Is it normal a mother says "wear something else in front of your father"

[January86]

Hi everybody! I found out about BPD a year ago and started healing, I am doing much better but sometimes I have breakdowns. Btw sorry about my English, is not my native language.

Yesterday I watched the movie "Precious" (about sexual abuse) and even tho my case is definitely not like that (I was only victim of emotional manipulation and occasional verbal abuse, very very occasional physical abuse) it made me think of something that happened when I became a teenager and I need to know if this is normal.

Sometimes my mother would tell me to "wear something else because my Dad was around", particularly when being at home in pijama, to be comfortable I did wear a tshirt without a bra underneath -I dont have big breast so it wasnt lets say notorious- (I am aware some of my words may not be appropiate because of my bad English, it is not what I mean, sorry) . she didnt say it angry or anything, she said in a very natural way, but it made me feel like it was normal that my Dad could look me in "that way" if I was dressed like that.

She said it in few occasions, but I realise now that since I was little I got used to never get change clothes if my father was around, always be sure that the door of my room was closed when I got changed, and I am almost sure it was my Mum who made me think it was wrong to do it other way. I say I am almost sure because I dont remember things properly, it is the feeling I have.

So my question is:

- Is it normal that a mother says “wear something else in front of your father”? I can understand that she would say “wear something else” but I have doubts about focusing that it is because of my father being at home.

- If she thought my Dad could look at me like that –which I can tell never happened- why would she made me feel bad about it?

My mother was always jealous that my father and I got on well and had things in common, she felt excluded, always told me that my father never took care of me properly, he just became like a proper Dad when I got older and all the work of raising me up was already done. I point this out as I read in “how to survive a borderline mother” that mothers that are jealous of their daughters sometimes make them feel that having a good relationship with their dads is “bad” even like “incest”.

I always felt my Dad was a good Dad except for letting my mother treat me like that and definitely never felt my Dad looked at me in that certain way.

I realized today I never again wore a tshirt without a bra again, shorts, or anything like that, even when alone at home to comfortable, just in case my parents would arrive early.

I wonder if I am making a world of something small, if I am overreacting. I have my exams now and I can’t focus…

On one side I feel I am overreacting, on the other side I think, if I have a daughter with my boyfriend, I would never say something like that to her! How could that make her feel and what would she think of her Dad!

Thank you so much. Big hugs to all of you

[Kwamina]

Hi January86 

I don't think you’re overreacting. The remarks your mother made sound a little strange to me too. Good thing you’re reading about how to survive a BPD mother, having more knowledge about the disorder is something I’ve found very helpful. BPD moms can indeed be very jealous of any bonds their children have with other people. It’s like they always want and need to be the centre of attention.

I remember your first post on here about the consequences of being raised by a BPD mom. You felt this was the worst aspect of having a BPD mom and I absolutely agree with you. These consequences hurt me too, realizing how much my mother’s behavior affected my own behavior towards others was very difficult.

Are you still in contact with your mother and if so, does she still make these kind of remarks concerning your father?

[skelly_bean]

Hi January86,

You know, often it's not what our parents say but it's how they say it, how often they say it, and how it makes us feel that's what matters. It sounds like you detected something inappropriate in her voice, like an accusation. Keeping the intense insecurities of borderline parents in mind, it sounds like she may have felt that you were either in danger of being 'ogled' or was jealous/ felt competitive with you.

Oftentimes my mother would take an innocent situation and read something perverse into it. I am still working through my guilt/shame over some things that she said to me. When I was 9 or 10 she accused me of being 'flirtatious'. The word itself wasn't bad necessarily, but the tone was like 'you are a slut'.

BPDs project their own feelings of shame on us. It's just part of the disease.

Trust your experience. If you felt safe with your father, then you were safe. Your mother probably reacted out of fear and jealousy. It's unfortunate that BPD moms can taint our good relationships in this way.

[cleotokos]

It's not normal. My mom never really made me feel bad like that, but sometimes said weird stuff that made me feel strange, like one time she said "sorry to ruin your daddy-daughter romance" when telling me the "truth" (ahem) about how my dad really was the bad guy she likes to make him out to be. My mom was definitely always jealous of my relationship with my dad. I think your mom was jealous, and unable to see beyond herself, that you and your dad are people with your own feelings and boundaries. Does that make sense? For a moment maybe she saw you as a threat to be defeated and you kind of lose your humanity in her eyes. Or, maybe she was abused in the past and that caused her to see something inappropriate? In any case, no it is not normal and she should not have made you feel like you were doing something wrong because you weren't.

