pwBPD and marriage

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Question: If BPDs are as horrible and evil and difficult as we make them out to be (and I am NOT disputing that) then why are so many successful in getting married? If they are so incorrigible, why are so many able to accomplish that?

Does that speak to: 1) extreme codependency issues vis-a-vis the "non"; 2) situational competence vis-a-vis the BPD (being able to "hide" it sufficiently well); or 3) are they not as bad as we try to believe they are?

I'm curious and any feedback would be appreciated.    

[Wanna Move On]

Question: If BPDs are as horrible and evil and difficult as we make them out to be (and I am NOT disputing that) then why are so many successful in getting married? If they are so incorrigible, why are so many able to accomplish that?

Does that speak to: 1) extreme codependency issues vis-a-vis the "non"; 2) situational competence vis-a-vis the BPD (being able to "hide" it sufficiently well); or 3) are they not as bad as we try to believe they are?

I'm curious and any feedback would be appreciated.    

[arn131arn]

Question: If BPDs are as horrible and evil and difficult as we make them out to be (and I am NOT disputing that) then why are so many successful in getting married? If they are so incorrigible, why are so many able to accomplish that?

Does that speak to: 1) extreme codependency issues vis-a-vis the "non"; 2) situational competence vis-a-vis the BPD (being able to "hide" it sufficiently well); or 3) are they not as bad as we try to believe they are?

I'm curious and any feedback would be appreciated.   

I wanted to, don't doubt that.  I was with her for 14 years, but there was always that little "something" in the back of my head telling me "No"

[Iwalk-Heruns]

I would bet that many get married fairly quickly before the mask falls off.

[love4meNOTu]

Yes, I'm afraid so. My xhwBPD pressured me to marry him the first six months I knew him. I gave in to that pressure, much to my regret today. If I had just waited one more month... I would have seen his first disregulation.

However, some on this board suggest that disregulation might not have started until the marriage... . so who knows, chicken or the egg.

L

[karma_gal]

In my case, it was a combination of I was too young, had no business getting married, totally saw red flags but overlooked them, and him being able to wear a mask through the dating phase that quickly came off once we were married -- like I noticed a difference the day after the wedding on our honeymoon.

From there, it was so hard to put my finger on what was going on.  Some of the stuff was so subtle and insidious that I didn't know what was going on.  Like, my keys would come up missing; my battery would be dead the day I had to go somewhere; the insults; the manipulations... . everything just gradually got worse and worse and worse until it got to the point where I couldn't deny what was going on any longer.  By that point, we're married for a few years, have kids, house, financial entanglements, and it's just not easy getting out of. 

I promise you it is every bit as bad, and more, than we think of... . at least vis-a-vis my marriage. 

I'm in the legal field so I love vis-a-vis but rarely see it these days  

[love4meNOTu]

My xhwBPD began his paranoia before we married, but he noticed it and tried to address it.

The sad part is that he let it overtake him after we married. He knows he has problems, but just can't go there. It's really a said way to be.

However I could not be a wife to him, he was too frightening. I had to go.

L

[karma_gal]

Mine "checks out" frequently.  When he's on overload -- as in he does something really ignorant, I confront him, his emotions are on overload at being confronted and having to explain his behavior -- he shuts down completely and either (a) stays in the house and ignores me for weeks on end or (b) takes off out the door with his clothes and goes AWOL for weeks at a time.  Then he comes back, and we do it all over again.  Sounds like fun, huh?

[arn131arn]

There is nothing wrong with that other than it is completely hited up 

[karma_gal]

There is nothing wrong with that other than it is completely hited up 

You just made me laugh out loud to the point where I spit Coke on my computer monitor  

Yep, what you said, that's exactly how I feel. 

[MrFox]

I would bet that many get married fairly quickly before the mask falls off.

I think this is a big part of it.  My ex got married last month.  We broke up in August.  Her new husband has no idea what he just got into.  I would feel bad for him had he not pursued her even though her and I where together.  She's his problem now. And, from what I have heard through the grapevine, that problem is already starting.

[Ironmanrises]

Question: If BPDs are as horrible and evil and difficult as we make them out to be (and I am NOT disputing that) then why are so many successful in getting married? If they are so incorrigible, why are so many able to accomplish that?

Does that speak to: 1) extreme codependency issues vis-a-vis the "non"; 2) situational competence vis-a-vis the BPD (being able to "hide" it sufficiently well); or 3) are they not as bad as we try to believe they are?

