It's incredible how manipulative they can be

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I'm not sure if this is on the right board, so feel free to move it if not.

We went to trial two years ago and it ended with a good outcome for me, but that process was a nightmare. Things have been relatively uneventful - in a good way - until recently, when my D told me that my ex's stepson and stepdaughter sexually abused my young daughter. As is the case in many of these situations, there's a lot of he-said, she-said. All I know is what my daughter told me, but I fully believe her.

Somehow my ex was able to completely hook the children's services investigator and convince her that despite living in the same home two days per week, it wasn't possible for any abuse to have taken place. Now my ex is going full throttle after me and attacking my reputation and saying I made the whole thing up and coached our daughter to say this happened, and threatening to take custody from me as a result.

I'm very scared for my D's safety when she's with her mom because her mom wants her to continue living in the same home with the kids that abused her, and I obviously don't want to lose the custody I have earned. Any tips from anyone here about what to do in a situation where your ex has hooked a key player in a case?

[alleyesonme]

I'm not sure if this is on the right board, so feel free to move it if not.

We went to trial two years ago and it ended with a good outcome for me, but that process was a nightmare. Things have been relatively uneventful - in a good way - until recently, when my D told me that my ex's stepson and stepdaughter sexually abused my young daughter. As is the case in many of these situations, there's a lot of he-said, she-said. All I know is what my daughter told me, but I fully believe her.

Somehow my ex was able to completely hook the children's services investigator and convince her that despite living in the same home two days per week, it wasn't possible for any abuse to have taken place. Now my ex is going full throttle after me and attacking my reputation and saying I made the whole thing up and coached our daughter to say this happened, and threatening to take custody from me as a result.

I'm very scared for my D's safety when she's with her mom because her mom wants her to continue living in the same home with the kids that abused her, and I obviously don't want to lose the custody I have earned. Any tips from anyone here about what to do in a situation where your ex has hooked a key player in a case?

[Husband2014]

This is why I’m so petrified of divorcing my wife. I know I will have at least 50% custody but have no idea how she will manipulate them or do when I'm not around.

[Tangled mangled]

I'm not sure if this is on the right board, so feel free to move it if not.

We went to trial two years ago and it ended with a good outcome for me, but that process was a nightmare. Things have been relatively uneventful - in a good way - until recently, when my D told me that my ex's stepson and stepdaughter sexually abused my young daughter. As is the case in many of these situations, there's a lot of he-said, she-said. All I know is what my daughter told me, but I fully believe her.

Somehow my ex was able to completely hook the children's services investigator and convince her that despite living in the same home two days per week, it wasn't possible for any abuse to have taken place. Now my ex is going full throttle after me and attacking my reputation and saying I made the whole thing up and coached our daughter to say this happened, and threatening to take custody from me as a result.

I'm very scared for my D's safety when she's with her mom because her mom wants her to continue living in the same home with the kids that abused her, and I obviously don't want to lose the custody I have earned. Any tips from anyone here about what to do in a situation where your ex has hooked a key player in a case?

I’m so sorry to hear about this. I can’t imagine how helpless this makes feel. You know the right thing to do but doing it may jeopardise your parenting time.

I wonder if you can go about this by focusing on your daughters instead. Getting school involved ( I can imagine school is aware) . Getting therapy for your daughter and addressing this horrible turn of events. It’s every parent’s worse nightmare to know that their child got SA. But it’s even 100x worse to watch your child being gaslit and manipulated, invalidating this traumatic event.

My mum is an u BPD and I remember something similar happened to my younger siblings but from a neighbours child. I remember acting to protect my siblings and was very mad that my mum continued to be friends with this neighbour whose son  had SA my siblings. She maintained that the event be swept under the carpet to suit her needs.

I’m so sorry for the situation you are in. I just wonder if there’s a a way to get your daughters voice heard. Either  the older daughter or the one involved. School guidance counsellors or therapist or any other professional. Silencing their voices like your ex is doing is the worst way to handle this and this what’s going to hurt the children in the years to come.
Take care of yourself and know that you are doing your best and have done nothing wrong in speaking up

[kells76]

Is there any kind of "safety plan" or supervision requirements in place for when your D is around those kids?

I have heard about similar situations where the child is permitted to be in the house or area with the abuser but the abuser must be supervised at all times and not alone with the child.

Is there a way to get that requirement plus require documentation that it is followed, with consequences if it isn't?

I know that what you want to do above everything else is get your D out of there. I cannot imagine the stress you are under, and at the same time, I hear you on not wanting to inadvertently make things worse through a reaction.

TM had some good suggestions, too; if you know the main investigator is biased, seek out other professionals in your D's life who will advocate for her and monitor her.

I cannot imagine any opposition to putting your D in counseling being taken seriously. Is that something you can look into?

[alleyesonme]

Sorry for the delay here.

To clarify, I only have one daughter - she's the one that told me what happened. My ex has a step-son and step-daughter, who both abused my daughter.

My D has been in counseling for awhile now, and her counselor asked her about this incident. There were some similarities and some differences between what my D told me vs. what she told her counselor, but what she revealed to the counselor was still clearly sexual abuse, although not quite as obscene as what she told me.

I found out that those differences are the main reason that Children's Services ultimately found it to be unsubstantiated. Despite an abundance of recent research proving that actual child sexual abuse victims frequently change their stories, deny that it happened altogether, or recant at some point, Children's Services refuses to go above unsubstantiated unless the child tells the exact same story in every interview. I presented that research to Children's Services, and it still didn't make a difference.

