I could really use some opinions on a text exchange with uBPDW

[h777]

Sorry for the wall of text here.  But I could use an assessment of how I dealt with this.  

The back-story is that I used to lead a very active lifestyle - sports, gym et al. and was very social.  Constant pressure from my uBPDW ( I had no idea what BPD was back then) caused me to gradually over the course of 2-3 years give up all of my friends, my family and also my healthy physical lifestyle.  Same sad story as many in here.

 

Recently my uBPDW has tried again to get back into shape.  I've been exceedingly supportive (happily - I want her to feel better about herself).  :)espite financial hardship I bought her a $1000 piece of excercise equipment, she's had a few gym memberships - I've driven here there from time-to-time, she attends excercise classes at 3 different locations.  I've always been encouraging and upbeat, and helpful.

I'm 39 now and spent about 10 years inactive, so 2 years ago I decided to get back into shape as I noticed with age that my metabolism was slowing down. Even without working out, I've always been quite fit and never had a problem with weight but I noticed that I'm getting older so I've adjusted my eating habits and have begun doing regular pushups/situps etc.  I'm in much better physical condition now but still have a huge array of nagging aches and pains from the many broken bones and sports injuries I had as a kid.

So I decided to go to a type of hot yoga class (Bikram yoga) as my uBPDW introduced me to it 12 years ago at the beginning of our relationship (she's a certified yoga teacher though never practices it anymore).  When I did it 12 years ago most of my joint pain vanished in less than a month.

It's important to note that I cheated on my uBPDW twice.  10 years ago with a close friend of hers, and once in 2009 ... .  It's absolutely horrible and I'm not proud of it, but I did.  I told her about both 2 years ago.

I will never make excuses for something I've done.  I did it ... . but from the moment my first child was born 10 years ago our relationship went from sex 2-4 times/day to completely sexless.  It has been sexless for a decade.  Combined with that, my uBPDW  accuses me of infidelity probably 1000 times every year - literally all day, every day and is horribly verbally abusive about every aspect of my character.  Combined with the flat-out rejection from her.  Year ago I was in tears a lot - a grown man in tears, a lot - yeah.    Somehow my uBPDW doesn't recognize this ... .  doesn't think that she has accused me of infidelity (except when warranted because I'm such a sex-addicted sicko of course ) nor ... . and I mean this ... . does she acknowledge that we have a sexless relationship. I'm not kidding.  We have not kissed on the lips since 2005, yet she still denies this.  

To her ... . my infidelity is that classic story of a pure-as-snow wife burdened with a charismatic, narcissistic,  wayward husband who can't keep his pants on.  She will not be dissuaded of this. 


I guess I'm asking this:

1.  How did I do with this text-message exchange with my wife?  Any suggestions on how to improve it?

2.  If anyone wants to say "good job" for going to yoga like I've been meaning to do for 12 years - it would mean a lot.  It's hard to have someone so actively discouraging you and it's tough enough getting out of bed at 5:45am as it is.

Thanks a lot,

h777

Here's the text exchange

(I leave at 6am for my yoga class - she texts right away)

uBPDW - (sarcasm) thanks h777 Awesome. Enjoy Yourself (of course you will, that's what it's all about!)

me - grow up

uBPDW - Me? Right.  I'm the one with the problems?  This is how it is.  Always about your needs and desires first, above everything. Fine.  Just admit it to yourself.  You left me hardly able to walk so that you can "go to yoga" and D10  totally upset but I'm supposed to put up with your ~ for the sake of the kids?

uBPDW - I'm not stupid h777  This isn't "yoga"  it's glaringly obvious

me - I understand that you feel that I consistently put my needs first.  You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.  I don't share your opinion.  Have a nice morning.

uBPDW - I'm sure you are  This is exactly how you act when you cheat.  if you think your kids are stupid too, fine.  Understand that they're old enough to get that something's really wrong when mum can hardly walk and is suffering and their dad is gone (to yoga! - all of a sudden, right!).  They're not stupid either.  And they deserve better than that.  We agreed to work together but you're reneging.  Of course!  Enjoy "yoga" hope she's worth it, you selfish ass

uBPDW - Also.  You know what's so ~ing ridiculous and totally insulting?  That you just can't stick to jock-ho or corporate girls.  That you need to find this, and pretend it's real.  Hail Yoga Guru Bikram !  A fake for a bunch of ~ing rich fakes.  Awesome.

me - Again. Our opinions differ.  Good morning.

[I go to the 1.5 hour yoga class]

uBPDW -  It's not an opinion.  Everyone saw me hobbling to the school, the kids included.  It's not an "opinion" that dad all of a sudden thinks "yoga"" is so important.  What a joke and what a sickness.  So fake.

uBPDW - Ignore me. OK.

uBPDW - go act all kind and good (or just laugh with your dirty whore about how FUNNY it is).  I'm not doing this. I just won't.

