Lying? Or are there things we can believe?

[NewMom]

I'm posting here as I feel like I am still in reality undecided... . rationally I know I'm better off without my dBPDh but I care so much for him.

We've been separated for a few months now.  He told me yesterday that he's been working with the self-help book I gave him and he's been doing well with his therapist.  He told me the reason he wants to be apart is that he has the potential to drag me and our daughter down with him and he doesn't want to be responsible for that.  He also says he has no one else to talk to besides me.  He has many friends but he doesn't see that they're really interested in his welfare.  He says he loves spending time with us (D7mo and me) and at the same time feels like he's letting us down all over again. 

The thing is: He cheated and lies about things one wouldn't need to lie about.  He has contact to many women "who would love to help and save him from me".  What do I believe?  When we talk it all sounds so plausible - he has a great way with words and expression.  But at the same time I have a tugging feeling at my heart that I simply cannot trust him. 

Is there a way to move on and still be there for them?  In the end, I want/need a healthy father for our baby and if I can at least seem like I'm there for him while I try to move on with my life (i.e. look at myself and try to understand why I was even able to "be there" for so long in the first place, have T, go to self-help groups myself, read the lessons here, etc), will that just interrupt my moving on?  Is it possible?  Has anyone had the same experience where it worked out (what I mean is where you didn't lose yourself all over again)?

[AimingforMastery]

Hi there,

I am not an expert, but it sounds like he is saying good and reasonable things... . in that he is being self honest about the problems he can cause you. That is self honesty which is not serving him, and hence in my book indicates the possibility to trust... .

And yet of course you are right not to trust him at this stage. Trust has to be earned back and rebuilding trust takes time. And he has to do the earning back of trust, the rebuilding... .

My advice would be if / as he is going to therapy, encourage him to keep going and trust that process. That is your best chance of a healthy father etc. And to avoid the pitfalls of enmeshment along the way, stay focused on giving to yourself in ways that ground you in your sense of self - meditation, Tai chi, journaling, Therapy.

[NewMom]

Thank you AoM!

It's been taking him so long to finally approach T and along the way he's been so unbelievably hurtful.  But when he tells me about revelations he's had, what problems he's facing when dealing with being alone (he lives with his parents at the moment and after a few nights when they were travelling he realized he's not ready to live on his own yet).  He also tells me repeatedly that he isn't interested in a romantic rs with anyone at the moment - that he can barely deal with himself and his suicidal tendencies.  But as he's cheated on me before that seems like sth I can't really believe.

Nevertheless, I tell him how I believe that he will be able to heal and that I am glad he's looking at himself even if it hurts.  I try to encourage the steps he's been taking and listen (without judging) about the relapses he suffers in between (drinking binges, etc). 

The thing is that we were best-friends before we became a couple and it is so unbelievably hard to envision him completely OUT of my life, even if we don't continue as a couple.  But I just don't want to jeopardize MY own healing.  Because in the end, no matter for what reason, the pain he caused me is not erasable by him getting better.  I need to know why I was able to take the pain, accept it, and even make excuses for it.

[NewMom]

But when he tells me about revelations he's had, what problems he's facing when dealing with being alone (he lives with his parents at the moment and after a few nights when they were travelling he realized he's not ready to live on his own yet) *

* I am happy that he can confide in me!

[OutOfEgypt]

Sorry, but it sounds like manipulation.  I don't doubt that he believes it, but still.

He told me the reason he wants to be apart is that he has the potential to drag me and our daughter down with him and he doesn't want to be responsible for that.  He also says he has no one else to talk to besides me.  He has many friends but he doesn't see that they're really interested in his welfare.

My ex wife would never admit to that first part, not really.  But if/when she did things like that, it would be in order to illicit pity and compassion.  To get me saying, "Awww... . its okay... . "  I don't know your husband, but that is what it sounds like to me.  And it fits in quite well with what you describe that follows.  "Poor me.  Nobody cares about me.  I have nobody to talk to except for you."  My ex would say that to me all the time, especially during our breakup (when I was finally done).  She would say how she has no real friends.  She would cry to me and want a hug.  She would tell me she is losing her best friend.  She has people she is an ear for, but not in return.  And nobody who really cares or understands.