I'm curious and any feedback would be appreciated.   

Define successful. Does successful mean from the point when idealization starts to the point when the pwBPD gets triggered? Because in that time period, then successful would be roughly 100%. Now lets add the time period starting from trigger point and afterwards. I don't think successful would be the appropriate term here.

[happylogist]

As hard as it is for many to admit, but people who date and fall in love with BPDs have a strong narcissistic idealization of love and relationships. This is where idealization by BPDs does not ring any suspicion bells to wait a bit more, to know each other better, to look more into each other and judge on their actions and not words. We feel entitled for this love, especially when it pours at us!

Because of these fantasized idealization of love many live in a fairy tale and want to believe to these illusions as being finally the reality, the dreams come true.  The illusions of an ideal love, soulmate and such that were in our heads from the early teenager years are not illusions,  this is the reality, we think: "Look she/he is so nice, she/he loves me so much, we are so open with each other. This is what I imagined all my life!"  This is why it is so easy to get married or commit to them, even after seeing the redflags.  Moreover, at one point having extreme ups and downs also gives an opposite effect, instead of leaving it is hard to admit that the love you saw was something else and there is imbalance in giving and taking, it is the fault of our own thinking as much as their behavior, desire to believe in 10 Beliefs, not wanting to give up and letting go because it would destroy not only the relationship, but our perception of ourselves, as being lovable, giving and worthy. So then the logic goes "if I give and offer more, the person would see and realize/understand how much I love and how much he/she loves and everything will work out, because this is what we read in fairy tales "happily ever after""... . The ring, proposal and stronger 10 Beliefs  

The BPD behavior actually is  the best pick-up strategy, basically "treat them mean - keep them keen" together with "no one loved you as I",  but because it comes naturally it does not look as a manipulation of a high school cheerleader.

[musicfan42]

I think they find people to marry them because at the start, they just seem passionate. And that's really attractive to a lot of people... it's exciting, it's fun... it's not dull anyways. But then they just turn weird all of a sudden and you're like "where did that come out of?" When you're idealized by someone, it feels great... you literally are the center of their universe. But then when you're devalued, it's like you're dropped and thrown back down to earth with a thump. I think that some people want to keep recreating that initial passion; not realizing that it's just gone... that things have gone sour... that you've been devalued and that things are only going to get worse, not better.

[karma_gal]

As hard as it is for many to admit, but people who date and fall in love with BPDs have a strong narcissistic idealization of love and relationships. This is where idealization by BPDs does not ring any suspicion bells to wait a bit more, to know each other better, to look more into each other and judge on their actions and not words. We feel entitled for this love, especially when it pours at us!

Because of these fantasized idealization of love many live in a fairy tale and want to believe to these illusions as being finally the reality, the dreams come true.  The illusions of an ideal love, soulmate and such that were in our heads from the early teenager years are not illusions,  this is the reality, we think: "Look she/he is so nice, she/he loves me so much, we are so open with each other. This is what I imagined all my life!"  This is why it is so easy to get married or commit to them, even after seeing the redflags.  Moreover, at one point having extreme ups and downs also gives an opposite effect, instead of leaving it is hard to admit that the love you saw was something else and there is imbalance in giving and taking, it is the fault of our own thinking as much as their behavior, desire to believe in 10 Beliefs, not wanting to give up and letting go because it would destroy not only the relationship, but our perception of ourselves, as being lovable, giving and worthy. So then the logic goes "if I give and offer more, the person would see and realize/understand how much I love and how much he/she loves and everything will work out, because this is what we read in fairy tales "happily ever after""... . The ring, proposal and stronger 10 Beliefs  

The BPD behavior actually is  the best pick-up strategy, basically "treat them mean - keep them keen" together with "no one loved you as I",  but because it comes naturally it does not look as a manipulation of a high school cheerleader.

Happylogist:

Wow, I am going to read this again later many times but for me your assessment is dead on. Growing up with a BPD mother, I felt unworthy and unlovable my entire life. Add in the break up of my first serious relationship and in walks BPDH and it was on. Yes, it felt good to be loved - even tho now I know that isn't what it was; and after the hell I have been through I did feel a bit - ok a lot - entitled to it.

What I struggle with now is I know his love isn't real love and yet I stay. Reading this this morning has me wondering if perhaps my work in therapy is not yet through. I thought I had worked through my FOO issues, but the feeling in my gut tells me otherwise.

