Can you help me understand why a BPD and NPD relationship works so well?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My expBPD left his first marriage of under a year for a NPD. He's been in that marriage for several years. He left that marriage briefly while I was in a relationship with him. During our time together, he expressed over and over that he was not "in love" there and had not been for a very long time. He told me very often that he never had anyone love him the way I did.  I am likely an empth and very kind, understanding, calm, and caregiving. And non controlling. He often told me that felt he had to do and say things that were "expected of him" in his marriage with his NPD.  I had the opportunity to hear how his spouse spoke to him on occasion. On those occasions it felt like a mother ordering around a child. Realizing that these two disorders tend to go together "well" if you will, why is it that BPDs hurt nons, but not NPD's? She knew about our relationship. She did not seem to carry any of the after effects we nons do when our relationships with BPDs breakdown. When he was given a choice by her during their separation to make a decision, he left our relationship to return to the marriage. He said he didn't know why. He said It wasn't love but he felt he had to be there. I wish I could get a glimpse inside this type of union because the way he acted in both of these relationships was quite different.

[Caredverymuch]

My expBPD left his first marriage of under a year for a NPD. He's been in that marriage for several years. He left that marriage briefly while I was in a relationship with him. During our time together, he expressed over and over that he was not "in love" there and had not been for a very long time. He told me very often that he never had anyone love him the way I did.  I am likely an empth and very kind, understanding, calm, and caregiving. And non controlling. He often told me that felt he had to do and say things that were "expected of him" in his marriage with his NPD.  I had the opportunity to hear how his spouse spoke to him on occasion. On those occasions it felt like a mother ordering around a child. Realizing that these two disorders tend to go together "well" if you will, why is it that BPDs hurt nons, but not NPD's? She knew about our relationship. She did not seem to carry any of the after effects we nons do when our relationships with BPDs breakdown. When he was given a choice by her during their separation to make a decision, he left our relationship to return to the marriage. He said he didn't know why. He said It wasn't love but he felt he had to be there. I wish I could get a glimpse inside this type of union because the way he acted in both of these relationships was quite different.

[seeking balance]

Here is a thread on this:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=199404.0

Specifically, one of the best posts I have seen is from member 2010

There is a wealth of material that discusses the variety of shapes and forms these two personalities can take- especially concerning their differences and their bonds to one another.  Joan Lakhar Ph.D has been writing on this subject for many years, even before the advent of the Internet.

bpdfamily.com/book_review/joan_lachkar.htm

Contrary to popular belief, Narcissists and Borderlines are not evil or untreatable, they just need to make sense of their behavior if they wish to accept reality. Making sense of the behavior is what object relations theory (Klein) and the psychology of the “Self” (Kohut) is all about. 

Lakhar makes a point to defuse stigmatization with “although I use the terms borderline and narcissism as distinct entities, neither disorder is the same across individuals or even in an individual over time. Discussion would be impossible, however, without making certain abstract distinctions between them in order to frame the conflict.”

Rather than lumping them into one big wastebasket of broken humanity as a statistic, Lakhar realized that the anxiety of this arrested behavior each person experiences is as different as snowflakes, but these differences must be respected as qualitative differences in order to be assessed.

In her theory, Lakhar felt that Narcissists were more concerned with mirroring that was “Self”-directed while Borderlines were more concerned with becoming a part of something = “Object”-directed.

The Narcissist has been taught that they must be closed off and carefully protected from engulfment by others- and he/she inflates in much the same way a puffer fish does for protection. The Borderline is more like a remora, a clinging, parasitic, part-self, other-directed persona that seeks to attach and go along for the ride.

The real construct here is the extent to which people control or allow themselves to be controlled by others.

There are so many people who are brilliant theorists that it would be a shame not to at least delve into one or two of the ideas about arrested development to see where the origin of the problem begins.

James F. Masterson spent 40 years of his life detailing the differential diagnosis of Narcissism and Borderline and even went so far as to contribute a differential diagnosis on their high and low functions. In his 1981 book, the “Narcissistic and Borderline Disorders” he details many case studies and differentiates the developmental theory of both personality types as well as treatment outlines. 

Borderline failure to separate/individuate during the pre-oedipal period causes a lifelong view of “other-directed” actions. The same is true for Narcissists; however, Narcissists “subsume” others into their intrapsychic World as extensions while Borderlines (part-time selves) fuse to others in the mistaken belief that they will become whole persons.

Both partners wear masks of “false selves” to hide their vulnerable true selves. Narcissists are gullible, and instead of seeing their perfect “false self” reflection in the Borderline as fraudulent, they believe that they have found a fellow narcissist who shares their World view and compunction for perfection.

