Relationship Stages - what can we learn?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello Leaving Board,  

From each of the stories I have read here this seems to be the typical pattern of what occurs in a BPD relationship as I see it.

Agree?

Disagree?

Agree to Disagree?

Non-Male meets BPD-Female {9 Stages}

-She immediately thinks he's a knight in shinning armor

-She clings

-He commits to her after she mirrors him and his needs

-She finds some fault with him

-He becomes viewed similar to dog feces in her mind due to that fault that she has observed

-She tries to overlook this fault though

-Months later she now views him as similar to a pile of elephant feces due to more perceived faults in him

-She now tells him he is no good and he is the devil and not a man

-She leaves him to find a new knight

*Common variation to this is that she will during the dog feces phase begin to cheat on him and then will amp up the cheating even more during the elephant feces phase

*Another variation she will cheat during the whole relationship regardless of anything


Non-Female Meets BPD Male {8 Stages}

-He acts like a knight in shinning armor and presents himself as God's gift to women

-He treats the woman good for the first week or so then grows tired and starts acting like a jerk

-He makes the woman feel like she can be tossed away at any moment so she  can't relax

-He then begins to view her similar to dog feces through his eyes

-He tries to overlook her flaws though

-Months later he now views her as similar to a pile of elephant feces due to more perceived faults in her

-He calls her nasty names and is all around hateful toward her

-He leaves her to search for his real queen that will adore him as he deserves

*Common variation to this is that he will during the dog feces phase begin to cheat on her and then will amp up the cheating even more during the elephant feces phase.

*Another variation he will cheat during the whole relationship regardless of anything.

Peace,

AO

[AwakenedOne]

Hello Leaving Board,  

From each of the stories I have read here this seems to be the typical pattern of what occurs in a BPD relationship as I see it.

Agree?

Disagree?

Agree to Disagree?

Non-Male meets BPD-Female {9 Stages}

-She immediately thinks he's a knight in shinning armor

-She clings

-He commits to her after she mirrors him and his needs

-She finds some fault with him

-He becomes viewed similar to dog feces in her mind due to that fault that she has observed

-She tries to overlook this fault though

-Months later she now views him as similar to a pile of elephant feces due to more perceived faults in him

-She now tells him he is no good and he is the devil and not a man

-She leaves him to find a new knight

*Common variation to this is that she will during the dog feces phase begin to cheat on him and then will amp up the cheating even more during the elephant feces phase

*Another variation she will cheat during the whole relationship regardless of anything


Non-Female Meets BPD Male {8 Stages}

-He acts like a knight in shinning armor and presents himself as God's gift to women

-He treats the woman good for the first week or so then grows tired and starts acting like a jerk

-He makes the woman feel like she can be tossed away at any moment so she  can't relax

-He then begins to view her similar to dog feces through his eyes

-He tries to overlook her flaws though

-Months later he now views her as similar to a pile of elephant feces due to more perceived faults in her

-He calls her nasty names and is all around hateful toward her

-He leaves her to search for his real queen that will adore him as he deserves

*Common variation to this is that he will during the dog feces phase begin to cheat on her and then will amp up the cheating even more during the elephant feces phase.

*Another variation he will cheat during the whole relationship regardless of anything.

Peace,

AO

[55suns]

Funny maybe I'm naive or maybe my exuBPD is high functioning,  but I really don't think mine cheated on me.  But other than that right on!

[AwakenedOne]

Funny maybe I'm naive or maybe my exuBPD is high functioning,  but I really don't think mine cheated on me.  But other than that right on!

Some cases I find tend to vary as I have noted with asterisks above.

My research that I have fully documented throughout the day with crayons here in the living room leads me to form what I believe to be an educated hypothesis of "the deal". I have rendered charts and grafts during the day with crayons and construction paper and childproof scissors and a mostly broken and cracked protractor.

[poor old smith]

Here's what happned to me.

*We met and she loved life.

*We were in our twenties.  She looked delicious.

*She let me be the boss.  I picked the restaurants.  I picked the movies.  I picked the locations for the occasional romantic getaway.

*We got married.  She got drunk and couldn't stop crying.