Then of course I need to admit that I was wrong which sucks... . because if I was wrong maybe my mom WAS right... . and I think I have avoided going there.

I am going to wait for the coffee pot to finish and get some caffeine flowing through my veins and come back to this. You spoke the absolute truth, I just don't like hearing it. Alas, I have learned that is often exactly what I need to get out of my head, into reality and shake things up.

So... . I still don't like it, but thank you a million times over for putting it out there. I needed someone to tell me like it is and you did so very gently. I appreciate that.

[Obibens]

Great points... .

This is something I have to look at in myself.  The narcissistic part of me at the time that made me believe I was good enough to 'fix' another person.  In my head, it came across as "oh, she's really good inside and just needs some love and understanding to bring it all out".   Naturally, as a high-functioning BPD/NPD, this is exactly what they portray. 

Then, after years of being told how awful I was are, that narcissistic part had been beaten into submission, and I began to see things for how they are.  Now the part to be really have to be careful of, is as I heal, to recognize that part of me and act appropriately.  That’s why it’s true what everyone here is saying – I have plenty of work to do on me as well.

[Obibens]

I also forgot to point out... . that doesn't necessarily mean I'm a narcissist, because my therapist and I have talked about this many times. She has consistently told me, you are not a narcissit, but everyone has some NPD traits, and this one happens to be one of yours and you need to recognize it.   

[karma_gal]

I also forgot to point out... . that doesn't necessarily mean I'm a narcissist, because my therapist and I have talked about this many times. She has consistently told me, you are not a narcissit, but everyone has some NPD traits, and this one happens to be one of yours and you need to recognize it.   

Lol I doubt anyone here would think you were a narcissist. As you see we are all our own blend of works in progress but the very fact that we and you are willing to look at these parts of ourselves, own them and set out to fix them pretty much guarantees we aren't DSM-IV worthy of the label of narcissist.

I remember asking my therapist the same thing a few times and like yours she assured me in that respect I was safe. It is perfectly normal to have some narcissistic traits, nearly everyone does. The people we all seem to pair up with take it to the extreme though and that is where full fledged NPD comes in. You recognize your weakness and know what to look for. You are safe

[karma_gal]

Great points... .

This is something I have to look at in myself.  The narcissistic part of me at the time that made me believe I was good enough to 'fix' another person.  In my head, it came across as "oh, she's really good inside and just needs some love and understanding to bring it all out".   Naturally, as a high-functioning BPD/NPD, this is exactly what they portray. 

Then, after years of being told how awful I was are, that narcissistic part had been beaten into submission, and I began to see things for how they are.  Now the part to be really have to be careful of, is as I heal, to recognize that part of me and act appropriately.  That’s why it’s true what everyone here is saying – I have plenty of work to do on me as well.

Thanks for posting this other element because I too am guilty of thinking this way, absolutely sure I was special enough to fix his lifetime of wounds and make it all better.

I am going to leave this thread until the coffee kicks in. This is a lot of deep stuff to take in without the benefit of a clear and functioning head.

Huge thanks to both of you for bringing these things up because for me they were exactly the things I need to think about and tackle to get unstuck.

[Obibens]

Lol I doubt anyone here would think you were a narcissist. As you see we are all our own blend of works in progress but the very fact that we and you are willing to look at these parts of ourselves, own them and set out to fix them pretty much guarantees we aren't DSM-IV worthy of the label of narcissist.

I remember asking my therapist the same thing a few times and like yours she assured me in that respect I was safe. It is perfectly normal to have some narcissistic traits, nearly everyone does. The people we all seem to pair up with take it to the extreme though and that is where full fledged NPD comes in. You recognize your weakness and know what to look for. You are safe

, thanks for the support.  I guess that's just a habit from the years and years of thinking "Is it me?"   

[karma_gal]

Lol I doubt anyone here would think you were a narcissist. As you see we are all our own blend of works in progress but the very fact that we and you are willing to look at these parts of ourselves, own them and set out to fix them pretty much guarantees we aren't DSM-IV worthy of the label of narcissist.

I remember asking my therapist the same thing a few times and like yours she assured me in that respect I was safe. It is perfectly normal to have some narcissistic traits, nearly everyone does. The people we all seem to pair up with take it to the extreme though and that is where full fledged NPD comes in. You recognize your weakness and know what to look for. You are safe

, thanks for the support.  I guess that's just a habit from the years and years of thinking "Is it me?"   

