visit my lawyer. I think my psyche is shellshocked from the fact that my wife does prevent me to see my daughter. Since then I am in complete isolation.

Yes, I am most of the time in bed sleeping all day long, awake at night... crying hours until my sleep pants and t-shirt s wet. Wouldn't have known that I can produce so much tears. It's often like I poured out 2 or 3 cups of water on my clothes. I moved a bedside table to my bed to place my notebook there for the times I am awake. Or I use my tablet to hear borderline related content on YouTube, Audible or read about it. That's managable. When I find the energy and when I don't cry... I play with my foster sister in the living room... that's when I get out of the bed... but as said, only if I have a somewhat okay day (I protect her... I hide myself otherwise).

Can I ask how you feel about that?  about sharing that with us?   what do you think about your condition as it is right now?

I think my wife broke me. And I assume it will take a very very long time to heal from this. It changed me. If I don't cry... or if I don't put all my energy together to at least play with my foster sister or talk an an hours with my mother in the living room... I have moments where I feel zero... I feel empty. I am not kidding. I feel dead inside at times. It's not just that my body feels weak... I have momens where I completely feel dead inside... my mother suggested me to play my guitars again... I've done that since 2 decades every day... until my wife isolated me from my hobbies... but now? It felt strange when my mother suggested that... I can't do such things anymore. I just don't feel it anymore. I don't feel any kind of pleasure anymore. At the moment I can barely think about anything that would give me gratification, except seeing my daughter. But sadly, I can't. At the moment, only my mother, her foster daughter make me happy... and my half-sister and her husband who both surprised me with their level of support (considering that so called friends didn't).

I noticed that a little while ago you were having a conversation with SaltyDawg and Wools, about taking care of yourself.    about making your physical health and emotional strength a focus of your attention.    what part of that conversation worked for you?    what ideas did it encourage you to explore?

Before birth of my daughter, I went outside a lot with my 3 years old foster sister... to the playgrounds. That had a healing effect. But since my wife saw me outside, it triggered her and the whole "get away closer" started again on WhatsApp... but later, not getting told that my daughter was born... and that I could only see her for 5 mins so far... that, really destroyed my progress.

what would have to happen for you to go bowling?    or someplace with your half sister and her husband?    if bowling sounds like too much is there something else?  someplace else?  that sounds like a good place to start?  something that could help you get back into the business of living again?   if it is hard to eat, can you make a commitment to yourself to drink a protein shake a day?   something with actual nutrition to it?

I think I am not in an emotional state to do something with them at all. I don't even have topics anymore except one. I know they offered me talk about this on the phone and suggest not to do this when we go out or something... and I get the point, thinking about something else... but it won't work. My head is spinning day in and out unless in those dead moments I mentioned... and it's spinning around two topics... my wife and my daughter. I don't want to be that guy... going out and make it a topic despite the suggestion not to do it. Apart from that, everything makes me melancholic to the point that I can easily get tears in my eyes (also here, unless I feel completely dead inside... it's alternating)... I don't want to be seen like that.

I hope time will heal.

By the way... yesterday I thought my wife can get lost after I heard how she treated my mother. And now? this night today? My emotions changed again... I still want her back. I don't want her to get lost. It was a painful night. I thought a lot about her. ANd all those flashbacks are killing me too.

It's ironic... I feel so borderline now too. Maybe that is PTSD or something. I don't know.

It's kinda strange that my wife did not unblock me yet... she must have the letter of my lawyer by now...the pattern is broken... she raged on WhatsApp in the past when I defended myself... that this hasn't happened yet can only mean a few things...

1. The letter is still not there (unlikely, because it only takes 1 day in Germany)
2. She is impulsive, but it might be that her mother told her "Be careful now, don't write him, he will document it all". But on the other side, that hasn't prevented my wife from getting impulsive in the past either... so, hmm.
3. She was able to keep it together and visited her lawyer already, and I will get a letter soon.
4. Her complaints will come delayed, like a few times in the past.
5. No matter if she loved or hated me. Even her hatred gave me the impression that she still thinks a lot about me. But maybe she is finally over me. If she doesn't even react negatively to the letter, maybe she reached the state of indifference.

I don't know.

