A Thousand Deaths

[UmbrellaBoy]

One of the great lines from Shakespeare says, "A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once."

One of the great paradoxes I saw in my borderline ex is that was absolute terrified of losing himself. I could not imagine him committing to therapy, or to anything, for fear that he would lose himself. Specifically, I now believe, that the borderline's inability to construct a coherent autobiographical narrative, to sustain continuity of selfhood and project oneself successfully into the future... .meant that he was terrified of the idea of changing deliberately. He was desperately trying to maintain the status quo, even if it was miserable, because if he changed, then "he" no longer existed, because he didn't know how to create continuity in selfhood, and so imagining himself as a different person, say, a year from now... .terrified him, because it would mean, effectively, that "he" (his present self, the only self he knows) would be dead, replaced by "that other guy." Of course, all of us might feel a bit awkward imagining ourselves years down the line, without seeing the intervening stages. It's like that Desperate Housewives season where suddenly all the characters we knew were 5 years older. Imagine a genie giving you a vision of yourself in five years time, and you're with someone you haven't even met yet, at a job you never imagined, maybe joined a new religion... .it happens in life, but there would something confusing and disorienting about seeing it or imagining it in the present. BUT, most of us are not paralyzed by that thought, that awkwardness or dissonance, from moving forward, because we are still able to connect "future self" to "present self" and understand an underlying continuity of selfhood between the two, and so we can pursue growth and change in a normal fashion, we know we just have to go with the flow, and the evolution of ourselves will make sense in its own time.

I believe that borderlines are so resistant to change because any deliberate change means imagining a future self who is different from their present self, and since they have trouble establishing a continuity between the two in terms of self-projection into the future... .this thought is terrifying because it means literally the death of the self they currently know. They can't make that "leap of faith" deliberately into the future.

But of course, even Borderlines grow and change. Heck, they change more than many of us because of how erratic they are! They have trouble with deliberate change and dread the thought... .but then undergo all sorts of random spontaneous changes that they allow to happen to them passively (because they're too afraid to take the step in an aware self-owning fashion).

But I realized: with no continuity, this means that the poor BPD sufferer really does "die a thousand deaths" in their life, because they are a different self from week-to-week, month-to-month (sometimes day-to-day or hour-to-hour), their perpetual "present" is one of perpetual death because each new self is a new self, something that terrifies them when they imagine it deliberately (and they do all they can to avoid it)... .but then it happens anyway. They become another disjointed fragment in a lifelong chain of disconnected present moments... .

[DragoN]

"A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once."

Once is enough.

But I realized: with no continuity, this means that the poor BPD sufferer really does "die a thousand deaths" in their life, because they are a different self from week-to-week, month-to-month (sometimes day-to-day or hour-to-hour), their perpetual "present" is one of perpetual death because each new self is a new self, something that terrifies them when they imagine it deliberately (and they do all they can to avoid it)... .but then it happens anyway. They become another disjointed fragment in a lifelong chain of disconnected present moments...

What a self made tragedy that is. Empathy on my side is in short supply. They can get therapy, and focus and learn to do other. They Choose not to do so. As such, it's not my problem. I am not interested in being the emotional care taker of a grown adult. That's his job, I have my own to worry about.

[Ironmanrises]

One of the great lines from Shakespeare says, "A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once."

One of the great paradoxes I saw in my borderline ex is that was absolute terrified of losing himself. I could not imagine him committing to therapy, or to anything, for fear that he would lose himself. Specifically, I now believe, that the borderline's inability to construct a coherent autobiographical narrative, to sustain continuity of selfhood and project oneself successfully into the future... .meant that he was terrified of the idea of changing deliberately. He was desperately trying to maintain the status quo, even if it was miserable, because if he changed, then "he" no longer existed, because he didn't know how to create continuity in selfhood, and so imagining himself as a different person, say, a year from now... .terrified him, because it would mean, effectively, that "he" (his present self, the only self he knows) would be dead, replaced by "that other guy." Of course, all of us might feel a bit awkward imagining ourselves years down the line, without seeing the intervening stages. It's like that Desperate Housewives season where suddenly all the characters we knew were 5 years older. Imagine a genie giving you a vision of yourself in five years time, and you're with someone you haven't even met yet, at a job you never imagined, maybe joined a new religion... .it happens in life, but there would something confusing and disorienting about seeing it or imagining it in the present. BUT, most of us are not paralyzed by that thought, that awkwardness or dissonance, from moving forward, because we are still able to connect "future self" to "present self" and understand an underlying continuity of selfhood between the two, and so we can pursue growth and change in a normal fashion, we know we just have to go with the flow, and the evolution of ourselves will make sense in its own time.