Lord do I know that! If we all had a nickel for each time we have thought "is it me?" We could have a bpdfamily meet up in the Bahamas! This stuff certainly messes with your mind.

[Monarch Butterfly]

Question: If BPDs are as horrible and evil and difficult as we make them out to be (and I am NOT disputing that) then why are so many successful in getting married?    

I dated the my high functioning uBPDh  for three years. I knew he was difficult and knew I would have to work hard at his marriage if it was to survive.  I saw red flags, but then again, I thought, who doesn't have issues. Mr perfect doesn't exist. I didn't label them as rad flags, just brightly orange, and very workable;liveable.

While dating he listened, talked, had hope for the future, felt so close... . He did propose when within 6 months, but I said no. It was too early. We kept dating for 2 more years.

I would have never dreamed that he had BPD. And he was so romantic: flowers, dates, chocolates, massages, etc. He was Mr. Romantic with a past that needed some help. I had a few fights with my parents - I thought that was all that had happened to him too. Just his fights were a little worse.

He also put up a really thick mask. I would never marry someone that wasn't my own religion - he got baptized and joined the church. He even went to seminary for 2 years. Little did I know, this was just a mask to convince me that he was what I wanted. On the other hand, the more I read about BPD, maybe he really did think he was part of my faith. Identity crisis, mirroring or something... . Anyway, he did this for every other item I had on my list of a soul mate. None of it was true.

I knew his issues were about being abused, neglected and abandoned, and in my mind, love would prevail and fix that. I would never leave him. I wouldn't abuse him nor neglect him. I thought that if he could see all that, all feel supported and loved unconditionally he could change. He has so many other qualities too... . Why look at just the bad stuff?

My only conditions were that he never hit me, cheat on me or not let me have a job. He broke all three.

[Awakecj]

Where to begin?

I married too young to realize I had a choice, I was emotionally immature.

He hooked me in making me feel like a princess, now I realize I craved recognition, validation.

While walking down the aisle I wanted to turn and leave but I thought it was too late.

My family of origin was dysfunctional so his behavior seemed normal, I didn't recognize red flags.

I immediately became pregnant so that sealed the deal.

My exhwBPD was/is a high functioning alcoholic (supposedly recovering now), master manipulator, liar, cheater, etc., etc. very, very good at masking his true self and convincing me my thinking was wrong

Yes, I am co-dependent but not sure if I was 35 years ago when we started dating or if I became co-dependent over the years as a result of his alcoholism, being a mom, or because my mom was... .

[heartandwhole]

Question: If BPDs are as horrible and evil and difficult as we make them out to be (and I am NOT disputing that) then why are so many successful in getting married? If they are so incorrigible, why are so many able to accomplish that?

Does that speak to: 1) extreme codependency issues vis-a-vis the "non"; 2) situational competence vis-a-vis the BPD (being able to "hide" it sufficiently well); or 3) are they not as bad as we try to believe they are?

I'm curious and any feedback would be appreciated.   

I don't think people with BPD are horrible or evil.  They suffer from a personality disorder and cope as best as they can.  Despite the similarities in behavior that we all know about from reading forums, each pwBPD is as unique and individual as you and me.  There are people with BPD who are kind, caring, and trying hard to learn better coping skills. 

We are all dysfunctional in some areas, it's a matter of degree.  Yes, the behavior of a disordered person can hurt like hell.  But that pain existed inside of us before "they" came on the scene, right?  Otherwise we would have walked away, laughing, at the first sign of shenanigans.  But we didn't, did we?   

[Obibens]

I don't think people with BPD are horrible or evil.  They suffer from a personality disorder and cope as best as they can.  Despite the similarities in behavior that we all know about from reading forums, each pwBPD is as unique and individual as you and me.  There are people with BPD who are kind, caring, and trying hard to learn better coping skills. 

Excellent point!  Evil is a very strong word, but and it's really the behaviour that seems horrible, not the person themselves.  My daughter is diagnosed BPD and she is one that is trying and working on it very hard.  But she's 20 and out of the house, so her behaviour doesn't effect me on a daily basis.  And I never had the struggle relating to her that I have with my spouse - mostly likely because I have much better boundaries that I never let break down with her.  I would have no trouble supporting my spouse either if I didn't have to live with her.    Actually, I think I'm being serious about that.

