So full of anxiety...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So some may have followed recent posts - exH is a bit unstable, and has been harder to deal with since going off his medication.  However, he hasn't done or said anything bad to our 2 young kids.  He only has visitation every other weekend for a night, and takes them to his relatives' place.

But our Parent Coordinator talked to his doctors and told me he went off his medication.  She said I should move for supervised visits until he gets back on.  She said his psychiatrist wants him back on the meds.

My lawyer is going to file a motion to suspend unsupervised time until he gets back on.  However, he has no record of doing anything bad in the last year and a half.  He gets angry at me and stuff, but this sounds like what a lot of people deal with.

I am wondering if this is poking the bear - he may come back and say, fine, if I get back on my meds, I want a little more parenting time, maybe a Wednesday dinner.  He doesn't have much time, so a judge may agree to that.  Then I have to deal with him more and worry more about the kids.  I feel better if we have two interrupted weeks where the kids are stable.

Or my exH may just say, no, it's a free country, I don't really need the meds.  The kids have been fine! 

I am mostly going on the PC's recommendation, but she also tends to provoke my exH during sessions.

We haven't done anything yet but will do something soon.  I am not willing to lie and say my exH has done anything bad to the kids.  But before our divorce, he did a few slightly scary things like putting them on the edge of the bed to scare me (our younger one was a tiny baby).  People say that was just to scare me, he wouldn't really hurt them.  I have a lot of anxieties.

He makes things difficult for me, saying no to routine decisions, etc.  But he also at least communicates.  After this, the communication will end.

Am I just opening a can of worms?  I do talk to my exH's brother and could reach out first and say, can we suspend visitation until your bro gets back on meds?  Court is expensive and neither of us has the money.  I also don't necessarily trust family court.  But I can't just take the recommendation that he get back on medication and not do anything about it.

Or should I just do this and see what happens?

[momtara]

So some may have followed recent posts - exH is a bit unstable, and has been harder to deal with since going off his medication.  However, he hasn't done or said anything bad to our 2 young kids.  He only has visitation every other weekend for a night, and takes them to his relatives' place.

But our Parent Coordinator talked to his doctors and told me he went off his medication.  She said I should move for supervised visits until he gets back on.  She said his psychiatrist wants him back on the meds.

My lawyer is going to file a motion to suspend unsupervised time until he gets back on.  However, he has no record of doing anything bad in the last year and a half.  He gets angry at me and stuff, but this sounds like what a lot of people deal with.

I am wondering if this is poking the bear - he may come back and say, fine, if I get back on my meds, I want a little more parenting time, maybe a Wednesday dinner.  He doesn't have much time, so a judge may agree to that.  Then I have to deal with him more and worry more about the kids.  I feel better if we have two interrupted weeks where the kids are stable.

Or my exH may just say, no, it's a free country, I don't really need the meds.  The kids have been fine! 

I am mostly going on the PC's recommendation, but she also tends to provoke my exH during sessions.

We haven't done anything yet but will do something soon.  I am not willing to lie and say my exH has done anything bad to the kids.  But before our divorce, he did a few slightly scary things like putting them on the edge of the bed to scare me (our younger one was a tiny baby).  People say that was just to scare me, he wouldn't really hurt them.  I have a lot of anxieties.

He makes things difficult for me, saying no to routine decisions, etc.  But he also at least communicates.  After this, the communication will end.

Am I just opening a can of worms?  I do talk to my exH's brother and could reach out first and say, can we suspend visitation until your bro gets back on meds?  Court is expensive and neither of us has the money.  I also don't necessarily trust family court.  But I can't just take the recommendation that he get back on medication and not do anything about it.

Or should I just do this and see what happens?

[momtara]

Ugh, waiting to hear from lawyer.  She's in court this morning. 

[ForeverDad]

Your explanation:  "The PC recommended I go to court and do this.  We have the PC for a reason.  I listened to the PC, I was not going to ignore a professional."  There, no need to justify yourself, if you felt fear for yourself, if you felt fear for your children, if you feared what might happen (this last one is very valid) - you listened to the professional!  You are going around in circles, trying to second guess yourself and getting nowhere!  Just do what the professional recommended.  Lay the blame/credit/responsibility on someone else.  That's partly what the professionals are there for.

