Never Saying Sorry. Why?

[AG]

I've read so much material on BPD that it makes my head spin. One thing that really is pissing me off and running around in my head is the fact that my BPD ex does not say sorry. What the heck is up with that? She has admitted to being destructive and her form of apology was blocking me and saying she was doing it to protect us. Protect us my ass. It seems like more spiteful non sense. She even told me the therapist told her to do that. I call Bullish on that too. Really your therapist who is having you work on not treating people like ish told you to just block a person who sat with your ass in the hospital multiple times and comforted you on situations you've created by your own actions and his solution was not to try to talk about it but to block me? This was of course after she succesfully mind f**** me or should I say I allowed her to gaslight me and convince me I was abusive myself. One talk through text of her saying "What are you going to do about our issue" I replied "I think we both need to be more considerate of each other and take a moment to think before we react". Honestly speaking I really knew damn well that she was the one lashing out like a mad woman all the time but due to the fact of the small handful of times when I exploded back out of defense I said let me take ownership of half of this and actually try to entertain to her theory. This caused her to explode once again. She actually wanted me to take full ownership for her crap. Honestly speaking I would feel a weight lifted off my shoulders if she would apologize instead of running away. DO BPD's even have the capacity to feel remorse? And honestly if they lack the self control to not take a crap on people and try to maliciously harm them then why are they allowed outside? Why are theyre asses not locked away in a padded room. THey are the cancers of society. Dont know about anyone else but my BPD ex now has been exiled from her Salsa community, lost her job, lost alot of friends and is probably down to about 1, and now has lost me. Does any amount of loss cause them to look within? Has anyone ever got a genuine apology? I would love to know

[Tausk]

Hey there AG:

I'm sorry for your frustration and pain.  I understand your post.  We all understand the frustration.  

Mine never apologized for anything.  She cheated on me because it was my fault  

Give it time to understand, but pwBPD don't have the capacity to apologize.  The don't feel guilt or remorse.  They feel shame.  Shame is how one feels about one's self, Guilt is about how one feels about one's actions.  Guilt is a higher order function that is beyond a pwBPD.

Because of the trauma of their childhood, they stop emotionally growing about the age of three.  The capacity for free will over one's actions and the ability for self reflection and correction doesn't occur until about age five or later.

Think about a three year old who steals a cookie.  You might shame her.  You might scare her.  You might make her say she's sorry.  But because she really isn't emotionally developed, she really didn't have a choice about stealing the cookie, and she really doesn't have the capacity for remorse.

And as a result, she can't change either.  And when faced with overwhelming truths and shame, all she can do is paint you evil, forget about you, and shut you out of her life.

Knowing this fact really doesn't help to ease the pain at this moment.  But, it helps me to depersonalize the Disorder and helps to ease the suffering and anger over time. 



Stay on the board.  Share, vent, read .  We understand.  You are not alone.

[arn131arn]

It's the same thing over and over. It's a cycle of chaos and abuse! It's terrible, I know. I never got an apology. And I never got a "Thank you" either.

And the resentments of NOT getting those desired things that are a normal part of healthy relationships fester, and after far too long, they itch at you, and then it becomes so frustrating and lonely that yes, we fight back. Some more healthy than others, but it continues over and over and over again.

Have you ever seen the movie Goodfellas?

I love that movie. Bought the Scorcese box DVD set with all the bells and whistles. I had already seen it, but the night I bought it, I made the biggest bowl of spaghetti and meatballs ever, turned the lights out, and watched it. It didn't matter how many extended scenes and additional takes the movie had on it- it STILL ended the same way as it did before... .

He rats!

What I'm trying to say is if you put a tuxedo on a pig, you still got a pig!

[Tolou]

APOLOGY?

How someone apologize to me if they see no fault in their action?

How can they apologize if they are always the victim?

How can they apologize without the ability to empathize?

Apologizing is admitting there is a fault, or their at fault, that can't be possible with distorted conginitions?

How can they apologize if they truely begin to believe their own distortions>?

Apologize, = shame for them and guilt, and if you are lucky to get an apology it is because most likely they seek a benefit from it, it isn't sincere, why?  Because mine was unable to realize the damage she did to my reputation at work, among people who repected me, but with time again do because you can see she is disturbed in some way... . She can't apologixe to me for the multiple times I witnessed her attempt suicide, because "it my fault", "if you loved me"... . She can't apologize for the pain I went through when she told me she had been diagnosed with stage 3 cancer, only to find out months later, all a lie.  She can't apologize, because it won't mean anything to me, because it means nothing to her.  A true apology can come from taking the time to dig deep within ones self, thru a theraputic realtionship, and trying to repair the some of the damage you have done... . And accepting that even with that apology, some may still not want to have anything to do with them.  I don't want an apology anymore, I was thought I deserved one, but when I thought about, she has to suffer with this for the rest of her life, she lost me, I walked away... . for my health and hopefully for her to get the help I could not give to that lost child inside her... . That I beleive is a form of empathy, she could never see that... Because I am just a mean, heartless, evil person who used her= "YOU DIDNT PLAY BY MY RULES... . Thats why I think mines never said sorry... .