A few things about that:  It may be true in some sense, but I sense its more of a hook to grab us by our compassion, though they probably are sincere (at least consciously) when they say it.  I know my ex wife did (and probably still does) consider me her best friend.  However, my wife surrounded herself with the most vacuous, drama-laden people I've known.  She always had lots of friends, lots of new ones for a time.  Really, they existed because they would listen to her justify herself or simply make her feel better about herself because they were kinda losers, or be partners in crime.  She would trash-talk them behind their back to me, because its "me" (and she would tell me "everything"... . oh, except for the latest guy she was screwing).  She was not and is not capable of true, mutual, emotional attachment and partership with people.  That is a hallmark of BPD.  People exist in their lives for their usefulness.  Her friends are either narcissistic supply to bolster her ego for a time or long-time friends who knew her from back in the day who really don't want anything to do with her because of how she acts.  It's like a revolving door of friends... . new ones frequently but only for a short time, and then some she cycles in and out as needed.

So, if your husband's friendships are at all like that, it would not surprise me.  But men can and DO have good friendships with other men.  I have a few good friends that are like brothers to me.  To me, this behavior sounds like he's trying to keep you on the hook because he feels you are abandoning him.  And he knows exactly how to do it.

Listen to your gut, your perceptions.  They may not be right all the time, but they are much more reliable than listening to a person with BPD who is a "professional" at tugging your heart strings to keep things going the way they want.

[Leap]

Keep this is mind if you can.  You know your husband the best (believe it or not).  A good sign for both you and him is that he is in therapy.  That is the first step.  It would appear he has a desire to get well (much like an alcoholic or addict).  In my own re-education of this illness (my wife of 11 yrs is BPD), however, recovery is an ongoing process, a life long endeavor done one day at a time (again, much like it is for an alcoholic or addict).  Old habits and methods of dealing with life die hard (I am speaking from personal experience as I am a recovering alcoholic myself).  Once he gets to a point where he can live then he must maintain that, again, one day at a time.  If he feels that it in the best interests for you and him not to be together, then fighting that will most likely do both YOU and HIM more harm than good.  You and he had a child together so you will have to have contact with him (at least in most cases) whether he is well or not.  He has not died and as long as he is above ground taking a breath, there is hope.  And look at it this way.  Wouldn't it possibly be better for all involved (especially your child) if you lived separately but were happy, than lived together and were miserable.  You both have lives to live.  Try to keep that in mind.  Has he lied in the past? (sure, it's one of the mainstays of BPD).  Will he lie in the future? (maybe, maybe not, it's the future so who really knows what tomorrow brings).  Is he lying now? (possibly; it's like out of egypt stated, listen to your gut, trust your perceptions because that's all you really have).  Like I said before, it's a good sign that he is in therapy.  It shows a desire to change and become healthy.  Try not to obsess on the honesty thing so much.  I did it for years with my BPDw and it did nothing but turn my hair gray faster, give me wrinkles, raise my blood pressure and drive me crazy.  Take each moment as it comes.  That's all you can really do.  There have been times when I knew my wife was lying to me but it just wasn't worth it, at that particular moment in time, to call her on it.  Opportunities will present themselves when you can casually bring something up that is bothering you and if he is truly in recovery, those things can be addressed.  But again, old habits/behaviors die hard.  You can only work on you.  He can only work on him.  You can't FIX him, because if you could, you would.  This is a tough thing to remember as is having patience (especially when there is a child involved).  As far as other women.  You can't control that and trying to or thinking about it will only drive you to distraction and make you miserable.  He will do what he will do.  Don't buy trouble that may or may not exist.  If he is indeed doing something like that (and believe me, it is a pretty common occurrence with BPD), you may or may not find out.  When you do, cross that bridge when it comes.  I would also say that if that is a fear of yours, talk to him about it (if and when you can).  Try to be as honest with him (and yourself) as you can.  I have found in my own relationship I share a large part of the responsibility because I tried to do right but didn't understand this illness better.  I take ownership for my part.  I don't want to be part of the problem, but part of the solution.  That is the only thing we can really do.  Is this easy?  Hell know, facing your own shortcomings or issues or whatever is the toughest thing.  Looking inside yourself with true honesty is scary and difficult, but must be done, as he must do it.  Remember, if you are going to try and continue to share your life with your husband and the father of your child, it has to be a team effort in order for you both to succeed.  Good luck and God's speed.  Faith, Hope and Love.

