Paranoid Wow, It's everywhere

[Depression = 72% of members]

Since the end of the RS with my uBPDgf the new reality is startling. I've realised my xw has it, one of my sisters and my mother. I can see it everywhere now. I talked about it to some people I know and 2 girls quietly admitted to me that they have those feelings. I'm not involved with them.

A guy I know slightly was in the pub and sad because of Christmas an I asked why. 3 kids, hasn't been allowed to see them for 3 months by the mother, obviously a caregiver person. When I asked about the wife they were text book BPD symptoms. He was amazed and said no one seems to understand what's happening even him. He's 5 years out  and still being manipulated.

I've been out 5 months and am dealing with my issues, looking back on my history. It all seems so obvious now. Reality is built on real and constructed experiences.

Understanding what BPD means for a RSs is shattering and healing.

[Changingman]

Since the end of the RS with my uBPDgf the new reality is startling. I've realised my xw has it, one of my sisters and my mother. I can see it everywhere now. I talked about it to some people I know and 2 girls quietly admitted to me that they have those feelings. I'm not involved with them.

A guy I know slightly was in the pub and sad because of Christmas an I asked why. 3 kids, hasn't been allowed to see them for 3 months by the mother, obviously a caregiver person. When I asked about the wife they were text book BPD symptoms. He was amazed and said no one seems to understand what's happening even him. He's 5 years out  and still being manipulated.

I've been out 5 months and am dealing with my issues, looking back on my history. It all seems so obvious now. Reality is built on real and constructed experiences.

Understanding what BPD means for a RSs is shattering and healing.

[arn131arn]

Funny,

My ex has a replacement 10 years older than us, and very successful.

My cousin works with him, and I had a "sit down" (we're Italian, get over it)  , yesterday to discuss this new guy.  My cousin divorced a year and a half ago, and he told me about his ex wife, and it was like we were telling the same EXACT story.

Pretty amazing, and scary, as well. 

He said it's tough because it's been 18 months and he still sometimes misses her.

I realized yesterday, after 14 years, this is going to be a long road.  So I packed a tent... .

[Pearl55]

It's everywhere! Especially as a woman I can recognise women borderlines after 10 min seeing them and talking to them! Their body languages, speech patterns, eye pupil accommodation,... .are very different!

[arn131arn]

It's everywhere! Especially as a woman I can recognise women borderlines after 10 min seeing them and talking to them! Their body languages, speech patterns, eye pupil accommodation,... .are very different!

Pearl, what is eye pupil accomodation?

Can you go into more on this?

Sorry, but any type of physiology interests me,

Arn

[Pearl55]

The accommodation reflex is a reflex action of the eye, in response to focusing on a near object, then looking at distant object (and vice versa), comprising coordinated changes in vergence, lens shape and pupil size (accommodation).

I've noticed that when they look at a object which they are jealouse of, for example expensive handbag or whatever their pupil sizes changes dramatically so you can see this abnormality. I've been witnessed this so many times.

[arn131arn]

The accommodation reflex is a reflex action of the eye, in response to focusing on a near object, then looking at distant object (and vice versa), comprising coordinated changes in vergence, lens shape and pupil size (accommodation).

I've noticed that when they look at a object which they are jealouse of, for example expensive handbag or whatever their pupil sizes changes dramatically so you can see this abnormality. I've been witnessed this so many times.

Holy f**k nuts!  That's amazing!  My ex triangulated with these people with 800k homes.  I saved an entire year for her engagement ring.  It was really nice; but not like the gigantors these women (friends she calls them) had on.

Used to piss my off, she would look at these rings then look at hers.  It would make me feel inadequate and ashamed that mine wasn't good enough... .

The whole time I should have been looking at this Bhit's pupils!

Damn

[fromheeltoheal]

Interesting, in that supposedly 2% of the population is borderline; that either means we're magnets for the disorder, or that number is drastically low.  More probably it's because the criteria are subjective and it's a continuum, with everyone exhibiting borderline traits in varying degrees at varying times, but those traits need to be more extreme and persistent, and exposed to the mental health industry, to warrant a diagnosis.

I say the label doesn't matter and each person is their own unique collection of traits.  Personally I'm a lot more wary of people, my naivety died as a result of my 'experience', and these days I'm meeting two kinds of people: the ones who bring me up and the ones who bring me down; my ex was definitely in the latter category, so out with her, in with the supportive ones, and quite a few people I know now don't qualify, a new mindset for me, and a welcome one.

[Changingman]

I'll keep my pupils on the pupils.

Mine couldn't look people in the eye, I never knew, I was told after we ended by numerous people who didn't know each other.