[guitargrl]

yeah this part really sucks.  Mine could never say sorry either. He would be so damn emotionally and verbally abusive over nothing….the way the wind was blowing perhaps and the only way…I mean the only way to get him out of his rages were if I would apologize for something, it did not have to be specific he didn't care…I would just have to say "I am sorry I caused you to be angry". Most of the time that was all I could say because I truly had no idea why he was raging.  He would slowly start to come back into reality.  slowly.  He could never say sorry. He was raging because my fault, he was silent... my fault, he was depressed…my fault.  Mine was very narcissistic as well and at times seemed to think he was GOD. Wow…thanks for bringing this up. I felt like I was on a roller coaster of insanity and I just had a big boost of "I don't want to get back on that" So thanks!

[seeking balance]

Apologizing requires a strong sense of self and the ability to regulate guilt/shame.

PwBPD do not possess either of these traits in a consistent manner based on the disorder.  Things that we may feel guilt for, they feel intense shame - painful shame... . emotions are in extremes - all good or all bad.

The maladaptive coping to this pain may look like projection, cutting, cheating, suicide attempts, dissociation, drug abuse - it is those behaviors to soothing the shame that we nons also complain about here.

For the record, I have met plenty of NONS who are not that great at apologizing.

Yes, it is very frustrating and in my relationship it was a thing I complained about.   Learning the facts of the disorder and letting go of blame - I am able to detach and heal.

Peace,

SB

[rougeetnoir]

This is/was a particularly difficult one for me, too with my uBPDex.  The three year-old analogy helps me to understand it somewhat-- except when you compare it to the way that she was relatively high functioning in the other areas of her life... . It trips you up-- why couldn't she be high functioning with me?  Of course, I know it was because it is an emotional disorder, but a big part of this process is the difference between "knowing" and knowing (or knowing and accepting).

The apology situation is also difficult for me now because it was met with all sorts of projecting on her part-- my apologies were simply "telling her what she wanted to hear."  And if I screwed up (didn't clean as well as I should have), I must not have really apologized. It is still part of the lingering fog.

Finally, it played a direct role in our final breakup.  She had put her hands around my throat and I left.  When I called to talk to her, there was no apology, nothing but standard abuser tricks ("you made me do it" or "it wasn't so bad".  This (along with the blaming of me) went on and on. I was willing to figure things out with her if she would just admit her mistake and seek help.  She wouldn't (probably because for the first time, I didn't come back right away and I had told people-- including her friends who had reached out to me-- about the abuse). Finally, I realized and said something to her my father said to me when I was a headstrong teenager, "You f*ed up so bad that you don't want to accept it, so you are angry at everyone else."  I softened it a bit when I said it to her, but that was the gist of the quote. I've thought about that a lot.

[Turkish]

For the record, I have met plenty of NONS who are not that great at apologizing.

One of the last times I did a bad apology, the opposite in fact, was when ants got into the kids' room. It was something random (not from food or anything), and I cleaned them up and got them out with some home remedy. The next day, they were back in force. This triggered her (they were going to eat the baby, probably, in her mind), but she 100% blamed me as The Man of the house and I was supposed to take care of it with a magic wand. She yelled at me and demanded an apology. I said, "who are YOU that I should apologize to YOU!" Not a good thing to say. I devalued her instead of addressing the situation, or exploring the core reason why she was upset (paranoia, anxiety, maybe a no-win... . ).

Later, of course, when I asked for an apology in a totally unrelated incident where she accused me of losing something she later found she had misplaced, she threw that exact phrase back in my face. So in this, our communication was poor on both sides.

[blue_skies_ahead]

   I never got one either for anything unless the situation was one that was dire, but I don't think he meant those apologies as they were likely justified in his head as a white lie necessary for self.

I was, in fact, told after a huge fight that love meant Never having to say your sorry.   My jaw dropped.   I said WHAT?  That's an instance where you definately want to say you're sorry. 

Think about it ... . No conscience + no remorse + no empathy = no regrets to be sorry for.