*We went on our honeymoon.  She spent the entire week raging.

*We opened a business.  She got so angry one night that she called a group of males to come to our house and beat me up.

*I told her I wanted a divorce.  She told me she was pregnant.

*She told me that if I hung out with old friends too often that she would get an abortion.

*She spent her days and nights literally and figuratively kicking me in the balls.

*She was a good mother.  She was a terrible wife.

*She lied to the police and had me escorted out of my own house.

*My family told me to dump her.  I stayed for the kids.

*My oldest son has now hit puberty.  Her rage is focused on him.

*She calls him words like "motherfukker" and "azzhole" on a daily basis.

*She strikes him with her fists and umbrellas and various kitchen implements.

*She says he's too stupid to wipe his own ass.

*I took him and left.

*She now calls to berate him and often threatens to humiliate him at school.

*She also threatens to kill his dog.

*This has been fifteen years of hell.

*I'd rather live with Ted Bundy.

*I've left a lot of stuff out due to time constraints.

I'm very angry and bitter.  Borderlines are pure evil.

Yikes.

[spicelover]

LOL this is actually very true.  Except in my case I don't think she's cheated on me, and I even wonder if she's even seeing anyone else yet.  She seems to be very very self absorbed about the entire situation.

[trappedinlove]

There is some comfort in understanding better the patholigies of r/s with a BPD. I know it helps me a lot of times to accept the facts of recovering from such one.

However, it doesn't resolve my pain.

The pain is mine and it is mine to deal with.

I try to look inside when I suffer to understand myself better.

What am I feeling.

What do I want to do.

Why do I want it.

what would I like to achieve.

What should I do to achieve it.

All that has little to do with the mechanics of BPD relationships.

It doesn't follow any strict rules of ":)o X and Y will follow"

I know I'm grieving.

There's a fine grief model.

Not everybody experience all stages.

Not everybody go through the classic order of stages.

I go back and forth and up and down.

And I know it's part of my way to grief and accept my loss.

And that's fine.

I'm happy with my progress.

And I'm frustrated when I'm stuck.

And that's fine too.

And I miss her a lot, and crave for the deep connection we had, and I still think about her all the time.

And that's ok.

I know I need to be patient and let myself heal at the right pace.

Pushing it or trying to harness the process to a strict flow feels superficial to me.

[letmeout]

poor old smith, I understand your bitterness. It sounds like your ex needs to be in a straight jacket in a rubber room. Sadly you can't force them to get help, and they closed most mental hospitals during the Regan era.

I thought mine needed to be locked up in a rubber room too, and he even admitted it himself on several occasions.  I am sorry that your son is exposed to that behavior.

[poor old smith]

poor old smith, I understand your bitterness. It sounds like your ex needs to be in a straight jacket in a rubber room. Sadly you can't force them to get help, and they closed most mental hospitals during the Regan era.

I thought mine needed to be locked up in a rubber room too, and he even admitted it himself on several occasions.  I am sorry that your son is exposed to that behavior.

Thanks.

My point is this:  Psychopaths have personality disorders, too.  They are just as trapped by their pathology as borderlines.  Yet we cut them no slack.

Borderline personality disorder shouldn't be romanticized.  A lot of these people are extremely dangerous.

I often wonder if I'm a closet masochist.  What kind of a man puts up with that crap for so long.  I should have left ages ago.

[Ihope2]

Sometimes, from what I've read about Borderline Personality Disorder, there is comorbidity with other Personality Disorders, or with Mood Disorders and other Mental Illness.  From  what you describe, poor old smith, it sounds like your BPDw has antisocial PD as well... . ?