[I return from the yoga class and see that she's told me she will divorce me in the previous text - a common threat from her].

me - wow

uBPDW - my thought exactly

me - I love and support you and hate to see you in so much pain.  I hope you can have a nice morning and day

uBPDW - Your support and love are *amazing*  You're so full of ~ it's unbelievable.  How about you don't worry me at all anymore ok?  I'm good. Thanks.  You've set me up completely and I'm SO ~ing tired of being your joke.  ~ you.

uBPDW - You think I'm a sucker because I've been nice to you?  I know that there's no chance in hell you'd give me the same kindness it it'd been me who cheated with your friend.  The thing is I'm not a sucker.  Or stupid.  You guys are just asss.  Most men aren't like that.  You're just so used to taking and taking and taking because you've been empty for your whole life.  ~ all of you.  I'm not doing it.

uBPDW - you've deceived me and utterly shamed me.  Ok annnnd now you want to throw it in my face with "yoga"?  You'll never be happy unless I'm completely useless.  I'm not stupid.  I've been good enough to give you a chance (and I love my kids and want them to be happy).  :)on't "wow" me.  ~ you.

me - You deserve your right to an opinion.  I care about you deeply and am truly sad to see you hurting.  I don't feel your response to me going to yoga is appropriate.  Respectfully, I will not discuss this any further today.  I hope you have a nice day and your body, heart, and mind can find peace.  I love you.

uBPDW - I can't do this.  If I really thought you were "going to yoga" I would be happy.  You've chosen the Ashley Madison of yoga and you're a serial cheater.  I don't know how stupid you think I am,or how much you think I'm willing to bear but I just can't take it. Nor should I.  Sit there and try to placate me with kind words, your actions/lifestyle choices don't match them. I don't want your ~ing pity, I really don't need it.  You're the pathetic one.  I'm not interested in holding this charade up anymore, you've made it clear to me what matters to you (YOU) and at what cost (US).  Fine.  Meet a new Bikram yoga girl and ~ her in the hot room for all I care.  I'm sure she's awesome


... .  so that's the exchange. Any thoughts?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[wdone]

i'm afraid to even touch this one.

she sounds hurt.

i have a friend whose SO cheated on her a year ago, and she is wondering if she will ever be over it, and is recognizing that for her sake, (and his), she may have to break it off and leave him.  she said she just doesn't trust him, and knows it's not fair to him to stay with him and not trust him. 

tricky dilemma.

i would say that, if my bf was saying things like your so was, i would (hopefully) either not respond, or validate his feelings i.e. "you sound upset. it sounds like you're having a hard time trusting. i am not cheating on you, and i hear that you don't believe me."

i think it takes a long time when a partner has cheated. i have not been through this myself.  have you two been to couples counseling to work through it at all?

good for you for taking care of yourself by going to yoga.

[h777]

Thank you wdone

Thing is ... .  this is how she's been our entire relationship.  She's accused me of infidelity with practically every female I've ever met.  Including girls who've wanted to be my girlfriend in the past but I didn't have feelings for them, every.single.one of her friends, two of my three sisters, passing strangers, Everyone.  This was the case before I cheated - in my weaker moments I would say it was the absolute number one factor that drove me to cheat.

I love my children and need to live with them.  My D10 is special-needs and requires much more effort and attention than other children her age.  My duty and goal in life is to take the best care of my children that I can.  Unfortunately that means staying in a loveless relationship. I can, at least for now, live without marital love, support, sex - I truly can.  But I need to counterbalance that with some sort of actualization - be it exercise, friendship, activity/hobby.  I can't find a way to navigate through her outrageous trust issues.  Obviously cheating was the absolute worst thing I could have done - our relationship's probably a write-off.

She refuses to go to counselling ... .  says that she is without flaw in any way.  She professes to be of a rare moral purity that only the great ascetics could aspire to.  She believes that I'm sick and sexually-addicted - that I'm a narcissist.  I'm truly not.  The sexual addiction accusation is outrageous.  I'm a good-looking, charismatic person and I've had sex 5 times in the past decade.  

What I have been guilty of is up until a year or two ago I've been codependent, couldn't set boundaries, and was a classic caretaker.  

I could never understand how my wife who adored me, was unfathomably jealous but adored me - could at the turn of a dime completely reverse and find me so repulsive in every way - physically, socially, spiritually.    I understand it now ... . and it doesn't affect me like it did.   But I need to steer my uBPDW like I steer my children ... .  guide her to good choices, to clear thoughts, using language she can understand.  I'm just having trouble doing it in the circumstances.

Thanks for the morale-boost re yoga btw ... .  I know I totally begged for it () but it really does mean a lot.  

[briefcase]

You have a lot of going on here.  The easiest part is probably the critique of the texting "conversation."  When the conversation, any conversation, devolves to name calling, raging, excessive swearing, and general dysregulation - its time to no longer participate in the conversation. Take a "time out" by letting her know that you will talk to her when things are more calm in an hour, after class, whenever - just state a good time.  Then end the conversation.  Turn off your phone if necessary.

In this case, you engaged her and JADEed right off the bat ("grow up".  She was already triggered and the conversation basically had no chance after that.  Texting is not a good way to communicate about important things because its a clipped style of communication, tone is hard to "hear," and there is no non-verbal communication.  For example, the tone I "heard" in this was not a pleasant one:

me - I understand that you feel that I consistently put my needs first.  You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.  I don't share your opinion.  Have a nice morning.

If you want to talk to her when she's feeling triggered like this, I recommend you read the Lessons, and focus on ways to not make these things worse, validation, and boundaries. 

A trickier part of this is the trust issue. Unfortunately, your wife has grounds to be skeptical of your whereabouts and reason to not trust you. Whatever the reasons, you did cheat on her.  Are you guys working with a marriage counsellor to find ways to rebuild trust?  You might have to forgoe some privacy for a while and allow a high degree of transparency to your activities to rebuild some trust.  Suddenly changing your behavior and getting up and disappearing (her perspective) for a few hours in the morning is probably coming off as suspicious to her.