IMHO the only person I ever saw him feel sorry for was himself and when he was feeling VERY insecure and sorry for himself, he'd refer to himself in 3rd person.   

Warning Will Robinson!  Danger!  Danger!  Pwahaha... .

Gotta laugh or you'd cry, right?

[seeking balance]

Think about it ... . No conscience + no remorse + no empathy = no regrets to be sorry for.

Blue Skies, I can appreciate you may feel this way about pwBPD - but the facts of the disorder are not aligned with what you have written here. 

I believe you feel this is true based on being hurt and your own experience - in fact pwBPD can have a very deep sense of empathy, remorse looks like deep shame and the pain is so intense that the brain itself has rewired coping skills.

I found it helpful to depersonalize the events & detach when I understood the facts of the disorder.  With facts, I can process feelings based in truth and not jaded from being in a FOG.

[blue_skies_ahead]

You are probably right about FOG, however, not all BPDs are just that dx.   Some have Narc traits or Bipolar or both.  I personally say the things I say about my ex having no visible/discernable remorse or empathy for me as his target based on my experiences.   For instance, I had to have my appendix removed and was laid up in the hospital.  As I was lying there in major discomfort trying to rest, exBPD keeps hounding me about being bored (read a book - go see a movie) hungry (get food), hates hospitals (I'm on vacation here ... . NOT),  he's uncomfortable (go back to the hotel to lie down/shower), etc etc etc.  I wasn't able to give him what he needed in that moment, he may have even had triggers of  abandonment because I was having a health crises (but basically this boils down to empathy fire himself, not me).  Long story short, it became an  arguement after I mentioned how selfish he was behaving while I was trying to recover (he wasn't hearing that) so he finally leaves to a movie just as I go into  tachycardia from the stress and upset.  They wheel me down for tests to make sure I don't have a pulmonary embolism which takes hours.  He's already in the room when I'm wheeled back and I explain what happened and he seems not to care at all and continues eating his fast food.  Empathy, in other situations, when he would display it, would never last long at all.  So I guess I'm agreeing with you and disagreeing based on my own experience. Empathy was fully functional when it came to himself but for people from whom he had nothing to gain?  Not so much.

[blue_skies_ahead]

You are right though ... . detachment would help me to begin getting over the endless stream of hurts I allowed.   Thanks for the suggestion!  :-)

[seeking balance]

 Some have Narc traits or Bipolar or both. 

This honestly is a true statement - I agree with you here.

 For instance, I had to have my appendix removed and was laid up in the hospital.  As I was lying there in major discomfort trying to rest, exBPD keeps hounding me about being bored (read a book - go see a movie) hungry (get food), hates hospitals (I'm on vacation here ... . NOT),  he's uncomfortable (go back to the hotel to lie down/shower), etc etc etc.  I wasn't able to give him what he needed in that moment, he may have even had triggers of  abandonment because I was having a health crises (but basically this boils down to empathy fire himself, not me).  Long story short, it became an  arguement after I mentioned how selfish he was behaving while I was trying to recover (he wasn't hearing that) so he finally leaves to a movie just as I go into  tachycardia from the stress and upset.  They wheel me down for tests to make sure I don't have a pulmonary embolism which takes hours.  He's already in the room when I'm wheeled back and I explain what happened and he seems not to care at all and continues eating his fast food.  Empathy, in other situations, when he would display it, would never last long at all.  So I guess I'm agreeing with you and disagreeing based on my own experience. Empathy was fully functional when it came to himself but for people from whom he had nothing to gain?  Not so much.

I can see how you could see it this way in your story - and when we are so personally affected it really is hard to break away enough to see it from a very high level of cause/effect.

Most NONS here, when we get here - we are simply raw... . we are not even capable of eating and sleeping sometimes.  I use this example for a reason because I think this is the closest we get to a pwBPD living their emotional lives every day... . they are always raw.

We assume pwBPD handle stress like us - they just don't.  In your example, using BPD as the baseline - His abandoning you in a time of need was self survival  for him - he was not CAPABLE of being there for you because his buttons were so pushed.  Fight/flight response - instinctual, the way his brain is wired - it is not due to a lack of empathy it is a result of a mental illness.  And based on the thread topic of apology - his own shame and lack of self prevents him from even seeing there is a need to apologize - projection or dissociation by his own brain may be at play in this scenario as a survival tool.

I remember when I first came here - it took me a long time to accept the disorder as a fact, accept some of the behaviors as a fact of the disorder... . but realize, I don't have to live like that.  Radical Acceptance is a process and a balance of facts and feeling our emotions.