My short-lived, 11 month marriage went through these stages:

Non BPD Codependent female (me) and BPD male:

1) Meet by chance at a marathon which we both ran.  I was immediately attracted and drawn to his quiet intensity and reservedness;

2) I donated a small amount of money to his charity (he was running against drug abuse);

3) I obsessed about him for a month and tried to Google info about him and where he lives etc;

4) I made contact with him through his Facebook page;

5) He came to my town to visit me.  Supposedly he fell instantly in love with me;

6) He never left, and started pressing me for marriage. My life was so empty and lonely, that I thought I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by marrying him;

7) I wanted to wait at least 6 months before tying the knot, he wanted to do it right away;

8) We got married right away;

9) He was very confident when he came to my home, and I was unsettled and shy around him; but after our marriage, he started getting very withdrawn around me and I realised that he was not as confident and happy and friendly as he seemed at face-value;

10) He started psychologically breaking down, becoming suicidal and desperate and was hospitalised in a psychiatric hospital (under my medical insurance) three times during our short time together;

11) At first all of his family secrets, abuse, incest, pedophilia, other family member's perversions, etc started being revealed to me by him.  This was about 5 months into our relationship. 

12) He was diagnosed with Bipolar Mood Disorder, was medicated and went to psychotherapy once a week, but things got worse and worse with him - he withdrew more from me, locked himself into the spare room, avoided me at night when I got home from work. I thought he had complex PTSD as well from all the childhood abuse and early adult traumatic life experiences he had had.

13) I invested a lot of money in him, to buy him stuff, help him find gainful activities to do each day, but nothing seemed to help him;

14) He became more and more negative in his attitude to everything:  my house, my job, my family, he hated the coastal town where I live and the fact that it is always very windy, he hated being at home all day getting bored, he hated having to be the house-husband and take care of the cleaning and cooking and the gardening, while I went to an office to work and earn money for us.  He hated the fact that at 44 years of age, I have done a few interesting things in my life like overseas travel, go on a ship to an island off the coast of Africa, etc.  He was envious of my life.  He hated that he always gets allergies and feels unwell and sick most of the day. 

15) I started wondering who this man really is, he would claim to be a vegetarian, for example, but then all of a sudden, he would eat meat, then feel bad about it and hate himself for it. He did not eat well at all.  He just drank fizzy cola and ate a mountain of chocolate and candy and crisps each day.  He did not eat healthy food and hardly ate dinner with me. He would hardly eat anything I would cook.  He put on weight from binge-eating junk food and then claimed to hate himself for being so fat.

16) About 9 months into our marriage, he started turning against me.  The "vulnerable" seducer stage was long gone, the "waif"like man now morphed into the "hater".  He would criticise me for being "obsessed with money" when I worried about our finances and the fact that he spent my money like water, whilst only I was earning and trying to live frugally and not dip into my savings too much.  Everything I did or said was given another angle by him and it was always negative towards him.  He read hostility in every thing I said or did or did not say or not do.

17) 10 months into our marriage, I was completely drained, and I just needed some space from his endless negativity and neediness of me. The more drained I got, the more he turned against me.  All the while, he claimed to love me like no other man would ever love me. That everyone else in my life had always abandoned me, but he would never leave me.  His actions and his words were totally out of sync by now.  He acted like I was his enemy, wanting to hurt and punish him, and yet he talked as though I was the greatest love of his life ever.

18) At 11 months, he suddenly suggested divorce one day, and I was so battle weary and confused and burnt-out, that I took the ball and ran with it.  He first said he would get into contact with legal aid, and then he turned it back on me and said I needed to handle the whole thing.

19) At 13 months into our marriage, he moved out and did a disappearing act, contacting me on his own terms out of the blue to threaten me with suicide, and plead for money etc ( I offered a divorce settlement of a lump sum and monthly financial assistance for 2 years due to various reasons that are significant to me and made it easier on my conscience to divorce him).  I am waiting for the lawyer to advise me of a date in Court for the divorce to go through.  I have no real idea where my BPD ex is these days. 

This is how the sequence/stages of our relationship ran their course.  I would say, he is mainly a "discouraged" subtype person with BPD. He definitely has Complex PTSD from horrific childhood trauma and later adult trauma. He has tic disorder, epilepsy, stuttering disorder (intermittently, not all the time). He definitely seems to have Generalised Anxiety Disorder ( panic attacks, hypervigilance, feeling unsafe and anxious all the time).  I would question the Bipolar Mood Disorder diagnosis - the mood stabiliser medication seemed to have no real effect on him.  He also has a highly addictive personality, he was born with opioid deficiency due to a drug addict mother who used during her full term carrying him.

