There is nothing we could have done about their inability to communicate

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

It's a simple as that.

And it is the conclusion I keep coming back to: the one that gives me the most peace.

Being likely codependent, I am quick to blame myself more than someone else. Believing my inner critic comes more easily and more emphatically than truly believing that someone else was bad or wrong.

But as I explore my ability to tolerate incredible abuse in the name of love, the one thing that I cannot own... . cannot blame myself for... . was my exBPD's inability to chat it out. His with-holding and passive nature, his guarded language and clandestine ways; and ultimately his inability to communicate his feeling all sit squarely on him - and not me.

It was the main thing that helped in letting it all go.

As we beat ourselves up for who we became... . the awful things we did and said... . the inescapable fact remains that a relationship can never go the distance without communication. And he couldn't do that.

The End

BB12

[bb12]

It's a simple as that.

And it is the conclusion I keep coming back to: the one that gives me the most peace.

Being likely codependent, I am quick to blame myself more than someone else. Believing my inner critic comes more easily and more emphatically than truly believing that someone else was bad or wrong.

But as I explore my ability to tolerate incredible abuse in the name of love, the one thing that I cannot own... . cannot blame myself for... . was my exBPD's inability to chat it out. His with-holding and passive nature, his guarded language and clandestine ways; and ultimately his inability to communicate his feeling all sit squarely on him - and not me.

It was the main thing that helped in letting it all go.

As we beat ourselves up for who we became... . the awful things we did and said... . the inescapable fact remains that a relationship can never go the distance without communication. And he couldn't do that.

The End

BB12

[fromheeltoheal]

was my exBPD's inability to chat it out.

Yes.  And I agree that a relationship has no chance when there isn't good communication.  My ex could 'communicate' somewhat well when she wasn't triggered, although of course the focus was always on her stuff, but at times she did show decent awareness and self-awareness, more so in the beginning.  The part that bugged me from the beginning was an inability to get close to her emotioanlly, and the more I tried the more she pushed back; that distance she kept became my obsession and is a big reason I stuck around so long, if I could only relate to her differently, put her more at ease, she would open up.  Nope.  She wouldn't go there, and my take is it was more an unwillingness than an inability, maybe a little of both.  Or one lead to the other: she kept the defenses up because she was ashamed of who she really is, and if she opened up I would see the real her and leave.  Of course you can only keep a lid on that stuff for so long, so it would bubble up as rage and blame, and underlying confusion and frustration as to what I was trying to get at with her, so yeah, there's the inability.

[bb12]

an inability to get close to her emotioanlly, and the more I tried the more she pushed back; that distance she kept became my obsession and is a big reason I stuck around so long, if I could only relate to her differently, put her more at ease, she would open up.  Nope.  She wouldn't go there.

Same. The root of my obsession and inability to let go was ultimately my desire / need to crack the code.

If they are so bright and capable on so many levels... . and seem to really like me (idealization)... . then surely we can get closer organically, right? So we commit to that journey but at a certain stage encounter aloofness and emotional vagueness, and this  leaves us confused - especially because they won't leave. They seem committed to it on the one hand (i.e. they keep coming over) but completely checked-out emotionally and resentful of our attempts to understand what's going on. Baffling stuff

BB12

[fromheeltoheal]

Yep, baffling stuff, and sad too, we coulda been great together... .

But ultimately that's the good news: the fact that I'm incompatible with someone with a personality disorder is reassuring, and I am enough, am capable, my head and my heart were in the right place, just pointed the wrong direction.  What can I do today to be a more authentic version of who I am?  And I can't wait to see what the universe puts in my life once I do.

[bb12]

Amazing when the focus shifts to us isn't it?... . perhaps for the first time in our lives

I was so used to having to DO something to feel loved... . to EARNING it instead of just BEING and feeling ENOUGH. The trajectory of this journey for me has been incredible... . as I am sure it is for everyone on here when they take their personal inventory.

But as much as I have learned about myself and as much as I have identified inappropriate thought patterns and behaviours and articulated the things I need to work on and evolve past my old codependent self, I think sometimes that much of this was as simple as being 'pointed in the wrong direction' , as you say.

I think I was always a moral and solid person, but that I didn't apply a robust enough process as I chose friends and lovers. I was a scattergun of love and goodwill. Now I am more cautious - and rightly so. I have learned that we pay a high price for loving in the wrong direction, but also that the lesson is not to stop loving.

