I am paralysed

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

We eventually had a chat yesterday (despite several attempts to goad me, like not telling me the girls were staying at in laws for the night!)

She has now painted me black and told me that removing me will remove the stress in her life so she can get on with things.  I have been told that it was unforgivable to explicitly highlight the inconsistent approach she takes with the kids which causes confusion.

How do we pick the pieces up?  She wants me to leave the house and we will discuss various options tonight but she seems to think I will be a pseudo babysitter, coming back to the house when she has early/late/nightshifts.  To me this isn't fair, nor can I probably afford to move out to a space that can accommodate the three kids staying over - what experience have others had in this situation?  I have the debt repayments, mortgage payments and pay all but two household bills in my name.  She deals with the car (hers) nursery fees and clothing etc.  Where do I stand- I'd rather stay with the kids and she can move out providing more stability for them - depending on shifts and avoidance of me, she's hardly there anyway.  I'm trying to workout what’s for the best and can’t see how it's either affordable or practical.  I realise I do still love her and am hoping she will come to a realisation but know it's not likely to happen.  I’m trying to keep myself busy and if I didn't see it was this condition playing out then I fear what state I would have been in.  I'm having difficulty seeing how me leaving the children will make things any better.  I guess we'll see if we can agree anything tonight but it seems the cards are stacked in her favour, If I leave and pay the mortgage and maintenance yet have only the ability to live in an undesirable unaffordable hovel in a no good part of town... . really? not a long term solution. Or sell the house and uproot the kids.

Stuck in the nightmare at the moment trying to buy myself some more time, she's working nights Wed, Thur & Fri, so me and kids won't see her properly 'til Sat afternoon at the earliest this week - I have made it clear that when we split, it's for good - everything is falling on deaf ears as it's what she wants - how long can I give it to save money to move? It hurts

[Whichwayisup]

We eventually had a chat yesterday (despite several attempts to goad me, like not telling me the girls were staying at in laws for the night!)

She has now painted me black and told me that removing me will remove the stress in her life so she can get on with things.  I have been told that it was unforgivable to explicitly highlight the inconsistent approach she takes with the kids which causes confusion.

How do we pick the pieces up?  She wants me to leave the house and we will discuss various options tonight but she seems to think I will be a pseudo babysitter, coming back to the house when she has early/late/nightshifts.  To me this isn't fair, nor can I probably afford to move out to a space that can accommodate the three kids staying over - what experience have others had in this situation?  I have the debt repayments, mortgage payments and pay all but two household bills in my name.  She deals with the car (hers) nursery fees and clothing etc.  Where do I stand- I'd rather stay with the kids and she can move out providing more stability for them - depending on shifts and avoidance of me, she's hardly there anyway.  I'm trying to workout what’s for the best and can’t see how it's either affordable or practical.  I realise I do still love her and am hoping she will come to a realisation but know it's not likely to happen.  I’m trying to keep myself busy and if I didn't see it was this condition playing out then I fear what state I would have been in.  I'm having difficulty seeing how me leaving the children will make things any better.  I guess we'll see if we can agree anything tonight but it seems the cards are stacked in her favour, If I leave and pay the mortgage and maintenance yet have only the ability to live in an undesirable unaffordable hovel in a no good part of town... . really? not a long term solution. Or sell the house and uproot the kids.

Stuck in the nightmare at the moment trying to buy myself some more time, she's working nights Wed, Thur & Fri, so me and kids won't see her properly 'til Sat afternoon at the earliest this week - I have made it clear that when we split, it's for good - everything is falling on deaf ears as it's what she wants - how long can I give it to save money to move? It hurts

[an0ught]

Hi Whichwayisup,

that is a tough spot to be in  . After the initial relief through knowledge you acquired the pain of the reality becomes more intense. This is normal and posting on the board can help here.

From what you wrote it is clear what she wants. Whether it matters so much is another question as she seems in a major crisis that has been building up over some time and could change her opinion on a dime if mood required it. Right now she feels intensely the need for a major change... .

What is a bit less clear is what you want, knowing she is unstable, kids are teenagers and financial wiggle-room is precious?

And there a need to make a decision now from your perspective?

[benny2]

Sounds like she is thinking of herself more than the rest of the family. If she insists on splitting, you insist on what you feel is best for all.

[Whichwayisup]

Thanks Guys, it seems that she has been dysregulating for the last few weeks and I am trying really hard not to snap, but keeping it together even at the hurtful comments and actions - and doing ok in terms of that.

