Note to remember for us all nons.

[angeldust1]

I once read that the average pwBPD cannot soothe thierselves.  All of us get upset,  we even last out.  But the BPD,  cannot find in within themselves to soothe the hurt/the anger.  Can you imagine what that must feel like.    If I have a delimina,  I ponder it,  I act on it,  and if it is the wrong choice,  I deal with it or try to fix it.    Then do not have the ability to do this.  I don't know what goes on in thier minds.   I have found that,  thats when the irrational behavior comes full force.   

We can find ways to calm ourselves down,  but they stay in such high resolution mode,  it wears them out.  I think that is why most of the time ds39 is almost always tired or sick. I used to think he was a hypochondriac,  and just wanted attention.  I no longer think that.  They really are tired from the life they life.   Then,   becasue they can't calm down they are so keyed up then they can't sleep,  which adds to the frustration,  the irrational thinking the anger,   and so goes the cycle. 

We must tell ourselves everyday,   THIER BRAINS ARE WIRED DIFFERENTLY THAT OURS,  AND IN AS MUCH AS WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEM, THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND US EITHER!]

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Another point is, that as they cannot effectively regulate their inner experience, they rely on the outside environment (including us) to help regulate their emotions/help soothe them.

We can in some cases help in that process by validating, and calm communication, as opposed to escalating.

[angeldust1]

Good point pessim!

[peaceandhope]

Angeldust,

Not only that, they don't understand themselves either. Very poor insight.

My dd is also either sick or tired all the time.

[angeldust1]

yes Peace,

It used to bother me so much that he was always sick or tired,  it became such an issue that I used to say I wonder what will he be today?

Once he came over with his NEW gf,  I'd only met once,  never met her children.  I could tell this was never going to work,   although I really liked the girl,  the two boys were completely disrespectful and down right sarcastic as soon as they arrived. She couldn't even corral them to say hello.    But I said Oh well,  his life.  When he arrived he announces he's not feeling well,  and went and laid down in the guest room. I couldn't believe even he would do this... .  

Here I was with a girl I'd only met once,  with two wild boys running all over my house,  changing the TV,  pressing every button to anything they could find,   and demanding me around.  They were about 7 and 9yrs.  ( It was surreal,   I thought I was going to loose my mind before the night was over.  And of course the two kids didn't like ANYTHING I COOKED. Finally the crazy night ended,  I wanted to tell him  not to ever do that to me again,  but as luck would have it they broke up soon after.   

But how could a grown man do that to anyone?   He would have had me beheaded if I'd done that to him.

Is this typical of BPD? Or is that just totally inconsiderate?

[peaceandhope]

Angel,

I noticed the are not only tired physically, but emotionally also my dd is tired.

She has friends, but it takes lot of effort for her to keep friendships. She never calls them. Even if they call, she is so tired she does not talk to them and I have to give them some excuse. 

peaceandhope

[js friend]

 

peaceandhope my dd doesnt often return her friends phone calls either. I very rarely even see her physically calling anyone either. Her friends have  shown up at the door she wouldnt want to see them... .  just seemed too tired to participate in a conversation.  Talking things out is a great way to self soothe but dd18 doesnt seem to have this ability unless she is in a crisis and then she is too upset to really listen to what is being said .For a while we had a lot of the hypersexual behaviour that probably made dd feel great in the short term but then ashamed and lousy later on. :'(

what I did notice when dd lived at home was there was a pattern. At first I just thought it was a teenage thing but it was too extreme to be normal. It wasnt unusal for days to go by without dd speaking to anyone ,... .  just total silence. Not even in her bedroom. wouldnt even say hi or bye.So hard to see dd depressed and suffering like that. :'(

Now I use it to guage how she may be feeling and where she is in her cycle. If she is chatty she is usually in a manic phase, and if she hardly speaks then she is usually coming down and feeling depressed. If my dd would only talk  more it would help her so much but because dd has placed so much secrecy in her life she finds it hard to let people in.   

[sk8mom]

Angeldust,

I am new to this and a methodical, analytical thinker but this does not compute.  You are correct, it is so contrary to our thinking and so complicated that it is exhausting.  I have so much to learn, as i am sure everyone here, reads, researches, digs for answers and then works hard everyday in coping, changing our language and being conscientious of our words.