And that is all the closure I need



BB12

[fromheeltoheal]

Amazing when the focus shifts to us isn't it?... . perhaps for the first time in our lives

I was so used to having to DO something to feel loved... . to EARNING it instead of just BEING and feeling ENOUGH. The trajectory of this journey for me has been incredible... . as I am sure it is for everyone on here when they take their personal inventory.

But as much as I have learned about myself and as much as I have identified inappropriate thought patterns and behaviours and articulated the things I need to work on and evolve past my old codependent self, I think sometimes that much of this was as simple as being 'pointed in the wrong direction' , as you say.

I think I was always a moral and solid person, but that I didn't apply a robust enough process as I chose friends and lovers. I was a scattergun of love and goodwill. Now I am more cautious - and rightly so. I have learned that we pay a high price for loving in the wrong direction, but also that the lesson is not to stop loving.

And that is all the closure I need

Yes!  More validation, and thank you bb.  Very well put, and you and I are on the same page. 

[Mutt]

Yep, baffling stuff, and sad too, we coulda been great together... .

But ultimately that's the good news: the fact that I'm incompatible with someone with a personality disorder is reassuring, and I am enough, am capable, my head and my heart were in the right place, just pointed the wrong direction.  What can I do today to be a more authentic version of who I am?  And I can't wait to see what the universe puts in my life once I do.

Agreed 

[CoasterRider]

favorite part was when he always discuss anything important over text. We almost never talked about relationship matters in person. Asking for a mature adult sit down, was never in the cards. When I could get him cornered for a talk I always felt like I was lecturing my teenage kid, and his response would be on par.

[irishmarmot]

As the FOG starts lifting, we spent a lot of time texting and talking in the 4 months that I knew her.  Everyday, and it could be 4 years and I know nothing about her.  I had no trust in her and she didn't trust me.  I thought I was in love with her but now I'm not so sure.  The pain that I'm feeling must be coming from my FOO issues.   And I have repeated this in every relationship in my adult life.  Her inability to communicate is the same as my mother.   And that is where the origin of these strong feelings are coming from.  Although I am contradicting myself I did love her on some level just as I love my mother.   Unlike my mother she was able to get past my defenses.   Through all the validation and constant attention I let my gaurd down and when the dark side came it made it hard to let go. 

[maxen]

i've kept this on a tab for a long time. the OP, bb12: i could have written every word of it, about my w and about myself.

examples: when we were in the house, before we were married even, i asked her if she could tidy up a mess she'd left in the kitchen (she was a disaster as a housemate). her response was to blast at me that there was something i had left undone weeks earlier. and she was probably right. but she hoarded it, she couldn't say it, and she wouldn't address my issue when i raised it. years later when a light malfunctioned in the basement, i said i would put the dining room lamp down there. she didn't respond. so i put the dining room lamp down there. she didn't react. a month later she stood in the dining room yelling that "there was a lamp in this room that i liked in case you didn't notice!" and finally instead of telling me she was unhappy, she engaged in a 2 month campaign of deceit and bolted. when i poured out my pain she said she would neither read nor respond to the notes i sent.

illuminating: about 2 years in i mentioned that if there was anything i did that bugged her she should just let me know. her response: a couple should never have anything to say about each other's habits and accept everything just as it is. i was dumbstruck. now i'd say that this was her way of fending off any comments from me about her.

she also lied about little things often enough, things about which she didn't have to lie.

why? i put it down the hairtrigger sense of being judged. the least suggestion that i might have an issue - a thing every couple must have, if they're humans and not robots - was taken as a big "you're no good." but she was so very good. the idea that i might love her even if i didn't love every last thing about her was not available to her. (she complained after the end that i'd "only tolerated" her, e.g., alcohol abuse.) the non-communication threw a wet blanket over the marriage. it got to the point that i though my communication would be a waste of time: she's backbite, deny, not respond. so i stopped. i felt unattended to. that's not a relationship. she never once initiated an emotional conversation herself. (and perhaps there were deeper issues she didn't want to take the chance on exploring: who knows where a conversation might go?)

so why do i keep looking for excuses for her behavior? it's our disease here! i really was badly co-dependent. the circular arguments instead of addressing the issue: i did get very frustrated. i banged my head into the wall a few times, literally. unable to articulate to myself the dynamic she was creating, i thought if i said things loudly enough, she'd hear. but all she could hear was "he's saying a critical thing and it's intolerable for me to acknowledge any validity in it and i'm hurt."

i hope, bb12, that i can come to absorb, really absorb, her responsibility for her non-communication.

crikey i feel better for having written that.

