Force them to face their behaviours/BPD mechanisms... spit out everything.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

It's been useful sometimes?For you here or for your pwBPD?

I know she probably gonna deny and distort the facts... .but since some days (after she wrote me a week ago) i'm such in a big bitterness mixed at sadness too... .i'm tryng to keep control to don't call/write her and tell her EVERYTHING that i think and that i feel... .about her,her behaviours,about all the "things" i discovered after we broke up (especially the lies about this last summer that is what is pushing me the most),her triangolation (ironic,thanks to that person who actually is a friend of mine i discovered and understood many things too and she doesn't know at all that i have this knowledge),about her recently "emotional attack" to my family and to me to look for "affections" and justifications after she declared her "independence" from people just right a couple of  months ago,about what happened while we were together too,about idealization-devalutation,manipulation... .cause we NEVER really talked about her BPD sides (cause i'm pretty sure no one ever did with her)... .and now i would be ready to... .cause i can't stand to be left in this way and pass like the "bad" one too,the one who didn't understood or acted in wrong way and made her love go away... .when she left me in september i was so destroyed by stress,the sense of guilty and the idea to lose her that i was just able to breathe and cry (what a big man) but now i feel i would need my personal "declaration" too and not just go away like a guilty dog like if she's right... .i feel that i should spit out everything and maybe feel better after... .not with angerness and recognizing my mistakes too... .but with convinction... .the convinction i wasn't able to have during our relation... .that wasn't me the one who had to look down at my feet begging pardon and feeling guilty for so long... .that i'm not scared anymore (pain?already got... .lose her?already happened)... .and ask her some questions too... .useless maybe but i would have to anyway... .explain,analyse,ask,talk once for all like we never done... .cause i feel i just have been passive for all this time and i'm not sure to keep everything inside me would help me,i'm scared to get poisoned by all this on the long term and i have to throw it out for once... .tell her all the things i never did... .and after this,ask her to disappear from my life,go in strictly NC and take back my mind and my life... .for my heart i'll need much more time.

[Nicco]

It's been useful sometimes?For you here or for your pwBPD?

I know she probably gonna deny and distort the facts... .but since some days (after she wrote me a week ago) i'm such in a big bitterness mixed at sadness too... .i'm tryng to keep control to don't call/write her and tell her EVERYTHING that i think and that i feel... .about her,her behaviours,about all the "things" i discovered after we broke up (especially the lies about this last summer that is what is pushing me the most),her triangolation (ironic,thanks to that person who actually is a friend of mine i discovered and understood many things too and she doesn't know at all that i have this knowledge),about her recently "emotional attack" to my family and to me to look for "affections" and justifications after she declared her "independence" from people just right a couple of  months ago,about what happened while we were together too,about idealization-devalutation,manipulation... .cause we NEVER really talked about her BPD sides (cause i'm pretty sure no one ever did with her)... .and now i would be ready to... .cause i can't stand to be left in this way and pass like the "bad" one too,the one who didn't understood or acted in wrong way and made her love go away... .when she left me in september i was so destroyed by stress,the sense of guilty and the idea to lose her that i was just able to breathe and cry (what a big man) but now i feel i would need my personal "declaration" too and not just go away like a guilty dog like if she's right... .i feel that i should spit out everything and maybe feel better after... .not with angerness and recognizing my mistakes too... .but with convinction... .the convinction i wasn't able to have during our relation... .that wasn't me the one who had to look down at my feet begging pardon and feeling guilty for so long... .that i'm not scared anymore (pain?already got... .lose her?already happened)... .and ask her some questions too... .useless maybe but i would have to anyway... .explain,analyse,ask,talk once for all like we never done... .cause i feel i just have been passive for all this time and i'm not sure to keep everything inside me would help me,i'm scared to get poisoned by all this on the long term and i have to throw it out for once... .tell her all the things i never did... .and after this,ask her to disappear from my life,go in strictly NC and take back my mind and my life... .for my heart i'll need much more time.

[Ironmanrises]

The desired result you seek you will not be able to get from your ex. If she even responds to you, her answers will shift as her distorted image of you changes. So an answer she may give you on x day may/very likely not be the same answer you would get at a future date with the same question. This in turn will cause you to wonder if you are going crazy. I know you want her to just tell you everything, I get that. We all want the same. But that is where logic ends with them. And madness begins. Hang in there.

[redkong]

Nicco,

I understand your desire to have this type of conversation, I often have had the same desire.   Unfortunately, what you're looking for in terms of a response from your pwBPD isn't likely to happen.  This is one of the hardest things I've been trying to understand about BPD.  You can present facts and realities and try to discuss them, but for a pwBPD, their feelings are their facts.  Maybe to help you process and purge your feelings, you could write everything in a letter you don't send, or in a journal, or here?