I am dealing with the sexual activity which scares me to sleeplessness.  She wants friends and attention, yet who gives that really freely, is a male. 

dd16 psychiatrist is excellent (thank God) and he has her on 2 meds that was able to slow her brain down my about 50% and reduced her depression.  That helped but the rest of the equation is herself and motivation.  What common ground do we have to motivate them and do things with them that they find interesting.  It is so difficult.  She loves acting and dancing but each time she joins a group it is measured by how much people pay attention to her.  I cringe when she gets out of rehearsal and wonder if the lack of attention and sometimes rejection will be too much for her and she quits.

so many questions, so few answers

hugs and love  

[angeldust1]

Yes sk8,

This disorder is as confusing as it gets.  Once you think you've gotten it,  something else throws you a curve.   

All you can do read posts,  articles and watch videos here in our forum.  You will find some solace in that we all have to suffer the same pain of rejection,  hatred for nothing we've done,   and heartache from the one we love so much.   

How can anyone ever explain how this disorder works.  They are really the only ones,  and they know no other way  but to be but BPD.  My pwBPDis 39 I thought I'd seen it all,  but I guess there is still more for me to learn,  but it does help to know there are others that understand and deal with it as well.  I just take it one day at a time. 

Sending hugs, understanding and prayers your way.

 angeld

[pessim-optimist]

Yes sk8,

This disorder is as confusing as it gets.  Once you think you've gotten it,  something else throws you a curve.   

Yes, that's the nature of BPD: expect the unexpected   

I think as we get better at it, and get our 'sea-legs' so to speak, we can avoid the ever-present whirlpools, and take the unpredictable waves in stride. 

Oh, and angel - you probably have seen just about all; however, when you learn new skills and start changing your behavior, the dynamics in your relationship with your son is going to change. And he will start behaving differently - so that will be very new, and again unpredictable... .  

So, if you can get yourself ready for that, you will be less surprised and better able to handle it, when the time comes... .  

[peaceandhope]

J's friend,

I feel my dd is not really emotionally bonded to any of her friends.  I have not seen her making plans to meet people( going out to movies or dinner, coffee etc  like regular youngsters do ) But when her friends call her to do something, then she will drop everything ( even if she has important exam or tests) and will go. She cannot say no to her friends.  But she wont  call them unless she needs something. But she will call or text her bf constantly. Very interesting disease with interesting behaviors

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[BioAdoptMom3]

Reading your comments has really hit home for me!  My DD too is always either sick, hurt or tired, but I have noticed its worse when things are not going well. For instance the other day at her softball tournament she stole home and was trampled on by the catcher.  Her coach had to help her up and from the looks of things, it probably did hurt, a lot, but as soon as she realized she was safe and had scored the tying run, she was FINE, all smiles, excited, etc.!  Had she been called out, she would have probably still been nursing her injuries right now! I have also noticed the same thing with relationships.  She won't make the effort to contact them, but she will want to drop everything when they call.  I think that is probably the fear of rejection.  If I call her, she might not want to talk to me which is perceived as a rejection, but if she calls me I am happy and excited  as she WANTS to be my friend!  This is all so complicated, but hearing your comments makes me feel so not alone!

[peaceandhope]

bioadoptmom,

Yes this  disease is very complicated indeed.

I do not know  the evolutionary purpose of this disease  

I just wish that my dd did not have to go through this terrible disease.

All I want for my child is to be happy and peaceful. I feel so helpless as mom that I cannot give her these.

peaceandhope

[js friend]

J's friend,

I feel my dd is not really emotionally bonded to any of her friends.  I have not seen her making plans to meet people( going out to movies or dinner, coffee etc  like regular youngsters do ) But when her friends call her to do something, then she will drop everything ( even if she has important exam or tests) and will go. She cannot say no to her friends.  But she wont  call them unless she needs something. But she will call or text her bf constantly. Very interesting disease with interesting behaviors

peaceandhope you could be talking about my dd!

I never hear my dd intiating to meetup with her friends either, or tell a  friend  that she cant meet them now or cant do something for them today and will do it tomorrow. The real or imagined frantic efforts not to ababndoned and the object consistancy is very apparent in my dd when she meets someone new.

To begin with they cant seem to get enough of each other.dd is up at the crack of dawn to go meet them, starts dressing like them or wearing their clothes, endless/texts phone calls at all times of the day and night, and then talks about them less and less... . it fizzles out and dd never mentions them again and If I ask she says she doesnt know what has happened to them.