I'm hoping that by at least teasing out the various options tonight, she may see the reality of the impact any change can have on the situation. She is adamant that she will not consider marriage counselling cos my actions will never be forgiven by her.(!)  The fact that we were able to even talk about it and discuss the kids last night was a relief - although I also got chapter and verse on what a hard day she had (with this site I at least can expect this and acknowledge it as textbook behaviours rather than an attempt to frustrate me)

I have told her that I am in a time of confusion and am finding it very upsetting cos there will be a big impact whatever is determined.

What I want is to give her more time as moving quickly is not a good thing, or at least to take some space/accountability for the situation we are in.  I am mindful of the kids and the ability to look after them - she has again restated that she will yell at them as that's what parents do! - Remarkably, they are so far seemingly quite  unaffected- she's adamant that she won't even show them "An Umbrella for Alex" so I have addressed the issues with them in terms of people feeling different moods.

What I want so desperately is to work at the marriage whilst working hard to change my own co-dependant traits - I didn't get married to give up and said I would do marriage only once.  I don't know if she will even want to change or have the strength. 

I don't want to leave the kids, she says she doesn't either.  I'm hoping that buying time will allow her to calm and see things differently, but she is fixated on me being the issue. And regardless of the future, I will still have to deal with her whether in a loving relationship or to ensure the kids are looked after.

[an0ught]

Hi Whichwayisup,

the fact that you are talking is good. Seems there is a strong connection between you just that the polarity is currently wrong  . You don't need to solve problems or make decisions right now at all. Listening carefully to her and feeding back that you hear her does already a lot.

Thanks Guys, it seems that she has been dysregulating for the last few weeks and I am trying really hard not to snap, but keeping it together even at the hurtful comments and actions - and doing ok in terms of that.

Boundaries are really important as just silently suffering can encourage escalation (based on the simple logic that since you are not crying yet her remarks were not hurtful enough to express her pain).

I don't want to leave the kids, she says she doesn't either.  I'm hoping that buying time will allow her to calm and see things differently, but she is fixated on me being the issue. And regardless of the future, I will still have to deal with her whether in a loving relationship or to ensure the kids are looked after.

You may not be a saint but you likely not the cause of her problems. The problem is that arguing that point is just going to convince her more of the opposite.

You may validate that she sees you as one of the biggest problems at the moment. Actually not biggest but also humongous problem. It boggles her mind often what you don't get. Marrying you was a mistake. That is certainly is all true, at least it is her POV. Validation may help to calm her down and see beyond the problem "you". Validating negative emotions is not easy and requires to voice uncomfortable truths or perceptions. While we tend to express a lot in shades of grey for her negative emotions black can sometimes not be dark enough. And it still must be true. Not easy.

Boundaries are also critical as the less you are involved in fixing perceived and manufactured problems the less you could have been the cause. Deep down she knows she is somehow not all sensible and part of the mess is hers to own but that it is too painful to admit. That needs time.

[lockedout]

Your posting is a carbon copy of me just a few months ago. I was getting nowhere and my mental and physical health were on the decline. My mind was in some very dark places and I wasn't sleeping or eating during this phase. I was a train wreck. This all happened over the holidays. I remember falling apart taking down the Christmas lights wondering if I'd ever see them up again and that things would be very different by the time they went up again. I went to a Bible study session at a nearby church I'd never been to except to vote and met people who took me out to dinner (this will come up again later). I was paralyzed. I didn't sleep for several days and went to work on a day I had no business being there. I'm a firefighter and stood outside the Station watching the fireworks praying that I wouldn't be in such a state of hell the next time the New Year rolled around. I holed up at my beach condo all of New Year's Day, reflecting on things that had happened; realizing how badly I was treated. I thought about the room I'd been sleeping in at the house with a hard mattress, old threadbare sheets, and my clothing and clutter all over the place with my self-help books (reading how to be a "good" husband) piled up on the night table. I wondered how a person could let someone they love live like that? That was a major breaking point. I went to a hotel that night and took a responsible amount of a natural sleep aid and went home the next morning rested. She was totally ripped, not because I didn't call and check in all of the previous day, but because she saw me refreshed and ready to tackle a new day.