[XL]

Mine said a lot of creepy things like that. One time when I was 9 she accused me of "swinging my hips around like a slut" or something similar, which was just wildly inappropriate. She also tried to keep me in age inappropriate, baggy clothing as long as possible. I kind of dressed like a truck driver by the end of high school just so she would shut up. I had a lot of conflicting guilt around dumb things like knee length dresses, heels, and bikini tanks up until my late 20's. I still feel really awkward in skirts and shorts.

I think a normal parent would be like "Ladies can wear __at this age in our society for __reasons." in a calm voice while shopping for school clothes.

Insinuating there was some sort of incest motive was probably an attempt to villify your father.

[FilmFemme]

Thank you for this question and thanks to others who are chiming in!

I had very similar experiences with my BPD mother!  She also would say things like, "your father doesn't like fat women" in regards to why I should lose weight.  Implying that my father should find me attractive?  It was confusing to me.  For a while I even worried that maybe he did have feelings for me, because of her strange attitude. 

So I really like what skelly bean said about how they say it and how it makes you feel.  Your mom and mine (and others!) seem to have meant it in a way that made us uncomfortable.  Mine did other things that were borderline sexual, but for the most part like you it was verbal / emotional abuse and very occasionally physical. 

Yay for healing!

[Kasey_1991]

My mother whom I suspect has BPD would say things like this all the time. I remember one time, I was about 10, and we must have locked the keys in the car and I had to crawl in through the trunk (I am a little hazy on the details). I went head first into the truck and after the door was unlocked, I received a verbal "beating" from my mother. Why? Because my "legs had been up in the air and there were truck drivers sitting nearby". She kept saying disturbing things that are inappropriate to say to your 10 year old daughter, such as, "I bet you have that truck driver a big thrill." When I told my husband this story, he was shocked and mortified that someone would think that way about their own 10 year old daughter, especially since I only had the most innocent of intentions.

[Althea]

Hi friend.  I really wanted to respond to this one, as I come from a very healthy, loving, fun, family, with happily married parents, and a close relationship with my dad.  My mother would have never, ever said something like that, ever.  It would have struck me as totally creepy.  It was my home.  The place where you get to be comfortable.  I would slip my bra off the min I came home, as I do now.  Anyways, I wanted to give you my two cents, just because it might be helpful to know what someone from a background like mine thought.  Hugs to you friend, on your journey of healing!   

[eniale]

If I were you, I would trust my intuition/instincts.  You say you never felt that your Dad looked at you "that way."  If he had, you would not say that, so I bet you are correct -- he never looked at you that way.  Sounds like your mother is jealous.  I know someone who was a young mother and was wearing a pair of shorts & pushing her baby in a stroller.  She lived near her parents.  She visited them later and her Dad said "Oh, you were the cute girl I saw walking down the block."  I really think (she does, too) that it was meant as a compliment, to make her feel good... .  she said her mother walked out of the room, very angry.  When she was growing up, she was told "once you are 18, you are out of the house."  At the time, she felt the remark came from both parents.  She decided to marry her high school sweetheart, because she was scared to be out and alone at 18.  A month before she married, her Dad said to her "You know, you don't have to do this."  But the wedding was already in the final stages of preparation.  (The marriage ended in divorce; they were just too young.)  I wonder if it wasn't her mother behind the rule that she had to leave by 18, and maybe her dad just backed her mother up at first to keep peace in the family.  Her mother is old now, has dementia, and her "thing" is that her dad has "girlfriends."  I think this woman has always been very insecure and jealous, even of her own daughter.  It is probably not that uncommon.  Again, trust your feelings, if you never felt your dad was inappropriate, chances are he never was.

[January86]

Thanks for your replies! Your experiences really are similar to mine, I perfectly identified with the “not so important what they say as how they say it”, and also for your perspective Althea, I don’t know what is normal sometimes, and I am happy that is the way normal families are, it is a relief as I want to have a normal family in the future.

In my case, I think that jealously is a factor but also my Mum projects herself in me, that’s why she made me be such a perfectionist and when she saw a defect on me she was soo embarrassed (I can still remember my acne period).