Thanks for sharing your story - you have a lot of topics in this post- maybe a good time to start your own thread as to not hijack this one 

[Lucky Jim]

Agree.  In my view, pwBPD are largely incapable of apologizing, because to apologize would be to admit wrongdoing, so-to-speak, which is incompatible with their victim mentality as well as their black and white thinking.  So it doesn't happen.  Only apologies I ever heard from my BPDxW were insincere and given grudgingly only after I insisted.  LuckyJim

[myself]

Apologizing means the person apologizing lets the light of truth inside, and is then able to share it with the person who has been wronged. PwBPD have too many shifting walls of blame-deflection for this to happen. We become mirrors that can't be looked into. Have you ever apologized to your mirror?

[barbwire911]

Yeah my exbfwBPD would lash out at me for the oddest things. And sometimes he would be fine and then he would lash out a few hours later, change the whole story and it made no sense and he would rage and rage.  It was awful.  Our boss once called him in the office to just check on how he was doing as he was going through his divorce and our boss was just trying to see if he was OK to be at work, etc. Well my exBPD was fine coming out of the meeting and he seemed ok when we left work.  Then three hours later he just started raging at me on text saying he acted fine before as he needed time to "digest" and was in shock.  I asked him about what.

He then proceeded to tell me how he was in shock because once he processed "the meaning of the meeting" he decided that my friends and I had colluded with our boss and told our management team all about our relationship (my exBPD was a very private person) and now he felt embarrassed as he felt our boss "alluded" to details about our relationship.  Yet when I asked him for the details he would not tell me and kept trying to make me admit things  I had never heard of and he would say "you tell me what the details are." That fight went on for 2 days straight and I was a mess and then I tried to talk to him at work and he tried to file a harassment complaint against me for 2 phone calls!  It did not fly but now it is silent treatment for a week now. I sent him a closure email that we just need to avoid each other. Nothing yet at all but I was told he was also in replacement mode of me already (unbeknownst by me) so whatever.  I am in therapy dealing with why I chose this man and my FOO issues make total sense.

But yeah I had to apologize for the stupidest things but this recent time I fought back and it got me nowhere either.  The only time mine apologized was when he thought there was something in it. Like when he came back after a 3 month silent treatment for a recycle and we got close again, he said everything nice. He said he was sorry for being so angry and realized he had issues, etc. and that his ex wife had been causing him stress and he was not angry at me but took it out on me wrongly... . LA DEE DHA. I believed it and low and behold. Less than two months later, here I am again in silent treatment.

[restoredsight]

My first break up with my wife I cracked through somehow, just for a moment, and heard a heart-rending apology. "I'm so sorry! I can't trust my feelings! I'm selfish and I'm fickle, and it's the worst thing in the world!" It broke my heart.

Less than an hour later, she tells her sister, "He made me apologize."

Recently, I told her I missed her, she replied with this hollow sounding "Sorry" that makes me want to scream because it sounds nothing like the person I've known for 5 years.

[Tausk]

Yes agreed, our exes never really apologized.  It's an agreement.  And it sucks.  And as SB stated it takes a deep sense of self to apologize. 

How often have you said, "I'm sorry I got mad, but I was tired."

This is not an apology.  It is an excuse.  And apology requires the ability to take responsibility for ones actions and to acknowledge transgressions.  A deeper form of an apology is an amend, which adds the dimension of deeply deciding not to repeat the transgression, and to "mend" the transgression, such as with reparations.

How many here have consistently practiced the concept of amends for their transactions?  And we are supposed to be the sane ones. 

Very simply, the patterns are so clear.  We all have the exes who fit on the spectrum of BPD.  And pwBPD, especially under duress, such as a fight with the primary partner, lack the CAPACITY to take responsibility for their actions. It not that they won't, it's that they can't.  They lack the free will of decisions.  Apologies are a higher order function that is simply beyond most pwBPD.  I can't say my ex has BPD, and also say but she deliberately withheld apologies from me.  It's like saying my ex has Down's Syndrome and deliberately wouldn't balance the checkbook for us.

Depersonalize.  It wasn't about you or the actions of your ex directed at you.  It was the Disorder.

And if anyone needs to apologize, it's me to my ex.  I was the supposed sane one.  I should never have gotten into an sexual and intense interaction with someone so Disordered.  How do you feel about someone who has sex with a person with Down's Syndrome or Autism.   Well, this is just another Disorder.

