Now what to do?

[somuchlove]

The message I wish my dd would understand is:  going to get help will make her much better at handling things, people, like bf to see she is a good mother, rather than going around being totally crazy, angry, crying all the time.  I think she is probably shut up in her bedroom crying all the time.  She does this... .    I don't know what her kids think of this.  they are probably use to it.  She is a good mom but when things get like this it is very hard.  She will loose her kids if she goes crazy.  Do I go out or not.  This is what happend today.


DD started texting me today that she was going to check herself in to the hospital because she thought she was having a nervous breakdown.  She also said that everything she had said to me on the phone yesterday after bf came home was just because he was there.   I replied to text saying if she felt she needed to then what could i do to help, thinking I could try and fly out.  Her next text was,  so you do think I am crazy.  I knew you hate me and have talked to bf and etc etc... .    Then she said, if i check myself in I will loose custody of my kids.  I know you think I am crazy and you just said it. 

I tried to valadate her feelings by texting you really sound like you need someone to help.  I ask her to help me understand why you think you would loose custody.  She said back ( I probably should have said that)  she said that is the truth,  you don't believe me u think everthing is my fault. I don't understan I haven't done anything but fight for my family. why does everyone hate me.  I then said It is ok if you feel you need some help.  again probably not the right thing.  I just hate trying to figure out what to say... .    she replied,  See u do think everything is my fault.  Oh my gosh... .     U hate me, too, everyone does everthing is my fault.  Don't come this next week, you are not welcome here any more.  leave me alone.   

I have heard the leave me alone, you are not welcome here anymore... .    I understand that she is scared, she feels safe being mad and emtional with me,   I know she is so scared and really probably feeling like she is having a break down.  She is scared about her little one and ending up having to let baby be with father if he is doing drugs.   I am not taking this personal i know she is crying out for help, she doesn't want to be like this.   She has had to go to the dr. for panic and anxiety.

It is crazy how we really have had nothing to do with all the conflicts and issues going on except to support and love and yet we are the ones that out of the blue we are attacked.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[somuchlove]

Now that I am thinking over and over.  I maybe should have responded to the I think I am going to check my self into the hospital... .  with  You sound like you feel you have no where to turn or something like that.  Should I text her or call her?  I would like to open communciation so she doesn't feel alone.  She is really in a bad situation right now and doesn't know where to turn.  Or can't figure out where to turn.  If i knew she was ok right now I could rest but i have no idea what is going on there.  She has the 2 older ones and I can just imagine what it could be like.   You see, when she had issues with her ex. things got really bad and i always felt if I had gone out there and just been there I might have been able to at least help and give her a break, etc.  maybe not but kept things from esculating as bad as they were.  I know I can't hold on to that but I didn't go partly because I didn't want to go through it.  I should have. I am strong enought if I need to be. 

I am ok, here guys,  I am just trying to decide what is logical and the good thing to do.  I have a much better emotional perspective on this, thanks to everyone here and the stuff I have read. 

[qcarolr]

Seems I have heard this "don't come" every time you plan a trip to visit your D. And it seems to work out when you go anyway. Could it be too hard for her to internalize that she needs help from you - so she asks by 'not asking', by saying you don't care.

If you think you could connect with her better in person, you can choose to go. Let her know when you will be there and where you will be staying. Is there a specific purpose to your visit? To help her pack up and move out? To find other resources? To just visit? What are your expectations for yourself and from your D? Are you willing for her to come stay with you temporarily?

Does any of this help you - or just make you more frustrated? You are in my heart and my prayers.

qcr  

[somuchlove]

Soo do I text her, trying say I will come out and stay and help with the little guys, she could go to some counseling, get some R & R.  Knowone needs to know she is doing this.  There are some great places in the area that deal with BPD.  She is in Mass.  Can't tell her she has BPD but there are week sessions, she could attend possible instead of going to hospital.  ?  Blaahhhh

We are on spring break next week and so wanted to spend time with them.  We haven't seen them since Aug.  The little one was only 7 months old and is now 15 months.  When i visited with dd yesterday and told her that we were still willing to stay in a motel if that helped with things, she said yes, it might since their house is in such turmoil.  I told her also that we could wait and come another time, especially if she was going to be coming here.  ( it would be money we may need to help in her move , maybe)  She replied with how she wanted us to see the little one as she is just so wonderful, happy and the delight of everyone.  She said it is so hard because she knows how we would so enjoy being around her more.  

