Is disagreement at its core invalidating?

[HopefulDad]

As every marriage counselor... . heck, every married person... . will tell you, you and your SO are not going to agree on everything.  Sure, you can compromise, concede and find other solutions, but while doing all of this you may also simply agree to disagree.

But is disagreement at its core invalidating?  You are essentially telling the other person, "No, I do not see things your way."  You can sugarcoat it all you want, but isn't that what it boils down to?  Marriage counselors work with nons on this issue a lot, so clearly it is something people in relationships in general can struggle with.  But throw BPD into the mix... .

I can validate my BPDw's feelings all the time, but I'm not going to validate her thoughts and judgments if I disagree with them.  I can SET, but the T part, "Truth", can still trigger her since her truth and everybody else's truth don't sync.

If disagreement = invalidation to some degree, the nons in our pwBPDs' lives are always going to find ways to trigger them simply due to the fact we're not always going to agree on everything.  And it seems that the more opportunity to have disagreements, the more strained the relationship:

- SO is the at the center

- Children are the next layer out

- Parents/siblings are next, perhaps a boss at work as well

- Close friends or perhaps close coworkers are next

- Casual friends and colleagues after that

Do most people here see the same relationship/conflict patterns, where the opportunity to disagree ties closely with who is painted black?

BTW, this might be a bunch of ":)uh!" to a lot of you, but I've been thinking about it lately.

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[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I'm still not very good at validation.  I can usually say "I understand how you feel and I'm sorry you feel that way." 

If I'm good and not engaging I'll say the above a couple times and then my uBPDw will come back with "But there must be a reason I feel this way".  When I'm good I acknowledge "Yes, but it doesn't have anything to do with anything I've done".  When I'm bad I point out "it's because you make things up and don't listen".

Validation seems to work and defuse things short term... . but long term I think she sees it for what it is, a way to avoid conflict by not acknowledging our disagreements.

[an0ught]

Hi HopefulDad,

pwBPD can be highly sensitive. Also they often lack stable sense of self and with it a good sense of boundaries. All these factors combine somehow and makes it easy to trigger them when we make statements about ourselves. When there is no clear sense of where one ends and the other begins it is somehow not surprising.

Not much we can do. What helps a little may be:

- use SET to make sure that information is not highly emotional and reaches them when they are on level and are able to process it.

- working on boundaries on our side. A little bit more distance in the relationship can help.

- consistent focus on my stuff - your stuff.

BTW, this might be a bunch of ":)uh!" to a lot of you, but I've been thinking about it lately.

It is definitely not a Duh topic and related to the structure of your relationship. I started this thread back in 2010 after a year on the site based on similar observations: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.0

[yeeter]

An interesting question Dad.

In the practical sense, I can definitely see where not agreeing would be felt as invalidating by a BPD. 

My wife is uNPD/uBPD as a combo, and she likes to be the ultimate authority on just about everything.  If I disagree or offer a different perspective it will instantly turn into a debate on all the reasons why she is 'right'.  This sense of being 'right', and having one correct answer to everything is I think, a way for her to manage and deal with the world.  The ambiguous stuff would be overwhelming (no clear answers to adapt behavior around).  The religious element helps in this was as well.

Part of the balance that has to be developed is knowing our self well enough (and having other healthy relationships to demonstrate) that ok, I genuinely did listen and gave her thoughts consideration and nope, I still dont see it the same way and yep, Im ok with that and indeed, she is going to have to learn to be ok with that as well.

Its much easier if no children involved, because parenting together requires a careful synchronization for normal relationships, let alone with a BPD.

I dont think of validation as avoidance though.  Its simply an acknowledgement of her feelings.  Which to be honest none of us can truly appreciate just how intense they might be.  But her feelings are her feelings, and although I can be sympathetic to what she is going through, I dont have to own them as my feelings.

[HopefulDad]

An interesting question Dad.

In the practical sense, I can definitely see where not agreeing would be felt as invalidating by a BPD. 