Deception!

[fromheeltoheal]

I saved an entire year for her engagement ring.  It was really nice; but not like the gigantors these women (friends she calls them) had on.

Used to piss my off, she would look at these rings then look at hers.  It would make me feel inadequate and ashamed that mine wasn't good enough... .

Yeah, and a nice girl would be proud of her man and appreciate what he does for her, and work very hard at assuring him that he's man enough and she loves him.  A shallow gold digger chases rocks.

[damage control]

The accommodation reflex is a reflex action of the eye, in response to focusing on a near object, then looking at distant object (and vice versa), comprising coordinated changes in vergence, lens shape and pupil size (accommodation).

I've noticed that when they look at a object which they are jealouse of, for example expensive handbag or whatever their pupil sizes changes dramatically so you can see this abnormality. I've been witnessed this so many times.

I don't see what one thing has to do with the other?

The first paragraph is a description of how the eye/pupil accommodates a shift in focus from near to far - the second paragraph attributes this shift to changes in mental state (eg: jealousy) ... everybody gets dilated pupils when they feel strong desire ... .so ... I am not sure what you are saying here Pearl? (sorry to be dense but I just can't follow your logic).

[heartandwhole]

Changingman,

I hear you.  I've noticed people and friends around me with traits – more than I ever imagined.  I also suspect BPD/traits in my FOO.  It's been a real eye-opener.  

I think 2% is a conservative estimate, but we have to remember that many people have traits but not the full-blown disorder.

The great thing about the resources and lessons here, is that they help in all kinds of relationships – those with BPD/traits and just regular old *difficult* situations.

[Changingman]

Interesting, in that supposedly 2% of the population is borderline; that either means we're magnets for the disorder, or that number is drastically low.  More probably it's because the criteria are subjective and it's a continuum, with everyone exhibiting borderline traits in varying degrees at varying times, but those traits need to be more extreme and persistent, and exposed to the mental health industry, to warrant a diagnosis.

I say the label doesn't matter and each person is their own unique collection of traits.  Personally I'm a lot more wary of people, my naivety died as a result of my 'experience', and these days I'm meeting two kinds of people: the ones who bring me up and the ones who bring me down; my ex was definitely in the latter category, so out with her, in with the supportive ones, and quite a few people I know now don't qualify, a new mindset for me, and a welcome one.

I understand your point,

How about this... .

We are magnets for them. We have been conditioned to allow these people in, when we should be protecting ourselves from them. Crazy flock together like birds.

If you could construct a system to attract them like netting fish?

Porn

Stripping

Acting

Fashion

Therapists

I am changing my behaviours, I've realised this has made me vulnerable to abuse, neediness, beauty, chaos. Trying to heal someone else, not me.

[fromheeltoheal]

I understand your point,

How about this... .

We are magnets for them. We have been conditioned to allow these people in, when we should be protecting ourselves from them. Crazy flock together like birds.

If you could construct a system to attract them like netting fish?

Porn

Stripping

Acting

Fashion

Therapists

I am changing my behaviours, I've realised this has made me vulnerable to abuse, neediness, beauty, chaos. Trying to heal someone else, not me.

Good awareness Changingman.  A borderline's life is a living hell, so people like me, kindhearted, caretaker people pleaser types, people who put other's needs ahead of their own, have big red targets painted on us that a borderline has radar for, because people like me can 'save' her from her pain.  And me, lonely and feeling disconnected, also looking for someone to 'save' me, was susceptible to someone fawning all that attention on me.  That mutual need to be 'saved' created the loaded bond between us, and off to the races we went, bound for dysfunction.

I like the fact that I'm a kindhearted caretaker type, it comes from the right place, but much better to save myself first, grow, heal, learn, accept and love myself, build and enforce boundaries, then let the right people in.  If I'd done that before I met her, she wouldn't have gotten very far, for damn sure.

[Pearl55]

Changing man

Do you know why she didn't look at peoples in their eyes? Because she hasn't developed mood regulations which she interpret facial expressions wrongly because she is only a 3 year old.

When they don't behave you've got to look at their eyes very deeply with serious look and then they stop. I even tried this so many times with my husband.

[Pearl55]

Damage control

This is only a general description of accommodation. I couldn't find a relative PROOF for that. All area of their brains are affected but unfortunately this disorder is not well understood. I know about strong desire and changes with pupil sizes but for those I've been witnessed are very different!

[Waifed]

I have realized that I have an aunt that is way borderline.  One of her son's has it. I have another cousin that sleeps with guys the first night, falls madly in love with them and it is over in a flash. She just can't seem to find the right guy!  She is a total love addict.