[Turkish]

I'll confess that I was more of the passive aggressive silent type than she was, though if she were really angry, she was too. I was the one accused of being the poor communicator. I don't think raging, and saying things like "you know what pisses me off, so don't do it!" and all sorts of other controlling verbalizations qualified as good communication either. Sometimes she would say things that were so off the wall, that I couldn't even think of a response. When she came to me 9 months ago and had the conversation which boiled down to: "I'm unhappy in this r/s, you need to figure out what to do to make he happy again," My response was minimal. I really didn't know what to do or say at that point. In the end, I was blamed for not taking charge and getting us into couples' counseling earlier. Again, I failed to be the parent she wanted me to be, even though I was busy being a real parent to our little kids, taking up the slack from her gradual detachment from them (as well as planning and running our household financially).

The funny thing is that she often told me what to do when she was angry. I see her use this on S4 sometimes, and it seems remarkably like S.E.T. In this, some FOG lingers in that I didn't do what she wanted... . but then she was basically telling me to treat her like a child emotionally, and I just resented that. I mistakenly thought that besides the depression and emotional dysregulation, that she was actually capable of handling things like an adult, when clearly she wasn't. I desired a more equitable r/s with an adult, and it just wasn't possible. I stood up for myself, and she bolted. I think our communication issues could have been worked out in counseling, but she just wanted to leave. So I let her.

Now she communicates like a teen with her bf (I hear the difference when I occasionally talk to her on her time), and like an adult parent when we talk. It's very unsettling to me to see someone so split in their personality.

[rollercoaster24]

Hi all

I agree, when that tiny voice inside me is still blaming myself, you know the one that said 'oh they can't help it', etc.

Be warned, I am really laying it out here, mixed feelings of guilt, even though I had to use 'tough love'.

I lost track of the amount of times I had to repeat myself and exBP never listened anyway, or took any notice.

Things like, "Please do not come to my workplace, or be at my workplace if you are upset, angry, or we are having troubles. I do not wish to discuss our personal issues anywhere near my workplace',

exBP has been unemployed almost 5 years now, despite having a degree in his industry, and would frequent my place of business every day morning and night, occasionally helping, but mostly trying to cause trouble, even whilst he was doing a little to help.

I would always ask him to leave if he kept trying to provoke an argument and he never would understand this. Didn't matter how often I explained that he was to drive off somewhere and sit until he had calmed down, and was welcome there if he was behaving himself. He would always up his abuse, and drive off in a flurry of verbal abuse or drama, (much to my humiliation and his own but he never cared).

I made the same rule at my home the whole time, and he ignored this too. Often keeping me awake, starting provocations, verbally abusive rants about others, which always cycled around to being attacks on my character too, or our relationship. Validating didn't work, it only seemed to give him license to act out more.

Besides, it is pretty hard to validate someone, when pretty much everything they do and say when 'upset' as exBP liked to call it, was verbally abusive, threatening and aggressive.

I was always called 'abusive' because I refused to be understanding and caring, when he was being nasty and horrible and aggressive in everything he said. I told him that I couldn't handle being around him when he acted this way, and that I felt like he was expecting me to be his therapist, I told him to go talk to a therapist, instead of laying all his stuff on me. I also explained that I was trying to be a better person and not be verbally abusive, and I couldn't do it, and it wasn't fair, if he wasn't going to try and change himself.

Waste of time that was!

Our recent breakup was last week, and this time I have to stick to my guns if he tries to recycle me back again, with false words and admissions of guilt, (I later find he doesn't really mean that or feel genuine).

I told him that I believe he needs to seek help, like he often has admitted and even joked about, and it isn't fair to continue to ruin our relationship because he is failing to address this.

The reason we broke up?

Last week, he came to work with me again, in the morning to 'help' this time, spent a little time 'helping', about 20 minutes in total actually, and whilst he was there, proceeded to start ranting abusively about some random guy who works at a business there that he doesn't like, but has never done any harm, and he doesn't even know him anyway!

