I can´t find in my heart a way to trust him

[MissTajo]

He lies.

He lies about little things.

Stuff that is so stupid to lie about that I can't even begin to understand why he does it.

I have my faults, I know I do, but I  am worth telling the truth. Everyone is! Right?

In these last few days even talking to him and listening to the sweet voice he makes when talking to me , bothers me.

It bothers me because I know it is the voice of guilt.

He is always feeling guilty for something.

Most of the times I ask if he knows why and he says he doesn't know.

But he knows.

He feels guilty for not working. We have been together for a year and 2 months and he doesn't even wants to find work, he is too afraid of it.

He feels guilty because he talks to a lot of female friends on skype. (I know he does but when he mentions skype he only refers to male friends and even when I say "Honey , its ok to talk to female friends too. I don't mind. I have male friends too." )

But he hides it because he has the wrong conversations with them... . I know he does.

Do they need to flirt all the time?

I don't know if I can handle the fact I don't trust the person that I love much longer. It crushes me inside. I feel my throat closing and I feel like trowing up all the time. Its a physical and mental despair.

I have lost both my parents in the last few year. I wasn't even 30 when I lost them and that pain I will carry it with me forever. Missing them is excruciating. I don't want to allow myself to suffer for a man. But I do.

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[waverider]

This compulsive lying comes from deep seated insecurity about always having to cover up. It is hard to deal with as a partner, I have the same problem too.

Having worked constructively on dealing with and accepting BPD over the last couple of years my partner is "more" open and honest. However, it is still more of a managed condition. It does not create much to slip easily back into the fibbing mode. The best I can do is try not to interrogate her in a way which backs her into this default mode. I take most of what she says as interesting but would not stake anything important on it being the absolute truth.

You can change the RS dynamics to reduce the odds, but you are unlikely to eliminate it as a default mode. You can only do your best to accept that it is part of the disorder, and place boundaries around those areas that are important.

[MissTajo]

The best I can do is try not to interrogate her in a way which backs her into this default mode. I take most of what she says as interesting but would not stake anything important on it being the absolute truth.

You can change the RS dynamics to reduce the odds, but you are unlikely to eliminate it as a default mode. You can only do your best to accept that it is part of the disorder, and place boundaries around those areas that are important.

I understand what you are saying and maybe my next question is in my mind because I have developed this non existent future-cinderela-love cenario but: is it possible to be happy without trust?

[waverider]

It is possible to be happy, but as you are probably aware you have to channel more reliance back through yourself.

An analogy I once used is that of two trees growing side by side as the grow their branches become interwown and the form around each other. Yet they are both individual trees with their own roots, foundations and drawing their own nourishment for survival. if one of those trees is rotten and starts to decay. The other will continue to grow and develop regardless. If the healthy tree has fully a developed foundation even if the other starts to fall on to it, it will support it but not topple but deflect te falling tree if the weight is too much.

The point being we most remain an individual that does not totally rely on another. Too often in relationships we forget this and we "graft" ourtselves onto others, so that any disease spreads.

If your  trust is limited, you need to know the limits and only trust that far. Acceptance of the reality will also prevent you from being suspicious. Ask yourself if he is talking imaginary rot, so what? Little kids talk nonsense all the time and we are still capable of loving them, because we are aware thats just the way kids are. You have to accept your partner as they are rather than what you would like them to be.

You need to keep solid boundaries about BS over important issues, but most of the time it is compounding small issues, about stuff that leads you wondering why they even bother.

Still doesn't mean it is easy, or that you will able to achieve this. It does make respect very difficult, and you end up a carer rather than a partner

[MissTajo]

It is possible to be happy, but as you are probably aware you have to channel more reliance back through yourself.

An analogy I once used is that of two trees growing side by side as the grow their branches become interwown and the form around each other. Yet they are both individual trees with their own roots, foundations and drawing their own nourishment for survival. if one of those trees is rotten and starts to decay. The other will continue to grow and develop regardless. If the healthy tree has fully a developed foundation even if the other starts to fall on to it, it will support it but not topple but deflect te falling tree if the weight is too much.

The point being we most remain an individual that does not totally rely on another. Too often in relationships we forget this and we "graft" ourtselves onto others, so that any disease spreads.