When I grew up she always remarked how she used to have my same body figure, and I remember once when I was 13, on a holiday, I wore a dress it was the new trend that summer. She told me something like: “you look very sexy”. I just wanted to look “cool” I didn’t want to look sexy! or thought about guys wanting to have sex with me! I was starting to fancy boys but just like a game. The worst part is that it sounded like “I used to look like you and I am proud of you being sexy” when I don’t think it’s age appropriate.

After writing my first post something usually happens to me happened again, I started doubting of my own version to the point I can’t remember anymore the exact words she told me about not to wear in front of my Dad. It’s scary sometimes I don’t know what it is real and the more I think of it the more it disappears from my mind.

I try to think of objectives things I know that happened and I guess the fact I starting questioning about it is proof, also the fact I still do feel embarrassed to not wear bra at home. She looks at my body weirdly, sometimes like proud but makes me feel exposed in a sexual way. Also I do remember not long ago when I was in my grandparents house she made a remark –I don’t remember what- but I do remember thinking “oops, maybe I should be careful to wear this, or take this off, in front of my Grandad”. It’s disgusting at the moment I thought how stupid I was I didn’t realize before I should be careful also in front of my Grandad because he is a man like the rest.

Kwamina, thanks for your question  . At the moment I live at home with my parents, after my degree I am studying for National Exams for a job. I have breakdowns and I am not as focused as I need to be as only 40 people out of 2000 pass the exams so I have to be at 100%, and it’s memorizing work I need my mind in blank. My Mum she is not totally BPD now, I even talked to her about it and she is sorry, but then again she repeats some behaviors and even when she is normal she is the most negative person, so every time she critics people or turns something positive into negative my mind remembers everything, all of it, and I can’t stand her. Also sometimes I notice she is fake to me, I can’t distinguish if she is trying to be nice or faking it. anyway I am aware this is much better than most BPD cases that usually go to worse.

I am looking at places because lately this affects me, so after this exam I will probably move out, but the thing that makes me stay is my cat. I found her lost when she had few days alive and since them we do everything together, she helped me to cope with all of this. She can stay here with my parents, but very sad and bored as she needs to play and my parents play very little with her. The thought of her alone at home when my parents are working and me in another place… I guess if I can’t handle it anymore I’ll move but it breaks my heart. 

Thank you again, you really help me.  Hugs to all of you!

[cleotokos]

January I know just how you feel not knowing what is normal or what boundaries are appropriate. I'm so sad to hear you may be separated from your cat as I had a special kitty too that was a very good friend to me. Can you not take her with you?

Stressful situations can really affect all areas of our lives; you may be stressed about school and that is spilling over into your relationship with  your parents and making that harder to deal with. When I was in school and very stressed I started having crying spells for apparently no reason. A friend of mine suggested I take a vitamin B complex and as simple as it sounds, it really changed my life!

[January86]

I have realised how long are my posts, sorry! Once I start I can't stop!

Btw,thanks Cleo! I'll try the vitamin advice. Also, if I move they usually don't let pets, but I would move very close to see her most days heh cats are the best.

[kharma]

My BPD mother has said worse. She used to accuse my father and I of having "something going on", because we didn't get along. I remember trying to talk to her about our relationship and she kept saying "is something going on between the two of you when I'm not home? Is something going on?" Crazy. She also was jealous of the times that we did get along, and preferred that we hated each other. I think she secretly encouraged it. Both of my parents are BPD.

[boppy]

No, it is not at all normal. I'm a mother and I would never think of my husband as being sexually attracted to my daughter. 

However, my mother did this to me once--she attacked me for not wearing a bra when I was 11 or so and it was clearly something about how I appeared in front of my father. However, she had never bought me a bra!  So how was I supposed to get a bra? I did not even know I needed a bra.

I don't know what was wrong with her. She didn't have BPD. NPD maybe. I don't know. She would forget I was a child all the time and did not have my own money, control over my life and depended on her for things.

But no, it is not at all normal. I'm really, really sorry. There are so many issues that could cause a person later. Just the shame over one's body and normal development, for example.  Being made responsible for something that could never be up to you anyway--if an adult is attracted to a child, this is obviously the adult's illness, not the child's doing.

However, given some recent issues that have arisen in the life of my BP family member I wonder if this is a common thing for people with BPD to have extreme jealousy and for the targets to be inappropriate, like children. Does anyone know the answer to that?

Is it usual for borderline mothers or stepmothers to become pathologically jealous of father-daughter relationships?