I normally strongly advocate that we do not modify our behaviors to try to satisfy their anxieties, but in this case your biggest task may be rebuilding some baseline trust in the relationship.  Can you do yoga at home in the morning, at least until she figures out that really is whay you are doing at 5:00 a.m.?

I commend you for taking care of yourself, and hope you keep doing it.

Good luck. 

[bruceli]

First thing that came to my mind is a quote from a thread below this morning... .  From the movie war games... .  The only way to win the game is not to play... .    It has done wonders for me with my ex AND present SO's.

[h777]

I try not to play the game - as in the war game analogy ... .  but it is played all.the.time by my uBPDW.  She constantly complains that I will never talk to her.  She's always in attack-mode so I'm constantly (respectfully) disengaging.  



briefcase ... .  thank you for the interpretation of the tone ... . I find I have to construct nearly every sentence with my uBPDW to remove any sort of alternate meaning that could ever be construed.  I'm often amazed at the negative interpretations my wife is able to extract from the most benign comments.  

As for the "grow up" ... . I knew that was a big mistake.  I'm usually far more balanced than that and can stop from being dismissive and insulting.   Seeing that weakness and lack of control in myself was one of the reasons I posted today.  Realized I needed some sort of help.


For the major issue of re-establishing trust, I think that re-establishing is the wrong word.  I'm convinced she can't trust.  Is that a BPD trait that others have experienced?  I have not been able to figure out a way around it.  

Since the infidelity came to light I've worked on what I believe to be the basics:

A. complete transparency of email etc - this has been the case for 12 years.  she has misread many emails which I've received (most recently a text from my male VP asking me if I "closed the deal", which she interpreted as infidelity rather than business).  She also "discovered" that on my birthday my office made a cake for me - which was another sign of infidelity (there is one female in my office of 12, therefore I have cheated).  It's quite possible that this has damaged trust more than promoted it though I know it's typically the best thing to do.

B.  I did yoga at home for about 1 month, asked her for a yoga book she had and made it clear that I'd been working to get into 'yoga -shape' prior to attending a class

C. Attend the 6am yoga class - it's a very unusual time for someone to cheat?

D.  Have demonstrated clear understanding and change in my relating with and to her over the past year or so.  Made all sorts of material amends such as huge renovation project on the house.  Been tremendously kind and supportive while learning to identify my boundaries, which has made our communications more secure.

E.  I don't know what else I can do ... . perhaps never speak to anyone or do anything again?  Obviously not an option.  I won't be a better man to her if that happens.  It's not possible.  It's been two years since I told her of the infidelity.  For the 10 years prior when in her mind I hadn't cheated she acted the same way - or in the earlier days when she might have still cared about me as a man - much much worse.  If she has never been rational in this way - why would I expect her to be rational now?

... .  on a side note, for the past year she's been sexting with an old flame who lives overseas now  - making sure he knows that she's saving herself for him.  

Counselling is not an option for her ... .  she constantly says she is 100% morally pure and "better" than me.  Therefore any issues with our relationship are 100% my fault.   

[briefcase]

False accusations of infidelity are a common problem.  So, yes, trust issues are huge in these relationships anyway.

Right now, I think your energy is best spent focusing on your "side of the street" in the relationship.  Learn the subtle art of emotional validation - maybe its something you can meditate upon as you practice yoga. Be mendful of opportunities to validate the emotions of other people.  Listen for the emotion underneath the words, and then acknowledge it.  We have a great workshop on validation in the Lessons.  I especially like Dr. Fruzetti's video on validation.

When you are tired, frustrated or otherwise not feeling it, don't worry about emotional validation - just focus on not making things worse.  Avoid the JADE responses, take time outs, etc.

Let your wife be herself.  She has a right to her emotions, even if you don't get where they come from (she may not know herself).  

These are all things you can work on.  I can't say if any of this will save your marriage, but it will improve your life no matter what happens.  

   

[bruceli]

I try not to play the game - as in the war game analogy ... .  but it is played all.the.time by my uBPDW.  She constantly complains that I will never talk to her.  She's always in attack-mode so I'm constantly (respectfully) disengaging.  



briefcase ... .  thank you for the interpretation of the tone ... . I find I have to construct nearly every sentence with my uBPDW to remove any sort of alternate meaning that could ever be construed.  I'm often amazed at the negative interpretations my wife is able to extract from the most benign comments.  

As for the "grow up" ... . I knew that was a big mistake.  I'm usually far more balanced than that and can stop from being dismissive and insulting.   Seeing that weakness and lack of control in myself was one of the reasons I posted today.  Realized I needed some sort of help.


For the major issue of re-establishing trust, I think that re-establishing is the wrong word.  I'm convinced she can't trust.  Is that a BPD trait that others have experienced?  I have not been able to figure out a way around it.  

Since the infidelity came to light I've worked on what I believe to be the basics:

A. complete transparency of email etc - this has been the case for 12 years.  she has misread many emails which I've received (most recently a text from my male VP asking me if I "closed the deal", which she interpreted as infidelity rather than business).  She also "discovered" that on my birthday my office made a cake for me - which was another sign of infidelity (there is one female in my office of 12, therefore I have cheated).  It's quite possible that this has damaged trust more than promoted it though I know it's typically the best thing to do.

B.  I did yoga at home for about 1 month, asked her for a yoga book she had and made it clear that I'd been working to get into 'yoga -shape' prior to attending a class

C. Attend the 6am yoga class - it's a very unusual time for someone to cheat?

D.  Have demonstrated clear understanding and change in my relating with and to her over the past year or so.  Made all sorts of material amends such as huge renovation project on the house.  Been tremendously kind and supportive while learning to identify my boundaries, which has made our communications more secure.