Yes, the PC may downplay it later, nothing you can do about it, but do what you believe is right and addresses the issue.

I'm not saying you can't work your usual channels of communication with his relatives, it might create a history showing that ex can get back on medication to resolve concerns.  And it would be financially practical.  The point is that you have a boundary... .No meds or no verification of meds = no visitation.  Doing it in practice and not in court (yet) may be legally weaker path but at least it demonstrates a history of required behavior.

[momtara]

Thank you.  You are very wise as always, ForeverDad.  Honestly, insight from people here is so helpful to me, not that we should do things just because of a post, but it does give me a lot more perspective. Anyone else, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[david]

You are full of anxiety fearing what he may do to the children. He is not on his meds. He has a psychiatrist that wants him back on his meds. Is there a way to get that in writing ? Probably not since it would be a HIPA violation but it is worth bringing up in court. This would be an opportunity for ex to get that info for the courts. If he is asked the question and he says that his doc says he should be on the meds then it is game over. If he says no then the courts should ask for the info from the doc to make sure for the best interest of the children. The choice of taking the meds is up to him. If he simply refuses then there should be precautions for the best interest of the children. Supervised visitation by a court ordered supervisor may be a solution.

If the pc has a signed release from ex to get the docs records that may be the way to get it in court. It sounds like she has a release already signed since she is in communication with his doc. Can the pc write, or testify, to that fact.

I do not think the courts would give him more time unless he was able to show he is following his docs recommendations.

You can not control his actions but you can use the courts to make a ruling backing up your concerns. Your concern is reasonable.

If my ex got real help and acknowledged she has a mental health issue everything else could be worked out in a reasonable fashion. She has not and that is the issue. I look at it this way, if your ex improved, and it was obvious to you and others, things would be better. I also believe that your ex would appreciate that you did what was best for the children. That is what any "normal" parent would think.

[momtara]

Thanks David.  That means a lot.  Yes, he did sign a release to the PC - he does stuff like that when in a good mood, then won't communicate when in a bad one.  So I have walked on eggshells appropriately when I needed to, which has been how I've handled him.  Now I am doing something different, and this means I may lose a little of my ability to communicate with him in the future.  It also means he'll lose trust and some day may do something worse and no one will anticipate it because he's learned to keep quiet.  Next time he's off his meds, may not even tell his doctors, now that he knows what can happen.  That worries me.  But he has been distrustful of me before and then gone back to normal in the end.  So I guess I just have to hope.

I can't actually stop him if he decides to do something bad someday when with the kids.  Even our PC says he can be unsupervised as soon as he gets back on his meds and is stabilized.  And I have seen that medicine doesn't solve all his problems - he has BPD, although docs won't admit it.  I guess the medicine makes him tireder and less depressed.  He still imagines things.

What really alters his moods is if he thinks he and I are getting back together or not.  No medicine is strong enough to stop him from worrying that he is missing out on his home with the kids, getting older without being with us.

I think, on the whole, it will be better off this way, but I hate that I have to do this and rachet things up. 

[livednlearned]

I am mostly going on the PC's recommendation, but she also tends to provoke my exH during sessions.

I learned a lot from my PC. When she first started interacting with N/BPDx, I held my breath. She didn't walk on eggshells with him. She was fair, professional, and had excellent boundaries.

She wasn't provoking him, she just treated him like a normal person, and that enraged him. It was fascinating to see someone interact in our dynamic who had real boundaries. Is that what's happening with your PC?

Because if you truly believe your PC provokes him, then you are going to undermine the PC's recommendation. If you believe your PC is being fair, reasonable, and behaving professionally with a grown adult, then you are going to have faith in your PC's recommendations.