Every time that I participated in the interaction, brought more destruction.  Every time I accepted a transgression without receiving an adequate apology brought more destruction.  Every time I recycled despite knowing in my mind and deep in my heart that it was wrong brought more destruction... .   And I didn't stop it because I was to ashamed and scared to stop, even though I knew the only outcome would be more and more destruction.

I need to apologize for the above actions.

I was the "sane" one. I was the caretaker.  I'm the one who's been idealized and is on a narcissistic pedestal.   So I should be the one who apologizes to her.   Just as if I assaulted a girl with Down's Syndrome.  I had no business even exchanging phone numbers with my ex.  But I did because of my shortcomings.

Her leaving and cheating, was a gift to me, because I can depersonalize, detach and recover and learn about myself and my FOO issues.  All I did for her was put her deeper into her Disorder.  Maybe if I had been strong enough to stay away she would have found someone who could have helped her.  Or maybe she would have stayed by herself and found recovery.  I was just another excuse for her not to get better.  And instead, because I was too f'ked up to say no,  she's even more F'ked Up.   And I am in part responsible.  And I should apologize.

But now I can't even apologize or make direct amends because it would only harm her even more.  I allowed myself to participate in an interaction with a severely Disordered person.  And I participated to the point where any additional contact between us of any sort just adds to the destruction.  I am responsible for allowing it to get to this point. 

But I understand how hard it is for everyone on the board.  Especially without knowledge of the Disorder.  It is good to vent, and then depersonalize and understand.  My ex and I took lessons in how to apologize in a certain manner.  She never was able to grasp the concept.  At the time I took it for defiance and spite.  But now I understand it was simply beyond her and just brought her more shame, pressure, and farther away from ever being able to communicate honestly with me.

Sadness.

[rougeetnoir]

I've been thinking about this topic for a while, why does this particular trait bother me so much?  Why does it bother us so much?  As was said by SB, lots of nons don't apologize.

And I think there are several reasons-- the first deals with my own desire for rules and order to protect myself from my own issues (depression, namely).  That is, if I can make sense of it intellectually, I don't have to "feel" it.  She screwed up, she should apologize.  That's the rule. If that happens, I wouldn't have to deal with the ways that her actions made me hurt.

Second, relates to the oldest of therapeutic clichés-- I need to forgive myself.  At the end, the big arguments/yelling dealt with how I was "the worst person ever" or "worst person she's ever lived with"  and because of my own self-loathing, I always felt there was a bit of truth to these statements (which I would treat by analyzing the other things she yelled at me-- the one's with a little bit of truth in them-- "cleanliness" or not "helping enough" or whatever).  So, in looking towards me, I've realized that my need for forgiveness from her deals with my inability to accept who I am.  My failings.  The fact that I am not perfect.

Do others feel this way? 

[seeking balance]

 

Such a great post to refocus on us - thank you so much!

That is, if I can make sense of it intellectually, I don't have to "feel" it.  She screwed up, she should apologize.  That's the rule. If that happens, I wouldn't have to deal with the ways that her actions made me hurt.

Do others feel this way? 

I cannot tell you how many times intellect has been used by me to avoid feeling bad or making a difficult decision.  Rules give order - order gives the illusion of control - with control, pain is reduced... . at least that was what I thought. 

Not sure if you have read Gifts of Imperfection by Brene' Brown - but, perfection can also be a mask to avoid pain.

For those looking to have a deeper understanding of self, check out 5 Apology Languages by Gary Chapman - same person who wrote the 5 Love Languages.

[rougeetnoir]

Thanks for the book suggestions and kind words about my post... . I will check them out... .

Of course, one of the difficult things about dealing with BPD-- particularly for those of us with this intellectualizing trait-- is that those moments when we do express hurt (and I've worked hard to do this after I returned to getting treatment for depression about 5 years ago) are dismissed as well through gaslighting, denial, etc.  It ends up reinforcing this coping mechanism... .

A lot of earlier therapeutic work can be undone by this relationship-- hence the anger and rumination I'm (and a lot of us, it seems) still dealing with.

[dangler321]

For the first month when I started dating my soon to be ex uBPD wife, all she would do was apologize and say sorry for literally doing nothing at all, almost every sentence ended in a 'sorry'. I knew nothing of BPD at the time and it was one of the first things I noticed to be a little odd about her . I eventually managed to get her to stop apologizing for nothing. Since then and over our 4 year r/s I don't recall her apologizing once. She never apologised for breaking up with me and walking out 3 times for no good reason or for cheating on me numerous times. She'd never take responsibility for any wrong doing at all, always blaming it on someone else, me or would use the excuse that her dyslexia or dyspraxia was to blame (recently discovered she has never even been diagnosed with dyspraxia).