E.  I don't know what else I can do ... . perhaps never speak to anyone or do anything again?  Obviously not an option.  I won't be a better man to her if that happens.  It's not possible.  It's been two years since I told her of the infidelity.  For the 10 years prior when in her mind I hadn't cheated she acted the same way - or in the earlier days when she might have still cared about me as a man - much much worse.  If she has never been rational in this way - why would I expect her to be rational now?

... .  on a side note, for the past year she's been sexting with an old flame who lives overseas now  - making sure he knows that she's saving herself for him.  

Counselling is not an option for her ... .  she constantly says she is 100% morally pure and "better" than me.  Therefore any issues with our relationship are 100% my fault.   

Hmmmm... .  If someone throws you a bal and you do not throw it back.  How will they be able to play with you?  No matter how inticing it is to throw the ball back, that is defend yourself, don't do it.  GAME OVER... .   She/he takes the ball and goes home.

[bruceli]

I will admit, in the begining, it is VERY hard not to throw the ball back.  Took me years.

[bruceli]

"She refuses to go to counselling ... .  says that she is without flaw in any way.  She professes to be of a rare moral purity that only the great ascetics could aspire to.  She believes that I'm sick and sexually-addicted - that I'm a narcissist."


Same here... .  so what I did was spin it around... .  I totally agreed with her 100%  said I was a sexually addicted Nacissist and needed her help to make me better through counseling and that it would help me and her if she could tell the T all about my MANY issues.  Got her into the door and she's still going.  Progress is slow but hey... .  it took her 50 years to get to this place and it ain't going to be corrected over night.

[SamsungUser86]

Thank you wdone

Thing is ... .  this is how she's been our entire relationship.  She's accused me of infidelity with practically every female I've ever met.  Including girls who've wanted to be my girlfriend in the past but I didn't have feelings for them, every.single.one of her friends, two of my three sisters, passing strangers, Everyone.  This was the case before I cheated - in my weaker moments I would say it was the absolute number one factor that drove me to cheat.

I love my children and need to live with them.  My D10 is special-needs and requires much more effort and attention than other children her age.  My duty and goal in life is to take the best care of my children that I can.  Unfortunately that means staying in a loveless relationship. I can, at least for now, live without marital love, support, sex - I truly can.  But I need to counterbalance that with some sort of actualization - be it exercise, friendship, activity/hobby.  I can't find a way to navigate through her outrageous trust issues.  Obviously cheating was the absolute worst thing I could have done - our relationship's probably a write-off.

She refuses to go to counselling ... .  says that she is without flaw in any way.  She professes to be of a rare moral purity that only the great ascetics could aspire to.  She believes that I'm sick and sexually-addicted - that I'm a narcissist.  I'm truly not.  The sexual addiction accusation is outrageous.  I'm a good-looking, charismatic person and I've had sex 5 times in the past decade.  

What I have been guilty of is up until a year or two ago I've been codependent, couldn't set boundaries, and was a classic caretaker.  

I could never understand how my wife who adored me, was unfathomably jealous but adored me - could at the turn of a dime completely reverse and find me so repulsive in every way - physically, socially, spiritually.    I understand it now ... . and it doesn't affect me like it did.   But I need to steer my uBPDW like I steer my children ... .  guide her to good choices, to clear thoughts, using language she can understand.  I'm just having trouble doing it in the circumstances.

Thanks for the morale-boost re yoga btw ... .  I know I totally begged for it () but it really does mean a lot.  

I don't know what to say about this to be honest. I read the entire 1st post and was thinking that if I had cheated on my fiance twice I would have just left her because being a man myself and being tempted, men cheat for a reason. So if you are now complaining about a sexless marriage, and considering the position you are in where it sounds like you will be paying for what you did for a lifetime, I would highly suggest some serious therapy or get out of this. She may have BPD which is only exasperating the entire situation, but in your specific case my opinion would be to leave the marriage and end it... .  for HER sake.

I say that because I was the same as you. Before my fiance and I got together I was working out 4-5 times a week, and was getting ripped. Now i'm 60 pounds overweight and have no friends although i'm now changing that by asserting myself better. Your position shows me that you have some codependent problems which allows you to be so affected by what your wife things about the most trivial things. If you say you are going to gym, or do yoga then you go and do yoga. You have to remember to take care of yourself first. However, your situation is a little bit daunting for me to comment on more fully because you've cheated twice which would make your wife say those things to do even if she didn't have BPD. Rarely will a healthy, well-balanced female put up with her husband's infidelity twice if she has any self respect. So, I don't know what to tell you. For me, my fiance has been cheated on so many times that she even accused me of being gay with my buddies because one of her EX's cheated on her with another man and then came out gay. We have been together for four years and I have flirted at the very most with other women, but never cheated. So for me to have to put up with her accusations in our relationship, but to have never actually cheated on her... .  must make it 10 times more complicated for you.

Only one of two options remains here... .  either you two get some serious therapy going or a break might be best to get your thoughts in order which is a major problem in of itself because of her abandonment issues... .  so yeah... .  idk what else to say but good luck.

[SamsungUser86]

Thank you wdone

Thing is ... .  this is how she's been our entire relationship.  She's accused me of infidelity with practically every female I've ever met.  Including girls who've wanted to be my girlfriend in the past but I didn't have feelings for them, every.single.one of her friends, two of my three sisters, passing strangers, Everyone.  This was the case before I cheated - in my weaker moments I would say it was the absolute number one factor that drove me to cheat.