Both of my parents are BPD.

Wow, I can't imagine what that was like. Your mother's attitude is very terrible.

I want my children to be very close to their father, both boys and girls and yes, the girl likes her father better than me in a certain way--she is a daddy's girl--and he is absolutely smitten with her and I'm very happy about that. A normal person is not threatened by a close child-parent bond. It is and should be the closest bond people have. I can survive without my husband (though I'd rather not!) but my daughter needs her father completely. And since I am completely crazy about my children, why wouldn't my husband be? So of course he adores her--she is adorable.

A psychologically normal parent understands this.

[Clearmind]

What is normal? This is such a simple yet complex question. I grew up in a BPD household – the hardest thing for me were the contradictions e.g. I could not slam doors yet my father could hit me. Things just didn’t add up and it made it very difficult to gauge what was normal when I was older and when I was an adult.

I have meaning to buy this book because I was told it was a good, simple guide: An Adult Child's Guide to What's 'Normal' - John Friel. This thread sparked me to go look for it again.

To gauge what is normal now I listen to my gut. My head talk can misguide me sometimes because the inner critic, queue childhood trauma, gives mixed/confusing messages. When my belly starts to churn, my heart starts to race or my face burns up I know I need to act or I know something does not sit right.

These are the faulty beliefs we are questioning. Questioning childhood beliefs to see if they fit who we are today – adults.

[hopesprings]

I always read something that resonates when I check in with this forum.  This time, some of these comments sound exactly like things my mom said that I never understood.  She was jealous of the fact that I figured out how to relate to my father, mostly by focusing on things he was interested in.  I remember one time I went to a basketball game with my father when I was in college.  When I came back to the house with him, she took one look at me and told me I looked like a "slut". I was wearing a perfectly appropriate outfit.  She preferred that I wear baggy clothes.  She also said that my father didn't want us to get fat and that he hated fat women. I don't recall him ever saying anything about that.  My sister and I both developed eating disorders and I do remember him being very worried about my sister getting so thin. I never understood why my mom would make nasty comments out of the blue like that, but after reading here, I guess it is consistent with BPD behavior.

[boppy]

What is normal?

For a parent-child relationship what is normal is for the parent to protect the child and nurture the child and ensure his/her well-being in the future.

It is VERY confusing for me also. It used to seem totally normal to be verbally abused. I barely noticed. I remember how strange it was when a friend heard my father talking to me and was shocked beyond belief. I was so surprised--'you mean your parents don't tell you you are a loser and they regret paying for any of your college'?  I think that was some of the craziness that was being heaped upon me at the time, after I graduated from a top university with honors but did not get a super high paying job immediately afterward.

The weird thing is I cannot tolerate it now--at all.  So maybe that's also strange.  I am super upset if anyone yells at me or calls me names. That used to be something that I often totally accepted as normal.

[January86]

Thanks for the new replies

Boppy you mention something really interesting:

There are so many issues that could cause a person later. Just the shame over one's body and normal development, for example.

When I asked my boyfriend about all this he told that maybe that influenced me to by shy about my body.

I was a bit shocked by his realization, shy? Am I so shy?   he told me he didn’t want to push me in that area that’s why he didn’t bring it up earlier, as anyway I was progressing little by little, some days I felt shy and others I was ok. I had no idea he had that in mind! I knew I am shy, but I thought many girls were like that too... . never thought about it being an issue! But know that I think about it….

I’ve been for years with my boyfriend and I still feel embarrassed to shower if he’s around, he has to wait to brush his teeth for example. Also I needed to go to the swimming pool, but I  think a lot about how to do to shower at home instead of in the place, as there are not private showers. In the gym I never change… Now I think about it, it is not normal!

I like my body, sometimes I’m embarrassed of body hair but most girls don’t perfectly shave to go to swimming pool so I don’t know what is wrong .

Everyday I realize I have so many things to work on…it's a challenge but it’s frustrating. The worst part is that I don’t know what else I have to fix, what if I never get to know what else is wrong?

[Clearmind]

January sometimes we need to remind ourselves that our parents may not have not always be right. We are brought up, at least I was, to believe that my parents and my entire family were the best, the funniest, the most together. I cannot begin to tell you how dysfunctional they are... . I see it now I'm an adult - as a child I thought they were normal.

Work on dispensing those faulty beliefs.