I just would like to add, I do not and cannot hate this man, no matter what I have been through this past year with him and the material losses I suffered.  It is not his fault that he is the way he is.  I have learned a lot about myself in this traumatic time thanks to him.  I see my own issues oh so clearly now and my focus has finally turned to what ails me and what I need to do for myself.  I have learned 11 years' worth of stuff in these 11 months with him.

[imsodizzy]

Mine whent a little something like this

1.i met her because she was dating my best friend at the time

2.they broke up after being in and off for 2 years

3.she chased after me to make my best friend jelous i gave in

4.she would go see him then he moved out of state

5. She but her hooks in me and the ideakiztion phaze lasted for 4 years

6.she becomes obsessed with boss at work destroys are family comes back because he didnt want her i took her back happened again she be:ame cold distant anrd cruel i went no contact she found replacement on fb

[Skip]

*Common variation to this is that he will during the dog feces phase begin to cheat on her and then will amp up the cheating even more during the elephant feces phase.

Feces phase?

The idea that relationship dynamics "cycle" or evolve is a really important one.  It answers the question, but how could she say ______ (good)  and the later do ________ (bad).  Melton talks about it here.  

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

Non-Male meets BPD-Female {9 Stages}

-She immediately thinks he's a knight in shinning armor

-She clings

-He commits to her after she mirrors him and his needs

-She finds some fault with him

-He becomes viewed similar to dog feces in her mind due to that fault that she has observed

-She tries to overlook this fault though

-Months later she now views him as similar to a pile of elephant feces due to more perceived faults in him

-She now tells him he is no good and he is the devil and not a man

-She leaves him to find a new knight

What can we learn from this?  What part of this is abnormal for a failed relationship?  

Is this what we want to focus on?

For example, mirroring is a part of every successful relationship.  Not only do romantic partners mirror, we mirror on the job, at church, etc.  In fact, there is a lot of mirroring going on here on this board.

Is mirroring what went wrong?  Was it pathology?  How does it look different when we find the love of our life?

In models of normal love relationships, there is a phase that normally follows the the "honeymoon" and "exploration" phase called the "reality" phase* or the "phase of disillusionment".  All relationships go through this phase and it is a struggle.  Many relationship end here, many struggle for a while , before emerging into the "commitment" phase.

What can we learn from this?  In our case, what part of this was abnormal for a failed relationship?



* different models have different #s of phases and names - but all are basically alike

[imsodizzy]

Well the power struggle ensues after the honeymoon but my ? Is why is it so hard for BPDs to mive beyond the power struggle into the mature love stage

[kba1969]

Maybe they don't all cheat?  Mine sure did!  I was lucky to find out!  I found out a year and a half after we started being close.  But she was cheating on me all that time and had the wool pulled right over my eyes.  A friend of one of her boyfriends saw us walking together, this guy ended up messaging me on Facebook asking why we were walking together.  When I told him we had been together for over a year he told me that he had been also!  I wouldn't trust someone with BPD as far as I could throw um!  If I had taken a walk elsewhere that day I might not have found out! 

[Skip]

Well the power struggle ensues after the honeymoon but my ? Is why is it so hard for BPDs to mive beyond the power struggle into the mature love stage

In my case, she wanted to return to the honeymoon stage.  That was the relationship she wanted.

Was it just immaturity?  Fantasy? 

Was the reality less than what either wanted?

[woodsposse]

Sometimes, from what I've read about Borderline Personality Disorder, there is comorbidity with other Personality Disorders, or with Mood Disorders and other Mental Illness.  From  what you describe, poor old smith, it sounds like your BPDw has antisocial PD as well... . ?