I believe that borderlines are so resistant to change because any deliberate change means imagining a future self who is different from their present self, and since they have trouble establishing a continuity between the two in terms of self-projection into the future... .this thought is terrifying because it means literally the death of the self they currently know. They can't make that "leap of faith" deliberately into the future.

But of course, even Borderlines grow and change. Heck, they change more than many of us because of how erratic they are! They have trouble with deliberate change and dread the thought... .but then undergo all sorts of random spontaneous changes that they allow to happen to them passively (because they're too afraid to take the step in an aware self-owning fashion).

But I realized: with no continuity, this means that the poor BPD sufferer really does "die a thousand deaths" in their life, because they are a different self from week-to-week, month-to-month (sometimes day-to-day or hour-to-hour), their perpetual "present" is one of perpetual death because each new self is a new self, something that terrifies them when they imagine it deliberately (and they do all they can to avoid it)... .but then it happens anyway. They become another disjointed fragment in a lifelong chain of disconnected present moments... .

In bold.

A striking... .

And powerful... .

Visual.

Spot on Umbrella.

[DragoN]

Crying shame or not? Boo hoo,  but they do it to themselves. They are Not unaware. Quite the opposite in many cases, but refuse to Do anything about it. In a sense they become professional victims and then they merrily run along dragging the next unsuspecting into their garbage and creating more victims. Really unpleasant.

When they have no use for you or cannot drag you into their crazy world with empathy for the poor demented BPD, then what? Discard. Suggest to them that they may be responsible for themselves? Bad Idea. They will rage or go silent. Accountability? It's an alien concept.

[patientandclear]

UmbrellaBoy, this is the second post in the last few days by you that had really added to my understanding of what people wBPD are up against (the other was the one about rationalizing explanations -- people's ability to make the case for what they believe they've decided regardless of the facts).

I really think you are right about this.  One of the most haunting things about my exwBPD is his puzzlement about what goes on with his relationships.  He is 51.  He has been doing the same exact thing with many, many, many women for many, many, many years.  Periodically he cracks through to asking some important questions about what the heck is happening.  Why can't he stick with anyone.  He goes to therapists (different therapist every time).  Recently, he shared that he realized he might have an attachment disorder.

But then, he announced, he decided there's nothing wrong.  Actually, it's totally cool to have a series of brief, passionate relationships.  Even though two months ago he very solemnly told me that he would not find it OK to be deeply in love & then have that end.

?

The lengths he is willing to go to not make fundamental changes are breathtaking.  He just is NOT willing to add 1 plus 1 if it means he has to change who he is.  Fear of being made to change, fear of being controlled & losing himself, fear of not being allowed to be himself, is his overwhelming driving force.  He will gnaw his leg off to get out of the trap of being made to change.

Whenever I come close to these issues -- make arguments about how it is possible to maintain relationships, it may be possible to learn skills that allow one to make it through the bad feelings that do arise in relationships -- he ices me out. He does NOT want to hear such things.  He wants to believe that all is well.  Everything is as it should be.  He can be who he is, do what he does, and not worry about it, and definitely, NOT CHANGE.

[UmbrellaBoy]

Yes patientandclear, that sort of thing is very familiar to me.

I remember my ex and I had the following conversation (I found it again on facebook) once about his ambivalence about his sexuality and relationships, a few months before we broke up, which I now see as hugely related to his BPD identity and instability issues:

UmbrellaBoy: My friend just recommended this book, ":)enial" by Jonathan Rauch

BPDex: denial of what?

UmbrellaBoy: sexuality I assume,

BPDex: so it's called ":)enial"?

UmbrellaBoy: yes, that's the book she recommended

BPDex: I just looked up a review, a summary rather. The author says (regarding his realization that he needed to be authentic to his orientation): "love to me would have meant love for a man." This is the thing where I think I am so confused: I have no difficulty loving women. Like, I just don't have that kind of dilemma. It's only a purely erotic problem. But then I can never be with the men I most desire erotically anyway, as they are almost by-definition not mentally compatible with me. It's all a phantasm... .