If your  trust is limited, you need to know the limits and only trust that far. Acceptance of the reality will also prevent you from being suspicious. Ask yourself if he is talking imaginary rot, so what? Little kids talk nonsense all the time and we are still capable of loving them, because we are aware thats just the way kids are. You have to accept your partner as they are rather than what you would like them to be.

You need to keep solid boundaries about BS over important issues, but most of the time it is compounding small issues, about stuff that leads you wondering why they even bother.

Still doesn't mean it is easy, or that you will able to achieve this. It does make respect very difficult, and you end up a carer rather than a partner

There are so many sentences in your reply that helped me that Im finding hard to thank you properly. Your post opened my eyes and thanks to that we had the most amazing weekend. Like we haven't had in a while. I was able to keep my mind focused on the positive aspects on this bright, disturbed and interesting boy I fell in love with and forget all about my jealousy and the possibility of him lying. We laughed, we talked, we were friends again. Friends who fell in love.

I will work on me. And I will help him work on himself.

Thank you waverider 

[an0ught]

Hi MissTajo,

He lies.

He lies about little things.

Stuff that is so stupid to lie about that I can't even begin to understand why he does it.

I think there are four distinct mechanisms that drive the lying and it is worth to be aware of them. Not saying you are responsible for it - quite the contrary.

1) Need for validation. Manipulating others to provide it by saying just the right things.

2) Fear. Lack of trust in YOU. (now that I wrote it I realize the title of your post. These things are often mutual).

3) Twisting. Instinctive distortions when thinking/speaking.

4) Splitting/disassociation. Lack of an integrated self.

You can't protect yourself from all disappointments with him. But then you can't protect yourself from disappointments in any relationship. What you can do however is making sure that there are limits to the damage he can be doing by having strict limits/boundaries on the actions/commitments you make based on his statements.

Working with the LESSONS will help to reduce it. Keep your straight ways and be a role model 

[MissTajo]

Working with the LESSONS will help to reduce it. Keep your straight ways and be a role model 

I will always do my best

[lemon flower]

They lie about stupid (or sometimes serious) things meanwile they can also be completely honest, telling everyone who wants to hear their whole life-story or revealing intimate details that I didn't even wanted to know... .  

I noticed that once my BP-friend gets totally occupied by telling his story (or how the story lives in his mind), he isn't able to lie anymore!

I remember he once had an appointment with a social worker to try to find some help, and before the conversation he had the intention not to tell her too much and to keep some things hidden that he considered "wrong" information, but once he started to talk he couldn't stop, telling her everything including the stuff he wanted to hide  

maybe they're lying "too often" and "too easily" but in the end they can't keep anything secret, you'll always find out sooner or later... .  

[ziniztar]

What I notice is that when I ask him something directly, he usually gives me a very candid answer. Maybe even too candid sometimes (which then is part of manipulation again, I guess). When he starts talking to me, I find him to be twisting the truth or giving very mixed messages. Then when I ask a direct question again, he answers.

There was a time that he was hit in a bar and got some serious injuries. When I heard about it I figured "that probably happened when he dysregulated". I asked: "What happened that night, do you remember?" "No... dunno... he was being really weird and then I stepped on his foot and then... . I dunno."

A few weeks later we were talking about the way he dysregulates. I asked: ":)id that happen when you were in the bar and got into the fight?" "Yeah."

Maybe open and closed questions can help a little bit? Closed questions leave less room for manipulation as there are less optional answers.

MissTajo, Good luck with the trust issue, it's difficult. I think if you can somehow accept that there are reasons for the lying (as anought mentions), you can realize it is part of the BPD. I have trained myself not to question him on cheating stuff, as that probably sets me up for disaster. I'll go crazy in checking up on him and he'll notice I'm not trusting him and live up to it. He knows that if I see any proof (in text, person, whatever) that he cheated, I'm gone.

[waverider]

They lie about stupid (or sometimes serious) things meanwile they can also be completely honest, telling everyone who wants to hear their whole life-story or revealing intimate details that I didn't even wanted to know... .  

I noticed that once my BP-friend gets totally occupied by telling his story (or how the story lives in his mind), he isn't able to lie anymore!

I remember he once had an appointment with a social worker to try to find some help, and before the conversation he had the intention not to tell her too much and to keep some things hidden that he considered "wrong" information, but once he started to talk he couldn't stop, telling her everything including the stuff he wanted to hide  

maybe they're lying "too often" and "too easily" but in the end they can't keep anything secret, you'll always find out sooner or later... .  