I had been looking at rooms and apartments for a while and had the same thoughts you did. I couldn't (and still can't) afford the new place, but luckily my renters leave the condo at the end of next month. I got EXTREMELY lucky finding the house I'm renting a room in. Super clean, quiet, and the owner's wife cooks dinner and he brings it in on Fridays. Furnished at a weekly rate. I haven't returned to my previous states of mental crisis and I don't miss them. I haven't filed for divorce yet because I'm enjoying not having my head shoved back under every time I come up for air. It's a time of rest and healing; those problems can be addressed later. I'm a little homesick and hurting for what I thought could have been. But it's still better than what was before. I'm a better father now than I was living at home. I'm in the best physical shape of my life. I've been out on a few dates; I'm not seeking any relationship, but I've been exposed to healthy interaction. I've reconnected with old friends and made new one I wouldn't have otherwise.

All I can say is that you will still be your kids' father. When you aren't being stomped on every day you can give them the love and attention that you are truly capable of and for which they are deserving.

You don't need permanent plans. Find a way to improvise. I only have one son, but the idea of accommodating him in a new place seemed daunting in the beginning. I improvised, adapted, and overcame. It's better they be uprooted a little then be f***ed up from being around those dynamics.

If your tight with money, it's worth every penny. I don't know details, but she would not let you live the life you're living if she loved you.

On that note, going back to the church and going out to dinner, you will meet people who will love you and accept you for who your are. There are new friends to be made and old ones that miss you.

[Whichwayisup]

Thanks for the responses.

I am physically in good shape and always have been and mentally I am getting stronger by being able to now recognise what has been happening, and at least being aware of my actions (even this morning second guessing whether I should put on a wash for my gym gear early or leave it til later (so as not to provoke a reaction - clearly I have been affected).

Update from last night: we discussed options and W favours me leaving and her taking over the mortgage payments; I have told her I cannot financially afford it and it will take time to save in order to be in that position.  I highlighted that once we separate in my mind e may as well divorce and at some point the house will therefore have to be sold/bought out -tho she claims at the moment she just wants the kids to have a roof over their heads and states that I'm welcome to all the equity in the house whenever it's sold at a later time), I stated I not here as a babysitter  but a father and need to clearly define the welfare of the kids, she states she won't leave without them and I have stated that I am in a position to look after them full time.  She has responded by deciding that I am throwing her shift pattern against her, whilst I told her I was merely stating the facts, she is going to ask her manager for day shifts which will take time to implement and seemed annoyed that everyone else in the rota will be affected; I did query why it wasn't such an issue by affecting the kids and me to no response.  We have agreed that this will take more time and we can try to avoid each other going forward.  She requests that I stay at a friends regardless, which I have said I will at leas consider (but realistically I don't think it's likely).

She also said I seem to be stalling (which I am) I advised I do not want to make rash decisions and need to have all agreements written down to avoid any mis-understandings.  It's becoming increasingly clear to me that she has no intention of re-igniting our relationship.  I have advised that I will go back to visit my family the week after next to give us both space, meaning there's only really next week we will be in the house, which I'm working during the days.

I'm torn as I know she wouldn't treat me this way if she knew how to love, but isn't the illness to blame?  I know she has shared loving moments and I don't honestly believe it's all distorted- but I see that the illness has taken over meaning A) she can't seek help by not knowing what it is and B) is pushing me away as symbol of all her hurt.  I have told her my opinion is that we both need time.  I thought we had a strong connection and my hope is that there's enough for us to work through; at the moment she won't even consider MC to assist a separation nevermind getting back to being a team.

I did feel quite a wave of happiness come over me last night whilst processing my thoughts/feeling that I have not been 100% to blame- yes I need to be accountable for my behaviours, which I am trying to model using the lessons and have been trying for the last few weeks but I can't make her change like I have wanted.  She's not the person I know she has been but at least I see why she is behaving this way.

[lockedout]

The illness is unfortunate and a double-edged sword when it comes to holding it against them. Yes, they more than likely had some event in their lifetime that put them in a perpetual state of fearing abandonmen. It happened at some impressionable time in their life and that part of it isn't their fault.

On the other hand, one of the paramount symptoms is denial. They will become angry and unstable at the suggestion that something is wrong with them. They fight this because they fear that if they aren't "perfect", they'll be unloved and abandoned again. They may make a half-hearted admission about BPD if you're brave enough to confront them with it, but do this at your own peril. If they get therapy, even couples therapy, they seek an ally: one who will appease what they say so they keep coming back. They'll run in the other direction when challenged by a good therapist. In couples' therapy, this is "ganging up" on them. They'll usually be cool as a clam in couples therapy to gain positive rapport with the therapist. In the end, no matter what they're told or whatever treament you "force" themn to go to, you'll always be the one to blame. They simply can't be to blame for anything.