UmbrellaBoy: hm, yeah, you gotta get over that :P

BPDex: But I don't think I have an emotional love for men that is stronger than for women

UmbrellaBoy: Hm. Yeah, you've always said that

BPDex: so, like... .

UmbrellaBoy: But then, you've always seemed to have this internalized homophobia surrounding that too. So I don't know how much is just a "lack" and how much is a sort of denial.

BPDex: I just don't have these experiences other gay men do, of falling in love with their best friend in highschool, ect.

UmbrellaBoy: Hm. Are you sure you would have had those experiences as a straight either? Maybe your problem is with love and relationships generally, not just with gay.

BPDex: yeah, I dunno. I never felt THAT sort of longing for men.

UmbrellaBoy: On the other hand, I remember in your short story, describing this almost embarrassment at the thought of loving a man (loving more embarrassing than lusting apparently) even though, it's pretty clear, you did at least love [name of his previous ex from before he got into the love triangle with me and his most recent ex] in that way. But, with all this shame... .

BPDex: yeah

UmbrellaBoy: which somehow didn't apply to lust as much, or didn't matter beccause lust is supposed to be shameful or something like that?

BPDex: well, he was kind of pretty

UmbrellaBoy: haha, well, either way "that kind of feeling" still comes across in the story, so it's odd to claim you've never felt it for a man.

BPDex: Oh, well in that sense, I was in love with [name of best girl friend of his whom he once stopped talking to for two years, and whose return caused the break-up with the pretty ex] once too

UmbrellaBoy: I don't know what that means. Were you attracted to her... .sexually?

BPDex: yeah

UmbrellaBoy: hm. Well, that's quite a shift then. But yeah, I'm not sure about this narrative. I'm not sure how much this compartmentalization you insist exists inside yourself, re: men and love versus lust, is real, or how much is, in fact, a sort of denial or compartmentalization that you want to be true because it helps you somehow (avoiding the threat of intimacy and commitment), or due to some sort of shame etc etc

BPDex: I don't know. I was never sure about saying I was gay.

UmbrellaBoy:

BPDex: I was never confident in the rainbow bracelet!

UmbrellaBoy: you're never sure about any commitment or identity question

BPDex: But... .the narrative was there, in society, in the culture... .so it was convenient to adopt, for a time at least.

UmbrellaBoy: I'm just not sure what you describe can "really" exist. Like, yeah, people are complicated, but... .people are either gay or straight or bi. Are you saying you think you're bi? Or some weird "homosexual but bi-romantic" thing? I've heard people claim that sort of combination.

BPDex: No, no. Because a bi person would fall in love with members of both sex, not have this... .compartmentalization, like you say. Besides I know my attractions are to men now, but they're just never coherent!

UmbrellaBoy: howso? Like the love versus lust thing?

BPDex: well, people are more certain of what they want than I am, even just in general

UmbrellaBoy: if you're gay, and you are, then that's a whole package

BPDex: I dunno, I could see reasonably being with a woman just as much as with a man. But not sexually.

UmbrellaBoy: I think adopting a coherent sexual orientation identity is sort of a whole-package. I don't know of a species of creature that is erotically attracted to men, but doesn't romantically love the men he's sexually attracted to, but doesn't really fall for women anymore either, but did once, but only when it was also still attracted to them erotically, but thinks he could still love them without sexual attraction, but also feels that way about men! It's too convoluted.

BPDex: it was almost easier to be gay

UmbrellaBoy: Well sure, because it is a coherent narrative, it provides a coherent vision. But that's what we all do! Sexual orientation is a construct, but it's a very useful one for organizing our own lives and desires, providing a framework or narrative in which we can make sense of them.

BPDex: I mean, to me, choosing to be forever with one man seems about equal to being with one woman forever. Inasmuch as both would involve the same degree of compromise. One isn't really more satisfying than the other... .

UmbrellaBoy: Well, one fits a lot better with your life narrative so far! no offense, but people would think you were CRAZY (rightly so) to try at this point.

BPDex: right, it's almost too late to turn!

UmbrellaBoy: To say "Guess what! I wasn't gay!" Unstable!

BPDex: yeah, but that's a depressing thought. what if I wind up, on this question, those gay 50 year olds that FINALLY come out after there's no hope of it meaning much in the way of excitement?