[RecycledNoMore]

I tried that with my uBPDx, he laughed at me, suggested I was the one with BPD, dismissed me and all my relevant facts, I left feeling like a jackass, he could not be reasoned with during the r/ s, or after, he does not " get it", the only closure im going to get, is what I make for myself.

Be prepared for this type of scenario nicco.

[Turkish]

 doesn't matter.  as someone said in another recent thread, " the disorder always wins."  Mine even admitted last week that she was "sick"  but her medicating ( with another shallow r/s)  continues.  in one ear,  out the other.  we are fighting the thing inside them,  talking to " it"  most of the time,  not them.  it's a  freaking  tragedy,  but it's reality.

[Nearlybroken]

I have tried this numerous times... .tried to tell him how I was feeling, the effect of his behaviour on me.I asked him to explain so I could understand... .so we could move forward.Together.At no point did he ever see things from my point of view, at no point did he have any empathy.All he did was twist things and frequently invent senarios in order to portray me as the "bad one".I lost count of the times, when faced with honest and rational explanation, he would scream " You spoiled it all".I fully understand your need... .the same need drove me.But for me,the calmer I was and the more I presented the truth, the more distortion I got in return.One of the last conversations I had with him he accused me of "projection, more projection and then more projection".I managed to counter this argument.His response "Well you undertake reverse projection then which is worse".Flatly refused to explain what he meant by this.But now I am coming to the view that his dismissive silence is better for me than the crap he comes out with when I try and engage him in sensible conversation.Awful that trying to make your view heard results in so much frustration and heartache... .especially when you are advancing the truth.But that is how it is for me.

[tnbh]

I understand your want for an explanation for closure,but it'll never come. No matter how many late nights you spend talking or how you try to figure things out. Mostly we,re left with ourselves and on our own to make sense of it all.

In time you will understand more than you do now.

You'll be going thru your day to day and all of a sudden you get what happened in a particular fight. All at once you'll know what was a lie and when/why they lied. That's how it is for me anyways. It's like a light turns on in my head. I then say to myself "yeah that was a manipulation for her to go cheat".

      One thing I KNOW turned out to my favor is life. A year from now I'll have a new gf a new job home and car. I'll have all the things she had a hand in me losing and I'll have a life. While she will still be wallowing in her own self misery and living inside her own chaotic mind storm that is her existence.

    Sorry for the kind of hijack. Keep your head up

[Nicco]

Thanks for replies.

I really can't stand it anyway... .many of you have way more experience than me about this matter and i'll listen you... .but it's crazy.

I can't stand the fact that there's no way to "communicate" with them... .how it's possible they don't "see" reality?

If we said/done something that "triggered" their mind in past and made them lovely there must be a way to trigger again something in their mind.

I never been such disappointed with her... .since a couple of days i'm feeling a big bitterness that i never felt before for her... .maybe i'm just realizing she really won't come back (actually she seems just interested in the one she triangulated with and i'm sure she's very disappointed he doesn't care at all and becomed a friend of mine too) and i have violent feelings for her... .i would tell her everything in a bad way probably... .to stop with her behaviours and to let us ALL in peace instead to continue look for his attention that should be pretty clear she will never have (i really would scream to her something like "ehy for god sake what the hell you want?he doesn't care about you what the hell are you still doing?you wanted your life and independence?you got it stop with this ridiculous behaviour and let everyone in peace !" ... .to show her how much is contradictory her behaviour compared to what she says... .i don't know... .this fact that a high functioning person is completely BLIND to all her contradictions makes me crazy.

[Ironmanrises]

Thanks for replies.

this fact that a high functioning person is completely BLIND to all her contradictions makes me crazy.

She appears to be blind to all her contradictions. My exUBPDgf is also high functioning. If she were to not show you that appearance, she would have to self reflect on her actions.

[Nicco]

Thanks for replies.

this fact that a high functioning person is completely BLIND to all her contradictions makes me crazy.

She appears to be blind to all her contradictions. My exUBPDgf is also high functioning. If she were to not show you that appearance, she would have to self reflect on her actions.

Is what i thought often to tell her too... .that she doesn't have to be scared to reflect on her actions/behaviours... .scared by the real "her self"... .that even if now i trigger these feelings inside her and she can't stand close to me anymore for that,to don't be worried cause i would just support her and love her like she is and help her to get out from her unhealty life... .if she only would give me the chance to do that and find some good feelings for me once more... .damn... .there must be someone able to do this... .even if i won't be THAT one

[Ironmanrises]

Thanks for replies.

this fact that a high functioning person is completely BLIND to all her contradictions makes me crazy.

She appears to be blind to all her contradictions. My exUBPDgf is also high functioning. If she were to not show you that appearance, she would have to self reflect on her actions.

