Are some of your "normal" friends toxic too?

[bruised]

This may be off-topic for the Detaching board, but I thought it might spawn a worthwhile discussion.

My recent toxic friendship with a uBPD waif sent me scurrying to this and other forums in search of answers. I was forced to look at my own life and why I ended up completely sucked in by a BPD waif. I’ve learned a lot about myself, but my experience has also prompted me to look more closely at my “normal” friends. Countless hours of researching and reading forums has given me much more insight into mental illness. I believe I am way more attuned to detecting it now than I was a year ago.

So it occurs to me now that many of my friends have “issues”. None are as serious as my BPD ex-friend, who is clearly ill. But plenty of them seem completely miserable at times. For example:

I have one male friend who is massively passive-aggressive. Lately he seems to offend everyone he crosses paths with. He hates his job and I’m pretty sure he hates his marriage to his controlling wife too. If he keeps going the way he has been he will soon have no friends.

Another old friend started being passive aggressive with me a few months ago. He just started making snide comments out of the blue. Now he wants to be my best buddy again.

Yet another friend’s behaviour can only be described as bizarre. He will change plans at the very last minute. He will stand me up for coffee and claim he left his phone at home so he missed my calls trying to find out where he is. I organized lunch with him and his wife, but only his wife and kids turned up. He decided at the last minute to go for a jog. Then I organized a boy’s lunch with just him and his whole family turns up! I’m certain he suffers depression, but I think he may have a PD too (avoidant?). It goes without saying he has been moved into my “acquaintance” group. You can only put up with that sort of behaviour for so long. Other people have experienced his weirdness too, so I don't think it's anything to do with me.

A very old school friend started giving me the cold-shoulder recently for no reason that I could fathom. We were great friends with a huge amount in common. We’ve never said a cross word to each other- we just clicked. Then one day he wakes up and decides to terminate a 40 year friendship. He cancelled many meetings with really lame excuses. So lame they were obviously designed to offend me- seriously passive-aggressive stuff. This guy did a LOT of drugs when he was younger and told me once that he had anger-management issues. Maybe he just couldn’t keep a lid on it any longer? It’s sad.

When I think about it, passive-aggressive behaviour seems quite common among my friends. Naturally I looked at myself to see if I had done something to invite their PA behaviors. But I drew a blank. I see their PA behaviours being directed at other friends too, so it’s not just me. I have a great job and a happy life. I laugh a lot and people tell me I have a great sense of humor. Do some of my friends resent that?

I also have many great friendships that are fun and drama-free. But recent events in my life have opened my eyes to the unhappiness in many people’s lives. I give friends a lot of chances, because life can be rough sometimes. We all have bad periods in our lives, but I never take it out on my friends when I’m feeling low. I want my friends to be there for me if times get rough, so why would I try to piss them off? I don’t get it.  

Do any of you guys have friends you could do without? Or do you terminate friendships if they turn toxic? They say by middle age you should only have a couple of good friends. Maybe I’m trying to maintain too many friendships?

[foiles]

I think this is a good topic. If we put up with/fell for/are attracted to people with PDs, it make sense that if we accept that behavior from one person, we might accept it from others too, to a greater or lesser extent. Many here talk about the multiple BPDs they've had relationships with. In the Road Less Traveled, the author states that since none of us are perfect, we all have personality defects. So there are a lot of people we will come across in our lives that exhibit these traits. And we have our own. One great thing on this site is the emphasis on boundaries. When a person does things that cross our boundaries, we have to either set them clearly with the person or decide to distance ourselves from them. So, making our boundaries clear to ourselves beforehand helps. Of course, at the time i became involved with my exBPD I never dreamed that someone would cross the ones that he did. It was an extreme case and it allowed me to more clearly see myself and what happened in the past in less extreme cases.

For me, it's often a time frame thing. If someone very quickly began telling me their darkest and deepest, I was drawn in. For empathy or after encouragement, I would respond with some of my own. A 'friendship' was born. Then, after a time, when I realized that it wasn't a healthy situation, I was now in a position of having to openly set boundaries or become  a 'jerk' (to them) and distance myself. Neither is a comfortable place to be in. I've learned, I hope, in the future, to go slow with all friendships until I can assess whether this is a person I want to really become close with. Only time will tell. Knowing our boundaries up-front helps. One of mine, with myself, is not to disclose deeply personal things too quickly. This is a tactic pwBPD will use to get us enmeshed. I'll tell you mine and you tell me yours. Before you know it... . you're 'connected'. but it's not always a healthy connection and it can lead to FOG. You become 'responsible' to and for them. They aren't attracted to people that put themselves first. My exBPDbf would talk about past girlfriends who he broke up with that, when pressed, told him 'Well that's me. Take it or leave it.' He, or them, left it fairly quickly.