UmbrellaBoy: , what, you're going to finally come out as straight or bi? *rollseyes*

BPDex: no :P

UmbrellaBoy: If you have ambivalency issues with identity and commitment and relationships and attachment etc etc... .that's broader than any question of this or that orientation label. If you think spending your life with a man or a woman are equal options, because you would not be sexually attracted to either (because the only people you lust for are guys you could never imagine spending your life with)... .then that's not a recipe for any sort of fulfillment! But that sounds like a deeper issue then... .

BPDex: the erotic "house" collapsed, I think, that I was in

UmbrellaBoy: But in itself it doesn't mean you're not gay or can't love men. And it wasn't just the erotic house, because you've also had all this angst over spirituality, family, to some degree career

BPDex: like you said, there's not "essential gay," it's a construct

UmbrellaBoy: But a useful construct for assembling a coherent well-adjusted identity! Being fickle or a bit unstable, and "not being gay" are two different things!

BPDex: one can be an irresolvable co-ordinate on the scale, a colour that they can't name at Home Depot; you know how colours get so ambiguous, like, it's... .smoker's teeth white,

UmbrellaBoy: Normal people choose the "best fit" identity and then try to make sense of things within that framework. You start to have to say no to certain thoughts and yes to others. Most gay men have some thoughts or feelings for women (I bet lots of straight men have a few for other males!) But in the process of reconciling myself to a gay narrative/identity I nurtured the thoughts for men as being part of my predominant pattern, because I couldn't have done otherwise, the other thoughts were too outnumbered to ever hope that by putting effort into them or to be able to make a coherent narrative from them, so you dismiss them as a fluke and don't worry about the outliers.

BPDex: yeah, maybe

UmbrellaBoy: I've always found your sort of insistence that your sexuality is near exclusively physical, and not emotional/romantic, a sort of "mannish" posturing. Guy's will lust but to love is weak or girlish or whatever stereotype

BPDex: I don't think loving is girlish. I just never love what I lust for, or lust what I love... .

UmbrellaBoy: Again, given your history, I'm not sure if that's completely true, or just a convenient dilemma for you. Lots of people have a "two ladder" problem; the "madonna/whore" complex where the women who make good wives and mothers are perceived as not the hottest type, or where women go for bad boys until they're ready to settle down at least, and nice guys are friendzoned or pegged as "like a brother" or whatever, because the bad boys have the sexual chemistry for them. The point is such compartmentalization of lust and love is dysfunctional, but a lot learn their lesson eventually, the hard way. The truth is, with some effort, there should be a way to convert between the two, lust and love, for most people.

BPDex: , see love and sex are a mis-wiring

UmbrellaBoy: I dunno. I see cultures with arranged marriages. The people come to love each other from proximity.

BPDex: true, those are not individualized cultures though

UmbrellaBoy: and then the love leads to a sort of sexual attraction. maybe not red hot lust, but a more tender sort that expresses the intimacy and affection

BPDex: But those cultures probably have secret avenues for infidelity

UmbrellaBoy: oh, of course, such cultures have the idea of mistresses, to serve a lust that "good breeding" wives can't among the high society. But not every man has them, only if they're the base sort who need "raw lust." It's obviously not the only type of sex, and plenty of people with more limited options are perfectly satisfied with "affection sex" etc. And, conversely, many men do have romantic feelings for their mistresses too, they aren't purely sexual, and many do desire to marry them if it weren't for social pressure (ie, look at Charles and Camilla).

BPDex: well, this is where this "no monagamy" stuff comes from that's starting to become more mainstream.

UmbrellaBoy: yeah

BPDex: the idea that everyone by willful choice, with no external societal pressure, will find their one satisfying beloved

UmbrellaBoy: I'm not sure that's what realistic people think. It's compromise and rational choice for the sake of a functional stable coherent life.

BPDex: if the external pressure is removed the result is... .internal pressure that has to be applied

UmbrellaBoy: And so what? What's so wrong with that? We all need to apply certain internal pressures to ourselves to keep ourselves disciplined and functional! It was never just external social pressure keeping society unfragmented. Jealousy exists, as an evolutionary fact, and people who love someone (not even the limerent "in love" sort of love, but even just the intimate affectionate sort) don't want to hurt someone they love by cheating and provoking feelings of jealous or betrayal. So yes, we apply internal "pressure," we make a choice to remain faithful on a deeper level even though our surface emotions might wax and wane from day to day, even though this or that temptation might briefly catch our eye. We know we have to stick with our commitments, not be distressed by the fact that there will always be alternatives.