We are all dysfunctional in some areas, it's a matter of degree.  Yes, the behavior of a disordered person can hurt like hell.  But that pain existed inside of us before "they" came on the scene, right?  Otherwise we would have walked away, laughing, at the first sign of shenanigans.  But we didn't, did we?   

Again, another good point :-)  But, I can only speak for myself in that the real shenanigans (love that word) began after we were married, and that made it a lot harder to walk away.

[karma_gal]

Where to begin?

I married too young to realize I had a choice, I was emotionally immature.

He hooked me in making me feel like a princess, now I realize I craved recognition, validation.

While walking down the aisle I wanted to turn and leave but I thought it was too late.

My family of origin was dysfunctional so his behavior seemed normal, I didn't recognize red flags.

I immediately became pregnant so that sealed the deal.

My exhwBPD was/is a high functioning alcoholic (supposedly recovering now), master manipulator, liar, cheater, etc., etc. very, very good at masking his true self and convincing me my thinking was wrong

Yes, I am co-dependent but not sure if I was 35 years ago when we started dating or if I became co-dependent over the years as a result of his alcoholism, being a mom, or because my mom was... .

These things are totally part of my story, too. 

I knew -- my gut told me -- not to get married, and I did anyway.  I remember drinking before we went to the church, and I'm not a drinker, so I was good and buzzed when it came time for the ceremony.  I think everyone thought it was just wedding day jitters, but I knew in my heart that I was making a mistake.  I just felt like it was too late now to back out.  I remember when it was my turn to say "I do," I just stood there... . and stood there.  It seemed like for forever.  Everybody was staring at me.  Here I was, concentrating on the cross on the wall, saying a prayer to God to please forgive me for what I was about to do, lie to him and everyone in the church, and to please help me find a way out of this mess before it was too late.  To this day, I joke that God is teaching me a lesson because this marriage has been long and painful and there was no easy way out of the mess I got myself into.  I wish this marriage would have never happened, but I can't imagine any other way I would have grown as much as I have otherwise. 

The other element, of course, is as you said, being raised in a dysfunctional family, my H's behavior seemed normal.  I was at a point in my life that I was figuring out that my family had issues, especially my mother, but I was too young yet to have done any type of recovery work or put much more thought than "they're crazy" into it.  My H behaved more like my father in the beginning, so I suppose I was just grateful he didn't act like my mother -- but he was saving that for later. 

I was into my early thirties before I really started taking a look at the people in my life, specifically my H and my FOO, and examining the behaviors and trying to figure out why I always felt bad after interactions with them, which led to therapy, which led to me figuring out how nuts the whole clan was, to here... . not healthy exactly but working on it. 

I was too young to be making any kind of big decisions like marriage when I did, too naive and gullible and uninformed.  I think I was just so eager to get out of my abusive household that when my H came along, he was so perfect in the beginning that I used him as my way out.  He was like a life preserver that I clung to for dear life... . only to find out after the ceremony that he had untied it from the boat and was going to make it his life's work to ensure we both drowned in his misery.   

[Lucky Jim]

Well said, musicfan42.  Those w/BPD are passionate and fun to be around . . . at least in the beginning.  Friends and family were quite impressed and complimentary when they first met my BPDxW, which seemed to confirm my initial attraction to her.  Yet those w/BPD put up a good front.  I had never heard about BPD (why would I?) and had no concept of what I was getting into.  Sure, I ignored the red flags, but one doesn't really appreciate what the red flags indicate at that juncture.  Plus, friends and family were attributing some of our problems to anxiety relating to the lack of commitment prior to marriage, and were predicting that those problems would subside after marriage, so I talked myself into doing something (getting married) that I knew on some level was not right for me.  LJ

[Kallor74]

As hard as it is for many to admit, but people who date and fall in love with BPDs have a strong narcissistic idealization of love and relationships. This is where idealization by BPDs does not ring any suspicion bells to wait a bit more, to know each other better, to look more into each other and judge on their actions and not words. We feel entitled for this love, especially when it pours at us! 

I agree with this statement but i would venture further that in addition to idealization of love and relationships behind that is the desire for that unconditional love from a parent we didn't receive and were subconciously looking for. 

When my pwBPD poured all that love and worship on me i felt like i was injected with the most powerful narcotic in the world.  I was enslaved.

[Wanna Move On]

I am soo thankful to all the people who took the time to share their experiences and/or thoughts here. This reinforces the old axiom that one learns MUCH more through listening than through talking.

Thank you, everyone!