[NewMom]

Thank you all for your input! 

Yes, OutOfEgypt, my h's friendships are similar to what you described:  He gets friends very quickly, then bad-talks them very quickly.  He wanted his BF to be our daughter's G'dfather.  Now that he has been involved with visiting us, spends time with her and me, my h has been bad-talking him, saying that he's responsible for my h drinking so much (which I know isn't true).  My h actually says the same things your exw said.

So, I will go with my gut and keep working on myself to detach.  Because as Leap said, it's better I get on with my life and ensure that our child has a happy, loving childhood without being confronted with his illness and what hurt he causes (even if unintentionally).

And look at it this way.  Wouldn't it possibly be better for all involved (especially your child) if you lived separately but were happy, than lived together and were miserable.  You both have lives to live.  Try to keep that in mind.  Has he lied in the past? (sure, it's one of the mainstays of BPD).  Will he lie in the future? (maybe, maybe not, it's the future so who really knows what tomorrow brings).  Is he lying now? (possibly; it's like out of egypt stated, listen to your gut, trust your perceptions because that's all you really have).  Like I said before, it's a good sign that he is in therapy.  It shows a desire to change and become healthy.  Try not to obsess on the honesty thing so much.  I did it for years with my BPDw and it did nothing but turn my hair gray faster, give me wrinkles, raise my blood pressure and drive me crazy.  Take each moment as it comes.  

I still try to have hope in his healing but I have very little hope that our future will be one as a couple... .

[OutOfEgypt]

I was actually curious to hear if your h's relationship with his friends are like that.  I find that interesting, and it actually solidifies things more for me, so thank you for that.

Hope is okay to have.  Of course you hope for that!    Anything can happen, I suppose.  But the detachment and healing and learning to stick with your gut and perceptions is something you will have to do anyway, for your own sanity and health, so good for you.  Even though it sucks, good for you.  My girls have already benefitted from me breaking away and standing on my own in reality.  I am a foundation for them when their mom acts like a teenage girl (quite often).

[NewMom]

What I don't "get" is that he suffered so badly with his mother being BPD (htough undiagnosed).  She would have many boyfriends while still being married to his father, she would act as if she were 17 and my h finally told her to leave the family if she can't behave like a married woman.  He always complained how horrible that was and that he would never do that and as he knew that I wouldn't either, I would be the "perfect" wife and mother.  And then he goes out and does the same without even realizing it... .   But at least he's started T and I really hope, more for his sake than mine, that he will be able to endure that life-long struggle he will have to face.  I know I can work at myself - I've learned a lot already and, though I may be scared, am looking at the "dark sides" of my persona as well.  For myself.  To grow.  And I will be better for it.

And even though I can work on myself, I still feel inclined to be there for him.  But detaching is getting easier with every day.  Soon it will have been a year, then two and then the pain will only be dull instead of throbbing like an open wound.

[NewMom]

I was actually curious to hear if your h's relationship with his friends are like that.  I find that interesting, and it actually solidifies things more for me, so thank you for that.

My girls have already benefitted from me breaking away and standing on my own in reality.  I am a foundation for them when their mom acts like a teenage girl (quite often).

I am so glad to read that because I worry so about the consequences.  But your girls have a wonderful father who is - as you wrote - a foundation they can depend on - like all children should have!   

[OutOfEgypt]

This is a broken world.  So while it sucks to have things not work out in the family (the "dream" we all have), what the kids really need is attachment -strong, reliable, supportive, but healthy attachment.  Attachment shows us that love is ok to give and to receive.  It gives us a reflection of ourselves.  My therapist told me that attachment is the real key, so my girls will probably be OK in the long-haul because their strongest attachment is to me.  My step-son, unfortunately, is most strongly attached to his mother... . and well, it shows in his life.