Both partners present themselves as misunderstood in life and now share each other’s World view- but the Borderline does this as a Trojan horse offering in order to slip inside the Narcissists protective outer. The Narcissist unwittingly subsumes the Borderline as a part of themselves and gives rarely allowed access- thinking that the Borderline has the same protective outer that demands rigid rules for membership. Alas, not only does the Borderline *not* know these rules- they cannot even try to implement them- and the Narcissist becomes aware of dis*ease* between them (a.k.a. red flags of odd behavior) Something clicks in the Narcissist, that this person really wasn’t who they said they were and control issues arise when the Narcissist tries to get the Borderline back in line with the idealized self that was initially presented. When this fails (as it always does) the anxiety turns persecutory for the borderline and the Narcissist withdraws.

Eventually, the Narcissist comes to a painful process of understanding that the borderline actually mirrored the Narcissist and the Narcissist actually mirrored their own self.  Judging the amount of shame that arises during Smear campaigns, distortion, and the blame game are all narcissistic injuries in the aftermath of the broken mirror.  (Note: One does not need to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder to have narcissistic traits. Narcissistic traits can be healthy unless they subsume others.)

Fortunately there are many books that stay away from the stigmatization of the “all or none” characteristics to personalities- these books concentrate on the quality of behavior instead.  Schema therapy by Jeffrey Young Ph.D, was created n 1994.  It is a beautifully modern interpretation of the diagnostic manual which applies to everyone who struggles with abandonment, mistrust and abuse, dependence, vulnerability, emotional deprivation, social exclusion, defectiveness, failure, subjugation, unrelenting standards and entitlement. These eleven "lifetraps" are lifelong patterns or themes that replicate the DSM diagnostics. They are self-destructive personality traits and yet they struggle for survival. The end result is that we manage to recreate the conditions of our childhood that was most harmful to us because we are familiar with the feelings.

Young’s theory is tightly woven into a structured, systematic model of therapy themes, called Schema.  Both Narcissists and Borderline personalities are behaviorally dissected in a way that shows distinct differences to how they view themselves and how to approach them in treatment. Add that to the 30 year old Masterson approach and the treatment options keep encouraging people to get at what ails them in talk therapy.  The understanding of the wants and needs of people vs. fantasy/reality is confronted.  The end result is reality testing and truth.

There are, unfortunately, a plethora of books and blogs that do stigmatize, born out of frustrating personal events and without much introspective clarity for the whys and hows of getting involved with the Borderline or Narcissistic personality and the reasons for continuing to stay with them. (Yes, there are reasons.) According to Joan Lachkar, “it’s not that people are crazy, it’s just that each partner stirs up some un-developmental issue in the other that desperately needs to be worked through.”

In 1988, James F. Masterson M.D. released his brilliant analysis, “The Search for the Real Self, Unmasking the Personality disorders of our age.” In the preface he writes: “This negative attitude about the difficulties of successfully treating borderline and narcissistic patients survives to the day in many areas where therapists have not become aware of the newer discoveries. It often continues to be the prevailing attitude in lay circles and in the media, which is one of the important reasons I wrote this book. Not all, but many patients, given the proper therapeutic support, can and will overcome their developmental problems and their real selves will emerge.” ~ Masterson

Masterson knew that we all had bits and pieces of maladaptive coping mechanisms- and a little bit of family history went a long way toward understanding, but it wasn't all or none.  There was a possibility of acceptance and change.

Lachkar’s “The narcissistic/borderline couple: new approaches to marital therapy.” is now in its second printing.  “Listen for the theme,” Lackhar says. “At the core of the dynamic flow between narcissistic/borderline partners is a duel between omnipotence and vulnerability.”   One partner withdraws and the other chases, one partner closes in (engulfment) and the other flees… Both people are desperate for love but unable to trust it.  It is a dance. Again, The real construct here is the extent to which people control or allow themselves to be controlled by others.

Investigating and treating the behavior of both parties offers less stigmatization of the separate personalities and more treatment avenues - and this is what the Masterson institute, Jeffrey Young and Joan Lachkar specialize in.