I love my children and need to live with them.  My D10 is special-needs and requires much more effort and attention than other children her age.  My duty and goal in life is to take the best care of my children that I can.  Unfortunately that means staying in a loveless relationship. I can, at least for now, live without marital love, support, sex - I truly can.  But I need to counterbalance that with some sort of actualization - be it exercise, friendship, activity/hobby.  I can't find a way to navigate through her outrageous trust issues.  Obviously cheating was the absolute worst thing I could have done - our relationship's probably a write-off.

She refuses to go to counselling ... .  says that she is without flaw in any way.  She professes to be of a rare moral purity that only the great ascetics could aspire to.  She believes that I'm sick and sexually-addicted - that I'm a narcissist.  I'm truly not.  The sexual addiction accusation is outrageous.  I'm a good-looking, charismatic person and I've had sex 5 times in the past decade.  

What I have been guilty of is up until a year or two ago I've been codependent, couldn't set boundaries, and was a classic caretaker.  

I could never understand how my wife who adored me, was unfathomably jealous but adored me - could at the turn of a dime completely reverse and find me so repulsive in every way - physically, socially, spiritually.    I understand it now ... . and it doesn't affect me like it did.   But I need to steer my uBPDW like I steer my children ... .  guide her to good choices, to clear thoughts, using language she can understand.  I'm just having trouble doing it in the circumstances.

Thanks for the morale-boost re yoga btw ... .  I know I totally begged for it () but it really does mean a lot.  

I don't know what to say about this to be honest. I read the entire 1st post and was thinking that if I had cheated on my fiance twice I would have just left her because being a man myself and being tempted, men cheat for a reason. So if you are now complaining about a sexless marriage, and considering the position you are in where it sounds like you will be paying for what you did for a lifetime, I would highly suggest some serious therapy or get out of this. She may have BPD which is only exasperating the entire situation, but in your specific case my opinion would be to leave the marriage and end it... .  for HER sake.

I say that because I was the same as you. Before my fiance and I got together I was working out 4-5 times a week, and was getting ripped. Now i'm 60 pounds overweight and have no friends although i'm now changing that by asserting myself better. Your position shows me that you have some codependent problems which allows you to be so affected by what your wife things about the most trivial things. If you say you are going to gym, or do yoga then you go and do yoga. You have to remember to take care of yourself first. However, your situation is a little bit daunting for me to comment on more fully because you've cheated twice which would make your wife say those things to do even if she didn't have BPD. Rarely will a healthy, well-balanced female put up with her husband's infidelity twice if she has any self respect. So, I don't know what to tell you. For me, my fiance has been cheated on so many times that she even accused me of being gay with my buddies because one of her EX's cheated on her with another man and then came out gay. We have been together for four years and I have flirted at the very most with other women, but never cheated. So for me to have to put up with her accusations in our relationship, but to have never actually cheated on her... .  must make it 10 times more complicated for you.

Only one of two options remains here... .  either you two get some serious therapy going or a break might be best to get your thoughts in order which is a major problem in of itself because of her abandonment issues... .  so yeah... .  idk what else to say but good luck.

I want to apologize to OP for responding what i did. I know this specific section of the boards is for improvements, but reading that just made me think it might be best for both of you.

I do wish you success in your marriage since you choose to stay in it, but I do hope you consider what I have said. Seek heavy therapy and let your wife know how important it is for us. I can't imagine what it must be like to live with that pressure on your shoulders that she is constantly questioning you, but at least you seem to have a decent attitude about the situation. I have been through hell and back with my fiance but she is active in her therapy, her self care, and as am I with my problems. We are learning to communicate better and I am learning to assert my needs and making sure my needs are taken care of. I'm working out more, and even dancing at home to Dance Central on our Xbox Kinect and sweating my butt off. I'm also reconnecting with friends now too... .  so my suggestion would be to remember your self care.

[jedicloak]

I feel briefcase (among others) made important contributions to this thread that I agree with.

Violated trust, under the best of circumstances is a lot of work to rebuild - and based on your admitted behaviors - her hurt (expressed as anger & rage) is justified in my opinion. However, trust can be rebuilt if the two people are willing to do the work. A Marriage & Family Therapist may be beneficial to you both.

Yes, you're in the doghouse, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't take care of yourself either. If Yoga helps, I say do it. Her anger is not about Yoga - it's about unresolved hurt.

As for the rest of it, I suggest reread the comments from briefcase above.

[h777]

Wow.  I'm still relatively new here and really can't tell you all enough how warm it feels to be supported like this.

The energy and effort you have taken to reply is much appreciated and I've gained from each response.

I know what I'm up against is a fool's challenge in many regards.  I just love my kids and really can just tune everything else out.  I see my wife as basically another child I need to raise.  After briefcase's comments I've started re-reading the lessons and it's been (and will be) a good refresher to steer me back on track.  There's a lot to learn ... .  subtleties of SET is something I'm particularly interested in.   Also re-energizing my commitment to not "play ball", which I've been successful in spurts thus far.

As far as therapy ... . I"d love to get it going somehow with her - but her buy-in simply is not there.  Bruceli, your strategy is intriguing - I've sort of attempted a modified version of that, but my wife is very much of the "deal with your own SH_T on your own and leave me out of it" opinion.  Perhaps there's hope, but not in the forseeable future.