My short-lived, 11 month marriage went through these stages:

Non BPD Codependent female (me) and BPD male:

1) Meet by chance at a marathon which we both ran.  I was immediately attracted and drawn to his quiet intensity and reservedness;

2) I donated a small amount of money to his charity (he was running against drug abuse);

3) I obsessed about him for a month and tried to Google info about him and where he lives etc;

4) I made contact with him through his Facebook page;

5) He came to my town to visit me.  Supposedly he fell instantly in love with me;

6) He never left, and started pressing me for marriage. My life was so empty and lonely, that I thought I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by marrying him;

7) I wanted to wait at least 6 months before tying the knot, he wanted to do it right away;

8) We got married right away;

9) He was very confident when he came to my home, and I was unsettled and shy around him; but after our marriage, he started getting very withdrawn around me and I realised that he was not as confident and happy and friendly as he seemed at face-value;

10) He started psychologically breaking down, becoming suicidal and desperate and was hospitalised in a psychiatric hospital (under my medical insurance) three times during our short time together;

11) At first all of his family secrets, abuse, incest, pedophilia, other family member's perversions, etc started being revealed to me by him.  This was about 5 months into our relationship. 

12) He was diagnosed with Bipolar Mood Disorder, was medicated and went to psychotherapy once a week, but things got worse and worse with him - he withdrew more from me, locked himself into the spare room, avoided me at night when I got home from work. I thought he had complex PTSD as well from all the childhood abuse and early adult traumatic life experiences he had had.

13) I invested a lot of money in him, to buy him stuff, help him find gainful activities to do each day, but nothing seemed to help him;

14) He became more and more negative in his attitude to everything:  my house, my job, my family, he hated the coastal town where I live and the fact that it is always very windy, he hated being at home all day getting bored, he hated having to be the house-husband and take care of the cleaning and cooking and the gardening, while I went to an office to work and earn money for us.  He hated the fact that at 44 years of age, I have done a few interesting things in my life like overseas travel, go on a ship to an island off the coast of Africa, etc.  He was envious of my life.  He hated that he always gets allergies and feels unwell and sick most of the day. 

15) I started wondering who this man really is, he would claim to be a vegetarian, for example, but then all of a sudden, he would eat meat, then feel bad about it and hate himself for it. He did not eat well at all.  He just drank fizzy cola and ate a mountain of chocolate and candy and crisps each day.  He did not eat healthy food and hardly ate dinner with me. He would hardly eat anything I would cook.  He put on weight from binge-eating junk food and then claimed to hate himself for being so fat.

16) About 9 months into our marriage, he started turning against me.  The "vulnerable" seducer stage was long gone, the "waif"like man now morphed into the "hater".  He would criticise me for being "obsessed with money" when I worried about our finances and the fact that he spent my money like water, whilst only I was earning and trying to live frugally and not dip into my savings too much.  Everything I did or said was given another angle by him and it was always negative towards him.  He read hostility in every thing I said or did or did not say or not do.

17) 10 months into our marriage, I was completely drained, and I just needed some space from his endless negativity and neediness of me. The more drained I got, the more he turned against me.  All the while, he claimed to love me like no other man would ever love me. That everyone else in my life had always abandoned me, but he would never leave me.  His actions and his words were totally out of sync by now.  He acted like I was his enemy, wanting to hurt and punish him, and yet he talked as though I was the greatest love of his life ever.

18) At 11 months, he suddenly suggested divorce one day, and I was so battle weary and confused and burnt-out, that I took the ball and ran with it.  He first said he would get into contact with legal aid, and then he turned it back on me and said I needed to handle the whole thing.

19) At 13 months into our marriage, he moved out and did a disappearing act, contacting me on his own terms out of the blue to threaten me with suicide, and plead for money etc ( I offered a divorce settlement of a lump sum and monthly financial assistance for 2 years due to various reasons that are significant to me and made it easier on my conscience to divorce him).  I am waiting for the lawyer to advise me of a date in Court for the divorce to go through.  I have no real idea where my BPD ex is these days. 

This is how the sequence/stages of our relationship ran their course.  I would say, he is mainly a "discouraged" subtype person with BPD. He definitely has Complex PTSD from horrific childhood trauma and later adult trauma. He has tic disorder, epilepsy, stuttering disorder (intermittently, not all the time). He definitely seems to have Generalised Anxiety Disorder ( panic attacks, hypervigilance, feeling unsafe and anxious all the time).  I would question the Bipolar Mood Disorder diagnosis - the mood stabiliser medication seemed to have no real effect on him.  He also has a highly addictive personality, he was born with opioid deficiency due to a drug addict mother who used during her full term carrying him.