Yeah, BPD is not "genetic" from what I've learned and heard from my therapist, though it is based supposedly out of painful broken attachment as children with our main emotional figures (parents, usually).  That said, not everybody who has broken attachments with their parents turns out to be BPD (i mean, our parents are never perfect... . we all have some 'brokenness' to some degree).  But it is not something these folks "choose" to be like.  It is an unconscious way of dealing with their inner pain and conflicts.  They essentially deal with their inner conflict by not dealing with it and putting it on those closest to them, and then controlling them emotionally (with sex, guilt, verbal abuse, blame, gaslighting, playing a helpless victim who needs a rescuer, etc.) so that they will never "abandon" them.  In essence, they destroy attachments before they are truly possible, but they gain pack-mules pretty easily.  They are adept at reading people and their reactions and knowing exactly how to respond to keep things the way they want.  And I know, like anybody, they just want to be loved.  But as is, they don't see how their defenses and unconscious ways of dealing with life destroy the very thing they want.

I've heard it called "repetition compulsion" -something lots of us do.  My therapist once put it this way:  she essentially put me in the place of being the ultimate caregiver she never had and then punished me for all the rage and pain she had for not receiving the care and attention she craved as a child.  I was put in the place of being the ultimate mother, the ultimate father, the ultimate lover, the ultimate protector... . and then I was punished no matter how great I was.  Punished by neglect, abuse, bullying, manipulation, lying, cheating, projecting blame onto me, etc.

As much as I went through hell, it is true that if I never met my BPDexw I would not be the man I am today.  In that sense, all of the turmoil forced me to face certain things and become a much wiser, gentler, more real, and more honest person through suffering.

[OutOfEgypt]

And thank you  Your child is lucky to have you, as well.  We exist as a stabilizing force -though we, ourselves, are far from perfect

[Fanie]

(OutOfEgypt we meet again ... .   )

My therapist once put it this way:  she essentially put me in the place of being the ultimate caregiver she never had and then punished me for all the rage and pain she had for not receiving the care and attention she craved as a child.  I was put in the place of being the ultimate mother, the ultimate father, the ultimate lover, the ultimate protector... . and then I was punished no matter how great I was.  

 your threads 

Is the above a FACT ?

Do BPD's also lie to other people ? as badly as to us ?

And they obviously can see that ?

and still remain friends?

and can they become codependent ? (i.e her best lady friend / boyfriend)

[OutOfEgypt]

In my experience with my BPDexw, she acted differently to the outside world than to us in the home -though not always too differently.  To the outside, she wanted to appear bubbly and happy and vivacious and alluring... . even sweet and in need of rescuing.  She got lots of friends (and guys) that way.

Can they become codependent?  I believe they are *dependent*.  Codependency is, from what I understand, actually a term that formed out of Alcoholics Anonymous.  The alcoholic was the "dependent" person, and the partner who enabled them to continue in their destructive ways, their "helper" essentially who never said "enough is enough" was the "co-dependent".  It's like a symbiotic parasitic relationship.  The BPD ("dependent" wants someone to control and take their conflicts out on, and we (the "co-dependent" want to be controlled and hopefuly told we are good enough, once more.

[AimingforMastery]

In my experience with my BPDexw, she acted differently to the outside world than to us in the home -though not always too differently.  To the outside, she wanted to appear bubbly and happy and vivacious and alluring... . even sweet and in need of rescuing.  She got lots of friends (and guys) that way.

Out of Egypt, may I ask, was your BPDexw doing therapy? All I am trying to determine is if that is the type of behavior that continues when they the BPD is in therapy or not... .  

Many thanks.

[OutOfEgypt]

She is not in therapy at the moment, no.  She went for a short time, but I felt like she used it to make it sound like she was "all better" and I was the one who would never "get well".  She would even tell me that.  Keep in mind, she never went admitting to any kind of personality disorder.  She would tell me that she doesn't even know why she is going.  She didn't believe she needed to.

