Does pwBPD numb Our Core Wound or Rip Off the Scab OR BOTH? (was the love we fee

[ucmeicu2]

in a previous thread ("the love we feel, what is it?", i read some great stuff but it was past 90 days so i'm starting a new thread.

The reality is if we stayed in these relationships a significant amount of time - we overlooked logic and chose to believe the words that were said because that FELT better.  It FELT better (more intense) because it was simply a numbing agent on our core wounds.

SB-this really resonated with me.

it FELT better, but that didn't necessarily mean it WAS better than anything else. It not only numbed the core wound-it permitted us to function as if, albeit temporarily, we had NO core wound to begin with... . For me, that was crucial. It allowed me a greater, and perhaps false, sense of freedom than I had felt in other intimate r/s. I FELT I was able to be more My Authentic Self-and be accepted that way- than previously, and that was a relief.

and that resonates with me, as well, and really makes a lot of sense.  but OTOH i've seen many many posts here talking about how the pwBPD rips the scabs off our core trauma/childhood traumas.   i saw this in a quote by diotima (author not noted)

"In many ways our BPD ex's are a summation/intense abbreviation of our core wounds/childhood trauma/abandonment & neglect pain. They rip off the improperly healed (repressed) scabs that were left over from our childhoods and THIS is why these relationships leave us feeling so RAW."

Absolutely. My ex embodied the whole shebang--from the best to the worst, which is why if he had been more conscious and willing to face his demons and me mine together our r/s could have been very healing. "

i'm suspecting it was when i was painted white i felt like i had no core trauma to begin with and then when i was being painted black there was the tremendous pain (or not even villainized, just could be that she was isolating from the world, or not returning my phone calls pronto).

i guess it's only natural to get somewhat [completely!] addicted to that feeling of an absence of core trauma.  i guess that is what it was about our pwBPD that made us feel whole.

and, secondly, i also felt that if me and my xBPDgf could just work on these issues together, all the core trauma and attachment issues, that we could have had such a strong r/s and been so happy together.  i told her on several occasions i felt as tho we were a gift to each other from the universe b/c we each had what the other needed, b/c we had lessons to teach each other, b/c we could facilitate healing synergistically if we did it together.  i knew at that point in time that it was true from an astrological staNPDoint and now that i've been reading at this site i feel pretty confident that it's also true from a BPD r/s staNPDoint.  a gift we may have squandered.

hope this rambling makes sense to someone as it feels like a   moment for me,

icu2

[musicfan42]

and, secondly, i also felt that if me and my xBPDgf could just work on these issues together, all the core trauma and attachment issues, that we could have had such a strong r/s and been so happy together.  i told her on several occasions i felt as tho we were a gift to each other from the universe b/c we each had what the other needed, b/c we had lessons to teach each other, b/c we could facilitate healing synergistically if we did it together.  i knew at that point in time that it was true from an astrological staNPDoint and now that i've been reading at this site i feel pretty confident that it's also true from a BPD r/s staNPDoint.  a gift we may have squandered.

I've highlighted part of the above comment there because it's just an example of magical/wishful thinking... "if only this had happened, then things would be perfect and I would be so happy". I''m not trying to be harsh but I see a lot of  in what you've said above.

My BPD ex had this idea that we could work on our issues together however I knew from doing therapy that it was a non-starter. I used to want boyfriends to be a father figure to me  however I've had to work through that issue and realize that they can only ever be a boyfriend to me, not a father figure. I still feel a sense of sorrow about this but perhaps that's okay... it's hard accepting that things aren't exactly the way you would like them to be.

Likewise, I sensed that my BPD ex was trying to cast me into the role of mother figure. He had an uncaring mother and I could see that he had a lot of emptiness stemming from that loss. I could empathize with that sense of loss however I realized that I couldn't fill his emptiness any more than he could fill mine. I knew that he couldn't be a father figure to me so logically, I couldn't be a mother figure to him. I felt sad for him that he didn't have a good mother however I realized that he needed to really engage in therapy and deal with that loss there.