My wife is uNPD/uBPD as a combo, and she likes to be the ultimate authority on just about everything.  If I disagree or offer a different perspective it will instantly turn into a debate on all the reasons why she is 'right'.  This sense of being 'right', and having one correct answer to everything is I think, a way for her to manage and deal with the world.  The ambiguous stuff would be overwhelming (no clear answers to adapt behavior around).  The religious element helps in this was as well.

Part of the balance that has to be developed is knowing our self well enough (and having other healthy relationships to demonstrate) that ok, I genuinely did listen and gave her thoughts consideration and nope, I still dont see it the same way and yep, Im ok with that and indeed, she is going to have to learn to be ok with that as well.

I think the bolded is at the root of the uphill battle we all face.  Her mind is wired to equate feelings with thoughts.  So while you may validate her feelings, your disagreement with her thoughts ends up being a disagreement with her feelings in her mind.  Unless she is self-aware of this incorrect link of feelings = thoughts, she will not learn to be okay with disagreement.  And no amount of SET is going to undo that.

[HopefulDad]

Hi HopefulDad,

pwBPD can be highly sensitive. Also they often lack stable sense of self and with it a good sense of boundaries. All these factors combine somehow and makes it easy to trigger them when we make statements about ourselves. When there is no clear sense of where one ends and the other begins it is somehow not surprising.

Not much we can do. What helps a little may be:

- use SET to make sure that information is not highly emotional and reaches them when they are on level and are able to process it.

- working on boundaries on our side. A little bit more distance in the relationship can help.

- consistent focus on my stuff - your stuff.

BTW, this might be a bunch of ":)uh!" to a lot of you, but I've been thinking about it lately.

It is definitely not a Duh topic and related to the structure of your relationship. I started this thread back in 2010 after a year on the site based on similar observations: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.0

This is good.  If I'm an extension of my BPDw in her sense of self, of course disagreement is going to rock her world.  And I agree that there's not much we can do other than what you outlined.

[an0ught]

It can help a lot when we understand deeper what we are dealing with and what is our part in it. We can better steer what we do when we act. In the end however we always will be left with feet to walk, hands to handle and a voice to speak. The good news is that this is all men has needed to get to the moon  

[Bee Girl]

Thank you for this thought, and it makes sense to me. When I was puzzling through various scenarios that triggered my boyfriend, one common thread for the worst of them was that I "sided" with someone else, and in essence disagreed with him. So there was the perception of invalidation and betrayal, which really kicks things off.

The thing is, what I was usually doing was just trying to stop him from overreacting to something in the first place (a rude waiter, a bad driver, etc.) and keep the peace, but it would backfire mightily.

It helps to break it down to its core. thanks.

[GopherAgent]

Bee Girl... .

I've had similar experiences as well. Simply sharing an "opinion" with my wife about something one of my kids may have said often is THE trigger for her dis-regulation and rages. I've had to become keenly aware that what I share with her regarding the conversations I have with my kids. If I share something where she senses that she is being "judged" or criticized (even though I'm not doing that) then her world explodes. So, it has gotten to a point for me where I don't say anything about the kids (or much of anything else) and keep my thoughts to myself. What this does of course, is limit the amount of communication that goes on between us.

So, when you find, Bee Girl, that these things trigger the episodes, then you hold back and share less... . and less... . and less. Of course, that too is noticed at some point and then the accusations start about how you are hiding things and are keeping secrets. Well, yea! If I can't freely share events and feelings with you, then surely I don't feel safe enough to bare my soul to you just so you can crap on it again.

And then when they realize that something has occurred that triggered these reactions in them and they realize that you didn't make them aware of it even though you knew about it... . then you get accused of taking sides and not getting their back when they needed you support and not putting the accuser in their position and loving the other person more than you love them... . and... . well... . you know the story. I know you do!

Ever watch a dog chase his own tail? Sometimes it really not that funny.

Yea, Bee Girl... . I know your frustration and sadness. It's not a good thing... . but then we must cope with it some how. Now that I know the game that goes on here, I am less anxious to fix it any more as I now know that I can't ever fix it.

I'm still in the recovery mode... . if you will... . as I now am aware of the staggering wall of stubbornness I must look at everyday.