Heck, maybe she doesn't have BPD.  Maybe she just does all of the things BPD people do for some other reason   (I'm being sarcastic)  Being a part of this message family has helped solidify my conviction about her, for sure.  The similarities are staggering.

[Perdita]

In my experience with my BPDexw, she acted differently to the outside world than to us in the home -though not always too differently.  To the outside, she wanted to appear bubbly and happy and vivacious and alluring... . even sweet

Add "funny" to that list and you have just described my BPbf too.

[AimingforMastery]

Thank you Out of Egypt, I appreciate you sharing that as it gives me clarity in that I do think people can get well, but no chance if they quit, or don't go, or don't want to go to the therapy. Thank you again.

Perdita, may I ask you the same question - was / is your bf doing therapy (sincerely) or not?

My hypothesis is, with it you can have a chance of succeeding in relationship, without it you can not... .

[OutOfEgypt]

I will add that my therapist has told me that he has had some success with BPD clients.  So, depending on the person, it is at least potentially treatable.

[Perdita]

the same question - was / is your bf doing therapy (sincerely) or not?

No, he isn't.  I've been meaning to find a way to suggest he go for therapy, but I very much doubt that he will and think it might make him angry if I bring it up.

[waverider]

Lies and excuses are a way for a pwBPD to protect and preserve who they are in their eyes. It is there protective skin. Even if that skin is toxic, it is all they have. To preserve this the excuses and/or delusions are often aimed at themselves as much as anyone else. It is what they want to believe themselves. Without that self believe they have to face the awful truth, to which they have no answers.

Direct challenging these lies is taken as a personal attack as though you are trying to brutally peel away their skin. They dig in out of desperation and it turns into a life or death type struggle.

To deal with this more productively, they need to realize that this method is not working, without fueling the need for this defense by less perceived threatening behavior on our parts (counter attacking).  This takes the form of facing the consequences without us directly accusing, or trying to get them to admit they are lying. That only creates a fortress mentality. It takes a long time, but eventually they can become open to therapy to discover healthier ways. They need to feel safe enough to step out from behind the fortress walls

Once you get to this stage you are dealing with trying to correct an entrenched behavioral habit, rather than a desperate survival tool.

It is a difficult haul, and you need to work on how not to be so affected by what you know is happening, you need to survive this and maintain a quality of life. You life cannot be dependent on your partners recovery, or your life will be hold.

[waverider]

the same question - was / is your bf doing therapy (sincerely) or not?

No, he isn't.  I've been meaning to find a way to suggest he go for therapy, but I very much doubt that he will and think it might make him angry if I bring it up.

It is always a hard one that. Someone needs be to genuinely ready and open for therapy, otherwise it can backfire and cause therapy to be ineffective, and thus cause disillusionment for both them and yourself.

[AimingforMastery]

Thank you Perdita and all...

This all supports my hypothesis that, with therapy you have a shot but without you probably don't much have a shot at a happy relationship.

I welcome all your thoughts on this... .

[AimingforMastery]

Lies and excuses are a way for a pwBPD to protect and preserve who they are in their eyes. It is there protective skin. Even if that skin is toxic, it is all they have. To preserve this the excuses and/or delusions are often aimed at themselves as much as anyone else. It is what they want to believe themselves. Without that self believe they have to face the awful truth, to which they have no answers.

Direct challenging these lies is taken as a personal attack as though you are trying to brutally peel away their skin. They dig in out of desperation and it turns into a life or death type struggle.

To deal with this more productively, they need to realize that this method is not working, without fueling the need for this defense by less perceived threatening behavior on our parts (counter attacking).  This takes the form of facing the consequences without us directly accusing, or trying to get them to admit they are lying. That only creates a fortress mentality. It takes a long time, but eventually they can become open to therapy to discover healthier ways. They need to feel safe enough to step out from behind the fortress walls

Once you get to this stage you are dealing with trying to correct an entrenched behavioral habit, rather than a desperate survival tool.

It is a difficult haul, and you need to work on how not to be so affected by what you know is happening, you need to survive this and maintain a quality of life. You life cannot be dependent on your partners recovery, or your life will be hold.

Great post - thank you... .