I have a very even keeled friend. I've noticed she's very adept at being friendly but never overly discloses. She's fun, but doesn't over-party. She has her own life activities that don't revolve around needy people. And she doesnt expect others to revolve around her. I know another person that wants everything to be about her, although she tries to get others into her circle by exaggerating ways they are the same. When her drama gets too much and people leave, those people become bad guys. Her part is minimized. 'They' weren't good friends/didn't understand her. She attempts to bully them into submission.

Maybe your statement about having just a few friends when we get older means we have a few 'close' friends that we've learned through wise experience are safe/won't push boundaries, and the rest are friendly acquaintances who may over time become close or will remain just that.

I'm learning... .

[crookedeuphoria]

I avoid toxicity and neediness like the plague. I won't watch the news, I won't go to see violent movies and being around negative people drains me so I keep myself at a distance from them whenever possible.

All the more reason that this is so baffling to me.

[bruised]

So, making our boundaries clear to ourselves beforehand helps.

This is a really good point. I've never actually decided what my boundaries are with friends. I do have boundaries, but they are fluid and depend on the nature of the relationship. I suppose that's normal, but I'm going to tighten up my boundaries from now on. I'm becoming less tolerant of manipulative, selfish or rude behaviour. The minute I sense someone is taking advantage of my goodwill I step back from them.

[talithacumi]

Toxic seems a bit harsh, but, yes, I ultimately had to admit that I was trained by my NPD/BPD mother to see myself in a certain way (useful rather than likeable/loveable), that I ended up presenting myself to others as useful (rather than likeable/loveable), attracted/was attracted to people who had some kind of use for me (the bigger/deeper, the better), and that almost all of the relationships I've ever had in my life up to this point are based to some extent on that kind of exchange.

They were comfortable. They felt familiar. They reinforced the operative belief system about myself/relationship to others I'd been given by my mom. And through them, I got the same kind of notice, interest, validation, and hope/promise of eventually being found likeable/loveable that I got from my mom as well.

I've had to do a lot of work to ferret out and fix all the problems, lies, misconceptions, illogic, and incongruities inherent in that system in order to get at the root of how I ended up with someone like my ex in the first place, what my relationship with him actually involved, and why it was (is still) so hard for me to detach.

It's changed the way I see, feel, think about, and present myself to other people - as well as the way I expect to be seen, felt, thought about, and responded to in return. I value myself in ways I never have before. I've naturally started to set/maintain boundaries that reflect, promote, and preserve what I value in myself as well which an OVERWHELMING number of both my family members and friends have questioned, fought against, ignored, dismissed, marginalized, been confused/frustrated by, and, in general, not particularly PLEASED with at all.

Some have gotten angry/punished me for it in an attempt (conscious or unconscious) to try to get me to go back to relating to them the way I did before (I don't). Others have simply given up trying, and drifted away. A select few are sticking it out, working through the changes with me, and a developing different/better/healthier kind of relationship WITH me.

I see it all as part of the same process of discovery, growth, and change taking place everywhere in my life right now.

[slimmiller]

Thank You for this topic!

I too have been/am going through a similiar spell. So many folks that I had even some connection to seem to really change to the point that I am pretty much 'friendless'  Well not really but I too just for the most part am real quick to write folks off simply because I will not tolerate even the slightest disfunctional drama and or BS. I dont have time for it. I lived so many years of BPD Hell that I WILL not accept anything that resembles it.

But on the other hand I also cant really blame some of the few folks that have flaked out on me over the last few years and the divorce. I have done some serious soul searching and reading and have discovered that part of it is me. I am not suggesting that that is the case for everyone.

I too, changed through out the while BPD and subsequent divorce. It was rough and it changed me. I think many of my friends picked up on that and the dynamics of our friendship has then shifted. Some I am probably glad to have less to do with anymore, solely for the fact that it allowed me to grow and detach from who I used to be.

I also read 'Safe People' which really opened my eyes to ME. I hate to admit the fact but I was/am not exaclty a 'safe' person as well. I never really saw that before and I had to face some of my own demons and am still working on it.

I am not 'unsafe' as in the way a PD is, but rather by being a little too empathetic (care taker traits) Something that I am still working on.

Thise traits also is what attracted my exBPD to me but thats another story

Maybe we just see friends a bit differently and they had elements of being toxic and now we see it more for what it is as we learn... . ?

