when to throw in the towel?

[fall guy]

Hi everyone, this is my first post in undecided.  I filed for divorce four weeks ago, and now I have a tremendous amount of guilt.

The short story is that I have always believed my wife is BPD or ASPD. I don’t know this because every time I convince her to see a therapist, she convinces them there is nothing wrong with her, but she meets all the criteria of BPD with some ASPD and NPD mixed in: intense mood swings, impulsive behavior, projection, MASSIVE abandonment issues (I can’t leave the house without her crying), circular conversations, black/white thinking, deceitfulness (she lies about EVERYTHING), irresponsibility, and lack of remorse.   So after putting up with this for years and a series of really bizarre events, I filed for divorce.  NOW, she starts going to a psychotherapist, admitting everything, and claims she is mentally ill, but won’t give me the details because she thinks it will affect custody proceedings.

Here’s the skinny: over the past few years, she has been arrested for shoplifting three times (all three times she had the kids with her).  The bizarre thing is that she talked her way out of each arrest and was never charged.  She was also arrested for vandalizing a car, fired from her last three nursing jobs (one of which was for missing meds), had various bouts of unemployment, has terrible financial skills (40 bad checks in the past two years alone), and recently was sexting another man she met in a bar trying to arrange a sexual encounter (while she was unemployed and refusing to get a job). This man also happened to be her best friend’s boyfriend, whom she was mad at for some reason and was being vengeful.

The bad part is that she denies all of this: the shoplifting incidents were all mistakes, getting fired was not her fault, and she denies trying to meet the other man (which is clear from the recovered texts). And not only does she deny, but she maliciously attacks me for even thinking she might be guilty of any of this. Not only does she has zero remorse, but she makes me feel absolutely CrAzY.

We tried marriage counseling about six months ago and after three months our marriage counselor literally told her that he didn’t want to see her anymore. He could not take the denial and manipulation any more.

To top it off I found a couple of nice jackets in her closet a couple of weekends ago with tags still on them and took them back to the store to confirm they were stolen. Again she had one of our kids with her at the time. When I confronted her, she become very defensive and insulted that I could accuse her of theft. We argued briefly, but I did not tell her I took one of the jackets back to the store.  About 1:00 in the morning, she woke me up in a rage and cursed me as she hovered over me for suggesting that she might be shoplifting. I was honestly scared.  I didn’t know if she was going to kill me or what.  I let her do this and eventually got up and left. I didn’t tell her until next day that I knew they were shoplifted. She finally admitted to stealing this, but still won't own up to the other shoplifting arrests.

My question is, at what point is enough enough?  I have made every effort to get her to own up to her wrongdoings and see someone, but she wouldn’t do so until I filed for divorce.  NOW she wants to get help.  I shouldn’t have to go to that extreme to get her to seek help, should I?  And I can’t help but to feel like this is just her trying to sooth things over and then… back to the way things used to be.  I am conflicted here.  I don’t want to do this again and again, but we have three kids and to be honest, without me she is going to be an absolute train wreck. 

[hithere]

My question is, at what point is enough enough?

In my opinion you passed that point a long time ago.

I know it is hard to give up on her and she might hit rock bottom without you but you will never be able to change her.  She needs to do that for herself and perhaps hitting rock bottom will do that (but I doubt it). 

In the end, the point where enough is enough will have been sometime in the past and you will have wished you left sooner (from my experience and reading others experiences here).

good luck

[Surnia]

So sorry, fall guy. Hard stuff, you are in!

Your first post here on bpdfamily.com was: "Just can't do this anymore." And I could and can relate to it. Your wife is very disordered. Going shoplifting with kids is really over a boundary in my eyes.

You said you feel guilty. Perhaps you could explore this little bit more. Do you know this workshop: Workshop - US: What it means to be in the “FOG”?

[blecker]

Hi Fall guy.

Tough stuff, I know. You have the patience of a saint.

Did you ever see those parents that hover over their little ones like fog on a cool highway? The little one is trying to grab the table for their fist steps and just as they might fall, the savior reaches in and grabs the child and gathers them into their lap.

Another try at a chair and the same caring hands pluck the little one from harm.

Another try at the low window sill and a shadow crosses those little hands.

At this rate the little one will never walk. They have to try and fail. They have too.

So does your wife. Let her fall. It's her only chance.

PS. Did you know that if you break the cocoon of a butterfly even the slightest bit, the butterfly will never be able to fly? The muscles in their wings become strong enough by the excercise of breaking the cocoon.