I just would like to add, I do not and cannot hate this man, no matter what I have been through this past year with him and the material losses I suffered.  It is not his fault that he is the way he is.  I have learned a lot about myself in this traumatic time thanks to him.  I see my own issues oh so clearly now and my focus has finally turned to what ails me and what I need to do for myself.  I have learned 11 years' worth of stuff in these 11 months with him.

Replace the he with a she... . and extend it to almost 20 years... . and that was my life!

[goldylamont]

AwakenedOne this was kind of funny. Yes my r/s i suppose loosely followed your living room/crayon schematic; although I'm unsure if she cheated. i think i broke up with her before she got the chance but as others have said at this point she could have been sleeping with several people at once and i feel she would be capable of lying about it... . so i just don't want to know  

Skip your questions got me thinking, thanks for posting I'll try and answer below from my perspective:

What can we learn from this?  What part of this is abnormal for a failed relationship?  

for me breaking things down into patterns such as AO provided helps me understand the cycle many r/s with pwBPD take. after reading countless experiences here summarizing allows us to see things for what they are, see the pwBPD for more of who they are and also to learn more about ourselves and our involvement. using comedy/satire gives us a break from the tougher emotions.

i don't feel so alone realizing that so many others have shared nearly the same experience, so whittling things down in these ways help clarify what happened while connecting me to others.

also, personally i just like knowing 'the game'. i feel much stronger now knowing how my ex operates, what she's capable of and likely how she will behave. this kept me away from her when she tried to reconnect and allows me to make better decisions for myself going forward.

Is this what we want to focus on?

it is part of what i like to focus on, yes. understanding BPD r/s dynamics in general i feel was a big part of my (ongoing) recovery. of course i do tons of focus on my own behaviors also. i'm responsible enough to look at my own issues so i don't feel guilty understanding others and the impact of both on the whole situation.

For example, mirroring is a part of every successful relationship.  Not only do romantic partners mirror, we mirror on the job, at church, etc.  In fact, there is a lot of mirroring going on here on this board.

Is mirroring what went wrong?  Was it pathology?  How does it look different when we find the love of our life?

In models of normal love relationships, there is a phase that normally follows the the "honeymoon" and "exploration" phase called the "reality" phase* or the "phase of disillusionment".  All relationships go through this phase and it is a struggle.  Many relationship end here, many struggle for a while , before emerging into the "commitment" phase.

What can we learn from this?  In our case, what part of this was abnormal for a failed relationship?

this is very true. in my case i believe my xuBPDgf was very high functioning (well, with me she was, not so much for the first year or so afterwards... ?). so the majority of our r/s i feel was on good terms with both of us meaning well. There is much of my r/s that i feel would be 'normal', including arguments and disagreements that we had.

"In our case, what part of this was abnormal for a failed relationship?" << the amount of lying. the projection. the devaluing. accusations of cheating. lack of empathy in the hater phase. smearing. (some) raging.

i have had 3 other long term r/s both before and after this one that i consider 'normal'. and in each of these i dealt with love, some arguing and tough moments. but none of the issues i've experienced in other r/s are on par to those with this particular ex. there is a distinct difference and now the pattern is much easier to see.

[Skip]

Is this what we want to focus on?

it is part of what i like to focus on, yes. understanding BPD r/s dynamics in general i feel was a big part of my (ongoing) recovery. of course i do tons of focus on my own behaviors also. i'm responsible enough to look at my own issues so i don't feel guilty understanding others and the impact of both on the whole situation.

I agree that understanding relationship dynamics is good idea. Doing the postmortem has great value.  We have to break it until we really get it or we won't learn.

My question is are we paying the attention to what is normal human dynamics, unfavorable human dynamics and pathology?

Are relationship cycles a BPD pathology? No. We all cycle.

Is mirroring a BPD pathology? No. We all mirror.

Is Triangulation a BPD pathology? No. We all triangulate.

Is idealization a BPD pathology? No.  We all idealize.

I raise this because I see members on the Building Relationship freakout when a date idealizes them.  I see members make lists on Leaving of 100 red flags - and in the list are 87 normal things.

Everything that happened in the relationship was not BPD pathology.  But some things were and it helps to get down to it.  