In an ideal world, I would have had an amazing father growing up etc however things aren't ideal and I have to be willing to make the most of things in my life now... to play the cards that I've been dealt with. As I said before, I still feel a sense of sadness and loss about this. I don't think that I have to be happy about it necessarily... acceptance does not mean approval.

I do feel a sense of relief though since I accepted that a boyfriend couldn't be a father figure... my expectations are more realistic now and I'm more likely to get some of my emotional needs met whereas before, my emotional neediness put some men off... . maybe scared the healthier men off?  I realize that emotional support isn't an all-or-nothing thing... that it's a spectrum and that I have to be prepared to help myself too... that I can't just expect someone else to do it all for me.

I actually read this therapist's blog where he said that we can make progress in therapy and develop healthier parts but that we're probably never 100% healed... that it's impossible to turn the clock back and undo all the damage and have an ideal childhood. He said that he was dealing with a client who had schizoid tendencies I think... basically he was emotionally distant. He worked with this client to the extent that he'd be able to have relationships with other people... that the client had improved to the point where he had a strong liking for other people but not love. The therapist said that the client had undergone too much damage to ever truly love someone but that his life had still improved immeasurably compared with before. I really appreciated that type of honesty because it really reflected my experience of being in therapy and of working on myself. I'm a much more stable person now than before I started working on myself however I can still see that I bear some scars from the past and that's okay. I accept it now. The 12 steps have a slogan called "progress not perfection" and I think that definitely applies here.

[ucmeicu2]

and, secondly, i also felt that if me and my xBPDgf could just work on these issues together, all the core trauma and attachment issues, that we could have had such a strong r/s and been so happy together.  i told her on several occasions i felt as tho we were a gift to each other from the universe b/c we each had what the other needed, b/c we had lessons to teach each other, b/c we could facilitate healing synergistically if we did it together.  i knew at that point in time that it was true from an astrological staNPDoint and now that i've been reading at this site i feel pretty confident that it's also true from a BPD r/s staNPDoint.  a gift we may have squandered.

I've highlighted part of the above comment there because it's just an example of magical/wishful thinking... "if only this had happened, then things would be perfect and I would be so happy". I''m not trying to be harsh but I see a lot of  in what you've said above.

hi, thanks for your input.  i can see where someone might interpret what i said as magical/wishful thinking.  i'm open to that possibility, and perhaps i'm in denial too? 

do you think astrology falls under that category? i believe there are forces at work that we can't see.  take gravity for example.     seriously, true astrology (not the "newspaper horoscope" type) can be amazingly spot on, and it was for me and my xBPDgf ~ exact opposites on the astrological wheel and our charts actually said what i said above, that we could learn a lot from each other and be deliriously happy.  or we could destroy each other.  that was way before we had problems/was looking for answers, so i wasn't biased!

have you read the book "how to break your addiction to a person"?  my T recommended it some time ago and it's where i first learned abt attachment issues.  but you may be surprised it says these r/s are sometimes terrific matches.  it really depends on whether there is reciprocity in meeting each other's needs.  from reading here, it seems that many r/s w/pwBPD there is little to no reciprocity, but my xBPDgf had a lot of self-awareness and there was *at times* much reciprocity.

so no i really can't agree (today, anyways) that what i said is a    b/c there truly WAS much room for growth and healing and helping in our r/s.  the biggest obstacle?  her alcoholism.  until that got out of the way ~ which it never did while we were together but now she's in prison i assume she's sober ~ i KNEW that a really accurate clinical diagnosis couldn't be made... . alc/drug use/abuse can present clinical symptoms of many mental illnesses... .

but to bring it back to me?  that was her side of the street and this is my side of the street.  i am working on accepting that she might not ever recover from alcoholism or BPD/other co-morbid stuff at play.  and it's up to me to delve into    MY part in our r/s, MY sickness, MY enabling, MY neediness to facilitate MY healing.  so far it's been a long painful journey.