A last question ... . I mentioned that I think of my wife as basically another daughter I need to take care of.  And I'm not sure how well that sits with me.  Obviously I'd like to have a wife, supporter, partner, etc ... . but I really can't imagine any of that happening with us.  In short, we're together for the kids - and we pull it off quite well, keeping them out of and away from most arguments we have. 

Do you think that notion ... . of the BPD as a child you need to take care of.  Love without expectation of return.  Give without receiving.  Etc.    Is that ok?  Cause that's all I can come up with as a strategy.  I won't make the mistake of completely neglecting myself (apart from 'needs' such as love, sex, security) and will find self-actualizing activities and friendships outside of the relationship.  But as far as how "we" are together, that's all I feel I can reasonably expect from her.  Any thoughts on that?

P.S.  Divorce would be an obvious answer but I truly feel its better for us to be together for our kids.

[Louise7777]

Hey h777!

I can only wonder how tough a marriage with a BPD can be. Its nice that you want to keep the marriage because of your kids. but please read the threads about people growing up with BPD parents. Its really damaging. From your words I understand you try to keep them out of the turmoil, but still, I think it would be worth reading.

You asked if its ok to consider your wife as a child. We cant answer that for you. Depends on what you consider a marriage should be. Im not justifying your behaviour on cheating, but I can understand it can be tough living in a sexless loveless marriage. I dont judge you.

i can only say focus on you. What are your needs and wishes. Get some therapy, I think that would be very helpful. So you´ll see things clearly. I feel you have been engulfed by her over the years, I have seen other cases like that... .  You forget your life to live according to her demands and desires. What caught my eye was the sexting shes doing now. As far as I know, she will use your cheating as am excuse to do whatever she wants. Is this something new or shes been flirting for years?

Take care of yourself! And keep up with the yoga

[jedicloak]

h777!

I can affirm how ridiculously, unimaginably, beyond true description, marriage can be with a partner who has BPD. I never could have understood what all this is about truly, unless I was going through it too. Experience is worth a million words.

I missed the part about her sexting... .  oh dear.

I remember something Dr. Phil said once, "Kids would rather be from a broken home, than live in one." I happen to think he is very savvy and can see why he would say that, having lived with an uBPD mother and a Schizoid PD father... .  the damage that I endured to my personality contributed to the many messes I have lived through as an adult. Yes, it's my responsibility to learn new ways of being and coping, but their impact on my life cannot be overstated either.

Like h777!, I too feel like I am in many ways raising a child - an emotional one anyway - and that is a romance killer for me. I haven't sorted out how to manage all this, but I can say, that by taking care of myself in everyway and using the tools and feedback on this forum and attending a 12 step program... .  I feel significantly better.

[h777]

It's 4:30am and I've just been awoken (we sleep in separate rooms) by a text from my wife saying she knows I'm up and I"m cheating on her right now with some "20 year old yoga slut".

I was asleep of course ... .  she probably heard the cat move in the night = I am cheating. 

This sort of thing has been a constant throughout our relationship - incessant and constant.  Keep in mind that it has been this way for years and years before there was any infidelity in the marriage.  It's not a result of the cheating.  I truly appreciate the respectful attitude you all have shown with regards to the fact I cheated.  I understand it brings up a visceral reaction in people and I appreciate the non-judgmental attitude I've received.  Believe me, I consider it an extremely weak act and I never in my life imagined I'd be a cheater.  I've pulled myself out of the depression I was in for years while I was so confused and trying to come to terms with why I was being treated so badly by my wife.  Like many, Walking on Eggshells and this site was like a magic key to the mystery and was a tremendous relief to finally know what the heck was going on.  I won't cheat again.  It's daunting to think that it's quite possible I'll never have sex again for the rest of my life, but I won't cheat.  I was engulfed by her for many years - completely wrong-headed thinking, care-taking, conceding, no boundaries.  I truly feel I'm over that stage now, and I'm quite proud of my accomplishment in that area.

Christina ... . thank you for your comments ... .   I definitely don't think a marriage should be like this at all.  The day my daughter was born my wife immediately painted me black.  completely rejected me beginning on the very day our commitment to each other became lifelong.  I spent years holding my tiny little girls in my arms, knowing that their very existence was dooming me to living a life with a horribly abusive person.   As far as the effect of children growing up with a BPD mother, that is a HUGE reason I would need to stay.   The courts would not award me full-custody.  Not a chance.  In fact in our relationship my wife has constantly threatened to "take away" the kids from me (both before she knew about infidelity and after I admitted it).  Teenagers are difficult to anyone.  D7 and D10 will be there soon and I'll be needed as a constant 'buffer' between my wife and the children for those years.

As for the sexting ... . it's new and is part of a progression that began about 5 years ago (she found out about my infidelity 2 years ago).  Despite complete rejection to me (saying things like "I cum every day, and you're never there!" - nice :'() my wife always held a facade of commitment socially and didn't flirt.  About 5 years ago that began to change ... . she fell in love with a well-known international rockstar (I mean fell in love - in that BPD way) and she somehow managed to become friends with some of his friends and she ended up trying to get with him backstage at a show - unsuccessfully.  She also bragged to me about how she could have easily bedded another well-known international rockstar (yeah ... .  a little narcissism perhaps? ) after getting dirty on a dance floor with him at the afterparty for a concert.  This man she sexts with is someone she admires immensely and has strong attraction sexually and emotionally.  I don't think he really cares about her all that much, from what I can gather.  I think Christina, you are 100% correct that she intends to use my cheating as an excuse for everything and anything she does in the future - sexual or otherwise. 