[babyducks]

Hello NorthernCreature,

When my Ex ended our relationship, there was a place right across the street from my home, which offered community gardens.    Here, where I am, a community garden gives you a small plot of land, like 5 foot by 10 foot, where you (and bunches of other people) can grow vegetables if you live in an apartment.   So my Ex ended up with a plot in that community garden.   She was very often right across the street from my house.    She ended the relationship.   With all the allegations and drama that you would expect.   I was violent.   I was angry.   She was afraid of me.   and yet every night she was across the street puttering in her garden.

I had a hard time with that.   I would see her alot.    There was always some dramatic moment when we bumped into each other.    I was freaked out with her being across the street.   I felt  uncomfortable in my own home.    It was pretty horrible for a while.    It did feel to me like some kind of PTSD reaction.   

That was a while ago and I have worked passed most of that.   I still see her, from time to time.    This town is not so big that we could avoid each other but she still seems to go out of her way to be in places where she knows I would be.   I've found ways to go about my life and do what I want/need  without considering her.

I think you can do that too.  Actually I am sure you can do that too.

Since then I am in complete isolation.

I remember you saying that you were a jogger.   that you ran 20 miles a week or so.   If you are like other joggers that I know, I am sure you didn't start at 20 miles a week.   You had a training program,   you slowly worked your way up to your goals.    You started small and built on little successes.    Right?

I am going to suggest that is how you build yourself back up now.   that's how you are going to build up your confidence and your emotional strength.   It's going to require a program to rebuild your mental strength just like it would require a program/plan to jog 20 miles.

Start small.   Start to turn off the YouTube, the Audible, for a half hour at a time.  Get up and get showered.   Linger in the shower and let the hot water sooth you.  Play with your foster sister.   and make plans to play with her as much as you can.   

I think my wife broke me. And I assume it will take a very very long time to heal from this. It changed me.

I understand.   my relationship changed me too.   we can heal that broken spot and grow stronger.   

But since my wife saw me outside, it triggered her and the whole "get away closer" started again on WhatsApp...

I am going to say that it doesn't matter that your wife got triggered.   the only people we can change, or help, or improve are ourselves.    when I used to bump into my EX, I would have a pretty strong reaction.   maybe like PTSD, I'm not sure.   I would feel terribly terribly unsafe.   which makes sense because so much of our relationship was emotionally violent.   I wanted to find ways to make myself emotionally safe again.   So I would hide in my bedroom or try to coax her back into the idealization phase.    anything so I didn't feel her contempt and abuse.

There is a guy Pete Walker who talkes about Complex PTSD, what you get when you live with long periods of neglect, rejection, abuse and toxic shame.  Pete Walker mostly works with adults who grew up with trauma in the family but to a large extent it applied to me too.   If I took the word child out of most of his sentences he was describing me and what I felt.   Here is his website:

www.pete-walker.com/index.htm

Pete Walker talks about being triggered into an emotional flashback.  most important he talks about how to manage them.   for me, what I experienced was an emotional flashback returned me to the intense emotions of some of our worst arguments and breakups.    it felt like it was happening all over again when in reality, nothing was happening other than I was re-living the experience.   I had to 1) make a deliberate and conscious decision to manage my own emotions and 2) learn tricks and tips on how to deal with my own inner thoughts.

what do you think?

In the letter your lawyer sent, what kind of deadline was there for your wife to respond?    when are you going to talk with your lawyer again?

'ducks

[NorthernCreature]

Hello NorthernCreature,

When my Ex ended our relationship, there was a place right across the street from my home, which offered community gardens.    Here, where I am, a community garden gives you a small plot of land, like 5 foot by 10 foot, where you (and bunches of other people) can grow vegetables if you live in an apartment.   So my Ex ended up with a plot in that community garden.   She was very often right across the street from my house.    She ended the relationship.   With all the allegations and drama that you would expect.   I was violent.   I was angry.   She was afraid of me.   and yet every night she was across the street puttering in her garden.

I had a hard time with that.   I would see her alot.    There was always some dramatic moment when we bumped into each other.    I was freaked out with her being across the street.   I felt  uncomfortable in my own home.    It was pretty horrible for a while.    It did feel to me like some kind of PTSD reaction.   

That was a while ago and I have worked passed most of that.   I still see her, from time to time.    This town is not so big that we could avoid each other but she still seems to go out of her way to be in places where she knows I would be.   I've found ways to go about my life and do what I want/need  without considering her.