Her longterm friends have definetley put a lot of emotional effort to keep the friendships going but dd seems very lack lusture about them. Often she wont return their calls or respond to their texts... . but if it was a new friend she would be all over them. Its like she puts her old friends into the friendship zone,... . but its not exactly the friendship zone if you know what i mean.

Same with exb/f. DD has been obsessing over him for for years, and was texting and calling endlessly to the point where he couldnt prepare for his exams.

Its so sad to see this cycle repeat itself over and over again.   

This is defintley a cruel disease :'(

[angeldust1]

Actually Peace,

I don't believe it is a diease,  but rather a disorder.  If it were a diesase there might be some cure,  it is a disorder of the brain.  More or less just a mental disorder. 

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

[MammaMia]

BPD is a mental disorder.  There is no cure.  It is devastating to those who suffer from it and those who love someone with BPD. 

PwBPD cannot self-soothe.  Their emotions and their reactions to them are extreme. They are hypervigilant to sound and light.  Their brains are on overload all the time which causes mental confusion, and they interpret things differently than we do.  In addition, BPD is often accompanied by other mental illness such as paranoia, depression, PTSD, schizo-affective disorder, bipolar mood swings, and OCD.  They fear abandonment and emotional closeness at the same time. They lack a sense of who they are and often mirror others around them to find a sense of identity.  There are huge trust issues.  They fly into rages and sometimes become violent.  They lie.  They are often self-destructive and self-medicate with alcohol or other drugs.   And yes, they suffer from on-going fatigue and often feel ill, which can be used as a tool to avoid issues and people.

BPD is indeed very complex, frustrating, and cruel.   It is necessary for nons to learn the rules of the disorder.  Set boundaries.  Validate.  Speak slowly and clearly.  Discuss one topic at a time.  Listen... . do not interrupt and do not argue.  Identify triggers and then choose your words carefully.  Communication is difficult for pwBPD as is showing emotion.

There are excellent articles and other forms of information on this board to help sort through the dos and don'ts of non behavior, and it is very important to learn how to provide self-care as well.

Nons have a huge burden.  We really need to support each other, because most people do not understand BPD.  This board is a wonderful place to be.  We all get it.

[angeldust1]

Mamamia,

Very well said,  it is so hard to understand this disorder, I too find that a lot of the time they do have many other symptoms or traits that mimic other disorders,  ie: OCD, mood swings,  Bi Polar as well as PTSD.    They really have so much to deal with it,  it wears me out thinking about it.  My heart breaks for my pwBPD39,  but I still have to remember it doesn't matter how much I cry about his condition,  it still will not stop his brain from working overtime,  or make him normal.  I must keep that into perspective.  Prayer is our only hope,  and thats a lot!

[MammaMia]

Angel -

I too have a BPD son who is 39.  My man child.  I love him very much.  However, sometimes it takes all the control and patience I can muster to listen to and respond appropriately to his distorted thoughts and rants.  I need to remind myself that this is a disorder that he cannot control and whatever flare-up just happened will pass.  Could be today or tomorrow or in 3 minutes.  Sometimes I get very sad after talking to him, and other times I want to laugh out loud at how outrageous his views can be (of course I don't).  He is independent and lives on his own, but he knows I am here for him.  He contacts me if he needs to.  I am the only person he trusts to share his innermost thoughts with.  While other people think he is highly intelligent, confident, capable, and a bit eccentric, they are totally unaware of his BPD.  I find that amazing.

Our BPDs are not going to change because they can't.  With proper therapy, they can attempt to modify their behavior, but the disorder is never going away.  I have heard some people say they have experienced improvement as their pwBPD got older.  Others say things get worse.

Like you, I take things one day at a time.  And yes... . I pray... . A LOT!

[peaceandhope]

Mammamia, you summarised it very well and precisely.

My dd was soo attached to me since baby. Always  following me evvery where.  She would call almost every hour for very small things.

Now becasue of the this cruel illness, I had to distance myself with very minimal basic contact.   I do not call her daily basis like I used to. I call her only as needed basis. This kills me. I love my child so so so much.  I want to make everything better for her. I want to make the "ouchy" go away by kissing, but I cannot. My poor child has to suffer as a resultof bad gene. I wish I could take away her pain. Iam soo  helpless. I cant win with this illness

 

[MammaMia]

peace

I am so sorry.  Yes, you are correct when you say we are not able to be as close to our BPD children as we want.  This terrible disorder is in control.  I have learned to give my BPDs39 space.  He does better when I help only when asked.  He is a grown man and I do not need to coddle him.  In fact, he resents it.  He needs his space and so do I.  A break in the stress. It is ok.

