setting boundaries

[onetiredmom]

Us: parents of an adopted in adolescence dd18.  She is not living in our home for one month.  We accomplished the move in a fairly positive way.  She is now having problems with her new roommates, as she does in all of her relationships.  She has asked to move home and we have said no.  We can not allow her to be alone with her siblings as she is inappropriate and believes she "needs" to "correct" their beliefs on everything from religion to what "pieces of ****" their bio families are.  We can't leave her alone with them for 60 seconds.  Literally. 

She is 'in' every part of our lives/thinking such as us needing to shut off our phones so she doesn't call and text all day and night.   She can't understand when I don't answer the phone every time she calls.  Though she doesn't feel she needs to.  We have allowed her to come home over night 1x/week.  The first couple of times she left and didn't stay.  Now, wants to stay more and longer.  We are not allowing that.  When she is here, everything is about her.  She interrupts any conversation she isn't part of.  She won't join us for family activities, but will complain about us not wanting her here.  She comes over and spends 4 hours doing her make up and goes out with friends then wants us to change plans because we don't spend any time with her.  "you don't want me here".  We hide and lock up things when we know she is coming because she doesn't respect others.  For example, she comes to me and tells me "I did a bad thing".   She ate her brother's chocolates, a gift from another country.  He was 'earning' them.  She says "but I was hungry".  I know it is a small example, but she knows how important that was to him - he says it was "rare" candy.  She gets irrate if anyone eats something she decided she wanted.  She even ate his school cookie with is name on it.   

We think we need to tell her very clearly what our boundaries are.  We will talk to you 2x per day on the phone, answering if we aren't otherwise engaged.  We will respond to texts as convenient and appropriate - no 'conversations' by text.  I think one night per week is way plenty.  You need to respect the people in our home when you are here.  You may not be abuse in any way or you will need to leave.  We will not spend the night in the ER any more.  We will not transport her to medical appts (we have provided her 4 ways to get to every appt that does not include us).   

What I am trying to figure out is how much do we explain to her?  I have told her mayn't move home because we want to reinforce her capability and her independence.  She is right, though, she is hard to have around.  We have had to set some very hard boundaries with her as she just doesn't respect others.  Last night a coffee shop employee bribed her to leave - they couldn't get her to go - asked many times and she says "I was talking and telling a story".  She had all sorts of profanity to describe him - I told her, "honey, he just wanted to go home". 

She doesn't work or go to school.  Scheduling rides for her medical appts and her many "borrowed" illnesses (I learned that term here) overwhelms her so much she misses most of them.  She has 20+ hours per week of individual care givers - and refuses all offers of assistance other than rides.  And she continues to refuse to do anything suggested by her doctors, parents, etc. She hears what she wants to hear ("they all think I am fine" or demonizes anyone (such as ER physicians who refuse to give her pain medication) who disagrees with her.  She tells us she is fine and can 'do this' on her own.  Yet she calls multiple times a day to tell us "I am super anxious" and won't take the non-addictive anxiety medications because "they might make me fat".  She rants and rails and cries.  When she lived here she kept us awake until 4 or 5 am most every night.  She is 18 so she can refuse any treatment, and she does.  She has to be in control of everything, whether is it taking over a conversation or hiding the melatonin in the flour so her sibling can't have any. She will interrupt bedtime prayers when we are tucking kids in - and she will not stop talking.  We just can't get her to stop.  It is always someone else's fault.

And, of course, there are the stories she tells.  It is horrifying.  We have been warned we will likely be investigated by child protective services if she keeps going and finds enough people who don't know her or us, and thus believe her.

The crux of this is, I feel terrible for our detachment.  We feel terrible when she is around.   Interaction with her is not pleasant.  How much of what do we explain to her or do we just set the boundaries?  Do I explain that I need to set boundaries as my health is suffering?  We try to explain that we can't be waking the kids or keeping them up to give her rides, but she says "I was here first".  My lovely husband wants to just lay it out for her, hard and true.  He says there is no point explaining, she doesn't listen anyway.  This is true.  We literally can not have a conversation with her.  I am wondering about writing her a thoughtful letter.  Please, I want your feedback!  And, just so you know, and I must feel the need to clarify this, all of our professionals (for us and other kids) and her professionals are in agreement with how we are handling her.  I have been told I am too kind and too understanding. And I am working on that!

Thank you.  Sorry so long. 