For example, my ex mirrored more than most people.  And I was pushing her to mirror more.  I pushed more than I should have and she didn't know how to say no. It went so far that she started to feel engulfed that I was taking away her identity and it was driving increased resentment.  So in my case, it wasn't the mirroring as much as it was her fear to be who she was for fear of disappointing me.  And I made it worse. I fed that fear.  I encouraged the mirroring as it was something I wanted.  I didn't stop to really see her.

This is one dynamic that really hurt the relationship... . and drove some bad behavior.

[goldylamont]

Is this what we want to focus on?

it is part of what i like to focus on, yes. understanding BPD r/s dynamics in general i feel was a big part of my (ongoing) recovery. of course i do tons of focus on my own behaviors also. i'm responsible enough to look at my own issues so i don't feel guilty understanding others and the impact of both on the whole situation.

I agree that understanding relationship dynamics is good idea. Doing the postmortem has great value.  We have to break it until we really get it or we won't learn.

My question is are we paying the attention to what is normal human dynamics, unfavorable human dynamics and pathology?

Are relationship cycles a BPD pathology? No. We all cycle.

Is mirroring a BPD pathology? No. We all mirror.

Is Triangulation a BPD pathology? No. We all triangulate.

Is idealization a BPD pathology? No.  We all idealize.

I raise this because I see members on the Building Relationship freakout when a date idealizes them.  I see members make lists on Leaving list 100 red flags - and in the list are 87 normal things.

Everything that happened in the relationship was not BPD pathology.  But some things were and it helps to get down to it.  

For example, my ex mirrored more than most people.  And I was pushing her to mirror more.  I pushed more than I should have and she didn't know how to say no. It went so far that she started to feel engulfed that I was taking away her identity and it was driving increased resentment.  So in my case, it wasn't the mirroring as much as it was her fear to be who she was for fear of disappointing me.  And I made it worse. I fed that fear.  I encouraged the mirroring as it was something I wanted.  I didn't stop to really see her.

This is one dynamic that really hurt the relationship... . and drove some bad behavior.

i see. i agree that during recovery we may start 'seeing' red flags where it's not necessary. and everything you list above does occur in normal r/s also.

how i make sense of it-- r/s cycles, mirroring, Triangulation and idealization -- all of these things can occur in relationships where there is little to no emotional abuse. so these behaviors in and of themselves are not indicative of pathology.

however pwBPD tend to pathologize each of these behaviors to varying degrees. are mirroring and Triangulation pathologies in and of themselves? No. Do pwBPD often mirror and triangulate pathologically? Yes.

recovery over time allows us to recalibrate how we understand these traits. initially we may underestimate their influence, then may overestimate it as we gain time/wisdom/acceptance.

[woodsposse]

how i make sense of it-- r/s cycles, mirroring, Triangulation and idealization -- all of these things can occur in relationships where there is little to no emotional abuse. so these behaviors in and of themselves are not indicative of pathology.



Yeah, see that was bugging me for a little bit.  I had looked back on my last r/s (after my marriage ended) - and after my g/f and I split up, I looked back on everything and all the behaviors were there (cycles, mirroring, Triangulation, idalization... . not necessarily in that order) - and I first I thought "dang, how did I get involved with another pwPD?"

Then I thought about it, there really was no emotional drama in our r/s (except what I may have brought with my baggage).  I mean, we never had emotional drama between us.  But, I was still going through the grief process of my marriage ending. (that is a totally different post).

And in any other r/s you can go through cycles and end up splitting up.

The difference here is, she isn't "blaming" me for anything, or trying to split me (we decided to still talk every now and again... . maybe not 'friends', but during our time together she really did mean a lot to me and I felt uncomfortable with just pretending she didn't exist), she's not suicidal or trying to "get back with me", she not raging like I abandoned her or any such stuff.

(besides, if she did start that stuff... . there is no way I would 'get back with her' ... . I've been through that stuff more times than I care to recall!)

In our case, I think we just hit a point where  we reached as far as we could go and it's just not something we could go on with.  So, in the end, I'd say that's pretty normal/healthy.  Certainly not BPD.  Whew!