Nature doesn't lie.

[sadeyes]

So you've filed for divorce & suddenly she is mentally ill. I suspect if you suddenly called off the divorce it would be back to business as usual in a very short time. She has a lot of work and time she has to put in.

Nothing says you could never get remarried should you decide, but for now you seem to be doing what you need for protection.

Plus, she probably has the best shot for getting help if she has hit bottom.

[daze]

This must be so difficult, but you have to think of your children and their futures.  You probably know what the risks are for children with BPD (w/NPD traits)/aspd mothers.

If I were you, I would use the most recent stolen items to ensure you get custody of your kids.  She will finally have to face consequences.  She will probably hit rock bottom from the divorce, losing custody, and being prosecuted for shoplifting.  Then she will decides if she wants treatment and recovery.

In any case, you will be divorced and have custody of your children.  You can then protect them as much as possible from her.  If she gets treatment and improves, wonderful. If not, you are doing everything possible to protect your children and mitigate the risks of having a mother with BPD (w/NPD traits)/aspd.

Sorry, this is so bad.  It is past time to throw in the towel.

Daze

[lockedout]

I hope you have some documented proof of these shoplifting incidents. At a minimum, if she knows you have it she'll be much more agreeable to whatever you want. If she wants to play rough when you get divorced, judges tend to frown upon parent who take their kids shoplifting.

[Vindi]

hi fallguy, as one poster said, check out the FOG readings, this may hold true for you. You seem to have dealt with alot in the past, and none of it seems to be getting better. And divorce is a huge thing, it will hurt your heart, but think of way down the road as you heal and become more healthy. Even the marriage counselor couldn't see your wife... .   seeing thru her lies and manipulations.

You have choices, either go for the divorce or somehow hope things get better being married, but you've been thru that b4.

I wish you the best on your path... .  

[SadWifeofBPD]

Get out.  And, use the info that you have to get the kids away from her.  The shoplifting, the firings, etc.  Gather up more info as needed.

[tuum est61]

Hi fall guy - you are in a very difficult spot.   

Do check out Surnia's link to FOG.  Also look into Co-dependency: When Our Emotional Issues Affect Our True Availability

Your comment that she will end up a trainwreck got me thinking about my first wife and the first husband of my current wife (a pwBPD).  Both our exes are trainwrecks.  They weren't BPD but they were and still are trainwrecks in every sense of the word. 

The thing is, if I were to leave my current wife, I don't think she would be a trainwreck.  She will pick up the pieces and move on.  pwBPD have finely honed survival skills for the most part - skills that destroy intimate relationships but skills nonetheless.  I think my W is far higher functioning than your W, but I think your W might do fine - after hitting bottom - as some of the members here suggest needs to happen. 

I do agree with the others here that you don't stray from your course because she's going to therapy, but I guess I don't hold as much hope for your success in getting the kids "away from her" as others do. Just keep being the person that your kids can turn to - regardless of the living arrangements. 

The main thing you need to let go of is the need to keep her on the rails.  By going to a therapist, she's finally stopped depending on you to do that for a change, so keep encouraging her by keeping your boundaries.

[fall guy]

My question is, at what point is enough enough?

She needs to do that for herself and perhaps hitting rock bottom will do that (but I doubt it). 

Absolutely.  I know this, I guess I just need to hear it from others as well.  Thanks for the advice.

[fall guy]

You said you feel guilty. Perhaps you could explore this little bit more.

I guess I feel guilty because her whole life is going to get turned upside down.  I'm keeping the house, so she'll have to move.  The parenting plan states the kids' current and future schools will remain the same, so she'll have to make concessions there if she wants to remain in their lives.  She's going to live a lifestyle that is substantially less than shes' used to. 

Me?  I'm refinancing the house and paying her off.  Nothing is really going to change with me other than that and seeing my kids less often.  She's done this to herself, but for some reason I still feel a little guilt.

[fall guy]

PS. Did you know that if you break the cocoon of a butterfly even the slightest bit, the butterfly will never be able to fly? The muscles in their wings become strong enough by the excercise of breaking the cocoon.

Nature doesn't lie.

A very interesting quote.  Thanks for posting it to my story.

[hithere]

It really is true.  I made a million calls for my ex, trying to get her into programs etc... .   and then I found a reasonable priced dbt therapist close to home and even went with her to the first appointment (and paid, we were broken up at the time), she went once... .