I said that I didn't wish to listen to him denigrating this person, and that I was trying to get my job done.

There was immediate rage at me, and his abusiveness was then directed at me, (which I knew eventually would be turned to an attack on me and his life with me anyway). He said something really horrible to me, and then marched off inside the mall we were cleaning together.

I was so angry with him for starting this crap at my workplace yet again, that I flew back at him and told him he was the nastiest person I had ever met! (I know I shouldn't have done that! but it feels true at times).

I decided to leave him to do that part alone, (rather than end in a slanging match) and go to another area, because I have learnt not to be around him when he is like this, it only escalates, and he tries to provoke an argument with me. I know better.

So I went off to clean the toilets, waiting for him to come out straight away when he realised I wasn't joining him in there, and especially after I gave him some of his own medicine.

He didn't, to my amazement, he actually finished what he was doing, but 20 minutes later, came out to try to provoke another fight.

I refused to argue any more or engage in name calling, and simply repeated myself. Please leave me alone, I have a job to finish.

When he wouldn't listen, and kept following me around trying to get a reaction, I waited until he had gone out the back to his car to get his cigarette, and then I hid in my office.

I watched him marching around, (on the CCTV monitors) looking for me, trying to provoke an argument again, by this time it was getting close to 7am, and shoppers were starting to come in. I didn't want humiliations again, so I continued to hide.

Whilst in there, my heart was beating out of my chest, as his behaviour is alarming and stressful.

By the time he walked around a few times unsuccessfully finding me, he was I guess, ropeable, so he kicked at the back roller door of my office, and screamed out that I was a 'mind game playing C**T!).

After which, he still stayed there, and followed me around trying to provoke me. I ignored him, and tried to carry on with my job, and he then threatened me that he would ruin me in the community here, telling them all this nasty stuff, like I apparently do to him.

I ignored him and walked off.

He kept ignoring the fact that I had asked him to leave, and that I had told him that I was tired of being humiliated at work and tired of him trying to provoke fights all the time, and feeling justified in doing so. I told him it wasn't fair that he admitted he needs help and then the next minute denies it.

I said that I felt he really didn't value our relationship or me, if he wasn't willing to work on the things he needed to do to help himself. I told him to leave, but he wouldn't leave, (even though he kept asking me if I wanted him to).

And, often, I have repeatedly told him, that of course deep down I don't want him to leave, or to break up, but if he continues to act this way, what choice is he giving me?

This is met with silence.

Next, he continues to follow me around at work, refusing to leave. When I finish my morning shift, he asks me where I am going, I say home. He follows me home, and then asks if he can come in and talk. And feels we should talk about our things, our future and make some plans.

I feel this is likely futile and just a diversion, but I am in no mood for any more drama so I make him a coffee and try to carry on with the day.

At no point, does he apologise for what he said and how he acted once again, at my workplace.

The fact that he behaved himself (mostly) for the rest of the day, and that I was so tired and exhausted from the same crap over the past 4 months he had been back in my life, made me just give up trying to resolve anything, or get him to go.

If I try to ask him to leave I get huge guilt trips, since he is 'homeless'.

The next day?

He is OK for a bit, then wants me to tell him when I am home from work. I am home not 10 minutes and he arrives anyway. I get the cold attitude, as if I am mean for being home when he is homeless.

He comes in with an attitude, but wants to tell me he has found a machine that I am interestedin, (whilst he was down getting a loan from this business that loans, pawns, and sells stuff too, Cash Converters).

Goes on about 'how much he is saving me this time again, thousands etc'. But I had already mentioned that I wasn't willing to pay thousands, and would keep looking for a cheaper used one.

So he tells me where it is, and that he has bargained the guy down from $200 to $170. Asks if I am interested, I say 'Yes' so we drive down in my van to check it out. I see the demo that it  works, has the parts with it, and buy it. 5 Guys including BP lift it into my van, (I had no ramps).

We drive off to home, and as we drive, my iphone5 gets a reminder beep, (driving past the location of a bike shop I was at weeks ago and forgot to turn off the reminder).

BP was already moody and quiet, so anything would have set him off that day. This was another excuse to attack/accuse me.

He said he wanted to see my phone when we got home straight away.

I showed him the reminder on the phone, and said 'see, its an old reminder, not a message'.