I also know a guy that I do business with. He is going thru a horrible divorce. His wife ran off with another guy. He has been a mess for a year. I talked to him and after talking and reading the literature I sent him he is pretty sure she is borderline. He was so thankful because he has been researching trying to find out what is wrong with her!

My personal trainer was also married to a diagnosed BPD. He spent time in a psych ward because of her. One coworker was married to a diagnosed borderline for 18 years. He was in and out of the VA hospital recovering from it. My brother has a friend who was married to a diagnosed borderline. He still keeps going back and fourth with her and claims he can handle it and it's just about sex.

It is everywhere. You can pick them out of dating site profiles. I can spot them in movies!  Am I scared?  :)amn right I am. I am also pretty confident that I can identify it and not get involved. Therapy has also helped. I no longer feel like I have to help everyone.

I would guess that 6% or more of the population have strong BPD characteristics.

[Pearl55]

Recognising male borderlines are much more difficult than womens! They look normal compare with women. Women borderlines are very obvious!

[Knowingishalf]

Thank you all this is a wonderful thread.  I have been noticing the same thing, outside my wife it turns out my mother is the worst of all go figure.  I also believe my brother to be leaning this way as well.  I also am terrified when I do get well enough to start dating again, I will see it when it isn't there out of paranoia.  Now tricky part is I left my wife and am now living with my parents so I have to deal with my mother every day now too.  Only good thing is I learned a lot of skills here.

[Changingman]

I have realized that I have an aunt that is way borderline.  One of her son's has it. I have another cousin that sleeps with guys the first night, falls madly in love with them and it is over in a flash. She just can't seem to find the right guy!  She is a total love addict.

I also know a guy that I do business with. He is going thru a horrible divorce. His wife ran off with another guy. He has been a mess for a year. I talked to him and after talking and reading the literature I sent him he is pretty sure she is borderline. He was so thankful because he has been researching trying to find out what is wrong with her!

My personal trainer was also married to a diagnosed BPD. He spent time in a psych ward because of her. One coworker was married to a diagnosed borderline for 18 years. He was in and out of the VA hospital recovering from it. My brother has a friend who was married to a diagnosed borderline. He still keeps going back and fourth with her and claims he can handle it and it's just about sex.

It is everywhere. You can pick them out of dating site profiles. I can spot them in movies!  Am I scared?  :)amn right I am. I am also pretty confident that I can identify it and not get involved. Therapy has also helped. I no longer feel like I have to help everyone.

I would guess that 6% or more of the population have strong BPD characteristics.

"Am I scared? Damn right I am"

Ha I love that. So true.

In and out of mental illness, I've heard this, met one who was still fried from inside a mental ward, to be honest I thought I was going to lose it but managed to pull myself to the surface and breath a little bit before I drowned. Really close.

She has a friend who introduced us and I've realised he is totally psycho to, not sure if heis BPD but his old GF who I phoned knew there was something terribly wrong with him and was left hurt and confused.

People who think they can 'handle it' are deluded.

Am I scared? Damn right I am!

[Tincup]

Ok, so how do you spot a female borderline?  Mine "seemed" quite normal at the first couple meetings... .

[Knowingishalf]

I have to say while mine seemed "normal" at the time, knowing what I know now I could spot the glaring red flags from miles away.  I look back from this future self and wish I could time travel just to kick myself for missing them.  I used to call her a rageaholic thinking it was cute... .

[Tincup]

I do remember at the end of our first date thinking that would be the only date because I didn't think things went real well.  She asked me all kinds of questions about me ex wife (she knew her) and told me all about her ex husband.  She told me that she would never get married again because she "didn't want to go through another divorce"... .when we walked out to our cars she asked me out for a second date and I said yes... .go with your gut.

[seeking balance]

Emotionally immature and BPD traits are everywhere - it is rewarded in our culture.

The book "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" written in the 80's actually predicts a BPD like culture based on how society is rewarding entitlement behavior and delaying gratification is not being taught combined with over-stimulation of media.

Ultimately, it takes TIME to learn who someone is, more than a few meetings.  Also, under stress - everyone can show some BPD traits and not make great decisions, including us.  This is why it is suggested NOT to get into a relationship when your own life is a bit unstable - ie, job insecurity, lonely/grieving, etc.

The 2% stat is Diagnosed and only a rare few are diagnosed due to the stigma, treatment and insurance.  Many are diagnosed bipolar because that is acceptable (ie - pharmaceutical-friendly).