Is what i thought often to tell her too... .that she doesn't have to be scared to reflect on her actions/behaviours... .scared by the real "her self"... .that even if now i trigger these feelings inside her and she can't stand close to me anymore for that,to don't be worried cause i would just support her and love her like she is and help her to get out from her unhealty life... .if she only would give me the chance to do that and find some good feelings for me once more... .damn... .there must be someone able to do this... .even if i won't be THAT one

Even if this were to happen and she returns to you(successful re-engagement), those very feelings will trigger her again. And she will view you through that distorted lens and ultimately, hurt you once more. It was no different with mine. Even me knowing about her disorder and trying to be understanding/sympathetic/listening to her, made no difference. She hurt me far worse the second time. It is what caused me to finally start posting on this forum(I found this forum after round 1). Those feelings you want her to find for you again will not last, friend. It is the awful contradiction that we face in being in a relationship with a pwBPD. And awful barely even describes the actual hell of it.

[santa]

You can't reason with these people. It's useless to even try. You're only wasting your breath.

Nothing is ever their fault ever and any facts you may present will be twisted by them into a completely fictitious event that they swear happened just the way they say it did.

It's not like she's going to have some breakthrough. If it'll make you feel better, go ahead and do it, but don't expect any kind of progress from it. Knowing how these people are, I can assure you it will blow up in your face.

[Nicco]

You have been pretty clear... .i understood it's a kind of infinite cruel vicious circle.

It's something more than sad.

I'll try to deal with and see what happens.

Thanks.

[Turkish]

You can't reason with these people. It's useless to even try. You're only wasting your breath.

Nothing is ever their fault ever and any facts you may present will be twisted by them into a completely fictitious event that they swear happened just the way they say it did.

It's not like she's going to have some breakthrough. If it'll make you feel better, go ahead and do it, but don't expect any kind of progress from it. Knowing how these people are, I can assure you it will blow up in your face.

To add to this: people are who they are, disordered or not. My T had to remind me of this as well, when I was still at the point over a month ago of "I can make this work, if x, y, z happens on her side." To the credit of my X, she told me, "what if this happens again?" To me, that meant "yes," which is when I called it done.

The thing that separates we nons from them is that we can realize this, and work to change without changing the core of who we are. At their core there is pain, and ultimately, emptiness. Nothing anyone on the outside does can change that. Whatever we do just feeds the black hole of emptiness.

[Hazelrah]

It's something more than sad.

It really is, Nicco.  There is no denying this--it's why we're all here in the first place. 

It's an uphill battle, and we need to keep working as hard as we can to push through it.  It can be the hardest thing many of us ever have to do, but I believe it can be done.  I've had some major setbacks recently after feeling pretty good for a while... .and I'm five months out.  But I still have faith I can continue to get through this.  It's a cliche, but take it day by day, hour by hour, or minute by minute if you have to.  And stick with us to help you get through it.

[mywifecrazy]

doesn't matter.  as someone said in another recent thread, " the disorder always wins."  Mine even admitted last week that she was "sick"  but her medicating ( with another shallow r/s)  continues.  in one ear,  out the other.  we are fighting the thing inside them,  talking to " it"  most of the time,  not them.  it's a  freaking  tragedy,  but it's reality.

You are so right. It's so true!  I think that's what helps me MOVE ON and TRY not to hate my uBPDxw. She did a lot of things (multiple affairs, lies about me abusing her) to hurt me in our 18yr marriage. I've come to the realization that there was NOTHING I did to cause her behavior and NOTHING I can do to cure or RESCUE her from this. It is so SAD, I really do feel sorry for her to have to live like that. The only thing I can do for her now is pray that she gets the help she needs but I doubt that will ever happen... .Again so sad for her!

[Turkish]

doesn't matter.  as someone said in another recent thread, " the disorder always wins."  Mine even admitted last week that she was "sick"  but her medicating ( with another shallow r/s)  continues.  in one ear,  out the other.  we are fighting the thing inside them,  talking to " it"  most of the time,  not them.  it's a  freaking  tragedy,  but it's reality.

You are so right. It's so true!  I think that's what helps me MOVE ON and TRY not to hate my uBPDxw.

I try not to hate mine... .but it's hard. We are human beings who have been severely wronged and hurt by them. A few of us lean more towards the fact, stepping away from the BPD aspect of this, that what they did or are doing is morally wrong. My T was pleased the other day when for the first time in two months I actually demonstrated anger that what my X did and is doing is wrong. We will move past this someday... .I feel for you since your r/s was so much longer. 18 years is a lifetime.