That wasn't good enough, he snatched my phone and ran off with it again. And I followed him telling him to give it back as after what he had done to my first expensive phone, (he smashed it last year, whilst also assaulting me and damaging all my other property I had on me at the time), I said I didn't feel comfortable with him having my phone.

Nope, he wouldn't let up or give it back straight away.

He kept up with the accusations, even though there was nothing there to accuse me about.

This ranting kept up, and I simply told him I wasn't going to argue, defend because I hadn't done anything wrong, and if anyone looked suspicious with their phone, it was him, given his phone had been in his car, pretty much most days since being back in my life, along with many lies, and nights where he disappeared.

I had said my piece, (not going to do the back and forth any longer) and he was still going on at me, shouting, walking out the front door, shouting nasty accusations about me, and insults.

I told him if this was the way he was going to act, then like I said, he may as well leave, because me driving off and leaving him alone in my house isn't an option. He is not trustworthy enough to stay in our house alone, after what he had done there in the past, and recent present, (turning off the CCTV cameras out the front etc), unlocking doors, so he could get into the house in our absence when neither I nor my family knew he would be there. Not to mention, stealing my son in laws mail, and deliberately destroying it, to cause trouble and delays to son in law.

If I still try and get him to drive off to cool down, he amps up his abusiveness, and wont leave, or comes back immediately to provoke me some more.

In the end, I rang his Father, and asked if he could ring him and talk some sense into him, since ringing the police only serves to cause more trouble and resentment further down the track, and the police don't care anyway to be honest.

At the same time, I refuse to be abused in my home, or harassed for hours on end.

Moments later, he realised I was on the phone to his parents, and behaved briefly, then my daughter and son in law walked in, whilst he was going on at me again. Son in law, (whom BP has had a massive hate grudge against since son in law moved in) has no tolerance for BP now, after what he had done, and also the threats/instigating of violence etc. So he told him to leave, as he had said that if he came home and saw BP acting out again, he would ask him to leave.

Daughter and son in law pay board to stay here, and have done the whole time. As soon as BP came back to the house, they decided it might be best for them to move out, as they cannot handle the whole drama any more.

So, son in law ended up with BP at the front door, and even though it was really hard to watch, Son in law had to physically remove BP out the door.

The reality is, that if my daughter and I were not there, the situation with BP would have been very different, and very dangerous. If there were not any witnesses, there would be no telling what he would really have done to son in law. Since I have had to (not by choice) listen to the nasty, violent aggressive things he rants about him, off and on for the past 2 years or so. I only listened when I had no choice, and no escape, but it still affected me a lot.

I also knew that BP was only putting on an act, and trying to make us all look like jerks, by suddenly pretending to be waif/victim like.

I also knew that I would be the one to cop worse abuse in the future, if I allowed a recycle that day.

As it was, BP knocked on the door several times, pretending he had left something in the house, (he hadn't as I knew). Then he asked if I wanted to spend the day doing something with him not here at the house.

Given the times I had been kidnapped or trapped in his car in the past, and now he had more to 'use against me' I decided it best not to talk further with him, or try to reconcile anything, it is pointless, and I have been on the same roundabout with him for too long.

Let me know your thoughts, as I know I have gone on too much here. Sorry guys. Guess I need some validation myself.

[Skip]

   hmmm... .  Anyone see themselves in this model?

I certainly found flaws in my communication - when my feelinga were hurt I would withdraw - sometimes I pouted.  I might have a little Jewish mother in me (and I'm not even Jewish).  So mark me down for defensiveness, stonewalling.  I think my ex would add "criticism" - and considering her sensitivities and my sense of humor - I give myself a C-.  

The truth is that I read all of this and didn't see myself in any of it.  It wasn't until I dribbled some of this into another relationship that I saw it - and even there I didn't see it for almost a year.  

Seeing things like this are really helpful as they are not hard to fix.

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse is a metaphor depicting the end of times in the New Testament. They describe conquest, war, hunger, and death respectively. Dr. Gottman uses this metaphor to describe communication styles that can predict the end of a relationship.

The first horseman of the apocalypse is criticism. Criticizing your partner is different than offering a critique or voicing a complaint! The latter two are about specific issues, whereas the former is an ad hominem attack: it is an attack on your partner at the core. In effect, you are dismantling his or her whole being when you criticize.