[musicfan42]

No it's not normal for a mother to say that to her own child!

I think my father has BPD and he had an issue with women looking like "sluts" too. Wonder if it's a BPD issue?

[LetItBe]

No, that is not "normal."

My situation is different in that my father sexually abused my sister and me.  My sister recalls a time that she was about 7 years old and had been playing on the floor, wearing a dress.  My dBiP/uBPD mom later said to her, "No wonder you can't keep your dad out of your room!  Look at the way you were acting (or moving, etc.)!"   

I would NEVER EVER accuse a child of being responsible for the way an adult acts, looks at them, etc.

[Cordelia]

I also heard these creepy type of remarks from my mother, about my father and about "boys" in general.  How they only wanted one thing, etc.  She was completely disgusted by sex, seeing it as a gross physical trial that was useful only to manipulate others.  And she was obsessed with the sex lives of my sister and I, getting really involved in our early dating relationships in ways that were incredibly damaging and inappropriate, things that I can't forgive to this day.     Keep in mind the sickness is theirs, not yours.  Though of course it affected you.  Today I am much more concerned about modesty and revealing "too much" in my dress or behavior than most of my peers.  I don't think it's necessarily bad (or necessarily good) but it's just a result of my mother shaming me early in life for my natural physical development. 

Everyday I realize I have so many things to work on…it's a challenge but it’s frustrating. The worst part is that I don’t know what else I have to fix, what if I never get to know what else is wrong?

Maybe there's nothing wrong, and nothing to fix.     Everyone lives their lives affected by the triumphs and tragedies of those that came before them, both immediate relatives, and people they knew more distantly.  No one is immune to the effects of living with other human beings.  "Normal" is such a tough concept - in a way, no one is, in the sense that everyone's experience is unique and affected by particular experiences and conditions that took place only in that moment.  Your experience is no worse (and no better) than anyone else's, in an absolute sense, even though others' experiences may have been easier to deal with or more pleasant to live through.  I know that can be hard to accept when your past is painful, and it's natural to question how something so painful, that felt so WRONG, can be okay.  No one can answer that but you and no one decent would presume to tell you how to feel.  But in my own case I went from totally rejecting the idea that my mom should have behaved the way she did to accepting that she did what she did for her own reasons, that were tied to issues and events that went far beyond myself.  How she behaved to me and still behaves is awful to be around and no one should have to be treated the way she treats people, but I've come to think that despite how painful it was, my upbringing gave me some valuable tools to build a happy life for myself today, and an appreciation for the fact that unlike my mother, I have the ability to love others and treat them well and build warm, caring and respectful relationships with others, and live out my dreams and be proud of my accomplishments.  My mother may have been the author of some bad memories, but she couldn't take away my innate ability as a human being to learn and grow and heal and contribute something to make the world a better place.  Long story short, what is "right" about you likely far, far outweighs what is "wrong."   

[kharma]

No, that is not "normal."

My situation is different in that my father sexually abused my sister and me.  My sister recalls a time that she was about 7 years old and had been playing on the floor, wearing a dress.  My dBiP/uBPD mom later said to her, "No wonder you can't keep your dad out of your room!  Look at the way you were acting (or moving, etc.)!"   

I would NEVER EVER accuse a child of being responsible for the way an adult acts, looks at them, etc.

I am so sorry you and your sister had to go through that. Words can't describe how disgusting that comment was.

[kharma]

I also heard these creepy type of remarks from my mother, about my father and about "boys" in general.  How they only wanted one thing, etc.  She was completely disgusted by sex, seeing it as a gross physical trial that was useful only to manipulate others.  And she was obsessed with the sex lives of my sister and I, getting really involved in our early dating relationships in ways that were incredibly damaging and inappropriate, things that I can't forgive to this day.    

My BPDmother is the same way. It's one of the reasons why I always kept my relationships private from her. I recall when my sister started dating as a teenager, my BPDmother would be parked a block down from my sister's boyfriend house, spying on them. She would also listen to their phone conversations and eavesdrop whenever he visited.

She accused me of having lesbian relationships with my best friends. She thought it was abnormal that I wanted to hang out with them so much instead of "men" (I was dating I just never told her about it), and anytime I had a falling out with one of them, she would insinuate something 'sexual' must have been going on between us. Later, she would ask why I was such a loner, and what happened to all my friends.  Not sure if the mental illness causes her to do this intentionally but its very manipulative