Whether it’s object relations therapy, or Self psychology or Schema therapy, there is no such thing as a NON.  We are all human beings and we all need to work on our separate issues in the aftermath of the relationship. Understanding your partner’s negative life patterns will allow you to see your own- Young calls these self defeating maladaptive coping mechanisms “lifetraps” and he even has information on his website. It’s not enough to turn your back on a Borderline- you have to confront your reasons for being attracted to this cipher in the first place.  Young’s book, “Reinventing your life” is also a good start.  Doing the right thing

amazon.com/James-F.-Masterson

amazon.com/Schema-Therapy-Practitioners-Jeffrey-Young

amazon.com/Reinventing-Your-Life-Breakthough-Behavior

[crookedeuphoria]

I think that my uBPDxbf's ex wife was npd, as well. Most of the behaviors he exhibited with me were not exhibited with her and I never understood how they had stayed together so long because she was (appeared to be) very mean and controlling. My theory is that his r/s with her was fear based, as that with a dominating parent. That's why he didn't act up so much and continues to be terrified of her to this day. My r/s with him was love based which is what caused all of the hard core BPD traits to rear their head. My bf also told me that he had never been loved the way I love him and I do believe that was true. I am an empath as well and also non controlling. I would encourage him to do things that he had never been "allowed" to do with her--simple things like cook or fix something around the house. I tried to empower him to see that he was a capable, strong man while she had done the opposite. Part of why I excused a lot of what he did was because I thought that his behaviors were due to his r/s with her.

[Caredverymuch]

Here is a thread on this:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=199404.0

Specifically, one of the best posts I have seen is from member 2010

There is a wealth of material that discusses the variety of shapes and forms these two personalities can take- especially concerning their differences and their bonds to one another.  Joan Lakhar Ph.D has been writing on this subject for many years, even before the advent of the Internet.

bpdfamily.com/book_review/joan_lachkar.htm

Contrary to popular belief, Narcissists and Borderlines are not evil or untreatable, they just need to make sense of their behavior if they wish to accept reality. Making sense of the behavior is what object relations theory (Klein) and the psychology of the “Self” (Kohut) is all about. 

Lakhar makes a point to defuse stigmatization with “although I use the terms borderline and narcissism as distinct entities, neither disorder is the same across individuals or even in an individual over time. Discussion would be impossible, however, without making certain abstract distinctions between them in order to frame the conflict.”

Rather than lumping them into one big wastebasket of broken humanity as a statistic, Lakhar realized that the anxiety of this arrested behavior each person experiences is as different as snowflakes, but these differences must be respected as qualitative differences in order to be assessed.

In her theory, Lakhar felt that Narcissists were more concerned with mirroring that was “Self”-directed while Borderlines were more concerned with becoming a part of something = “Object”-directed.

The Narcissist has been taught that they must be closed off and carefully protected from engulfment by others- and he/she inflates in much the same way a puffer fish does for protection. The Borderline is more like a remora, a clinging, parasitic, part-self, other-directed persona that seeks to attach and go along for the ride.

The real construct here is the extent to which people control or allow themselves to be controlled by others.

There are so many people who are brilliant theorists that it would be a shame not to at least delve into one or two of the ideas about arrested development to see where the origin of the problem begins.

James F. Masterson spent 40 years of his life detailing the differential diagnosis of Narcissism and Borderline and even went so far as to contribute a differential diagnosis on their high and low functions. In his 1981 book, the “Narcissistic and Borderline Disorders” he details many case studies and differentiates the developmental theory of both personality types as well as treatment outlines. 

Borderline failure to separate/individuate during the pre-oedipal period causes a lifelong view of “other-directed” actions. The same is true for Narcissists; however, Narcissists “subsume” others into their intrapsychic World as extensions while Borderlines (part-time selves) fuse to others in the mistaken belief that they will become whole persons.

Both partners wear masks of “false selves” to hide their vulnerable true selves. Narcissists are gullible, and instead of seeing their perfect “false self” reflection in the Borderline as fraudulent, they believe that they have found a fellow narcissist who shares their World view and compunction for perfection.

Both partners present themselves as misunderstood in life and now share each other’s World view- but the Borderline does this as a Trojan horse offering in order to slip inside the Narcissists protective outer. The Narcissist unwittingly subsumes the Borderline as a part of themselves and gives rarely allowed access- thinking that the Borderline has the same protective outer that demands rigid rules for membership. Alas, not only does the Borderline *not* know these rules- they cannot even try to implement them- and the Narcissist becomes aware of dis*ease* between them (a.k.a. red flags of odd behavior) Something clicks in the Narcissist, that this person really wasn’t who they said they were and control issues arise when the Narcissist tries to get the Borderline back in line with the idealized self that was initially presented. When this fails (as it always does) the anxiety turns persecutory for the borderline and the Narcissist withdraws.