I have learned to back off, just like you.  I believe pwBPD have so little control over their lives, that even simple things like regulating contact with us is very important to them.  It is something they CAN control.  If I do not hear from him, he is doing well.   If he is struggling he calls me... . often many times a day.  If he is NC for too long, I will find a reason to call him about something ... . just to chat.

I am sure your daughter loves you very much.  It is just so hard for her to communicate her emotions.  I will never have a "normal" relationship with my son, and I accept that.  It is what it is... .

[vivekananda]

some of you refer to BPD as a disease. Angeldust, you are right, it is a disorder. It is a personality disorder which means that it is based on the behaviours a person displays. Research suggests that underlying those behaviours is both how the brain works and what the person's thinking is (these two are not the same).

So, this means it can be successfully overcome. It is possible to change the way we think and do things. By applying particular tools and practices, combined with a motivation to change, we can all change ourselves. The successful BPD therapies are based on this.

Validation and values based boundaries are ways to change ourselves as parents. We can change the way we interact with our children to improve our relationships with them. We can change the way we respond. After all, if we want to improve our relationships with our children, shouldn't we look at what we can do?

Change isn't easy, is it? We want our children to change, why don't we embrace change for ourselves?

Vivek     

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[peaceandhope]

Mammamia, it is  sad that we can never have a normal relationship with our BPD kids. Eventhough  its very painful for us as parents, but  my heart goes out for all these BPD children. For no fault of theirs they have to suffer so much including their families distancing themselves.

Vivek , you put it very beautifully. Yes we have to change in order to both improve our relationship with our BPD kids and also  to arm ourselves with tools so we can encourage our BPD kids to help themselves.

I love you all. You all are such a blessing in my  and my dd life.

 

[angeldust1]

MamaMia, 

I can certainly relate to you... . both of us having sons the same age.  Usually it seems to affect more females.  MypwBPD,  lives alone,  and sadly enough constantly says he is lonely and wants to have a relationship with someone.  He drives away every single person away,  if not with his irrational behavior or his sense of urgency about everything must be done now,  if not sooner,   be it man woman or child and... . has not idea why.  He has had no contact with me for more than one year and a half.  Some days I think I will just go  absolutely mad with sadness from missing him so much,   I realize,   that if I try to make the first move he will just push me away again like he has for the past 25 years. THIS IS SO VERY HARD,  I sometimes,  think how can I endure anymore of this isolation? (it is however better than the disrespect  coldness and indifference he is to me)   

I realize I have to wait for him, because it is the only way... . but will this time ever come?  If he is receiving  no help at all for his disorder,  how can he realize he has a tremendous problem.

My daughter has cancer and he has had very little,   contact  with even  her.  I even thought maybe this is why she was diagnosed,  to bring him to reality,   but then I felt horrible for thinking this.  This daughter,   for the most part perfect in every way,  should have to suffer so cruely for her brother.  But even this did not bring him back.  He is still as distant as ever.  He has to know how I,  let alone she,  is suffering. 

He has to know the pain we feel from his absence,   and perhaps loosing his only sibling.

What,  will ever bring him to his senses?  It is so hard not to think of him as being,  just cold and heartless.  Or does he even realize the magnitude of all of this?   I wonder?

[vivekananda]

I was talking about this very thing this morning with dh and our T. My dh asks exactly the same sort of qtns you have. I think I understand, but it still hurts. The last time I allowed myself to get hurt was when dd32 did not turn up for the lunch that was with her granma, my mum's 101st birthday. It was supposed to be just the three of us. I organised everything, all she had to do was show for an hour or two.

Our T explained it this way. Relationships is the key thing with pwBPD. They are desperate to have relationships but they push people away. They do this, she said, to protect themselves because the relationship causes them 'psychic distress' (it does their head in).

My explanation was more callous. I offered this explanation: they know that there is something not right with them, they know that deep down they are good people, so they have to find someone to blame. Those they are closest to are the easiest to blame.

I think, on reflection, the better explanation is the one the T gave.