Luckily for me... . my ah-ha moments have helped me put a realistic and progressive perspective on this ugliness so I can sanely deal with it and take care of myself so I can move forward with some form of clarity and freedom.

You can too, Bee Girl. BEE free and fly away to freedom and sanity.

Good luck... . GopherAgent

[bpbreakout]

Interesting title on this thread, if you turn the question round the other way then you have to ask yourself whether being required to agree with someone is also at it's core invalidating

[Chosen]

Hi HopefulDad 

From my experience, in short, disagreeing with anything the pwBPD says is invalidating to them.  Because they see the world in black/ white.  ("If you don't agree me with, then you're saying I'm wrong." white = right and black = wrong)

I suppose SET may still trigger them sometimes, it certainly does for me, but I have to say it helps a little.  If I keep following the pattern rather than getting cornered to defend my "truth", then my pwBPD may still not like it but may eventually leave it at that. 

I have also come to accept that a lot of times our pwBPDs will be unhappy no matter what we say.  There is no magic sentence that will completely defuse the situation (even if you completely agree with them!).  We can just let them know that sometimse we don't agree, and it's ok, and we use SET to convey the message to them.

[yeeter]

The thing is, what I was usually doing was just trying to stop him from overreacting to something in the first place (a rude waiter, a bad driver, etc.) and keep the peace, but it would backfire mightily.

And really this is just us once again trying to exert some control over another person.  ('to keep peace'.  Yep, been there a lot.

But in a way it simply reinforces.  My wife has had people doing things for her her entire life, for fear that she would get upset at them.

I shifted this approach, and no longer care if she gets upset (it was going to happen anyway).  And no longer own the responsibility to 'fix it'.

At the same time she is genuinely upset, and has feelings of being wronged, slighted, disrespected, etc etc ... . whatever they may be which are all real TO HER.  

At the most these days if she asks my view (indirectly wanting me to come to her rescue and support her position/feelings) I will simply say 'it wouldnt be that big of a deal to me, but Im not you so its not for me to say how you feel'.  I tend to stand back and not get engaged with her drama, and just leave the situation all together if possible and move on.

[Perez]

I categorize our disagreements between myself and my wife  into three main types:

1) Substantive - We disagree on an issue that we need to make a joint decision, or one of us makes a solo decision with which the other disagrees

2) You are a terrible spouse disagreements - Almost always initiated by my wife

3) Feelings disagreement - I am hurting and you do not care

All of these often lead to dysregulation.

To take these in reverse order.  The feelings disagreement is where I have learned the most how to validate and lessen the chances of dysregulation.  I try to put myself in her thought process and try to be empathetic.  It works best with someone who is not directly connected to me such as a waiter, teacher, etc.  It is of little cost to simply try to be empathetic and not try to over analyze the situation.  "Sure, it must be difficult to feel talked down to by the teacher".  This approach is much harder when the "offending party" is someone close such as one of our parents or children.  In these situations I try to validate but then reason with her. 

The you are a terrible spouse disagreements is where I have put up my strongest boundaries.  I have simply told her that after 25 years, I simply will not engage in those discussions any more, that I disagree with her assessment of me and will not discuss.  Her reaction has been to completely shut down the marriage.  So I guess it has led to one long dysregulation but at least this issue is no longer discussed.

Living and raising kids together we have many substantive disagreements, as would many couples.  My wife always wants her way, so these are never easy.  I am trying to be less invalidating in talking her and to carefully pick my battles.  I have to really ask myself how important the issue is.  Any discussion, no matter how logical can lead to dysregulation if not carefully managed.

[waverider]

validation of feelings- avoidance - validation of behavior. These are all close neighbours. The problem we have is deciding where the fence line is. So we end up sitting on the fence and confusing everyone as to where we really are.

Avoiding BPD 'episodes" is sometimes impossible. The emotional episode is often just a need, and the need finds an issue through which to vent itself. The more we try to hang on to methods to avoid it the more we get dragged allover these fence lines. This causes a lack of consistent and stability within ourselves. Destabalizing the situation even more and preventing precedents from being set, as no one is quite sure where our fence lines are.