PS.  I am sorry for all of us.  This is not what I envisioned this stage of my life to be.  I wanted a daughter to have a relationship with.  I have been told "what did you expect"?  Not this, frankly, not this.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[trainwreck4]

I don't know if this helps, but our BPDd15 may be your d in the future. I am often preoccupied with her and her borrowed illnesses too. We have three other kids that also need our attention and she came dangerously close to turning us into lunatics totally immersed in her and what she needs/wants. It is not unreasonable to put boundaries on how much she can dictate your lives. I don't know that laying it out and not explaining why is right, as I almost always try to give rationales for decisions regarding my family. I am still pretty early in the game, but I can see how we can be swallowed by their needs. It sounds like you are still participating in her life and you absolutely didn't sign up for this. None of us did. And I will have a life at your stage. I am determined of this. I M equally determined that I will have her in my life, but probably sadly with boundaries.

[lbjnltx]

Hello onetiredmom,

If I discern correctly, what you are asking for is advice on how to state your boundaries with your d.

I think that the less said the better.  Matter of fact and followed by the consequence.

IE:  Because we value peace and respect in our home we will not be verbally abused.  If any of us feel that we are being verbally abused we will ask you to take a time out and we will take a time out and come back when everyone is calm. If we are unable to achieve peace we will ask you to leave.  If we are out together with  you and feel that we are being verbally abused we will leave for a time out and come back when everyone is calm.

So basically, value, boundary, how you will protect your boundary.

Too many boundaries at one time is not recommended... .  give it careful thought.  See if you can state 3 boundaries... .  usually: verbal abuse, safety, financial for now.

[Being Mindful]

Dear onetiredmom,

I swear our daughters are identical twins.

When we created boundaries we did not communicate them in advance. We communicated as they were being tested. They are very effective! That's about all I have to add for now. I agree with lbj for short and concise. Then, stick with them, enforce everytime.

[Being Mindful]

I don't know if this helps, but our BPDd15 may be your d in the future. I am often preoccupied with her and her borrowed illnesses too. We have three other kids that also need our attention and she came dangerously close to turning us into lunatics totally immersed in her and what she needs/wants. It is not unreasonable to put boundaries on how much she can dictate your lives. I don't know that laying it out and not explaining why is right, as I almost always try to give rationales for decisions regarding my family. I am still pretty early in the game, but I can see how we can be swallowed by their needs. It sounds like you are still participating in her life and you absolutely didn't sign up for this. None of us did. And I will have a life at your stage. I am determined of this. I M equally determined that I will have her in my life, but probably sadly with boundaries.

I have framed my boundaries as no different than I have with my friends so there is nothing to be sad about. I wouldn't tolerate verbal abuse, physical abuse etc. with them so if you normalize it to your other relationships, it is no different. And, really when you think about it you have boundaries in all your relationships but it is under the surface, not really something you think about and have to enforce.

I love my boundaries because I still have my d in my life because of them.

[onetiredmom]

Thank you.  I so value all of your input.  Good ideas about simple, concise, and normalized. 

I am exhausted by the hysteria.  We went to church tonight, got out to a barrage of texts on both our cells, calls on both cells, and calls on our home phone.  URGENT.  CRISIS.  were the messages.  She screamed and cried and my dh listened while I put the kids down.  When she eventually calmed enough to get it out of her, know what the issue was? Got a bill for all the borrowed illnesses.  ($25,000 worth of tests received is our best estimate.)  She is hysterical over their requesting a $32 co-pay.  It is less money then her new piercing or the bus ticket she wants to buy to visit a friend 3 states away.   I tell you, I have no energy left for those calls.  Can't do it.  It infuriates me.  I know that isn't what it is about, but I just don't want to deal with it.  I wonder if I can put a boundary on hysteria... .  call me back when you are calm and we are able to talk and I can help you problem solve... .  ? 

We have well established boundaries about physical safety and finances that to date have gone unchallenged.  We continue to enforce the no verbal abuse boundary - I hang up.  She is getting better and better.  I need to establish phone boundaries.  How does something like this sound?  "My doctor has told me I need to reduce my stress.  Some of the things I am going to do are only doing one thing at a time.  This means I will return calls when I am not otherwise occupied, including yours.  I will talk to you twice a day.  I will not have conversations by text because they are too easily misunderstood and that is stressful. I will continue to not answer my phone at night as I need to get sleep.  I love you and will talk to you when you can have my full attention."

What I wonder is, what do I do if she continues to abuse phone privileges?  We can't completely shut off all phones - we have other children and obligations!  I am afraid we are going to have to get new phone numbers!

How do you set boundaries on being considerate?  Like, letting others speak, not being the center of every conversation and event, respecting schedules, etc?  She 'yeah, buts' all attempts at discussing it with her.

We have informed her that we will not come and get her from 3 states away and we do not support her taking this trip.  And we stated it just like that, matter of factly.  We have refused to rescue her before when she made inconsiderate choices disrespecting requested time boundaries. 

Thank you. 

[Being Mindful]

Onetiredmom,

Good morning   

Yes, you can have a boundary on hysteria. Your example response is good "call me back when you are calm and I can help you problem solve.