[Whichwayisup]

 

Thanks Lockedout, in a strange way it's re-assuring to read your understanding explanation, I know there's light at the end of the tunnel that I have found myself in and feel rather foolish for getting to this stage with three little innocents in this whirlwind with me, regardless of fault or blame.  The pathway for me is becoming clearer but no less daunting.  This always happened to others, not me  until now

[lockedout]

Where you are right now is a rite of passage in dealing with the detachment of a BPDer. You've kept going back (or simply hung on) for more over the years for several reasons; sense of duty, sense of loyalty, for the kids, because you have Stockholm Sydrome and have gone from recognizing to accepting to numbing to then depending on the poor treatment, and/or you've been discouraged from leaving by well-meaning Bible thumpers who probably could have done a better job (even from a Christian staNPDoint) in their own decision making.

The process of leaving is like being in a location where a major and well-organized hurricane is passing directly over your location. It starts out with the wind picking up, rain on and off and the skies becoming eerie (dark isn't even a good description. Over time the wind and rain pick up and become violent and everything starts getting destroyed. This is where you are right now; the wall of the eye. The start of detachment is when the eye is passing over. The rain stops, the skies, clear, everything is quiet (partly because there's no electricity anywhere and most roads are impassable. This is where you may even have time to assess and see some of the damage and feel sadness for what was lost in the storm. But at least you're safe for the time being and you may have some time to make temporary repairs or temporarily fix doors or windows or secure item that may become projectiles. Or there may not be anything that can be done, so you grab a beer and chat with the neighbors or light off some fireworks (yes, people set off fireworks during the eye of a hurricane on Florida). It's a good spot, but temporary. The other half of the hurricane still has to pass over; hopefully the storm died out a bit as it hit land, but it also may have slowed down. This is where you have to deal with the ups and downs of the healing, the divorce, keeping balance with the kids, etc.

I'm still currently in the eye the storm has slowed for me, but I'm hoping the storm will dies out a little before the eye is done passing over.

[Whichwayisup]

That's a wonderful analogy Lockedout, it's good to think of it in terms of  a rite of passage too!

It does feel quite surreal at the moment and rather disconcerting.  I feel overwhelmed by the similar nature of other's tribulations and have the greatest of respect to everyone who has posted their experiences; many of them resonate deeply with me.  There's simply too much to absorb at times and I do feel like I'm in a maze even within the storm, unsure of how best to navigate to safety.

Can I do it?  hell yes, does that mean I should go immediately – not necessarily.  It struck a chord with me using the phrase “Stockholm syndrome”, whilst aware of it, I hadn’t actually considered it in my situation; I am loosening the link that has kept me close thus far by trying other approaches and gaining little bits of freedom/strength/confidence and not focusing as much on her. 

Whichwayisup

[slimmiller]

I feel for you bro!  I have been there.

First thing of course is take care of you (stall) reason with her while she still 'attempts' to have a shred of decency about her and 'pretends' to keep the kids best interest at heart. I am sorry if I appear to be blunt. Its  not my intentions. I have been in your shoes.

If everything is in your name as it relates to the welfare of the kids (house etc) dont be too quick to give it up. Also if you follow her wishes and leave, it does not bode as well for you in the eyes of the legal system should you decide to fight for more then equal custody. The first one leaving regardless of the reason will be looked at as the one that abandoned the 'family structure'.

A little background on mine,... .

She had almost the same attitude about the kids, family structure etc. While we are now legally divorced, our agreement was to do a quasi 'nesting' arangement where the family home remains intact and we take turns being in the home and watching after the kids. We share custody but she spents barely a few hours a week with the kids. She is so busy with her new life and her foreign exchange student boyfriends that she barely notices the 'family' she is trying to put a good face on for. The long and the short of it is this, once they have the 'moral okay' as they look at it to start a new life they fade away. Sad I know. While folks make comments to me that its sad the kids have no mother, I tell them they are lucky she is not around. She is always spaced out, raging, or in the rare moments when she has a few fleeting glimpses of clarity, she is such an in your face over bearing mother, the kids are almost sacred of her.

I kept things in my name for the kids sake. Gave her her share of the equity in my retirement to offset the equity in the house I owe her. Its working for now.