After validating that you hear what they say, learn to state your view on things as you see it and how it effects you, if you deem the issue worthy of involvement. Dont try to sell your opinion to a pwBPD, they can hear it and either take it on board or not. Then drop it. This will set a precedent and they will just have to get used to it. The more you add, the more fuel you add to the smoke screen they can blow around the issue.

Consistency and clarity is what you are aiming for.

It is important to listen to what they say though, as amongst all that smoke there are often quite astute observations, even if the interpretations may be skewed.

[waverider]

- SO is the at the center

- Children are the next layer out

- Parents/siblings are next, perhaps a boss at work as well

- Close friends or perhaps close coworkers are next

- Casual friends and colleagues after that

- Strangers they may have to deal with (shop assistants/receptionists etc)

- General public

I like this layering, I added 2 more, it is almost like a grading of functionality. High functioning is restricted to level 1 and 2, low function can transgress all 7 layers, and hence effects ability to have any network of friends or hold down a job. My partner transgresses first 5 and at times struggles with the 6th,

[HopefulDad]

- SO is the at the center

- Children are the next layer out

- Parents/siblings are next, perhaps a boss at work as well

- Close friends or perhaps close coworkers are next

- Casual friends and colleagues after that

- Strangers they may have to deal with (shop assistants/receptionists etc)

- General public

I like this layering, I added 2 more, it is almost like a grading of functionality. High functioning is restricted to level 1 and 2, low function can transgress all 7 layers, and hence effects ability to have any network of friends or hold down a job. My partner transgresses first 5 and at times struggles with the 6th,

I consider my BPDw high functioning, but she transgresses well into 3 regularly (usually with silent treatment/avoidance) and can rant and rave to me about 4-6.  Back around 2000 we had a waitress who was clearly hurried and may have crossed into being rude, but the latter was open to interpretation.  For about 8 years, every time we would drive by that restaurant my wife would always have to say, "Hey, there's the place with the (female dog) waitress!"  Every.  Single.  Time.  Let it go, for Pete's sake.

[an0ught]

BPD is highly complex and situational. I find it reassuring that there are some basic principles that help us thinking through a lot of different situations

- invalidation

- boundaries

- attachment

- abandonment

- dysregulation

- emotional regulation

If I'm confronted with a situation and I use these concepts I gain some understanding that helps me plotting a course.

Introducing new concepts is fraught with risks. We are not neutral observers. Our sample size is small. It is self selecting too. It is easy to leave the firm ground here.

- SO is the at the center

- Children are the next layer out

- Parents/siblings are next, perhaps a boss at work as well

- Close friends or perhaps close coworkers are next

- Casual friends and colleagues after that

I find it however difficult to generalize that. How close are children compared to SO? How close is the mother? Where do best friends belong? I guess the momentary situation as well as the upbringing will play a role. There will be different answers for all of us and for all of our partners. It may be worth thinking this through for ourselves and for our SO, specifically I believe there is value in contemplating how

- deep anyone is attached and how (stability of the link)

- close someone is to someone else (information flowing by itself)

- whether that closeness is love or hate and  (we know that well)

- whether healthy boundaries exist. (limiting unhealthy exchanges)

These are a few key parameters and there are certainly more. Closeness and lack of boundaries together with sensitivity are certainly factors that determine impact of invalidation.

[Hope26]

Waverider, I thought you made a very sharp observation in terms of that layering of relationships being correlated with the BPD's level of functioning.  After coming to this board and reading other material on the subject, I realized that my husband is high-functioning because I am the only one who really sees the behavior.  Also, his behavior is not as consistently intolerable as that of others described on this board.  On the other hand, I know another individual who finds it impossible to maintain friendships or retain jobs, due to 'episodes' involving the most casual of acquaintances.  It is apparent to me now that she is a low-functioning pwBPD; whether diagnosed or not I don't know.  I do know that everyone she knows considers her to be mentally ill.  Before studying BPD, it was not obvious to me what her problem was.  It is too bad this illness isn't more widely understood, so more people could hopefully be helped.