She is wondering if she does what is better, just leave while bf is at work, that would mean not taking a lot, (that means she would have to spend $$$ getting started again.) or just pack.  I don't know how she plans to move her stuff across the country.  She can't get it all in her car.  

Our main goal was to spend time with them.  It is hard when we are with her to even bring things up and discuss.  Guess we are scared to start something.  I am sure she is worried about us coming, she is always apologizing for a messy house, which it isn't, not cooking, etc.  I am also think she worries, especially this time that bf might talk to us about stuff, she may feel we will think it is all her imagination.   I am just guessing here.  

Her strong love and protection of her children just are crazy.  She said, bf kicked their dog, she said her one boy who loves, loves his dog, said, mommy how can he do that to my dog. She said it breaks her heart,  and there are more.  She just can't stand to see her children hurt, and yet she doesn't see what she is putting them through herself.  It would kill her if someone ever said she bad for them.  

Soo I don't know what to do.  Thanks for responding qcarolr.  I am sitting her smiling as I write this,  a year or so ago I would be falling apart.  Now I just want to check out for awhile and wake up when dd has gone to counseling and all is well.  LOL.    As I told my other dd  the scary part of all of this is when does she cry wolf to many times and we don't respond.  I don't know if I can live with that.  

[vivekananda]

gee it's hard. The whole thing becomes a puzzle on what to do not to cause an outbreak of anger, only to feel that nothing you can do will work. That is frustrating.

Well, you looked over your conversation with her and saw where you weren't as validating as you thought. That is a leap forward! I am thinging that when you said ... .  if she felt she needed to say stuff while bf was in the room, how could you help? ... .  she may have heard, ... .  you think I can't cope with this, you think that I am inadequate to be in this situation and not deal with it ... .  perhaps she thought you were being judgemental and that made her feel worse. Maybe you could try next time to say: 'ah, it's frustrating trying to balance all the expectations on you.' You acknowledge the emotion, frustration and validate how she feels. This is not judgemental and allows her to continue on talking abut how she feels, it shows you are listening to what she is trying to say.

Another thing, with some of our kids, they will say one day, I never want to speak to you again and then again soon after call up and ask for help... .  so this doesn't have to be definitive, your dd sounds so lovely, she sounds like she is really trying hard -  expect you'll hear from her again soon.

Can you call or text: 'I would like to come out to see you and the gkids, I miss you all. Can I come ... .  , or when can I come?' Make the purpose of the call or text, just that. No suggestion of rescuing, or helping - just a holiday and a good time. Or pay for her and the kids to come to you... .  ?

gee somuchbest wishes, you will know how best to handle this, whatever you do. Remember to find the emotion to validate in your dd's words. Let her hear you listen to what she is saying. You don't need to think you have to do anything else, she wants to feel in control of her life.

sending you strength,

Vivek    

[somuchlove]

thanks for the advice and helping me understand as well as the support.  I understand validate the emotion, etc.  When I read what I text or re think what I say It makes sense but at the time I am so busy thinking of what I need/should say I don't think i am really listening to what she is saying.  Also, my mind goes to my   and I think of how I can help, or what will I say that is wrong.   then I can't think what is the emotion to validate.  Oh it is so much so fast when we are in converstation. 

I am so scared about what to say.  I guess because the words i have said for so long, like I am sorry i didn't meant that,  no this is how it was meant,  don't feel this way , you should feel like this are so much more natural. 

I have tried to just listen and if I don't say something then she will say my name, sharply,  if I say her name as I am talking she will repeat my name a couple times.  I don't take offense to thes things any more.  I don't know though whether to say that really hurt my feelings, if she says something that does, or to say when she told me today ,  don't come you are not welcome here, and i just told the kids you ARE NOT coming.  I want to say, how mean, or why would you say that, that must have upset them,  but then she would say,  see you think i am a horrible mother, or just say  I know I am a horrible mother, bad bad bad,  i should just be dead.  etc etc... .  I am sure many of you have been through this... .    I know it is a no win.  But when she does things, and screams and yells when the kids are around talking to me i think that has to be very very hard for them.  If i say I just can't talk right now, or I am worried the kids are there, who knows what she says to them when we hang up.  What do i do.   