BPDex: but in the past some stigma was attached to infidelity that made it easier to stay faithful, and still today even (though others would have it removed through consensual compromise)

UmbrellaBoy: Most people, if they find out someone has cheated in the past will immediately disqualify them as a partner

BPDex: true

UmbrellaBoy: unless there was some real conversion or transformation in between

BPDex: but the move against monogamy is to legitimate cheating by making it an approved channel

UmbrellaBoy: Yeah, and that is a fringe movement among a generation that has serious attachment/commitment issues

BPDex: for now, who knows what the future of relationships will look like. Glee will tell us!

UmbrellaBoy: . Well, just, please... .don't wallow in these strange angsts and ambivalences.

BPDex: I'm not wallowing. But I also need to be... .honest. Many narratives could oppress me, including the ones that would free me

UmbrellaBoy: I don't believe you have to be so hopelessly fragmented as you say, and all this talk of narratives oppressing sounds rather paranoid

BPDex: who knows what I might be! I have to ask

UmbrellaBoy: maybe, or maybe you don't. Maybe you question things too much instead of just moving forward, picking a path, sticking with it until given extraordinary reason not to. You know there are real thought and feeling exercises that have been tried and tested by therapists and such for knitting things together more holistically

BPDex: , psh! I'm whole enough

UmbrellaBoy: If you say so

BPDex: I do. I'll be fine. I should go to sleep, it's rather late

It's like he had all this clarity, this angst, admitted it was all a confusion and a problem... .and then shrugged it off, said he was whole enough, said he'd be fine, and said the rumination about it (with no plan for how to fix it or move beyond it or deal with it!) was not wallowing! I wish I had known about BPD then, because I see so much of it in this conversation! It's like I already half knew, and like he already half knows... .

[HarmKrakow]

Crying shame or not? Boo hoo,  but they do it to themselves. They are Not unaware. Quite the opposite in many cases, but refuse to Do anything about it. In a sense they become professional victims and then they merrily run along dragging the next unsuspecting into their garbage and creating more victims. Really unpleasant.

When they have no use for you or cannot drag you into their crazy world with empathy for the poor demented BPD, then what? Discard. Suggest to them that they may be responsible for themselves? Bad Idea. They will rage or go silent. Accountability? It's an alien concept.

You seem to think they do it on purpose. They don't.

You think they want to discard you? They don't, the NON enables the BPD effectively into their discarding, meaning we are responsible for them discarding us. They might be aware, but they have no control over it. If they would have control over it, they wouldn't hurt you.

They don't play the victim role because they want to, it's because it's wired in their heads to do so after a NON enables her. They feel threatened and abandoned due to triggers a NON is displaying and that can be tracked back to the past of a BPDer. I don't blame a BPDer for hurting someone.  It's merely what they are programmed to do.

Accountability? Of course not, but you can't accept accountability of a 12 year old emotional child.

[HarmKrakow]

Very interesting read umbrella boy!

[UmbrellaBoy]

I think when BPDs do flee from us or suddenly change radically... .it is almost a form of self-destruction.

For nons, change and growth would be healthy normal things. For someone with BPD, though, for whom a different "future self" means death of the "present self" because there is no continuity or connection... .most fear it, avoid it like the plague. Until something snaps. And then they can often change radically and suddenly (until, you know, they decide to change back). But in either case that change is a sort of "suicide" for them, isn't it? It is a choice they make not out of some healthy desire to grow, but to self-destruct (because, without continuity, change is self-destruction).

My guy was never overtly suicidal. I now understand why many BPDs are, and why the sorts of shifts my guy occasionally made were in some ways psychologically equivalent. Both are self-destruction, but are born of the terrible reality of hating oneself but not thinking that ones current reality can be escaped except through ending the present self (as opposed to changing the self). I guess it's really proof that if you can't make a leap of faith, you wind up just throwing yourself off the cliff anyway (and yet how different the spirit of the two things is!)

[HarmKrakow]

I think when BPDs do flee from us or suddenly change radically... .it is almost a form of self-destruction

Them leaving is more a sense of a very ancient sense of self-preservation.

For nons, change and growth would be healthy normal things. For someone with BPD, though, for whom a different "future self" means death of the "present self" because there is no continuity or connection... .most fear it, avoid it like the plague. Until something snaps. And then they can often change radically and suddenly (until, you know, they decide to change back). But in either case that change is a sort of "suicide" for them, isn't it? It is a choice they make not out of some healthy desire to grow, but to self-destruct (because, without continuity, change is self-destruction).