[mywifecrazy]

You are so right. It's so true!  I think that's what helps me MOVE ON and TRY not to hate my uBPDxw. [/quote]
I try not to hate mine... .but it's hard. We are human beings who have been severely wronged and hurt by them. A few of us lean more towards the fact, stepping away from the BPD aspect of this, that what they did or are doing is morally wrong. My T was pleased the other day when for the first time in two months I actually demonstrated anger that what my X did and is doing is wrong. We will move past this someday... .I feel for you since your r/s was so much longer. 18 years is a lifetime. [/quote]
Trust me I have a LONG way to go before I can truly let go of all the hate I have for what she's done. Like you said 18 yrs IS a lifetime. But like you or someone said earlier in this thread. When we are dealing with pwBPD we are dealing with the "IT" inside of them and that "IT" is a sickness that will never go away. When I look at my xwBPD not as a logical person but as someone who is a mentally/emotionally sick person I tend to feel sorry for her instead of hating her. In reality I can heal and move forward and be happy again. I'm afraid my xwBPD will never be HEALED of the "IT that is inside of her. I remember her trying to explain how empty she feels inside like she has no feeling of who she is Is. It was truly sad to hear her explain it. I can't even begin to comprehend what that internal emptiness must feel like. I DON'T THINK I WOULD EVER WANT TO KNOW EITHER!  All I do know is that when I do have sympathy for her as a broken/sick person I am able to let go of the hate and helps my healing process... .Again easier said than done for me at times!

God Bless you on your road to recovery!

[mywifecrazy]

doesn't matter.  as someone said in another recent thread, " the disorder always wins."  Mine even admitted last week that she was "sick"  but her medicating ( with another shallow r/s)  continues.  in one ear,  out the other.  we are fighting the thing inside them,  talking to " it"  most of the time,  not them.  it's a  freaking  tragedy,  but it's reality.

You are so right. It's so true!  I think that's what helps me MOVE ON and TRY not to hate my uBPDxw.

I try not to hate mine... .but it's hard. We are human beings who have been severely wronged and hurt by them. A few of us lean more towards the fact, stepping away from the BPD aspect of this, that what they did or are doing is morally wrong. My T was pleased the other day when for the first time in two months I actually demonstrated anger that what my X did and is doing is wrong. We will move past this someday... .I feel for you since your r/s was so much longer. 18 years is a lifetime.

Trust me I have a LONG way to go before I can truly let go of all the hate I have for what she's done. Like you said 18 yrs IS a lifetime. But like you or someone said earlier in this thread. When we are dealing with pwBPD we are dealing with the "IT" inside of them and that "IT" is a sickness that will never go away. When I look at my xwBPD not as a logical person but as someone who is a mentally/emotionally sick person I tend to feel sorry for her instead of hating her. In reality I can heal and move forward and be happy again. I'm afraid my xwBPD will never be HEALED of the "IT that is inside of her. I remember her trying to explain how empty she feels inside like she has no feeling of who she is Is. It was truly sad to hear her explain it. I can't even begin to comprehend what that internal emptiness must feel like. I DON'T THINK I WOULD EVER WANT TO KNOW EITHER!  All I do know is that when I do have sympathy for her as a broken/sick person I am able to let go of the hate and helps my healing process... .Again easier said than done for me at times!

God Bless you on your road to recovery!

[Iwalk-Heruns]

I understand your want for an explanation for closure,but it'll never come. No matter how many late nights you spend talking or how you try to figure things out. Mostly we,re left with ourselves and on our own to make sense of it all.

In time you will understand more than you do now.

You'll be going thru your day to day and all of a sudden you get what happened in a particular fight. All at once you'll know what was a lie and when/why they lied. That's how it is for me anyways. It's like a light turns on in my head. I then say to myself "yeah that was a manipulation for her to go cheat".

      One thing I KNOW turned out to my favor is life. A year from now I'll have a new gf a new job home and car. I'll have all the things she had a hand in me losing and I'll have a life. While she will still be wallowing in her own self misery and living inside her own chaotic mind storm that is her existence.

    Sorry for the kind of hijack. Keep your head up

It's so weird you said this. I was just thinking this very thing today. I will be going about my day and all of a sudden something will just pop into my head out of nowhere.  Something random or seemingly insignificant to the naked eye from months or even a couple years ago and it will all be clear what it was about.  And yes mostly I will come to the conclusion that it had to do with a manipulation for him to go cheat. Must be the brains way of healing. Kind of like dreams.

[BuildingFromScratch]

While I think you should consider carefully if you should do this or not. You also need to do it in the proper way. You need to put zero blame onto her when you do it. They feel like victims always, because they are truly victims of this condition and of their childhood. I would point that out. And since I know my exBPDgf always felt like there was no where she could fit in, you could mention that there is a whole community of beautiful people just like her for her to relate to. Going in all judgmental and angry and trying to get them to see the ways they wronged you would do zero good.