Eventually, the Narcissist comes to a painful process of understanding that the borderline actually mirrored the Narcissist and the Narcissist actually mirrored their own self.  Judging the amount of shame that arises during Smear campaigns, distortion, and the blame game are all narcissistic injuries in the aftermath of the broken mirror.  (Note: One does not need to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder to have narcissistic traits. Narcissistic traits can be healthy unless they subsume others.)

Fortunately there are many books that stay away from the stigmatization of the “all or none” characteristics to personalities- these books concentrate on the quality of behavior instead.  Schema therapy by Jeffrey Young Ph.D, was created n 1994.  It is a beautifully modern interpretation of the diagnostic manual which applies to everyone who struggles with abandonment, mistrust and abuse, dependence, vulnerability, emotional deprivation, social exclusion, defectiveness, failure, subjugation, unrelenting standards and entitlement. These eleven "lifetraps" are lifelong patterns or themes that replicate the DSM diagnostics. They are self-destructive personality traits and yet they struggle for survival. The end result is that we manage to recreate the conditions of our childhood that was most harmful to us because we are familiar with the feelings.

Young’s theory is tightly woven into a structured, systematic model of therapy themes, called Schema.  Both Narcissists and Borderline personalities are behaviorally dissected in a way that shows distinct differences to how they view themselves and how to approach them in treatment. Add that to the 30 year old Masterson approach and the treatment options keep encouraging people to get at what ails them in talk therapy.  The understanding of the wants and needs of people vs. fantasy/reality is confronted.  The end result is reality testing and truth.

There are, unfortunately, a plethora of books and blogs that do stigmatize, born out of frustrating personal events and without much introspective clarity for the whys and hows of getting involved with the Borderline or Narcissistic personality and the reasons for continuing to stay with them. (Yes, there are reasons.) According to Joan Lachkar, “it’s not that people are crazy, it’s just that each partner stirs up some un-developmental issue in the other that desperately needs to be worked through.”

In 1988, James F. Masterson M.D. released his brilliant analysis, “The Search for the Real Self, Unmasking the Personality disorders of our age.” In the preface he writes: “This negative attitude about the difficulties of successfully treating borderline and narcissistic patients survives to the day in many areas where therapists have not become aware of the newer discoveries. It often continues to be the prevailing attitude in lay circles and in the media, which is one of the important reasons I wrote this book. Not all, but many patients, given the proper therapeutic support, can and will overcome their developmental problems and their real selves will emerge.” ~ Masterson

Masterson knew that we all had bits and pieces of maladaptive coping mechanisms- and a little bit of family history went a long way toward understanding, but it wasn't all or none.  There was a possibility of acceptance and change.

Lachkar’s “The narcissistic/borderline couple: new approaches to marital therapy.” is now in its second printing.  “Listen for the theme,” Lackhar says. “At the core of the dynamic flow between narcissistic/borderline partners is a duel between omnipotence and vulnerability.”   One partner withdraws and the other chases, one partner closes in (engulfment) and the other flees… Both people are desperate for love but unable to trust it.  It is a dance. Again, The real construct here is the extent to which people control or allow themselves to be controlled by others.

Investigating and treating the behavior of both parties offers less stigmatization of the separate personalities and more treatment avenues - and this is what the Masterson institute, Jeffrey Young and Joan Lachkar specialize in.

Whether it’s object relations therapy, or Self psychology or Schema therapy, there is no such thing as a NON.  We are all human beings and we all need to work on our separate issues in the aftermath of the relationship. Understanding your partner’s negative life patterns will allow you to see your own- Young calls these self defeating maladaptive coping mechanisms “lifetraps” and he even has information on his website. It’s not enough to turn your back on a Borderline- you have to confront your reasons for being attracted to this cipher in the first place.  Young’s book, “Reinventing your life” is also a good start.  Doing the right thing

amazon.com/James-F.-Masterson

amazon.com/Schema-Therapy-Practitioners-Jeffrey-Young

amazon.com/Reinventing-Your-Life-Breakthough-Behavior

Thank you so much for this well researched article. I have read up a bit on this disordered coupling and it seems very prevalent. I wonder if either the BPD or NPD together know real love. Perhaps the dance of clinging for the desperate sense of identity and holding on like a vice for a sense control is what keeps much of it going.

[Caredverymuch]

I think that my uBPDxbf's ex wife was npd, as well. Most of the behaviors he exhibited with me were not exhibited with her and I never understood how they had stayed together so long because she was (appeared to be) very mean and controlling. My theory is that his r/s with her was fear based, as that with a dominating parent. That's why he didn't act up so much and continues to be terrified of her to this day. My r/s with him was love based which is what caused all of the hard core BPD traits to rear their head. My bf also told me that he had never been loved the way I love him and I do believe that was true. I am an empath as well and also non controlling. I would encourage him to do things that he had never been "allowed" to do with her--simple things like cook or fix something around the house. I tried to empower him to see that he was a capable, strong man while she had done the opposite. Part of why I excused a lot of what he did was because I thought that his behaviors were due to his r/s with her.