I think you can do that too.  Actually I am sure you can do that too.

Then you actually know how that is. You've been in a very similar situation. I feel sorry you went through that too. Thanks for sharing this because this actually gives me hope that we're able to deal with the things in the long run. But I am still anxious... as much as I want to see our baby or child regularly, I think it will constantly throw me back when I see my wife.

I remember you saying that you were a jogger.   that you ran 20 miles a week or so.   If you are like other joggers that I know, I am sure you didn't start at 20 miles a week.   You had a training program,   you slowly worked your way up to your goals.    You started small and built on little successes.    Right?

Right. That was before I met my wife and still at the beginning of our relationship. Also part of the first red flags... "Why do you go jogging? To look good for other women?"... "No, I never thought that way. I am doing this for myself, for my soul". Then it was the time I was away jogging, she complained about that too. I eventually felt bad to go jogging and stopped. But I am off topic again (it's strange how everything reminds me of our relationship).

On topic... Right... I actually started small, was only able to increase the distance over time. You are right, I do now need to start with small steps, be it walking or anything.

I am going to say that it doesn't matter that your wife got triggered.   the only people we can change, or help, or improve are ourselves.

I think what I meant was that she (or her brain) seems to have difficulties to keep the black split going when she visually gets remembered again that I am the person she previously thought... normal friendly guy, fond of children... just a peaceful person. That triggered her to write me a long text... still with lots of false allergations, but with said mixed and positive signals. It happened when I was almost living with the fate... I felt so good that week, which is why I went outside a lot with my foster sister. It's true what people say about (I think it's not allowed to write the word here) vacuum cleaning... (laugh)... when you have a bit of progress, they soak you back in... even worse, they give you hope and then block you again afterwards... the come closer, go away. I hate you, don't leave me... but truth told, it's not just her... I looked for contact too when possible.

There is a guy Pete Walker who talkes about Complex PTSD, what you get when you live with long periods of neglect, rejection, abuse and toxic shame.

Thank you. I will check him out.

In the letter your lawyer sent, what kind of deadline was there for your wife to respond?    when are you going to talk with your lawyer again?

He gives her 1 week to reply.

I am quite sure he must have send the letter last Tuesday... that means she should have received it on Thursday. It's truly strange not to get an impulsive reaction from her. The letter should be very triggering for her.

1. Laywer reminds her that she only allowed me to see our daughter for 5-10 mins in a hallway. He reminds her that she apart from that blocked further requests for contact and communication. He repeats her side of view, that she only communicated via youth welfare service that I can only see my daughter in the future in her attendance and in the presence of a third person of her family, as my lawyer said "according to my clients understanding, your mother." and says "Reason for such strict rules are not explained."

Beside the letter to my wife, the youth welfare service will receive one too. He wants a statement from them, why they support the idea that I can only see my daughter in the future with a third-party. He is asking for an explanation, why this would be necessary (he told me, if he gets one, we get something to work with and things will be funny then, probably resulting in more ways we can go...defamation and stuff). He wants to know if they read all my reports and evaluated them or if they did just put them in the cabinet. He wants to know why the weelfare service didn't mediate to set up at least provisionally contacts/visitations until we shaped an agreement. He wants to know why they didn’t help, despite me asking for support.

2. My lawyer tells her that I want frequent contact and that this corresponds to the child’s well-being.

3. He tells our side of view. That it is acceptable for a transitional period that she is present during the contact (we both, and daughter), provided she facilitates an uninfluenced and untroubled contact between me and my daughter. He explains her that this would mean that she has to keep due distance and give me the time, peace and chance to interact with my daughter without any interference. He says "In particular, and this is very important for your daughter and corresponds to common contact rules, you shouldn’t distract her so that she has the chance to get to know her father. This is very important for her development."

4. He tells her that I suggest 3 x 1 hour per week for now, in the afternoon... either at her home, where I live or with good weather outside. The 3x per week is important for a baby as they quickly forget faces again.