Jedi your   icon made me laugh.  Funny thing is, I don't really have that disgust a man should feel about his wife doing that.  I don't have that feeling in me about her.  I respect her as being the mother of my children, and in most ways, she's a very good mother.  But as a lover? - I'm way over that.  She's a beautiful woman and I see her every day ... . so I feel that attraction, but I don't think of her as a lover or partner, only a co-parent.  I'd love to find that part of our relationship again... .  and I work towards it, but I don't think it will happen.  The real romance killer for me has simply been 10 years of constant rejection.  I've been dumped, it was hard, and I'm over it.

Obviously I wrestle with the whole stay or leave thing.  I've heard the Dr Phil quote and I too believe it.  I just don't think our home - from the perspective of the children - is that broken.  Our relationship is, and I'm concerned about the example of love we're modelling for the children ... . but apart from that we manage to keep things quite peaceful and healthy for the children's growth.  They're very happy, good children.  Divorce would be an outright war with my wife as she is incapable of compromise and losing me as a daily rock in their life would be a huge hole for them that will cause them problems later in life - particularly D10 who has special needs. 

So in short, should marriage be like this? Heck no.  But fatherhood should.  So I stay.  The difference being that essentially I'm a single father and instead of two children, the addition of my wife means I have three -two are sweet and adoring, and one of them's a pain-in-the-a$$ brat ... .  but I love them all equally - as my children. 

[raindancer]

h777

I'm going to open up about this only because it relates to what you are struggling with. I was in a marriage with an uBPDh for 16 1/2 yrs. Early in our relationship he cheated on me with several ppl, some whom I thought were my friends. In 2002, he again cheated on me. The last 8 1/2 yrs of our marriage was sexless - 4 kids in our home, in basically the same environment you decribe. I left the marriage 4 yrs ago, and am currently working on a "relationship" with a pwBPD (yes, I'm a repeat), who has used the "other woman" card to be hurtful when he feels like cutting to the core. I'm a faithful flower, I was faithful in my marriage and I am now with this guy.

I say that to be able to say the following: and I speak of this as a Non-BPD, in any relationship.

There is a need for healing on both sides in this. Trust was broken. The first time by you and by someone whom your SO considered a friend. That's hurtful and it's the kind of hurt that may never, ever heal. This you have to acknowledge - she is in a place of hurt so deep she may never, ever come out of it. The second time... .  again trust was broken.

Regaining trust falls on the person who broke it to begin with. It may be the hardest thing you face in a lifetime. It is not easy and it will probably be painful for you just as much as her.

I've been in her shoes as a nonBPD, it's a dark place to be when someone cheats. With my exhusband, I've been the accuser, I've been the person who doubted every move he made, I've been the person who didn't believe him and I've been the person that went off the rails when I'd catch him in lies. I was that person in my marriage. Not because I'm of BPD, but because he broke my trust and we never worked on getting it back. What actually happened was that he started isolating me with accusations of cheating every time I left the house, worked, visited friends etc to not have to deal with what he'd done. Finally I left.

You've said counselling is not an option. Healing, regaining trust is going to have to start somewhere if this can ever be a good place for either of you.

Yes, you should be able to exercise and get in shape again. Yes, you should be able to be outside your home without facing a wall of hostile texts. There are ways to go about that - evolution or revolution. Evolution is the calm approach that means easing into it in a way that builds trust (maybe working out on the expensive piece of equipment you bought your SO, or setting up a yoga room in your house?) Revolution seems to be the approach you're taking. Revolution, by its very nature, is often more destructive than constructive and builds hostility rather than trust. Remember, there is an underlying level of un-healed deep hurt that is going to keep re-emerging every time she feels threatened.

There are a lot of things going on that are symptoms of a problem - sexting, accusing, acting out. Can the real problem be the broken trust? If the trust is rebuilt, can that change? Is it worth working on? Only you know that... .  

Earlier in this I said there were 4 kids in the environment you've described. We stayed together in a sexless relationship 8 1/2 yrs. We'd never fight in front of the kids. Most of the time when the kids were home he was gone and I felt like a single parent. I left. It was the hardest thing I ever did, but I did it. It's been 4 yrs. Now when the kids and I talk about what they remember about being kids in that environment they say things like "it was like living in a bee's nest", "it was hostile (we never fought in front of them or when they were home)", "it was hell on earth (my son)", "it was always like waiting for a bomb to go off". I get asked why I didn't leave sooner, and I've had to face their open rage for not leaving sooner. We've had to do a lot of healing since I left. The things that I never thought they knew, they knew. All the things I'd thought we'd hidden well were not hidden at all - and the collective sigh of relief came the day we walked out of our home into the unknown.

I stayed for many years because I didn't want to put them through the upheaval of a divorce. I stayed because I didn't want to take them from their home. I stayed for a lot of reasons, many that are the same as the ones you've given. I stayed for all the wrong the reasons - and while I stayed they hated me for staying.

Every situation is different. I only share this so it can give you a bit of understanding about the dark place your SO is in, that she may always be in within your relationship; and to give you food for thought about what your kids may also be experiencing without you realising it.

I truly wish you all the best h777.

[briefcase]

Just go ahead and make an appointment with a counsellor.  Invite her to come, but go without her if necessary and use it to work on yourself.  My wife won't go near a therapist of any kind, and that's what I ended up doing.  It was one of the best decisions I ever made.   