i think this is my first post in inventory (had originally posted this in detaching/leaving but a mod moved it to inventory.  anyhoo i hope i followed the guidelines of this board... .   i may be a little confused.   

icu2

[seeking balance]

i also felt that if me and my xBPDgf could just work on these issues together, all the core trauma and attachment issues, that we could have had such a strong r/s and been so happy together.  i told her on several occasions i felt as tho we were a gift to each other from the universe b/c we each had what the other needed, b/c we had lessons to teach each other, b/c we could facilitate healing synergistically if we did it together.  i knew at that point in time that it was true from an astrological staNPDoint and now that i've been reading at this site i feel pretty confident that it's also true from a BPD r/s staNPDoint.  a gift we may have squandered.

This theory is the basis of Harville Hendrix work actually.  My ex and I even read and did the work book of "getting the love you want".  Since she was a phd sociologist, she was very good at the theory part.

Basic premise is we seek a partner to heal our childhood wounds.

So, my mom's BPD traits and ex's mom NPD traits - well, we were a match made in dysfunctional heaven.  The biggest difference between the 2 of us is that I actively changed my approach, accepted it might take a while to work through and focused on doing my part... . my ex used the skills she knew - alcohol and cheating and blaming me.

From this, I have been forced to look at my mom and accept that it will never be the TV version relationship, grieve, let go and let go expectations.  Sad, but healthier for me.

So, about you - denial serves a purpose to cope at times... . making that list of everything in denial about is a sobering reality... . but worth it to stop repeating patterns.

Kudos for coming to this board!   

[Rubies]

A BPD numbs our core wounds in the same manner whacking your thumb with a hammer numbs a toothache.   The BPDs in my life are not only scab pickers to keep the wounds fresh, they will also plunge the knife over and over to keep you bleeding.

They seem to be very adept at knowing every weakness and vulnerability a person has and exploiting them.

[ucmeicu2]

A BPD numbs our core wounds in the same manner whacking your thumb with a hammer numbs a toothache.   The BPDs in my life are not only scab pickers to keep the wounds fresh, they will also plunge the knife over and over to keep you bleeding... . They seem to be very adept at knowing every weakness and vulnerability a person has and exploiting them.

rubies, are you sure they're BPD?  sounds more like anti-social, sociopaths, sadists or something of that nature.     my experience w/BPD is that the pain the Non feels is not usually done maliciously or purposefully in that regard. 

didn't you experience any of what gina louise (among others) said, above?:

(<It not only numbed the core wound-it permitted us to function as if, albeit temporarily, we had NO core wound to begin with... . For me, that was crucial. It allowed me a greater, and perhaps false, sense of freedom than I had felt in other intimate r/s. I FELT I was able to be more My Authentic Self-and be accepted that way- than previously, and that was a relief.>.

that feeling i had was definitely not the same as hammer to thumb numbs toothache.  tooth still hurts!  the feeling it gave me was of being whole, and carefree.  and d*mnit, i miss it!   :'(     seriously, i'm not (yet able to feel that on my own except in very fleeting moments.

icu2

[musicfan42]

do you think astrology falls under that category?

I don't believe in astrology however if it works for you, then fair enough-that's all that matters really.

have you read the book "how to break your addiction to a person"?  my T recommended it some time ago and it's where i first learned abt attachment issues.  but you may be surprised it says these r/s are sometimes terrific matches.  it really depends on whether there is reciprocity in meeting each other's needs.  from reading here, it seems that many r/s w/pwBPD there is little to no reciprocity, but my xBPDgf had a lot of self-awareness and there was *at times* much reciprocity.

I haven't read that book, no. Is it worth reading?