   Complaint: "I was scared when you were running late and didn't call me. I thought we had agreed that we would do that for each other."

   Criticism: "You never think about how your behavior is affecting other people. I don't believe you are that forgetful, you’re just selfish! You never think of others! You never think of me!”


If you find that you are your partner are critical of each other, don't assume your relationship is doomed to fail. The problem with criticism is that, when it becomes pervasive, it paves the way for the other, far deadlier horsemen. It makes the victim feel assaulted, rejected, and hurt, and often causes the perpetrator and victim to fall into an escalating pattern where the first horseman reappears with greater and greater frequency and intensity.

The second horseman is contempt. When we communicate in this state, we are truly mean - treating others with disrespect, mocking them with sarcasm, ridicule, name-calling, mimicking, and/or body language such as eye-rolling. The target of contempt is made to feel despised and worthless.

   "You’re ‘tired?' Cry me a river. I've been with the kids all day, running around like mad to keep this house going and all you do when you come home from work is flop down on that sofa like a child and play those idiotic computer games. I don’t have time to deal with another kid - try to be more pathetic…"


In his research, Dr. Gottman found that couples that are contemptuous of each other are more likely to suffer from infectious illness (colds, the flu, etc.) than others, as their immune systems weaken! Contempt is fueled by long-simmering negative thoughts about the partner - which come to a head in the perpetrator attacking the accused from a position of relative superiority. Contempt is the single greatest predictor of divorce according to Dr. Gottman’s work. It must be eliminated!

The third horseman is defensiveness. We’ve all been defensive. This horseman is nearly omnipresent when relationships are on the rocks. When we feel accused unjustly, we fish for excuses so that our partner will back off. Unfortunately, this strategy is almost never successful. Our excuses just tell our partner that we don’t take them seriously, trying to get them to buy something that they don’t believe, that we are blowing them off.

   She: ":)id you call Betty and Ralph to let them know that we’re not coming tonight as you promised this morning?"

   He: "I was just too darn busy today. As a matter of fact you know just how busy my schedule was. Why didn't you just do it?"


He not only responds defensively, but turns the table and makes it her fault. A non-defensive response would have been:

   "Oops, I forgot. I should have asked you this morning to do it because I knew my day would be packed. Let me call them right now."


Although it is perfectly understandable for the male to defend himself in the example given above, this approach doesn’t have the desired effect. The attacking spouse does not back down or apologize. This is because defensiveness is really a way of blaming your partner.

The fourth horseman is stonewalling. Stonewalling occurs when the listener withdraws from the interaction. In other words, stonewalling is when one person shuts down and closes himself/herself off from the other. It is a lack of responsiveness to your partner and the interaction between the two of you.  Rather than confronting the issues (which tend to accumulate!) with our partner, we make evasive maneuvers such as tuning out, turning away, acting busy, or engaging in obsessive behaviors. It takes time for the negativity created by the first three horsemen to become overwhelming enough that stonewalling becomes an understandable "out," but when it does, it frequently becomes a habit.

[maxen]

The first horseman of the apocalypse is criticism. Criticizing your partner is different than offering a critique or voicing a complaint! The latter two are about specific issues, whereas the former is an ad hominem attack: it is an attack on your partner at the core. In effect, you are dismantling his or her whole being when you criticize.

   Complaint: "I was scared when you were running late and didn't call me. I thought we had agreed that we would do that for each other."

   Criticism: "You never think about how your behavior is affecting other people. I don't believe you are that forgetful, you’re just selfish! You never think of others! You never think of me!”

but for my w, there was no difference among criticizing, critiquing, and complaining.

complaint: asking her to "please tidy up this little mess you left on the kitchen counter" (and other things of a similar nature) earned me back loud, endless, circular, exhausting arguments, as if, i now realize, she was being attacked at her core. and i fell right into them. the one thing they didn't earn me was a tidied-up kitchen counter. (she has a particular practice of creating messes (physical, situational, emotional) and wanting others to clean them up. i believe this is her way of feeling cared for.) critique: my comment that her indolence hurt me, because it burdened me with more than my share of the housekeeping and made me feel that she didn't want to be a partner, were met with sullen non-reaction and non-consideration. and yes i did criticize. her thoroughgoing indolence i interpreted as a moral failure, because i didn't think in BPD terms during the marriage (only after did i learn). it damaged the marriage, and why would she do that? didn't we both want to be married to each other? she seems somewhat aware that she has an alcohol problem, a weight problem, a spending problem, a slovenliness problem, a driving problem (she has an honesty problem too but doesn't think that's a problem; her forgetting problem i now wonder may have been deliberate passive-aggressiveness) and either wants others (in this case, me) either to accept - no, embrace - them, or fix them, and has no interest in seeing to them herself. i criticized that. i felt demeaned by it and frankly embarrassed.