[h777]

raindancer,

Your tone is so balanced and kind.  Thank you for sharing your insight.

I guess I have a real issue with the term "re"gaining trust.  Before I cheated I was accused literally thousands upon thousands of times of infidelity ... . with anyone and everyone.  Her friends, anyone I worked with, strangers, my sisters.  Ask her today if I had sex with my younger sister and she'll say that I have.  This is a fact.

She brought me to tears as least once a week ... .  2-3 hour long sessions of me begging her to say at least once that she could trust me.  Yes, it's pathetic, I know.  Yes I would have left.  Yes we had a baby so I felt I couldn't.  I gave up my social life entirely, turned my back completely on my family to appease her.  disgraceful behaviour by me. giving giving giving, wrong-headed, misguided ways to try to heal her pain.  

This was all before she had any grounds to suggest I would be unfaithful.  We've been together 12 years, I admitted my infidelity 2 years ago.  For 10 years she'd been agonizingly stifling to me because of her off-the-charts jealousy and trust issues - and I unwittingly acted in a way that allowed her to treat me that way.  

I tried and tried the same tired ineffective ways to demonstrate my commitment and obviously I've failed at that.  By cheating on her - lashing out/taking the easy way out and saying "well I've already been guilty so many thousands of times, so I might as well do it" - I took a cowardly road and one that's caused incredible pain that I will regret til the end of my days.

So if there never has been trust ... .  there isn't trust to "re"gain.  My wife doesn't trust people ... .  she sees it as a weakness - a sign of unintelligence.  She strives not to trust - particularly with me.  I simply have to live with her never trusting me. 

She will not attend counselling - final answer from her.  Her immovable expressed opinion is that she is perfect, I'm bad/flawed/weak/empty/racially and culturally inferior/evil/classless/deviant/etc/etc. 

Basically she feels that she deserves to be treated better than others - particularly me.    To me it seems like a blatantly obvious, textbook situation of projecting her feelings of unworthiness onto me.  Giving to me attributes that she feels about herself.  I have found no effective way to unravel this tightly guarded image of me that she clings to.

I move agonizingly slowly with her.  This morning as I was getting ready for work I realized that I had a pair of pants and shirt that I hadn't worn in a while.  They looked good together.  So in deference to her feelings of inadequacy and mistrust I took off my shirt and put one on that looked a little bit worse, didn't match as well.  I use SET as best as I can.  I meditate daily for at least an hour, usually two on ways to improve myself to be a better man for my family.  I miss almost all social events except ones I'm compelled to attend.  I take no phone calls, I receive 2-3 personal emails per month.  I devote any spare time to tending to the children so that she has her evenings and weekends to be free to do things to allow her to heal (keep in mind that she is a SAHM).  I told her that I wanted to join a gym 4 years ago, but don't so that she doesn't feel jealous about it and instead do push ups etc while taking care of the kids.

I made it clear 6 months ago that I bought passes to this yoga studio and then practiced at home for that period prior to attending a class.  

So I don't know if it's fair to say I've chosen the path of Revolution.  I understand the pain she's enduring.  I truly do.  There is no light at the end of this tunnel.  I can live with that ... .  but I can't keep waiting for her to Evolve into trusting me.  It won't happen.  

As for your story about the bees-nest you thought your kids weren't attuned to in your home life.  That worries me immensely and I am constantly trying to hone in on whether my kids understand what's going on.  I truly feel that it's best for them the way it is now.  Believe me, if I thought differently, I'd be gone in a heartbeat - and my wife would be fine with that.  

I truly thank you for explaining it the way you did.  It's of ultimate importance to me and should always be at the forefront of my thoughts and actions.

[h777]

Briefcase. 

I might try that.  Smart.   Worst case is I get a session alone. (well actually my wife always seems to find a worse case far worse than i can ever imagine but your logic is strong).  Very good idea.

[h777]

h777!

I can affirm how ridiculously, unimaginably, beyond true description, marriage can be with a partner who has BPD. I never could have understood what all this is about truly, unless I was going through it too. Experience is worth a million words.

Jedi.  Thank you for that. My heart goes out to you, amigo.

[Louise7777]

Hey again h777!

I really cant imagine whats like to be in such a situation for 12 years. I have BPD family members, but thanks God we dont live under the same roof. 

I strongly suggest you to look for counselling. Not with her (BPDs usually think they are perfect and the others are damaged), but alone. Empower yourself. You need a professional to show you that its not normal to live like that. You are so enmeshed that u cant even see how weird that is. I was like that too. I didnt go to counselling, but I read a lot on the issue and stopped all contact.

Im thinking all the cheating accusations may be a projection. I dont find it "normal" for a mom to go to rock concerts. Maybe its my culture/ background. But she wants total loyalty from you while she does whatever she wants. From an outsider, its just bizarre. Its sad how u got distant from ur family and friends. From ur hobbies. You allow her to choose the clothes u wear... .  Thats completelly unacceptable, Im sorry! If you are happy with that, fine. But I fell you are very hurt and your kids may be hurt too.

You may think your kids dont see it, but they do. Please read the threads on people growing up with BPD parents.

Id suggest also u talk to an attorney, so at least you have information and see other options.

My experience with BPDs is not good at all, so maybe Im biased. But as I see it, the only way to remain "married" is to let her suck the life out of u. She doesnt want to be your wife, you have different rooms and all, but still she wants to control you and throw her anger on you. And thats damaging for your kids too. Impossible to think they are not aware.

Wish u all the best!