Visitation waiting for court orders

[Kayvee]

Hi there, I've been a bit needy with the posts lately, just when I think things may settle into a nice peaceful predictable routine my BPD exhusband can create chaos from nowhere.

History is we've been separated 5 months and have a 16 month old baby.

After two months of legals to agree to a visitation schedule we have nothing agreed and now need to wait 12 -18 months to go to Court.

My ex says he is only available Sundays to see our son so we have said til there is an agreement he can have a weekly Sunday afternoon time slot, supervised by his parents or mine, as well as any other time mutually agreed.

This all happened this week.

So he is now texting tonight that he will come and take our son to the park, no supervision.

What should I do? Play it by ear and if he does do this just call the police?

So far his pattern is a lot of bravado on text and email but fairly spineless in person, still I want to be prepared.

Thanks.

[ForeverDad]

My experience with the police, probably similar in most areas, is that the police will not force one parent to give up the child to the other.  If there is no court order specifying a parenting schedule then that is even more likely to be the case, the parent "in possession" of the child gets to keep possession.

The police generally don't want to get involved enforcing a court order.  They're more likely to pressure or plead with the parents to 'resolve' the immediate incident at hand.

If you are the primary parent then you're in a strong position.  Don't be guilted, pressured or coerced.  But do be safe of course.

Visits every weekend will not work for long.  Sometimes you will be out of town, on vacation, at events or whatever.  That's why most courts have standardized on alternate weekends and short visits in between.  In your case you would want the visits to be short and supervised to some extent.  Just a reminder that what seems to work now may not work for the next 15 years, so beware of being too nice, too fair, too accommodating, too whatever.

As an example, when I tried to get the police to assist me in seeing my son during a time when there were no court orders, the police refused to accompany me - but confirmed that if my ex called 911 and said she felt threatened then they come rushing.  Um, I couldn't risk getting arrested, so I asked the officer what to do.  He said, Go to court and get an order.  I said, I have but the hearing is a couple months away.  He replied, Come back when you have a court order in hand.

Years later, my ex decided not to pick up our child from my daycare because she claimed she felt threatened by them.  The truth was she couldn't abide by other people's reasonable terms.   So she went to an alternate location specified for a different scenario where daycare was not applicable but of course our son wasn't there.  So a couple hours later she and the police would show up at my door seeking 'her' child.  Police didn't force an exchange even though it was now her time.  They sure did try to convince me to let an exchange happen - to resolve the immediate problem.  Then each time, whether it worked or not, the officer would tell us, "Fix this in court, I need to be available for more urgent calls."

[suffering_parent]

Like was said police won't help you.   My lawyer told me I could just deny the visit when the orders were not followed.   If they become enraged then you can call the police... .

[Nope]

If you let him have unsupervised now then unless something really screwed up happens that you can prove then the courts are going to just give him unsupervised later. If you are really adamant that his visits be supervised than there needs to be a history of only supervised visits. If he shows up with no plan for supervision, then no visit.

[ForeverDad]

If before the court he opposes supervised visits then the court may order an agency such as CPS or perhaps a court social workers to assess or evaluate you two.  In general the criteria may be history of abuse, neglect or endangerment.  And the professional will focus more on his parenting behaviors than his adult behaviors (even DV toward you).

A problem with the court is that if at some point your ex 'appears' more stable, then any prior limits might be lifted, especially if most of his behaviors were below the level of being 'actionable'.  However, instability, inconsistency and unpredictableness are common.  He may look okay to the court now yet relapse back into poor behaviors later on, so how do you get that handled in a court order?  Ponder that.

[momtara]

I went through this type of thing.  It's not easy, I know. 

Opening it up to 'any time mutually agreed' is a bit of a problem.  You need more structure.  He may get bored with asking for time, but for now, he is doing it.  Was the 'any time' subject to supervision?  If that's what you agreed to, stick to it, keep your boundary. 

You can say "Since we already agreed that your or my parents would watch him, are they available?"