[Skip]

I, too, could see how my partner was violating the 4 horsemen worse than me.

But I was still doing it.

And it became a big cycle of conflict.  She feeding off of me. Me feeding off of her.

Gottman says we will feel that we have every right to react this way.

And its true that letting go of our end of a cycle of conflict is not a guarantee repair or a quick fix.

Personally it was hard for me to let these things go and I actually faked it at first. And then I realized it made my life better.

And others, too.

One man's story.  One size doesn't fit all.   

[maxen]

The second horseman is contempt. When we communicate in this state, we are truly mean - treating others with disrespect, mocking them with sarcasm, ridicule, name-calling, mimicking, and/or body language such as eye-rolling. The target of contempt is made to feel despised and worthless.

... .

Contempt is the single greatest predictor of divorce according to Dr. Gottman’s work. It must be eliminated!

i'm guilty. it was the only way left for me to express myself after a point. i can hardly blame her for being hurt by it. i never ridiculed or called her a name or mimicked or used vulgarity, but i did reach exasperation and the effect, whether of my tone or of my volume or of my sarcasm or the look on my face, was one of judgement. this again is because i understood behaviors in moral terms. a person of her years and her intelligence and her accomplishment - what was she saying about me, and about us, by displaying such juvenile emotional desires, ones that turned me into a servant or a checkbook or a laborer? i could not absorb what was right there in front of me: that a person of her years and her intelligence and her accomplishment really was an emotional juvenile. and no amount of my appreciating, or doing for us or her, or forbearance of things that really ground my gears, was enough. (she cried to our therapist because i didn't express enough appreciation for a gift - a surprise, a rare book, which i devoured as soon as i got it. i was just silenced by this. i didn't know what to do.) i felt insulted. i put it down to family/innate arrogance + being raised in an environment with reactionary gender roles. i think both of those things are true, but i also now think they bred a borderline personality.

of course these demonstrations of mine didn't happen often, but she never forgot them. years later she was bringing them up. in one of tami green's videos she talks about all the bad things that happen to her replaying over and over again in her mind, endlessly. i now understand the effect of this.

[Turkish]

The second horseman is contempt. When we communicate in this state, we are truly mean - treating others with disrespect, mocking them with sarcasm, ridicule, name-calling, mimicking, and/or body language such as eye-rolling. The target of contempt is made to feel despised and worthless.

... .

Contempt is the single greatest predictor of divorce according to Dr. Gottman’s work. It must be eliminated!

i'm guilty. it was the only way left for me to express myself after a point. i can hardly blame her for being hurt by it. i never ridiculed or called her a name or mimicked or used vulgarity, but i did reach exasperation and the effect, whether of my tone or of my volume or of my sarcasm or the look on my face, was one of judgement. this again is because i understood behaviors in moral terms. a person of her years and her intelligence and her accomplishment - what was she saying about me, and about us, by displaying such juvenile emotional desires, ones that turned me into a servant or a checkbook or a laborer? i could not absorb what was right there in front of me: that a person of her years and her intelligence and her accomplishment really was an emotional juvenile. and no amount of my appreciating, or doing for us or her, or forbearance of things that really ground my gears, was enough. (she cried to our therapist because i didn't express enough appreciation for a gift - a surprise, a rare book, which i devoured as soon as i got it. i was just silenced by this. i didn't know what to do.) i felt insulted. i put it down to family/innate arrogance + being raised in an environment with reactionary gender roles. i think both of those things are true, but i also now think they bred a borderline personality.

We sound alike in this. She expected certain emotional responses out of me, rather than just accepting I was the way I was. I do have a hard time showing appreciation. I'm a hard person to buy presents for anyway.

of course these demonstrations of mine didn't happen often, but she never forgot them. years later she was bringing them up. in one of tami green's videos she talks about all the bad things that happen to her replaying over and over again in her mind, endlessly. i now understand the effect of this.