Honestly, given how unstable your ex is (and maybe comorbid with something else, giving that he hears voices/has delusions), I don't know how you manage your anxiety without a therapist to help you. This is the big league, momtara. Your ex is a very ill man, and he's the father of your two very young children. I have a wonderful support network, and as well-intentioned and loving as friends have been, they could not get into the deep stuff. They were almost too supportive, when what I needed was someone to point out how my own thinking was sabotaging me. This board is wonderful and all, but therapy is the only thing that will help you figure out how to manage the anxiety. Some anxiety is going to exist no matter what, this being mental illness. A lot of it is going to be your own stuff.

[KateCat]

Livednlearned's words to you are very brave. And not easy to say.

Accepting the strong possibility that your ex husband has a schizophrenia-like illness is a step you will need to take, I think.

When we interact with a family member with schizophrenia, we can over-estimate our ability either to provoke their suspicion or to reassure them. It is the sad nature of the disorder to distrust family members. :'(

I too hope you can lean on the guidance of a strong, professional advocate for the kids right now. Things may be different--and better--in the future. But this still seems like such a delicate time . . . . 

[momtara]

Yeah, I will see a shrink.  PC recommended that too.  She probably does keep good boundaries and that provokes him, but I do think she doesn't respect what's going on in his head enough.  (Even if he's delusional, he still wants to not feel completely powerless while he battles his illness, imho.)  Anyway, I filed the thing.  It had to contain some really strong language.  He is indeed very ill and I tiptoed around and now I have stopped tiptoeing.  I suppose I could have asked for more, but I did demand that he get back in treatment until released by his docs and our pc, and we have to get monthly reports and keep seeing the PC.  I didn't put any time limits in there.  Not sure when the next hearing is.  If, like livedandlearned said, they delay it, good for them - more supervised time for the kids!

It was hard doing this.  What I realized is that this is my best time to make sure he stays in treatment.  If I didn't do that, he could just stop seeing his shrink months later and I wouldn't know it.  Anyway, I did opt for the supervised time to be with his parents.

I don't know if this solves every problem, but I did what I had to.

[momtara]

I would actually prefer that he have schizophrenia or something else to just BPD, as those illnesses seem more treatable, in my opinion. 

That said, even on his medicine, he overreacts when things trigger him (mostly related to me, which is why I have to keep boundaries.)

[KateCat]

Great (tough) work this week, momtara.  You will not regret the actions you've taken.

This is just my personal experience, but it can take quite some time to understand and accept that a family member has a delusional disorder. Sounds as though you may have just bought some time (albeit at a significant price) to explore this possibility further.

Your comment about the need to "respect what's going on in his head" is very important, I think. Not to recoil from this situation but to have the grace to move into it and through it shows character and strength.

[momtara]

Thanks!

Oh, I understand he has delusions.  But delusions are possible with BPD too.  And they're generally delusions that justify things he did, so there is a reason behind them.  My mother has schizophrenia and her delusions are about people trying to kill her.  It's different.  His at least sound realistic.

I told our PC I thought he had BPD and she said, "Honey, he's way beyond the borderline."  Seemed like she was thinking of the old definition.  That said, I am not an expert.

[ForeverDad]

That said, even on his medicine, he overreacts when things trigger him (mostly related to me, which is why I have to keep boundaries.)

As it's been written in previous posts... .The closer you are emotionally or physically or relationship-wise, the worse it is.  (Conversely, time and distance help enable your recovery and moving on.)  Also, in the past you were more likely to share private settings with him where he would feel free to let it all hang out, most others only saw the fringes of his behaviors.  That's why you experience so much more of the poor behaviors than most other people.

[david]

About boundaries, they are for you. However, if you establish a firm boundary it will , over time, become the new norm. It takes a while for both people to adapt.

Several years ago I was afraid to make certain boundaries because I thought ex would use it against the kids in some way. It was pointed out to me that if I didn't change the dynamics they would stay the same. That wasn't good for our boys. I made a boundary and watched how it evolved. I kept the boundary and ex reacted to it in several ways over a period of time. Eventually she found her way of dealing with the new dynamic. My boundary stayed in place to this day.