I definitely would be surprised that it says that these relationships are sometimes terrific matches. That hasn't been my experience so far.

so no i really can't agree (today, anyways) that what i said is a    b/c there truly WAS much room for growth and healing and helping in our r/s.  the biggest obstacle?  her alcoholism.  until that got out of the way ~ which it never did while we were together but now she's in prison i assume she's sober ~ i KNEW that a really accurate clinical diagnosis couldn't be made... . alc/drug use/abuse can present clinical symptoms of many mental illnesses... .

You don't have to agree with me-it's nice to have a discussion here where each person gets to say how he/she feels. I think that a person has to be sober/clean for at least one year before a diagnosis of a personality disorder and/or other mental illnesses can be made.

but to bring it back to me?  that was her side of the street and this is my side of the street.  i am working on accepting that she might not ever recover from alcoholism or BPD/other co-morbid stuff at play.  and it's up to me to delve into    MY part in our r/s, MY sickness, MY enabling, MY neediness to facilitate MY healing.  so far it's been a long painful journey.

I agree with you here.

i think this is my first post in inventory (had originally posted this in detaching/leaving but a mod moved it to inventory.  anyhoo i hope i followed the guidelines of this board... .   i may be a little confused.   

No, you did just fine

[talithacumi]

" ... . SB-this really resonated with me. it FELT better, but that didn't necessarily mean it WAS better than anything else. It not only numbed the core wound-it permitted us to function as if, albeit temporarily, we had NO core wound to begin with... . For me, that was crucial. It allowed me a greater, and perhaps false, sense of freedom than I had felt in other intimate r/s. I FELT I was able to be more My Authentic Self-and be accepted that way- than previously, and that was a relief."

Exactly! I DID feel free/safe enough to be more my authentic self with my exupwBPD than anyone I'd ever met. In no other relationship was so much of my authentic self revealed, invested, and seemingly accepted, celebrated, adored, appreciated, and loved. Which is one of the reasons I think BEING so suddenly and completely rejected/abandoned by him in the end totally devastated me the way it did.

So, yeah - FIRST numbed the core wound (or made me forget it existed anyway) THEN ripped off the scab, took a knife to it, and poured in a little rubbing alcohol and salt for good measure.

[ucmeicu2]

i also felt that if me and my xBPDgf could just work on these issues together, all the core trauma and attachment issues, that we could have had such a strong r/s and been so happy together.  i told her on several occasions i felt as tho we were a gift to each other from the universe b/c we each had what the other needed, b/c we had lessons to teach each other, b/c we could facilitate healing synergistically if we did it together.  

This theory is the basis of Harville Hendrix work actually.  My ex and I even read and did the work book of "getting the love you want".  Since she was a phd sociologist, she was very good at the theory part.

Basic premise is we seek a partner to heal our childhood wounds.

ah ha, i knew it!  somehow... . instinctively.  how awesome is that? i am so gonna buy that book and workbook.  found an audio excerpt  www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrXyLVTF7ng and love the idea of holing up in a cabin for 7 days, like a retreat.  but your r/s ended anyways... . how much would you say doing the book helped the r/s?  and you individually, it gave you knowledge to use on your own?

thanks for the info and encouraging words, SB!

icu2

[ucmeicu2]

Exactly! I DID feel free/safe enough to be more my authentic self with my exupwBPD than anyone I'd ever met. In no other relationship was so much of my authentic self revealed, invested, and seemingly accepted, celebrated, adored, appreciated, and loved. Which is one of the reasons I think BEING so suddenly and completely rejected/abandoned by him in the end totally devastated me the way it did.

talithacumi, thank you for sharing that ~ i could not have written it better myself.  this site is amazing and the more i read of others' experiences the more it validates my experience with my xBPDgf and gives me deeper understanding of what was going on AND how to heal.  so, again thank you and thank everyone! 

icu2

[MaybeSo]

Hendrix's Imago Therapy does theorize that our Imago match has the best potential for mutual healing. An Imago match is likely when you are in a very challenging, intense, love relationship... . you are both triggering similar core wounds and therefore have the potential to do much healing together.