Thats just lack of regulation, they let everything out they are feeling, sometimes its true, sometimes its just twisted perception, sometimes an outright fib, but its what they want to be true.

Generally its a case of too much information.

Keeping to simple yes/no questions gets better answers before their thoughts either run away with them or just stall, as they are trying to work out what they think will sound better rather than just sticking to important facts.

[MissTajo]

waverider, zinitar, triss , Thank you, guys!

I have talked a lot with him about my trust issues (most were caused by other r/s I had) and we managed to reduce my level of insecurity. (impossible to make it disappear... . ) I realized that I will not be responsible for his actions if he does something wrong one day and that I would only be responsible for accepting that mistake. If he cheats, he knows I'm gone. I can deal with the ups and downs but never with infidelity. I try to do all the right things (not all the time but I'm learning) and I have to remember that. He says he never cheated on a girlfriend. I will believe him because not believing him would not be fair to him. If he does it. His loss. I'm beginning to interiorize that.

About his lies... . I know it's like a self defense mechanism of him. I know it's wrong. He knows its wrong. I will try not to put him between a rock and a hard place trying to get the truth out of him by pressure. I will try and be, well, I think smooth about it.

One day at a time. One problem at a time, I guess... .

[Stalwart]

Oh yes trust is above all one of the toughest and highest hurdles I’ve found to tackle. I can’t say I’m there yet but I’m well along on my run for the jump.

I don’t know if you’ve been in a situation with your friend that you have reason to really mistrust him (apart from the evasive type answers, vagueness and confusing answers they sometimes give. I did have reason with a major case of infidelity. Her total doing my total naivety. I’ve always been the type to give unconditional trust and hope that people respect and keep it. I don’t know if I can say that any longer but I can say I don’t like the alternative of not being able to give trust and living in a state of fearful mistrust.

My wife and I have come a long way in the last year since we started everything over and she was diagnosed and working on her while I learn and keep working on myself.

Trust, well she has stepped up to calling me all the time when she goes out, being extremely open, asking me if things are OK if she does them, like meet an old (male) friend for a coffee when she goes back home, (I’m invited). It’s a management issue and I find that as time goes on I’m starting to both trust more and I want to be able to relax the system, that does scare me though. Once bitten twice shy or first time shame on her, second time shame on me.

I do know one thing my wife recognizes her illness, works with a therapist and has even recently come to be able to start to read on her own about it in books. All great stuff, up until now live was just too hard to overcome the difficulties caused for her to concentrate when reading. I know she does not like to live our lives on a constant basis in her illness. I can so understand that and I respect that. I don’t ask a lot of questions, nor do I speak a lot about decisions she makes or things she says being based on her illness. Even when it still comes to some of those little oddities in explanations you know you have question as true or not. Most times when she relates things from the past she is trying to sort out her own thoughts from such a dysregulated state of spiraling totally out of control in her’s and our lives that she really can’t define what she really thought.

It’s hard to know the person you love may not always tell the truth or be able to. I wouldn’t sweat the small stuff. I understand it comes from hiding fears and not wanting to exploit her challenged qualities. That’s OK with me.

Big stuff, well Miss Tajo you’ll have to figure out if you have a problem there or not but remember to just keep making sure you don’t give him reason to believe he needs anyone else and that’s the best you can possible do to protect the fidelity of  your own relationship. If he feels totally loved, accepted, protected and wanted by you on a constant basis will he have a NEED to seek more confirmation in his life. I know that was what started my relationship spiraling out of control and my wife taking the actions she did. We’d been married ten years, not knowing her illness but living in this confusing life and she felt as though I didn’t support her, love her or want her any longer because I’d changed so much since we met. Fact is she was right. Lesson learned, if you love someone cherish them enough to let them know that constantly in every way you can or risk someone else who does do that taking your place. She doesn’t want anymore out of our relationship than any other woman does, to know she’s loved, respected, wanted and valued. (Maybe she just needs it a little bit more though.) So will your friend.

I know one thing, not being able to trust and give trust is a terrible place for your soul to survive, mine anyway. I have to find ways to bring it back and have faith in it. I don’t really believe love can exist without it. So if I love my wife and I do I have to go forward with trust. It sounds like you may need to as well.

Good luck finding that interaction between the two of you, it can be found. It’s all about honesty, communications and want between the two of you to understand the need and find that.

The best to both of you going forard