Mine repeated a few things with me she outright admitted were triggers for her from her previous bf. I don't know why she expected the results to be different with a different person. I shut down a lot with her. In that, she had a point that I was a bad communicator... . the unsaid remainder of that sentence being, "especially for her." Perhaps waifs, aside from the initial attraction, are ultimately the worst matches for people like us.

[maxsterling]

I must apologize for not having read all responses - but skip - that post caught my eye.  I think that is very true.  I'm definitely guilty of stonewalling, it was probably an issue for me in previous relationships (not just romantic relationships).  I've always been a quiet, self-sufficient person, even as a toddler.  I've lived by myself most of my adult life, am happy by myself, and happy doing my own thing.  My natural reaction to uncomfortable situations is to avoid them and move on so that I can regain the comfort of having control over myself as quickly as possible.   The basic pattern is this:  I'm happy minding my own business, in control of my own fate.  Then, someone comes along to disturb that peace. Remembering that I was happy before, and that I will be happy again once whatever annoyance is gone, I tend to take a path of avoidance from situations that I don't know how to handle.  Part of is may be social anxiety, and  I'm MUCH better in dealing with those situations.  The situations that cause me trouble are abusive situations, when it feels like horsemen #1-3 are trampling me down.  So, in the dynamic of the current relationship, I stonewall when it comes to talking about relationship issues because in the past when those issues have been discussed, it leads to me being criticized, treated with contempt, or she defends and blames me rather than accept responsibility (and let's not forget being hit, having crap thrown at me, screamed at, or threatening suicide).  I stonewall over relationship issues because I fear getting hurt, and the track record is that nothing gets solved in these conversations.

Criticize?  I don't do this - at all.  Although I am tempted at times, but my criticism would ride on the back of the defense horse.  I've "faked" criticism to prove a point.  She used to complain about noises I made when I ate.  I was hurt by this, told her I was hurt by this, and it continued.  So, every time she burped I said, "that's disgusting".  After a month, she finally said, "you are only saying that so that I will quit criticizing you, right?"  Contempt?  After a year of abuse, I can see this one building, and feel sometimes like I am struggling to control this.  But I haven't done this with her, although at times I have felt this, and have chosen other outlets to vent because I know it is not fair to her.  defensiveness?  I'm guilty of a little of this.  When I was younger, defensiveness was a typical response to siblings or parents.   I still feel I have to stop myself from this at times, but I have learned this gets me know where.  With BPDgf, I at times resort to being defensive when she is on my case about something.  I'm working on other ways to get my point across, but it's not easy.

But what is really telling is that I don't have issues with any of these horsemen in any of my other relationships, friends, family, coworkers.  But with the GF, I feel myself wanting to revert back to those childhood behaviors that I thought I had long grown out of.   

[maxen]

The third horseman is defensiveness. We’ve all been defensive. This horseman is nearly omnipresent when relationships are on the rocks. When we feel accused unjustly, we fish for excuses so that our partner will back off. Unfortunately, this strategy is almost never successful. Our excuses just tell our partner that we don’t take them seriously, trying to get them to buy something that they don’t believe, that we are blowing them off.

frankly no. i wasn't defensive. i admitted when i goofed. i've never had a problem dong that. but when i was attacked unjustly i got very hot, and i brought quite a barrage of logical argumentation to bear, a thing she cited as a reason for leaving. i was just so desperate to hear her acknowledge how she contributed to our situation. again, i interpreted it culturally, not BPDically. i saw the dynamic where she's from, where the women are taken to be hormonal and the men say "yes dear." where i'm from, when the women spit the men spit back. my stbxw expected me to agree with everything she said; taken BPDically i believe she felt attacked when i disagreed with her. i'm poor at entertaining signals. english is a remarkably flexible language in which you can say anything you want. accusations of "you use up all the laundry detergent!" when in fact i'm abstemious with it, were taken at face value by me and brought a heated and proven denial instead of "i'm sorry you're upset." i understood though that she wanted me to buy more since she was financially irresponsible and in her mind part of my job as the husband was to make up for that in big ways and small, and i wouldn't do it. she's a big girl and responsible for herself. i set boundaries and it cost us the marriage.