Its important to keep focused and when you lose that, take a day or two to think. They rely on us being in the FOG where they live and there they are in control. The most maddening challange is climbing out of that in order to be a beacon for the kids in the long run

Stay close to this board too. It has truly saved my sanity at times. Some of those on her have invaluable insight

[Whichwayisup]

Cheers Slimmiller,

The consensus seems to be ride it out and sit tight for the time being; this is my plan as the house and all bills are in my name.  I'm gonna get a free consultation with some legal advice next week and am taking a few days away mid-April to travel to revisit my family. Have been reading "splitting" and "codependent no more" to try and get my head round things as well as taking kids out and treating myself to my first cut at the barbers in five years(usually use my own at home).

She already seems to have been fading away to an extent through avoidance of me or simply buried in her phone even when here... . ( see other new thread about worrying behaviour). 

I am actually now starting to feel quite sorry for her, as the person I knew would simply not behave this way and seems stuck within herself... . Being a beacon for the kids is what is motivation for me at the moment, I won't speak ill of her nor put them in the middle of anything.  I'm prepared for the backlash and smear campaign in the future all thanks to this place (I know I shouldn't but I still want her to come and tell me she realises she's been a berk and will come to MC... . I think that's natural cos i know I'm honestly not yet ready to move on)

[Cmjo]

My ex is a upwBPD, I had to leave after 12 years because I could not take his negativity fear of death and emotional abuse any more, especially when he started splitting our children.

But to punish me after I left he for the last six months has deliberately been obstructive and not collaborating over sharing the responsibilities of the kids, because he doesnt want to make it easy for me to work, have a successful career and be better off... . he has often said I treat him like a pseudo babysitter. Its just when I read those words I thought I should comment, I understand it is your ex who has BPD, but they are your children, both of you need to work, if she has to work isnt the best person to be with thekids you, rather than a nanny. You can accuse her of anything, but she needs you o be a dad first and foremost, so do the kids.

[Whichwayisup]

Thanks cmjo,

You are correct, my use of the term was  certainly not intended in a derogatory way in that context,  it was much more her expectation that I have nothing other to give than would a stranger who could look after them. 

In my case there was an assumed role for me before I had even been made aware of it; so that she can have the benefit of finances and me running around after her schedule.  She views the separation as an extension of our current marriage setup so that I will return to the marital home on her terms/shifts and the only person who will feel the change will be me. I have parked this idea as I agree with you, we are the best people to care for the kids but how does that operate when she shacks up with my replacement after a few weeks/months... . Big impact but only on me.

How have you been coping with the obstructions put in your way?

[Cmjo]

Is the replacement actually living in your house with the kids, where you are expected to go and babysit them?

As a mum I cant believe any woman thinks a father has nothing to offer his kids, just you being there is a major bonus for them, but I am sure they love you and you have lots to give, In this stressful situation it is obvious you should be around even if it makes you feel used, but think of it in another way, work and schedules are a fact of life, its better for everyone that this routine carries on even after the relationship breakup, everyone needs the chance to get better and heal, she does too... . ! Maybe I am too forgiving but thats how I am, i didnt want to hurt him and I am surprisingly not angry at him, I just want both our lives to be better.

Obstruction... . well my situation is different as I am the mum, and I had to leave, I dont think that happens often, the house was built by his father and he was staying put, so to rebuild my life I had to take a deep breath and go, I just found the courage to do it after he had stopped speaking to our 10 year old daughter (because she had rung me at work saying he was treating her badly which he was).

For the first month after I left with the kids he didnot contact us, and they didnt want to ring him, so I had to make arrangements for them to be picked up from school (which he had often done) and I had to take time off work which was exhausting because I run my own business. I have lots of friends who helped me. Then when he started trying to be nice again (thinking I would go back) he collaborated but when he realised I was serious would accuse me of using m as a slave, a babysitter, said I should pay for childcare, so I tried to do this, then he would ring the kids in the morninng and say he would collect them from school, even if I had arranged childcare, so I had to cancel, and the woman obviously didnt want to work for me anymore.

He does shifts evry week which always change, I have to plan my work hours around the days that he is available to pick up the kids. I now have to text him to ask him what the shifts are every week. If I dont text him he wont tell me. Sometimes he changes the shifts at the last minute. I have asked him so many times for a structure to help us all know where we are but he just replies abusively STRUCTURE! How dare you use that word with me, you have wrenched our lives alart and destroyed the family and now you want structure!

It really is a no win situation, he is hurting me and the kids to punish me, it feels like blackmail, make life so difficult for me I have no option but to go back.