Iam curious to hear more on this topic

[Red Sky]

I actually think that the friendships formed my ability to put up with unacceptable behaviour. Throughout my childhood I had a series of toxic friends, and my mother's line was always 'you have to be kind to someone from an unhappy home life.' I think I kind of internalised that over the years; I look back and think I would have told my kid to stay away... .

[Turkish]

I used to have several female friends whom I would classify as toxic. I was a platonic "rescuer" then. We were attracted to each other for that obvious reason. I got something out of it and so did they, but it was unhealthy.  I don't care how much of a "good listener" or that I'm "good with girls," as I was told. I exorcised them from my life, patted myself on the back for growing, then met my uBPDx... .

I'll admit that I am terrified of even being able to be close friends with any woman due to my poor judgment. The healthy ones I know are married anyway.

[Mutt]

I had a recent issue with my L and he quit. He was a paper pusher and was not doing his job. I called him on it and he tried to project, shift blame, distort himself on me. I started to realize that I encounter toxicity in places where I didn't see before and more frequent than I thought. I may of believed him a year ago but it didn't phase me. It's his problem not mine.

[bruised]

Fantastic responses! Keep 'em coming.

A few of you have raised points I would lie to explore in more detail. I've got a busy weekend ahead, but I'll be back!

[bruised]

Maybe we just see friends a bit differently and they had elements of being toxic and now we see it more for what it is as we learn... . ?

I think this is the crux of it for me. It's not so much that my friends have changed (although some definitely have), it's that my tolerance for manipulation and BS has diminished. My tolerance has been slowly dropping as I age and I become more comfortable in my skin. But on top of that, my recent friendship with a uBPD woman taught me a very valuable lesson about manipulation.

I won't go into details, but on one occasion she set me up so blatantly to do something for her I was dumbfounded when she asked me. I felt like I'd been slapped in the face. I was sufficiently shocked to keep a poker-face and deflect her request. This was probably the most blatant attempt at manipulation I had experienced in my life. It was a huge  and I stopped being friendly to her for a while after that. She sensed the change in me and tried very hard to win my friendship back. I forgave her and we became good friends again. For a while.

Anyway, that one event taught me to always be on the lookout for manipulation. Now if I sense the slightest whiff of manipulation from a friend, I deflect the attempt to buy myself time. I haven't become cynical, just more attuned to manipulation. When friends ask me to do them a favour but the details are vague, my "manipulation detector" goes off. I will ask for more details before committing. I have a friend who will leave a phone message asking me to call him back because he needs to talk to me. When I call back, he asks if he can borrow something. He could have left that request with his message. The reason he didn't is pure manipulation- he wanted the element of surprise. I could cite other examples, but we've all experienced these behaviours. The trick is to set boundaries to protect yourself from them. I am now doing that, albeit about 20 years too late!

[Turkish]

I have a friend who will leave a phone message asking me to call him back because he needs to talk to me. When I call back, he asks if he can borrow something. He could have left that request with his message. The reason he didn't is pure manipulation- he wanted the element of surprise

I don't know your friend, and maybe he makes a habit of this, but to me, I would consider it rude to leave a message asking to borrow something. I would want to ask, rather than put you in the position of callng me back to give an answer.

[bruised]

I actually think that the friendships formed my ability to put up with unacceptable behaviour. Throughout my childhood I had a series of toxic friends... .

That's an interesting point. In my teens my best friend was incredibly toxic. I had other friends outside of our friendship, but I was basically his only close friend. He wanted to own me. I found out too late that my other friendships suffered because I was associated with him. I am now convinced he was NPD. We fell out in spectacular fashion and I have never looked back. The day that friendship ended was like the weight of the world had lifted off my shoulders. He truly was TOXIC.  

Later I had another friend who wanted to 'own' me. He was eerily like my first friend. He wanted to be my best buddy, but loathed almost everyone else who didn't meet his standards. He was hated by many people, but we got on well until his narcissism became unbearable and we drifted apart.

I was young and inexperienced in people's ways in those days. No way would I ever let that happen again.

[bruised]

I don't know your friend, and maybe he makes a habit of this, but to me, I would consider it rude to leave a message asking to borrow something. I would want to ask, rather than put you in the position of callng me back to give an answer.

Interesting point, but I disagree. Nothing rude about leaving a message with a friend asking to borrow something. And I had to call him back anyway. I think it is about being upfront, rather than sly. Maybe I AM cynical!   

I think most my other friends would have left a message asking to borrow the item. Last week another friend sent me a text asking if he could borrow a power tool from me. I have no problem with people being up-front.