Maybe you need to alter it so that he has to give you a week's notice, or something.  He's the one not making an agreement, so tell him that until you can come up with some structure, it has to be on such and such days and times, supervised, with a week's notice.

What has the status quo been for him seeing your son?  That often matters.

12 to 18 months for a parenting schedule seems silly.  In my state they force mediation on that so that something can be in place early.

If you ever have questions like this, you can post for free at avvo.com and lawyers usually answer.

[ForeverDad]

I recently got majority time.  Three years before that I got custody.  Three years before that we settled the divorce with Shared Parenting and equal time.  Two years before that we entered family court for the first time and the magistrate had to decide a temporary schedule/order in a half hour.  She had a DV case pending against her in another court.  She made allegations of child abuse against me but CPS stood up and stated there were "no concerns" about me.  Apparently the magistrate thought that put us both back to square one, so we were asked one question: What are your work schedules?  I replied I had a standard 5 days schedule.  She replied she worked from home (despite living in a shelter because I had possession of the house).  Magistrate ought to have researched the pending DV case against ex, but I'll never know.  Mother got temp custody, Father got alternate weekends and 3 hours on alternate Thursdays.  In short, we got 'default' temp orders favoring mother but not assigning any unusual restrictions on either of us.

[Kayvee]

Thanks people! Yes the history if the visits so far is that ever single one has been supervised over the last 5 months.

I think what has happened is that he didn't realise he was supervised until he saw the word in black and white in a legal letter. Given he wants to oppose anything I suggest or propose or ask for, he now has decided this is what he will oppose.

After I posted I did call the police and they told me exactly what you said. Interesting the law moves in the same ways in USA and Australia.

So my plan is this. When it comes to the visit time, my son will be out f the house but close by in a car with my Dad. If the ex arrives without his parents and insisting on an unsupervised visit, my son simply does not come home.

I like this plan as my son does not have to witness this scene at all. I think it will also show my ex he does not have control over this and he is not in the power seat.

It's a long wait to a court date and I do hope I don't need to do this every week but if he makes me, then I will.

I am going to check with the lawyer today if it s not damaging to my case for me to do this. I think should be ok given I have done everything possible for 5 months now and also that it is in my so s best interest to not have to be present as this potential scene between his parents. He has been sending threatening style messages to me about it so I have good reason to think thee will be a scene, although his pattern is to threaten via text and email and then be meek in person.

I am also going to make sure to have another bloke there - a male friend just so there is a male presence if things get out of hand

ForeverDad you a right about weekends not always working, but as the visits are fairly short due to the baby's age it is a two hour timeslot and I have chosen what works for me 4-6 pm. I am always home by 4 pm to get dinner ready sect so it is not too invasive on my weekend. I can go away for a weekend too and just need to be home by that time.

Thank a again everyone for your support. This is such an awful thing t go through but it is an as sing help to be able to post a question and get such meaningful advice and feedback from people who have been there.

[Kayvee]

Momtara I agree the visits need more structure but he is just reusing to agree to anything. I offered him a few days a week, a few hours at a time and this is in line with what is age appropriate for my son.

My ex did not agree, claimed he is not available to see our son Monday to Friday, despite e fact he finishes work at 3pm and only works about  a 15 minute drive from where I live.

He said the only day that worked for him is Sunday, so I gave in and tried to organise a regular time slot.

Now he says he won't do supervised.

This whole process has cost me $4 k and the big issue is there is no agreement.

[momtara]

$4K for some is just a start, unfortunately.  Anyway, you have to stick to your guns.  If he has only done supervised, keep it that way.  Be gentle but don't hedge too much.  If he rejected all those plans and times, then that's kind of his problem.  Figure out some guidelines that seem fair. 

Also, courts don't like things to be up in the air like this.  Why are they waiting 18-24 months?  You could get a hearing sooner, pendente lite, no?  It costs a lot, but may save you money in the end considering what yu're spending.