My guy was never overtly suicidal. I now understand why many BPDs are, and why the sorts of shifts my guy occasionally made were in some ways psychologically equivalent. Both are self-destruction, but are born of the terrible reality of hating oneself but not thinking that ones current reality can be escaped except through ending the present self (as opposed to changing the self). I guess it's really proof that if you can't make a leap of faith, you wind up just throwing yourself off the cliff anyway (and yet how different the spirit of the two things is!)

The topic of suicide is a very interesting one. I never had much thoughts given to suicide before my ex, but after my ex I am sorry to admit that i've been close a few times. Even so close that I was once about to do it, but called my psychologist in tears and told him in some alien bla bla language that I realllly wasn't feeling good. I already wrote my 'goodbye' letter to everyone, even had bpdfamily in there as I've made one really good contact on this board which I now also have contact with outside bpdfamily.com. I still sometimes struggle with the sense of suicide, not as severe as I used to, but I truly believed my ex was all I wanted. And there I had no brothers/sisters/family, i had no base to touch ground on. When we broke up, that was months before a planned marriage ...

I had everything, then I didn't have anything anymore and I found myself locked in a country I moved into FOR HER, and as of this day am still trying to fight my way out of it...

[UmbrellaBoy]

I think it depends why they are leaving. There are engulfment-fear dumpings, but also "pre-emptive abandonment" dumpings, and probably a third type of dumping related to shifts in other areas of identity that necessitates, for them, a social "blank slate." I think you're right about the first two types, but I think the third "identity instability" sort of dumping is probably self-destructive, as they are already, at that point, trying to abandon themselves. I'm not sure "self abandonment" is considered much in BPD discussions, but maybe it should be. It's destroying the present self and trying to "start fresh"... .of course, if they do this once, they usually do it again and again, because there really is no "starting fresh," they just repeat the same patterns.

[maxen]

Crying shame or not? Boo hoo,  but they do it to themselves. They are Not unaware. Quite the opposite in many cases, but refuse to Do anything about it. In a sense they become professional victims and then they merrily run along dragging the next unsuspecting into their garbage and creating more victims. Really unpleasant.

When they have no use for you or cannot drag you into their crazy world with empathy for the poor demented BPD, then what? Discard. Suggest to them that they may be responsible for themselves? Bad Idea. They will rage or go silent. Accountability? It's an alien concept.

You seem to think they do it on purpose. They don't.

while i understand that, i share incence's frustration. again and again i said to my wife 'dear, when you do X it hurts me' and again and again she'd do it, sometimes so soon after my plaint that it was clearly deliberate. i'd react with frustration which was completely counterproductive b/c i didn't realize it was BPD. i though she was trying to replicate the reactionary male-female relationship her parents have (her mother is juvenile too). but whatever the reason, when you're told you're hurting someone and it wouldn't take much to stop it and you just won't stop it and you're a person of adult years and a high IQ type who can see what's going on it's very hard to say it's not on purpose.

Accountability? Of course not, but you can't accept accountability of a 12 year old emotional child.

i'm amazed that the same phrases come up in referring to BPDers. i used to say to myself that my wife was 44 going on 14, that she was a professional victim, etc.

[HarmKrakow]

Crying shame or not? Boo hoo,  but they do it to themselves. They are Not unaware. Quite the opposite in many cases, but refuse to Do anything about it. In a sense they become professional victims and then they merrily run along dragging the next unsuspecting into their garbage and creating more victims. Really unpleasant.

When they have no use for you or cannot drag you into their crazy world with empathy for the poor demented BPD, then what? Discard. Suggest to them that they may be responsible for themselves? Bad Idea. They will rage or go silent. Accountability? It's an alien concept.

You seem to think they do it on purpose. They don't.

while i understand that, i share incence's frustration. again and again i said to my wife 'dear, when you do X it hurts me' and again and again she'd do it, sometimes so soon after my plaint that it was clearly deliberate. i'd react with frustration which was completely counterproductive b/c i didn't realize it was BPD. i though she was trying to replicate the reactionary male-female relationship her parents have (her mother is juvenile too). but whatever the reason, when you're told you're hurting someone and it wouldn't take much to stop it and you just won't stop it and you're a person of adult years and a high IQ type who can see what's going on it's very hard to say it's not on purpose.