[lbjnltx]

Hello somuchlove,

I am sorry that you are hurting and confused about the potential visit to see your d and gkids.  As qcarol points out, there is a long standing pattern regarding visits.

You pointed out the root of the problem I think.  You are not invested in just listening.  It is hard to focus our minds on just one task when we carry so much baggage/history into the moment. Our minds go wandering down the path of concern for others, our emotions take over and we bring in all the fear and pain from past conversations/situations. 

Like any other task we wish to accomplish, it is good to have a clearly stated goal while we focus on each step it will take to reach that goal.  So in this situation, "listening" would be a step towards reaching the goal of helping your d not become dysregulated.  In order to be able to validate her you would need to understand what she is feeling and the only way to do that is to listen.

Here is an example of some of the steps towards the goal of providing the opportunity for your d to regulate her emotions:

Have value based boundaries to enable you to stay in the relationship

Accept that you cannot change her, only yourself

Listen without judgement (stay in the moment and focus)

Validate her feelings so that she feels you understand

Ask validating questions to help her work through problematic feelings/situations

Ask her how you can support her in seeking solutions

All of these words in bold are skills that are needed to improve self and the relationship.  We need to start with self and what we need to change in order to be able to provide the opportunities for change in the relationship.  In  other words... .  we need to do first what we are asking someone else to do.

Where would you need to focus your energy to learn the skills to move out of this pattern and create free space for a different outcome?

lbj

[qcarolr]

somuchlove - much good support here for you to take in and process. And doesn't it always feel like we have to 'hurry up and figure out the answer NOW'?

So many of your posts include 'how do i get D to go to therapy' in some form or another. This one - the desire in your heart to go and watch the kids for a week so she could do an intensive therapy program. This has been the hardest thing for me to let go of - I still have to remind myself, or ask myself - am I pursuing this to try to pressure DD26 to take advantage of this opportunity to 'make her life better'?  I think as moms we are so ingrained to want to protect and fix our kids.

How can we support you to truly step up to giving up this desire that the only path for your D is through therapy? When she is ready, she will find it for herself. The opportunities will always be there. Maybe she is just not ready yet. What things can you do add to the supportive 'pre-therapy' community that can help your D first find some safety and security for herself? This is her primary need today. Accepting therapy comes several steps beyond the first step of security and safety.

So go - take a vacation to be with your D and your gkids. Look for ways to find joy in as many moments as you can while you are there. Fill your D and gkids with all that love in your heart. Let go of the worries for that bit. Keep the conversation light - esp. when bf is there.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

confused somuchlove? frustrated too? a bit of guilt? I recall when I felt I was stuck like you. And between you and me (and all the others who will read this  , you know what I resented the most? She was the one who was nasty and horrible, not me. She was the one who had the mental illness, not me! Why was everyone telling me I had to change?

Who amongst us hasn't felt powerless in the face of a virago of anger and terse words where anything we were going to say would set her off and emotional blackmail was all the rage? I felt like a voodoo doll with pinpricks going through me all the time. And in my self righteousness I would say, but I love her. I know what she needs to do, I can help her. Well thankfully that was me (past tense), but not now.

I started with values based boundaries and when I felt that I had that understood, I moved on to validation. Slowly with the help of people here, I began to come around. I needed to change for my own sake and then maybe I could be a support to my dd.

I know all of us have different situations and in some ways mine is easier than others - I have no grandchildren thank goodness. But I was prepared with a boundary that I would not continue a conversation if my dd reached an anger level of 5 out of 10. If she started being too nasty for me to cope with, saying hurtful things, disrespectful things, then I would be prepared to end that conversation to be resumed when she became less angry with me. Each  of us is different right? so it may not be what you would do, but perhaps a boundary based upon your values to help you with your conversations may be helpful... .  

Validation is hard. It was a combination of reading, posting and getting helpful advice from people here and practise on complete strangers that got me to a stage where I began to understand the concept of validation at a rather deep level. Now I feel reasonably adept - but I still need a way to go before I have incorporated validation as a default response to any situation. That is my goal at the moment.

ok, somuchbest wishes, what do you think you could do?

Cheers,

viv    

ps I hope I haven't been too blunt, it is not my intention ... .     