5. Then he states that he is aware that she didn't tell me about the birth, that I had to learn via third-party. He explains her that we both have parental custody and that she also withholded relevant information related to our daughter. He demands for me, information about all check-ups, including copies of all medical reports. We want to know all attending pediatricians. We're asking if she noticed any troubles with health of the baby (despite wanting to know if our daughter is healthy, this is also a strategical question as she runs around and tells people that I stressed her so much, that it influenced the baby health... while she constantly had stress long before pregnancy. She had stress at day 1 I met her... she always knew herself it's related to her psychological issues).
In the end, he asks her for me to give me a copy of the birth certificate.

His letter is not written friendly, but not offending either... there is a bit of pressure in it. He actually asked me... he suggested to go with medium pressure for now... if things escalate, his writing style will change if I want that. He explained he can put much more pressure on her and even suggests it if things escalate in the long run... pressure is no good for people with personality disorder, he said... it will make them escalate, and at the same time makes them do tons of mistakes and judges or court will see that then.

[babyducks]

Then you actually know how that is. You've been in a very similar situation.

Yeah, for a while there my Ex's behavior was just one step short of stalking.   Every time I turned around there she was.    I had seasons tickets for a local sports club,   so at certain days and times it was obvious where I was going to be.   She was often there too, one section away from where my seats were.   My favorite stores, parks, libraries,  suddenly they were hers too.   Even if she had to travel across town to get there.   All while telling everyone we knew how frightened she was of me.   

People here say that pwBPD crave the attention and drama, even negative attention or drama.   It did seem that way to me,  negative engagement seemed to meet her needs in some way that is hard to explain.   I guess it fulfilled her internal dialogue of being the victim or being 'unfairly treated'.

But I am still anxious... as much as I want to see our baby or child regularly, I think it will constantly throw me back when I see my wife.

I'm not going to tell you it will be easy to see your wife for a while.   because frankly it's not true and you wouldn't believe me if I did.  still I am equally convinced you can figure out ways to manage it.     at first it will be trial and error, learning what to avoid and where to set limits.   it will be learning what makes you more comfortable.    and what to do to help yourself when you get uncomfortable.

two weeks ago I ran into my Ex during a social event.   with the flow of people moving into the event I couldn't avoid speaking to my Ex,  so we exchanged about 5 cordial words and I went on my way.   was it wonderful, not particularly.   but it wasn't horrible either.   it was more like,   ehhhh here's this thing I have to do, like going to the dentist.  I wish I didn't have to talk to her, but I also wish I didn't have to go to the dentist.   

But I am off topic again (it's strange how everything reminds me of our relationship).

Your brain is trying to make sense of the experience you have just been through.    there is a lot to process, much of it confusing.    processing is okay, ruminating not so much.   how to tell the difference between healthy processing and damaging rumination could fill books.    and I suspect it is different for each of us.      perhaps you could start to think about drawing boundaries about how much you process and when and where you process?    they always say boundaries are for us.   they protect us.   and they do.  we can draw boundaries around things to keep us safe.

there was once a guy here who had the same traumatic relationship we've all experienced and he wrote about being stuck in rumination.   He said when he caught himself ruminating, he would say (out loud)   Not Your Turn, Its My Turn.    He was turning his thinking away from his Ex, and back toward himself.   I think that was brilliant.   

I think what I meant was that she (or her brain) seems to have difficulties to keep the black split going 

well of course.   When my Ex ended our relationship, she insisted on a cooling off period, (because things were so volatile) and then when we saw each other to start to figure out property and possessions, what did she want?    To hug and cuddle and get physical.         

another example of how I was little more than an object, playing a role to help explain and manage her emotions.   I'm not sure that she really saw me as much more than sustenance to fuel her.   its the psychological equivalent of remora fish.

... but truth told, it's not just her... I looked for contact too when possible.

it's like an addiction in a way, isn't it?   we recognize that it's not good for us, but we keep going back.   its strangely exhilarating.   here is the relationship we think is going to save us, but it's like riding a tiger, amazing for the seconds we manage it but deadly when it goes wrong.

  He actually asked me... he suggested to go with medium pressure for now... if things escalate, his writing style will change if I want that. He explained he can put much more pressure on her and even suggests it if things escalate in the long run... pressure is no good for people with personality disorder, he said... it will make them escalate, and at the same time makes them do tons of mistakes and judges or court will see that then.

It sounds like you have found a good lawyer.   excellent.   good job.   continue to follow his advice.   

'ducks