Accountability? Of course not, but you can't accept accountability of a 12 year old emotional child.

i'm amazed that the same phrases come up in referring to BPDers. i used to say to myself that my wife was 44 going on 14, that she was a professional victim, etc.

Of course I agree mate!

For me personally, my ex and me both graduated from university cum laude, first class honors. However social wise, our 'EQ' wasn't to great :P

[musicfan42]

Wow-your conversation with your BPD ex was fascinating UmbrellaBoy! I really like your writing style so sometimes I just read your posts to see how you'll express yourself as opposed to any interest I have in talking about BPD. . I wanted to ask whether you're a writer however I suspect that you are already so I don't want to be too nosy/intrusive.

I can actually kind of relate to your BPD ex with regard to sexual identity. I've been attracted to men and women yet I don't want to put any type of label on it. It's easier for me to say that I'm straight-easier to fit in... .maybe your BPD ex feels that he fits into society better as a gay man? Just a thought. I have a need to fit into society. I noticed that your BPD ex mentioned external social pressures a lot in that conversation. I've felt like a chameleon in the past-that I had no idea of who I was. I don't feel this as strongly now but it would be a lie to say it's completely gone away. It never goes away but therapy has helped.

I sometimes get this feeling of crawling in my own skin... of being uncomfortable with who I am... that I would rather be anyone else only myself. I've tried to explain this feeling to other people but they didn't understand it. I think borderlines experience this feeling frequently-this sense that if only they can be someone else, THEN they will be happy... then their lives will be perfect... only it doesn't work like that... you can't run away from yourself. But I certainly make a good stab at it. I've tried so many times to be different from who I really am but my real identity always come back to haunt me/bite me in the butt basically! I have an eating disorder and I think that's linked to my identity issues-if I look different, then I will be a different person. Image is important to me. I know how to portray myself in a certain light if I want to impress people. I try not to do this anymore (therapy!) and to stick to my own values but it's easier just to be a chameleon... it's harder to stick to my values... to my own goals... to speak up and say "I don't like this" or "I'm not happy with that".

My BPD ex said that we were soul mates early into the relationship. I spoke up and said "no we're not-we don't know each other very well yet and besides, I don't believe in the concept of soul mates". BUT it would have been much easier not to speak up... to just agree with him. I think it's hard to be truly authentic in relationships. I've felt judged a lot of the time when I dared raise my voice above the parapet and actually voice my true opinions on any issue. It's easier just to follow the crowd/herd.

But yes-back to the sexual identity thing. I don't want to be labelled "bisexual" because bisexual women are seen as being flaky. I was attracted to this woman a while back but as soon as I said I was bi, a red flag went up over her head... .almost like "hmm she seems cool but she just said she was bi... hmm I wonder?" Then I don't want to be labelled "lesbian" because I am attracted to men too so I don't belong in that category. Then I don't really feel like I belong in the straight community either because lots of my female friends want to talk about their relationships with men all the time and I find it nauseating. I'm attracted to men too but even when I'm dating men, I feel wary of them... wondering if/when they'll hurt me. So I don't feel comfortable with women talking about their boyfriends in glowing terms. I don't want to hear how happy someone is in a relationship because I think "I always have trust issues!" And then I don't want to hear women talk about their boyfriends in hateful tones because I think "god just move on and get a grip". I just said that I'm comfortable with emotional vulnerability in another post but that's when it comes to friendships. With romantic relationships, it's another ballgame really.

For me... it's just this constant sense of not belonging... of not feeling that I fit in anywhere. This feeling of alienation/isolation despite being well-liked by other people. My thoughts have no basis in reality. I figured that out through CBT (Cognitive Behavior Therapy)... learned how to question the accuracy of my thoughts.

So again, I can kind of relate to your BPD ex's feelings... this feeling that I'm just roaming around the place... not sure of what I'm really doing... trying to appear normal but not feeling normal... .looking at confident people-feeling envious... .I change my mind a lot. I'm aware that I can be kind of flaky but it's like I make myself stick to things... to say "look stay put" but really, I'm unbelievably restless... never happy no matter where I am... no matter who I'm with or what I'm doing. I've adopted slightly more conservative views of everything-I find it easier to fit in that way. I want to be respected-to have an image as this really wise person and that's definitely something I try to cultivate. It's probably a bit fake really but I feel that I have to aim for something. I don't feel wise... I don't feel conservative. I think that I just adopted slightly more conservative views to stop myself from being as flighty as before and so far, it's actually worked. Maybe there is a method in my madness...