Once Children's Services made that decision, my ex refused to agree to any sort of restrictions or supervision regarding our D being in the presence of those two kids, and her L started putting immense pressure on me with regard to custody. 

The school knows about the situation, believes our D, and was stunned and disgusted to find out how Children's Services handled it. And now my D has told me that my ex lectured her about how if she tells anyone when something happens, other people can get in trouble. It's a truly broken system that my ex was somehow able to manipulate.

[SaltyDawg]

alleyesonme,

  I am so sorry you had to go through all of that crap.  My own D had a brief encounter with a ASPD.  Hers was founded; however, the ASPD is already behind bars for life on a different charge, so we did not pursue the case, unless he gets out on appeal (unlikely, as the SCUS has rejected all of his appeals).

   Since your ex was able to manipulate the system, due to lack of evidence, you need to request that the counselor coach your daughter on how to document it, should it happen again, as past behaviors are indicative of future ones.  If you do the coaching it could be misinterpreted as being disparaging of your ex.  However, if your D wants to talk about it, answer her questions without direct reference to your ex in a manner consistent with your D's safety (calling 911 and recording).

   I sorry you have to put your D at jeopardy; however, given the circumstances you describe, the least worst way (best way) to deal with this is to arm your D with knowledge of saying "NO" and when that boundary is not respected, what to do about it.  Most kids have a cell phone, make sure she has one with a lot of memory, and let her use it to record them if things go south.  Also use it to call 911 if she is being sexually assaulted, they will record the call including background noise on the line.

   Try not to let the L intimidate you on the custody arrangement; however, do utilize the school resources (guidance counselors) to your benefit.

   Also, if you haven't already get the book "Splitting" by Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger as it has invaluable tips on how to deal with some of what you said, and there are a couple of other books on this topic as well if you are interested, lmk.

   Take care with self-care.

SD

[kells76]

Sorry for the delay here.

To clarify, I only have one daughter - she's the one that told me what happened. My ex has a step-son and step-daughter, who both abused my daughter.

My D has been in counseling for awhile now, and her counselor asked her about this incident. There were some similarities and some differences between what my D told me vs. what she told her counselor, but what she revealed to the counselor was still clearly sexual abuse, although not quite as obscene as what she told me.

I found out that those differences are the main reason that Children's Services ultimately found it to be unsubstantiated. Despite an abundance of recent research proving that actual child sexual abuse victims frequently change their stories, deny that it happened altogether, or recant at some point, Children's Services refuses to go above unsubstantiated unless the child tells the exact same story in every interview. I presented that research to Children's Services, and it still didn't make a difference.

Once Children's Services made that decision, my ex refused to agree to any sort of restrictions or supervision regarding our D being in the presence of those two kids, and her L started putting immense pressure on me with regard to custody. 

The school knows about the situation, believes our D, and was stunned and disgusted to find out how Children's Services handled it. And now my D has told me that my ex lectured her about how if she tells anyone when something happens, other people can get in trouble. It's a truly broken system that my ex was somehow able to manipulate.

I'm so sorry things went that way, for you and your D.

However, it's really, really good that the school is on your D's side.

Is your D in counseling with the school counselor or with a different one? If a different C, does the school counselor know about what happened? Does D's counselor interact with you? with D's mom? with both? What's your sense of D's counselor's understanding of the family dynamics at play?

Do you still have a lawyer?

What is the current parenting time schedule?

...

This may be the start of a marathon -- but I'm seeing pieces you can move into play now that hopefully can make your D's life better. The school is an ally, D has a counselor, and even if you don't (still) have a L, you can get one. Shining light onto what happened and sharing it with those allies, and networking them with each other, may be a good starting place.

Yes, your ex's L will say all kinds of stuff to you -- at your ex's behest. Her L gets paid to do mostly what your ex wants. So her L putting pressure on you to back off isn't a statement of how things would go for you legally in your area, it's a statement about what your ex paid her L to say. Don't be intimidated by the demands from her L. Work with your own, assertively. Come up with a plan, even if it's a long term plan with lots of steps. This isn't going to be solved in one email exchange or one report, but it can build.

...

Have you been able to reassure your D that telling the truth with you is OK and she won't get in trouble with you for telling the truth?

[ForeverDad]

When I married my ex-spouse she was young but at the time didn't have what I concluded a decade later were BPD traits.  That developed over time.  But as her stories came out I do recall thinking I'd saved her from her childhood environment.

The earliest incident I recall was a week before the wedding.  I had visited and her SF got enraged that she'd left a box of wedding glasses on the table.  When SF started waving a broom, I stepped in.  I recall quoting the passage that "women were to be assigned honor as weaker vessels, feminine ones" (1 Peter 3:7) I was shocked.

Eventually she shared that in her mid-teens she had tried to report to trusted adults but all she could admit was that she's been beaten with a belt, which she had, but she simply could not bring herself to tell everything that had been happening to her and her sister for so many years.  Her first effort was to share the least sensitive piece.

Sadly, her SF was asked and he minimized it as "you know how kids are..."  Nothing came of it.  She shut up after that.  The mother had even told the girls that if they did something with her H, the one getting the check, then she would kick them out.  Talk about blaming.

I mention this because you were right to highlight the research about different people getting slightly different stories from children.  If it is unresolved in youth then it certainly can sabotage their adult lives too.