As for the book about breaking an addiction to someone, I have not read it but I will presume its referring to a similar or same theory.

I would be surprised if either theory specifically states a r/s with a pwBPD is a likely candidate for relationship healing.

Many of us carry wounds that are similar to borderline features, like some core abandonment wounds, for example. But, that is not the same as being personality disordered.

Everything is on a continuum, someone on the low end of the spectrum might be able to work through issues with professional help inside a relationship. But, I don't think it's a good bet to try to turn a really personality disordered individual into a imago match for a healing partnership. Also, if addictions are in play, that has to get sorted out before you get any traction on advanced intimacy or relationship skills.

An Imago match is not really suppose to be thought of as building a r/s with a significantly disordered, or seriously mentally ill person. I just don't see that working out.

[ucmeicu2]

do you think astrology falls under that category?

I don't believe in astrology however if it works for you, then fair enough-that's all that matters really.

so you were saying that astrology is magical/wishful thinking?  thats what it sounded like.  i'm happy to agree to disagree. 

have you read the book "how to break your addiction to a person"?  my T recommended it some time ago and it's where i first learned abt attachment issues.  but you may be surprised it says these r/s are sometimes terrific matches.  it really depends on whether there is reciprocity in meeting each other's needs.  from reading here, it seems that many r/s w/pwBPD there is little to no reciprocity, but my xBPDgf had a lot of self-awareness and there was *at times* much reciprocity.

I haven't read that book, no. Is it worth reading?

well i found it very informative and helpful.  YMMV of course.   it explains attachment issues, how the addiction forms, how to break free, how to avoid it again, etc.[/quote]

I definitely would be surprised that it says that these relationships are sometimes terrific matches. That hasn't been my experience so far.

sorry if i wasn't clear ~ plz reread what i wrote.  to clarify, i think it's safe to say that all BPDs are rooted in attachment disorder but not all people with attachment disorders are BPD.  so when i said the book said this or that about "these r/s", i meant the latter not the former.

so no i really can't agree (today, anyways) that what i said is a    b/c there truly WAS much room for growth and healing and helping in our r/s.  the biggest obstacle?  her alcoholism.  until that got out of the way ~ which it never did while we were together but now she's in prison i assume she's sober ~ i KNEW that a really accurate clinical diagnosis couldn't be made... . alc/drug use/abuse can present clinical symptoms of many mental illnesses... .

You don't have to agree with me-it's nice to have a discussion here where each person gets to say how he/she feels. I think that a person has to be sober/clean for at least one year before a diagnosis of a personality disorder and/or other mental illnesses can be made.

you're right, that is so nice ~ i really appreciate this opportunity. 

and yeah i've also heard the 1 yr time frame bantied abt.  AND that is why i've done the NC for 6-7 months and had the hope that in a few more months it would be nice to break NC and re-assess ~ see what changes, if any, have occurred/are on-going with/in my xBPDgf in her recovery... .   maybe a friendship would be possible... . maybe more, who knows what the future holds.  i create it with every thought and action.   

i think this is my first post in inventory (had originally posted this in detaching/leaving but a mod moved it to inventory.  anyhoo i hope i followed the guidelines of this board... .   i may be a little confused.   

No, you did just fine

thank you, i appreciate that.

icu2

[ucmeicu2]

if addictions are in play, that has to get sorted out before you get any traction on advanced intimacy or relationship skills.

YES!  i had discussed that with my ex and she was in full understanding and agreement.  she knew "us" was a hopeless cause as long as she was drinking, hence going to alc detox twice, albeit unsuccessfully.

and, really, BPD aside?  active drug/alc/sex addictions are a deal breaker (well, at least theoretically <shrug> all on their own for me anyways.  i had set a boundary:  bottle or me, but not both.  i wasn't all that skilled in enforcing that boundary, but i kept trying.   