I have esablished phone boundaries and literally within 2 days of me enforcing them rarely does she challenge them. When she does, I enforce and she corrects her behavior. Early on, I had to ignore her calls. I put my phone away where I wasn't even tempted to answer it. I have a long example on the other boundary thread that maybe you can take a look at.

I'm wondering if you can shorten that boundary on phone contact. Don't feel that you need to justify it. For me personally, I can't give my d. personal information regarding a doctor's suggestion. This is my personal information that she could use in another battle. It is my personal information only. See if you can shorten your statement to one or two sentences.

[Thursday]

Does anyone else feel like their BPD loved ones actually their boundaries?

When being mindful says

literally within 2 days of me enforcing them rarely does she challenge them

it reminds me of what I experience when we are able to be very, very direct and clear with no blah, blah, blah for dBPDSD21 to be confused by, she gets it pretty quickly, often without any testing at first.

In most cases she will test boundaries later or seem to suddenly forget well established parameters.

And in those cases, just a simple restating of what it is she is pushing against, and she will come around again.

thursday.

[lbjnltx]

Structure, limitations, consistancy and boundaries... .  can all create a sense of safety for someone who is feeling afraid or uncertain... .  children need all these things to feel safe as they push against them. We have seen many posts that mention the structure and limitations of jail and inpatient treatment seeming to be helpful for children/adult children w/BPD.

At the same time that they need them... .  they rebel against them.

It creates a dilemna!  What we can do is be consistant, strong, reliable and compassionate. 

Thanks thursday for pointing that out!

[sunshineplease]

<<If any of us feel that we are being verbally abused we will ask you to take a time out and we will take a time out and come back when everyone is calm.>>

What I especially love about this sentence is "if any of us feel." The bottom line is that BPDs will gaslight and argue and draw you back in if you give them the opportunity... .  the way this is worded, it's clear that our feelings are enough to trigger the boundary. Keeps us in control of our own homes/lives.

[Being Mindful]

Excellent input sunshine! Thank you.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Kate4queen]

One thing I picked on these boards was that my BPD son always wants everything NOW, everything is URGENT or SERIOUS and we'd gotten used to responding with speed to put out the fires.

Now he's not living here we can push the 'Pause' button and reply when we feel like it rather than being harried along a path of his choosing.

Pause, reflect de-stress and write back a considered reply or none at all.

If gives us back a sense of control too.

[Being Mindful]

So true Kate, We experience the same thing.

[onetiredmom]

That is brilliant, Kate. 

If forget that my phone is for my convenience.  I don't have to answer.  And when she plays round robin with all of our phones, I still don't have to answer. 

Rarely is here urgent, urgent.  Not in reality.

[Being Mindful]

I have found texting works really well for us. Short, concise sentences. Sometimes I will use it to let her know that I see she is trying to get a hold of me, but I can't answer and I will call her at x:xx time. Works wonders.

Example: I see you called. I am at work. I will call you at x:xx.

It took a while to get her to this point, after repetitive actions on my part to enforce.

[somuchlove]

I have been there and am there right now with my dd.  When she calls or text she has trained me to respond NOW ! !   If not I am in trouble, she throws all kids of , You don't care, I know I am a piece of SH... .  t.  I will just kill myself, i don't deserve, on and on, you have all heard it.

It has taken me a long time to see that there seems to always be a crisis that arises.  I want to fix it.  It breaks my heart.  If she didn't have 3 wonderful little ones that are my grandkids, I would  be more easily able to let go, I think.  This makes it really tough.

I still haven't really set boundaries.  I need to.  Just seems there is never a good time.  I know that it shouldn't be hard. 

I keep telling myself that if I really want to help my little gkids I need to.  It will not get better. 

Oh if I could just hand the phone over to one of you people that seem to find the right words I would do it.  I just struggle with the correct wording.  I NEED A CHEAT SHEET OR something.  Fill in the blank texting. 

I worry that I will be the one that sets her over the edge.  Like that hasn't and won't happen.  I know I can't blame myself but i do for not being able to figure this all out.

[Being Mindful]

Dear somuchlove,

I can hear your frustration and your desire to set boundaries and that it is difficult to do so. It sounds like you are scared to take action both for your daughter and gkids. And, it is no fun to be in a emotional blackmail position when our BPD kids threaten us. That bind is very difficult emotionally to let go of.

It took me a long time to get to boundaries. I wished I would have done it sooner. It catapulted us into further learning and applying skills. Our lives have improved.

Is there something specifically we could help with?

What if you wrote down some specific statements and then practiced them, said them outloud, got use to them and then put it to work with your d.?

Let us know... .  thinking of you.

Being Mindful