My mum is now 103, the last time dd saw her was at the extra large family celebration of the 100th birthday, when she was one of about 50 people. She only lives 25 mins away. I am not looking forward to when mum does die and dd's response, I believe, will be melodramatic.

cheers,

Vivek    

[MammaMia]

I do not believe pwBPD understand how they hurt others by pushing everyone away.  My son also refuses to speak to his sister.  He hates her.  He has a list of the horrible things she has done to him... . a list that exists only in his mind.  She in turn says, if he cannot act like a human being, she has nothing to say to him.  She does not fully grasp the depth of his disorder, and sees him as a spoiled, manipulative person who is constantly seeking attention from me, rather than a someone with a mental illness.  She has seen his frustrating behavior first-hand and simply says she does not have time for his "games".   Their alienation makes me very sad.

I interact with both of them... . but it has to be separately.

On occasion, he also claims he is lonely... . BUT he screens all his phone calls and if someone does visit him, he will not answer the door.  Other days he tells me he is so sick of people that he just cannot tolerate being around them, and he does not like to be physically touched by anyone.  Is this something you also experience? 

I often wonder if being so distant is a pre-emptive strike against being rejected by others.

Or does he really just want to be left alone?   I am tired of trying to figure it out, and so

I have learned to let him do his own thing.

He contacts me when he wants or just stops over.  If he cannot reach me or if I am not home, he usually becomes upset and/or angry.  I do not know what will become of him if I should get sick or die.  I suspect he would see it as the ultimate rejection.

[angeldust1]

Mama&Vivek ,

The way it was explain to me,  is that they push people away,  actually the ones they love the most,  so that they can reject us before we reject them.  Sort of an  "I'll get rid of you before you have the chance to get rid of me"  that way I will save myself from any more rejection.

My daughter has a small  relationship with my son only because of her father who would chastise my son for hurting his little princess.  And Yes,  she truly is a princess.  She is the essence  of love sweetness caring and two small children and takes care of them completely in spite of her illness,  and also is suffering with cancer.  Never complains or says anything negative what so ever.  I believe down deep he envies her,  but has never said so. 

She does see him as just "not understandable"  what wrong with him?  I just don't get him mama is about all she says.  But also admits if she has much to do with him,  calls him just a jerk.  I have explained the disorder to the degree I understand it,  but as we know,  how do you really understand this irrational behavior.  That is so destructive  to themselves as well as others.  Sorry, must get some work done,    will write more later.  Love you ladies,  and hope we can find some answers together.

[vivekananda]

MammaMia, everything you said makes sense. It is all that and it is more. The thing is there is no simple answer and no simple situations. And then each of our kids is different too.

It doesn't surprise me that your ds doesn't like to be touched sometimes. When their 'nerves' are stretched to breaking point, a gentle touch can seem like an assault, trying to break through their defences. They are desperately trying to hold it all together for themselves, to keep control, it seems to me. When everything is threatening to implode on you all the time, it is no wonder that they can think only about themselves. Their emotions can be so volatile.

angeldust, I think that's true too, the strategies they adopt to avoid rejection. Difficulty with relationships is the core of BPD, isn't it?

That your ds does have a r/s with your dd shows us the power of boundaries. Your dh has insisted on a respectful r/s between your children, and it seems has consistently enforced it. So you ds complies. It is a timely reminder of the value of good boundaries, well done.

All this just reinforces with me the importance of trying to improve our relationship with our kids. Nothing more. I can't change the situation, I can only change myself. I can't make my dd get treatment for her BPD, I can only work on myself to improve my relationship with her. And really, that's all I could cope with myself, I think.

Lots of best wishes,

Vivek    

[angeldust1]

Yes Vivek ,  it is my EX. HUSBAND!. Please not to be confused with my husband  now.   He would never allow him to hurt her or her children,  and I am grateful. However he saw his father consistently disrespect me,  discredit me,  scream profanity at me,  for even disciplining either of my children.  Perhaps this may play into the disrespect for me that he has.

My husband now, just tries hard to support me in anyway he can and has done more than the average step parents should do. He is kind thoughtful and loving,  but is very non confrontational,  and just lets things go as status quo.

[vivekananda]

oops, sorry. Please forgive me.

Our dh's can be such a source of strength to us. And when they are not there for us, it can be so hard (as it must have been with your ex).

Viv