Men and Woman can show traits differently and woman tend to go to therapy more than men, thus a higher % can have a diagnosis.  PD's in general are not limited to either sex; women do tend to have the added hormones that can make a bit of a difference too.

All-in-all:  we do the best we can with our eyes wide open

Peace,

SB

[doubleAries]

keep in mind personality disorders are spectrum disorders. And that most people will exhibit an occasional trait here or there. the difference between trait and diagnosable is how consuming the traits are, how badly they effect interpersonal relationships.

AND, are we "magnets" for them? Probably in some ways... .and THAT, friends and neighbors, is what we CAN do something about.

Here is something I'm just finally figuring out myself... .why is that the pwPD's "seem normal" at first? Is it them, or is it us? I think it's us. They don't appear "normal" to everyone. People with healthy self esteem don't think pw with PD's appear "normal" at first.

I have a more extreme example that you can extrapolate--more extreme because my childhood was more extreme: when I met my now ex, he told me he was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic with manic depression. We worked together and carpooled. I watched him closely for a while, and he "seemed normal" to me. I no longer believe he had some amazing ability to "seem normal", but that my vision was... .selective. And tuned to hone in on the sickest person around who would "need" my "help".

I have also come to see that just maybe perhaps we non's have as big a problem with intimacy as pwPD's. A different problem, but same result. It's not just that we are a magnet for them--they are a magnet for us too. Magnets work on both polarities.

Helping, rescuing, fixing and intensity are NOT the same as intimacy.

[Tincup]

DA--I totally agree with you here.  But I know I am not seeing clear enough to do much about it right now other than know you are right.  I know I miss some red flags.  Maybe I have gone after woman that seem safer to me so "I don't get hurt".  But I am just coming out of the FOG and know I am not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel yet (but I am far enough out to know it is not a train). 

[Changingman]

DA--I totally agree with you here.  But I know I am not seeing clear enough to do much about it right now other than know you are right.  I know I miss some red flags.  Maybe I have gone after woman that seem safer to me so "I don't get hurt".  But I am just coming out of the FOG and know I am not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel yet (but I am far enough out to know it is not a train). 

Just be good to yourself it will happen.

[caughtnreleased]

I've heard 6% and 2%, but that it can go as high as 15% if we start dealing with traits. The flip side which I think is reassuring though is that I recently read that 56% of adults have secure attachment tendencies. That's more than 1/2. It might freak some people out but I see it as glass half full

[doubleAries]

tincup, I don't think I'm all that clear yet myself. Starting to see things differently, which isn't the same as feeling things differently. I have a tendency to a disconnect between my dominant thoughts and mutated emotions. But I am in weekly counseling and haven't even bothered with dating (or even thinking about it) since my divorce in June.

Yeah, it's hard work, but worth it. Just have to remember that while it is all well and fine to think sometimes about "the crap that was done to me", the bigger focus has to be what I can do to change myself (instead of someone else).

I mean seriously--what kind of person marries a schizophrenic and then spends years bitter and resentful that the schizophrenic isn't capable of emotional/psychological intimacy? HAHAHA! What a goofball! I can laugh now, but it wasn't very funny at the time. It was miserable. Self imposed misery.

[Changingman]

Changing man

Do you know why she didn't look at peoples in their eyes? Because she hasn't developed mood regulations which she interpret facial expressions wrongly because she is only a 3 year old.

When they don't behave you've got to look at their eyes very deeply with serious look and then they stop. I even tried this so many times with my husband.

Thanks Pearl,

I'll try it on my mum of she ever speaks to me again.

It's funny now

[LilMissSunshine]

Emotionally imature and BPD traits are everywhere - it is rewarded in our culture.

The book "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" written in the 80's actually predicts a BPD like culture based on how society is rewarding entitlement behavior and delaying gratification is not being taught combined with over-stimulation of media.

Ultimately, it takes TIME to learn who someone is, more than a few meetings.  Also, under stress - everyone can show some BPD traits and not make great decisions, including us.  This is why it is suggested NOT to get into a relationship when your own life is a bit unstable - ie, job insecurity, lonely/grieving, etc.

The 2% stat is Diagnosed and only a rare few are diagnosed due to the stigma, treatment and insurance.  Many are diagnosed bipolar because that is acceptable (ie - pharmaceutical-friendly).

Men and Woman can show traits differently and woman tend to go to therapy more than men, thus a higher % can have a diagnosis.  PD's in general are not limited to either sex; women do tend to have the added hormones that can make a bit of a difference too.

All-in-all:  we do the best we can with our eyes wide open

Peace,

SB

Great info, great advice. Thank you