[bruised]

I'll admit that I am terrified of even being able to be close friends with any woman due to my poor judgment.

My recent friendship with an attractive uBPD waif taught me exactly the same thing.

[bruised]

I started to realize that I encounter toxicity in places where I didn't see before and more frequent than I thought.

Yeah, me too. I should be disappointed about that; but I'm not. I'm actually glad that my toxicity detectors are more finely tuned these days.

[Red Sky]

So much of this I agree with. I have to say that with the recognizing toxicity, I am a lot better. I pretty much dumped my BPDexgf before our relationship started, because after my exbf I was so attuned to negative influences. However it doesn't change the fact that for some reason I always attract waifs and strays, and always have. As for members of the opposite sex? Yep, I attract the waifs and strays AND they always seem to think I'm flirting with them.     

[Turkish]

I don't know your friend, and maybe he makes a habit of this, but to me, I would consider it rude to leave a message asking to borrow something. I would want to ask, rather than put you in the position of callng me back to give an answer.

Interesting point, but I disagree. Nothing rude about leaving a message with a friend asking to borrow something. And I had to call him back anyway. I think it is about being upfront, rather than sly. Maybe I AM cynical!   

I think most my other friends would have left a message asking to borrow the item. Last week another friend sent me a text asking if he could borrow a power tool from me. I have no problem with people being up-front.

Comparing him to your other friends, then, I'd agree. Then it boils down to your core values, and it sounds like for this, they don't align. Yeah, most of us are probably hyper alert now to boundary (value) busting, and this isn't a bad thing. You are at the point if valuing you.

I've cycled through many friends in the last 2.5 decades (I'm I'm my early 40s), but the ones that last, my brothers, are the ones that share most of my core values.

[bruised]

However it doesn't change the fact that for some reason I always attract waifs and strays, and always have.

And being bi you have twice the audience! 

As for members of the opposite sex? Yep, I attract the waifs and strays AND they always seem to think I'm flirting with them.     

Yeah, that's a guy thing. I'm guilty of that. 

[bruised]

Yeah, most of us are probably hyper alert now to boundary (value) busting, and this isn't a bad thing. You are at the point if valuing you.

Nicely put. 

[Red Sky]

However it doesn't change the fact that for some reason I always attract waifs and strays, and always have.

And being bi you have twice the audience! 

As for members of the opposite sex? Yep, I attract the waifs and strays AND they always seem to think I'm flirting with them.     

Yeah, that's a guy thing. I'm guilty of that. 

Are you guilty of flirting or of thinking people are flirting with you? I have been told that I flirt my way through my entire life. Like, it has been suggested that I have good interpersonal skills at work because I have a habit of making people feel sexy.  So I am going to assume that this is not just dudes thinking I am a flirt. And it's probably the reason that I have all these unfortunate relationships... . !

I like you calling it 'valuing you', Turkish... . I call it 'self-preservation mode', but in reality you are correct that self-worth is such an important part of keeping away from bad relationships. I have never been a person without confidence, since relationships aside I basically have a charmed life. But actually yeah, people have been using me as an emotional punchbag for as long as I can remember and I felt my role was to take it all dutifully. And actually we all deserve more than just hanging on, we deserve exactly the same rights as the other person and for some reason (probably conditioning) I have always thought myself selfish and heartless for valuing myself.

[bruised]

Are you guilty of flirting or of thinking people are flirting with you?

I have occasionally believed that a female was flirting with me when maybe she wasn't. Beer normally plays a part in this delusion! There have also been cases where the flirting was blatant, so I can't be accused of misreading it.

[foiles]

I have read that if you've been walked on in the past (allowed others to walk on you) that once you become self-aware and set boundaries, the pendulum often swings the other way and we can get a little harsh on the other end. I think this is natural until we are sure in our ability to not let others control us and if we see it, to have the courage to confront it. It's really not easy to change a lifetime of codependency or whatever.

[foiles]

But it can be done

[whirlpoollife]

I had a best girlfriend who I realize now was interested in money or take away a male friend/acquaintance away from me, yell scream degrade , but could be nice at times,  fun at times but not many. Bpd at its best.

I had friends who wanted to hear me , stop in for tea, tell me what's going on etc only to fish out info from me for their own advantage.

Same ones degraded my clothing , my achievements . At first  I took things as helpful , as they said, but that is not what a friend does to another friend in that manner.

Since we are used to abuse , friends, just as much a spouse can be abusive too because that is/was our norm.

A few words from some counseling I learned is I have a right to choose who my friends are.

I don't have to be someone's "friend" out of obligation.