[somuchlove]

Again you guys are great.  qcarolr,  I am pretty hard headed so might take one large hammer to get it through my skull.      I guess you are going to have to keep telling me this.  I am sure I sound like a broken record.  We are still not sure if we are going or not for our visit.  Haven't been able to get any response from dd today. Called to just to say hi and see how she is.  I am reading through some stuff and writing down so i hope i can listen and stick with my goal of the call. 

I am thinking  I am feeling pressure because she is trying to end this relationship with bf, maybe moving.  This hasn't been that bad of a situation in my eyes, not hers. 

AS I think about this whole picture I am sure she can sense my thoughts sometimes that I still wish she would go for counseling.  Even though I know she is the one that has to be ready.  I probably haven't until the past year let go of mentioning it in some small way.  This probably kept her from going just because she would feel it was because i wanted it not because it was her idea.  ?

Vivek ananda ,  yes I get resentful.  I also feel I work so hard spending time reading, talk to people, etc and yet she doesn't do anything but remain the same and I am her punching bag.  I understand exactly what you are saying.

I do feel she is trying to figure me out since I am probably not responding the way I have to her in the past.  When we change behavior plans with our special needs students at school we usually see worse behavior before it starts getting better.  Is this how it works here?  As I set some boundaries and learn to listen "better" and let her figure it out , not me telling her.  it might get better?

Vivek ananda your question what do I think I can do, I am not sure?  HELP !  Sometimes I feel I am back in college studing for a class and taking tests.  I take this as a challenge in my life, to be good at this, learn all I can learn, maybe one day really helping others, maybe helping with a class.  But I have so much to learn.  But I want the outcome of my personal experience to be good. 

It is like I need to write down what she says, and the right way to answer.  It take time.  I tried to valadate a student today.  He was very upset,  My mind just went blank.  How can I keep from going brain dead?  I am a teacher for goodness sake, I handle issues every day.  I deescalate students with lots of issues, I work with adults that have issues... .    Why does this come so hard for me.      lots and lots of Hugs to all of you.  I am so glad you are all hanging with me on this.  I am reading and reading your posts.  Keep um coming if you have time.  I guess I need to have it scripted out... .   

[vivekananda]

ahh somuchbest wishes, you are gorgeous 

You know what to do and how to do it... .  I have confidence in you. What I think is happening for you is that it hasn't quite yet clicked into place, that's all.

If I tell you my story, perhaps you could think this may be you too... .  

That clicking into place has happened a few times over the years. Once big time in 2008 when I learnt a lot about letting go of ego (detachment), the other time last year, when I came to grips with boundaries, validation and radical acceptance. This clicking into place doesn't quite happen overnight, but over a period of time, there is a realisation of a paradigm shift in thinking. Basically last year I accepted that I had to change. That is change completely. I had to let go of my excuses for why I was who I was, why my life sucked so bad, why my dd was who she was, why dh was the way he was. I had to accept resonsibility for me and no more reasons for this or that, no more excuses. I needed to change fundamentally how I thought about things and how I did things.

Now I am surrounded by BPD and pw BPD traits... .  so I looked to what I needed to do for myself. It felt so alien and so selfish. I was looking after myself, changing myself for myself. The way to do this was to appreciate values based boundaries and be prepared to implement regardless of the possible outcomes over which I had no control.  I needed to define boundaries to stop enabling and to protect myself, they were value based. If my dd decided never to speak to me again, that would be her choice. If she ended up on the streets living a terrible life, if she took her own life, I would learn to live with that - it was not my responsibility.

Once I came to grips with setting my boundaries with her (which related to financial support basically). I then turned to understanding validation. Now I did lots of reading. I had my guides here (lbj, carolqcr and others), I posted my dilemmas, and got the sort of responses you are getting now  . Validation has layers of application and understanding. It is hard because it is complex. I began to pracice validation on strangers I would meet on public transport and suchlike, on shop assistants, brief encounters. I saw how well it worked. I left people feeling happier, I got smiles and in turn that helped me smile. I started spreading the love all about me   and I got it back too. Bit by bit I improved my practice and learnt more and more through reading and discussion.

Then I turned to trying to tackle what mindfulness meant.

I short. I stopped my focus on my dd and turned it onto myself. I felt almost guilty that I was looking after myself, becoming the sort of person I wanted to be. I stopped worrying about trying to fix dd and began to accept the situation I faced.