An Imago match is not really suppose to be thought of as building a r/s with a significantly disordered, or seriously mentally ill person. I just don't see that working out.

well it would be just 1 piece of the puzzle?  don't forget, there can be recovery from BPD but yeah i see your point. 

icu2

[MaybeSo]

Interesting Hemingway quote; he has alwsys struck me as a person with a lot of narcissistic wounding.

[ucmeicu2]

Interesting Hemingway quote; he has always struck me as a person with a lot of narcissistic wounding.

it pretty much sums up the situation with an BPD ex, eh?  it has it all:  fear, loathing (just not las vegas, hehe), recycling, destruction, addiction to a person, etc etc ~ seriously how can so much detail be conveyed in 5 lines? 

yeah, poor hemingway must've had some serious wounding... .hardcore alcoholic that committed suicide with a shotgun.   

personally i'm hoping for a better outcome.   

and it finally seems possible since i found BPDfam dot com

icu2

[seeking balance]

i also felt that if me and my xBPDgf could just work on these issues together, all the core trauma and attachment issues, that we could have had such a strong r/s and been so happy together.  i told her on several occasions i felt as tho we were a gift to each other from the universe b/c we each had what the other needed, b/c we had lessons to teach each other, b/c we could facilitate healing synergistically if we did it together.  

This theory is the basis of Harville Hendrix work actually.  My ex and I even read and did the work book of "getting the love you want".  Since she was a phd sociologist, she was very good at the theory part.

Basic premise is we seek a partner to heal our childhood wounds.

ah ha, i knew it!  somehow... . instinctively.  how awesome is that? i am so gonna buy that book and workbook.  found an audio excerpt  www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrXyLVTF7ng and love the idea of holing up in a cabin for 7 days, like a retreat.  but your r/s ended anyways... . how much would you say doing the book helped the r/s?  and you individually, it gave you knowledge to use on your own?

thanks for the info and encouraging words, SB!

icu2

I am going to strongly suggest NOT using Imago/Hendrix work with a disordered partner... .it will not work to do anything but give a disordered person new tools to use against YOUR core wounds.

This is not a therapy for the light at heart, it is for deep core work.  There is no way a PD can handle this kind of work... .if you are looking for a book to use with your PD to make things better - go with High Conflict Couple & DBT skills.

What we have to realize is that we must heal our own core wounds without a partner to trigger or shield those emotions as we heal.  It is up to us to heal with a trusted T, but a job done inside and alone.

[MaybeSo]

Do you want to ruin me? Yes. Good, that's what I want to.

So Hemingway desires his own ruin. There's some insight there. His first wife, I believe, was quite stable and perhaps too boring. So then he started an affair with his wife's friend, left her for that woman. Then divorced again to be with Gelhorn, another exciting, hard drinking woman. He was drawn to the flame and sought different dramatic women over and over again. Poor Hemingway? Well, he is an interesting study, and perhaps a cautionary tale for some , but I don't feel sorry for Hemingway. He created every bit of it.

As we all do.

Folks with narcisstic woundings tend to find each other, in men it can look more NPDish, in women it looks more BPDish sometimes, but those high octane relationships are always hard on both people, but both are choosing it for their own reasons. That's why doing some imago relating with your SELF first is probably more important than finding an imago match with other.

[ucmeicu2]

I am going to strongly suggest NOT using Imago/Hendrix work with a disordered partner... .it will not work to do anything but give a disordered person new tools to use against YOUR core wounds... .This is not a therapy for the light at heart, it is for deep core work.  There is no way a PD can handle this kind of work... .if you are looking for a book to use with your PD to make things better - go with High Conflict Couple & DBT skills... .What we have to realize is that we must heal our own core wounds without a partner to trigger or shield those emotions as we heal.  It is up to us to heal with a trusted T, but a job done inside and alone.

ok thanx for the heads up.  i'll consult my T.  btw, you seem very knowledgeable abt this ~ are you a T?  

i'm actually buying it for me and my DH as we work towards healing ourselves and our marriage.  i'm NC from my xBPDgf.  

icu2