Thank you for your insight and I could have written this same post based on my experience. In fact I touched on this a bit with my T and it indeed seems exactly what you state. Familiar territory replicating their fear based NPD parent with their fear based r/s with a NPD partner. I did exactly like you. I excused the BPD behaviors because I thought they were due to his r/s and frustrations from his NPD relationship where he was controlled and appeared afraid. He once told me he asked if he can do even the simple things, like go to the bathroom? I encouraged and nurtured him during our time together to do things that felt freeing and to make his own choices. I never controlled because that's not love. What I didn't realize was although my mirror was indeed a genuinely loving and accepting one, he needed the fear based controlling one for identity. Encouraging him to enjoy a free and easy sense of self was futile. He had no sense of self. And the inability to know what to do without being told prompted an even greater fear and anxiety. Our r/s had based on love truly bought the BPD behaviors out full force. This is where it is beyond sad. A disorder whereby the person so deeply wants to be loved for who they are but... . we all know the rest.

[Turkish]

Funny... . I was thinking about this and searching yesterday on this very theme, to understand why my uBPDx went back to her pattern of much younger, immature guys with narcissistic traits. Thanks for posting the old thread, SB, I will go look at it. What I found yesterday, which is a very short summation of that article is: "False self [NPD] meets Empty Self [BPD]."

My replacement projects two false selves: athlete who hurts people on the field and takes pride in it by his violent nickname, and super religious, spiritual and loving character. He even goes by a childish nickname that is far from befitting his chronological age. Several comments I've gotten from people were, "he's a goof" "He's weird, always posting bible verses on her page and stuff about love." (I told them to stop telling me these things). My boss's son worked with him as a bouncer downtown (his weird name and ethnic description gave him away), and the feed back was, "oh yeah, the fake tough guy!" and another word I won't repeat here.

My Ex thinks she found her guru, someone to "lead" and "guide" her since she said I failed in that. She wrote to him "When I am with you, everything is so real, we get to the essence of things, life is simple."

I couldn't fight that type of idealization. I'm just to boring and realistic.

Add to this dynamic that many pwBPD crave emotional stimulation, and mine is certainly getting it with him. She got too much reality with me.

[seeking balance]

I strongly suggest reading all of 2010's posts and another really good member on vulnerable narcissism is Clearmind... . this hits home more than most of us probably care to admit 

[Alex86]

I couldn't fight that type of idealization. I'm just to boring and realistic.

Add to this dynamic that many pwBPD crave emotional stimulation, and mine is certainly getting it with him. She got too much reality with me.

My ex told me the same thing in a discussion about perfect love: "I don't want to leave my fantasy world behind. I want to remain a child."

Oh God, I keep reading the majority of posts and the issues are never ending. The complexity is too overwhelming.

[Jonie]

-

[Caredverymuch]

Hi CVM,

I am in a similar position. My uBPD-exbf has been together with a woman I think has NPD. She has always treated him very badly and used their children to hurt him, at their expense. They seperated several years ago, but although they both expressed to loath each other, they kept having a weird kind of contact. Then suddenly 2 years ago she denied him contact with the children. He didn’t see them for more than half a year. So he decided to do everything she asked for, in order to regain contact. This worked. Now she’s back into his life again, they share lots of time and occassions together, while they don’t even love each other or would want to have a relationship again - and I am out. One example: I always had great respect for him as a musician, but he never took notice of that. She was always demeaning on his musical qualities, but if she makes a tiny-tiny compliment, he’s intensly happy.

I think their dynamic works likes this: he has been treated badly as a child and bullied for many years at school, which left emotional scars. She did the same: she bullied him, hurted him where his scars are. So what could feel more soothing than her being kind and nice towards him now… She, on the other hand, has also been hurt as a child. And neglected by him, during their time together, which had hurt her scars from childhood. This has made her bitter and revengeful, she want to get even with him. So what could be more soothing for her than him complying to her every wish now…

Thank you for your insight and I am sorry you are experiencing a similar situation.  It's been said that the BPD/NPD coupling is a toxic dance.  It seems so. Both feeding into one anothers core wounds, fitting like a dysfunctional puzzle.  My situation appeared very similar to yours. I hope you are healing more each day.