So, what are your boundaries to support your daughter and not enable her and to protect yourself? Does she get away with treating you with disrespect? Is that an issue?

When do you use validation? Have you read "I don't have to make everything all better" by Lundbergs or NVC by Rosenberg? What is your plan to begin to change?

Finally, if you just stuck to the emotions of angry, frustrated, anxious, scared and stressed, you will have covered most of the emotions that bother us   you could just stick to validating them and see how it went.

let me know ok?

cheers,

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[suchsadness]

Vivek ... .  that was awesome reading!  A very nicely laid out example of "how to"... .  and I am needing this as well 

The first part about setting boundaries is definitely where I am at as well.  In fact, it was a discussion with my T on Monday - regarding my issues with my uBPD dd35 and her texts/claims about childhood abuse.  I had said to my T that I wish there was a manual to follow when they attack you, because no matter what you say or do it is the wrong thing.  She said a manual wouldn't help anyway... .       But, I think you laying it out as setting boundaries first is excellent.  It feels so much less overwhelming when you can think about focusing on that one thing first.  My T said what you did about stopping a conversation that starts feeling bad, whether it is on the phone or by text.  She also said to delete the texts that are hurtful or accusing and do not respond.  To me - I was thinking she will just say I don't care if I don't respond... .  her answer - so what!  I'm going to go with it!

Somuchlove - as far as deciding whether to go visit or not, this was the exact dilemma I was facing last spring.  It felt like it was going to be a painful, uncomfortable experience that would end badly.  I finally decided that I would go, and it would be under my terms.  I rented a car, stayed 2 nights with one daughter, then my dh joined me and we rented a room for 2 nights, took my uBPD dd35's sons on a mini vacation to the mountains and stayed at a lodge.  We had very limited time with my dd35 - but enjoyed the grandchildren for several days by keeping them with us and doing fun things the whole time.  It turned out great!  I was so apprehensive about going because of issues that were happening before we went out - and I actually kept repeating to myself as I was driving up to the doorstep "I am here on vacation, I am not here to fight or solve anyones problems!"  It helped so much to be in that frame of mind and it all turned out swell    I hope for you and your dd's sake that whatever you decide to do in your situation will all work out as well.  OH - and I'm thinking that the things you do as a teacher are so much easier and come more naturally because you don't have that Mother's love/emotion tied to them.  I also work with children at school (therapist) - and it is not as much work or stress as dealing with the one's we truly love.  Good luck... .  my thoughts are with you as you work through this.   

[vivekananda]

aw shucks thanks suchsadness.

viv   

ps 'ex-teacher!' 

[somuchlove]

Vivek ananda    thanks so much for you post.  It makes so much sense.  There is so much guilt for me as well when I start thinking of myself.  I know, because others tell me , that this is what we should do.  When you are a person that has always seemed to put others first, help others, listened and done everything you can to keep peace, it is hard.  I consider myself a strong person but when i try to speak my mind or sometimes simply say,  No this is where I want to go eat, I feel guilty because I always felt it was the polite thing to do, just go along with the ones that spoke out.  Even though in my job I don't do this.

suchsaddness, isn't it amazing how personal life is much different in some ways than dealing with students.  That parent thing can sure gets in the way. 

Vive,  right now I am so scared because 5 yrs ago my dd went off in a tagent and ended up having a horrible time, lost custody of her kids, which is much better now.  I worry that she will do something that will create a similar situation now.  She is not completely to blame either time.  I know she would not live through this same situation again.  If it was normal ups and downs then I could probably react a little diff.  I just hope she is not headed in that direction.  I have to say she has tried in many ways.  I don't know if you read my post earlier today.  about bf going to the counselor they were going to. 

Vive,  I am going to read and read and read your post again as I am others.  Yes,  I have read the book you refered to.  2 times.    

[peaceplease]

somuchlove,

If it were "me", I would make my own reservations at hotel.  I would want to see my grandchildren and witness for myself what is truly going on.  You have been through this before and went, anyways.

As far as deescalating students at school - totally different.  When there is emotional involvement that intereferes with everything.   Any emotional involvement and all that we know goes out the window.  It becomes "personal" to us.

I hope it all works itself out for you.  

peaceplease