Is there a such thing as "talking it out" how do BPDs resolve issues?

[Depression = 72% of members]

As some of you may know, I am going through some stuff right now regarding my brother and his BPD wife. We've been NC for almost 9 months. Recently my brother has spoken to some of our mutual family members and it seems he's placing the blame on me for us not speaking. I've tried reaching out to him to repair his and my relationship but I've received no answer. His wife does not want us speaking, especially if she isn't there because she's afraid I will influence him and turn him against her. He won't tell me exactly what her problem is with me but he did, at one point in time, tell me that she's "threatened by the close relationship him and I have (or should I say,had, at this point)." Also that he, "has to show her that the love he has for us (my mother and myself) is different from the love he has for her and there's enough to go around.". I'm having trouble understanding why a 39 year old woman needs that explained to her. He has also told my mom she is not willing to sit down and have a discussion with me without some type of mediator, being present (such as a therapist). That was said a long time ago and much more has happened since then.

Him and I did resolve our issue. He sort of apologized but and I accepted it. As far as his wife goes however, we have never sat down and talked. Well ok one time we did when she showed up at my home unannounced at 10:00pm on a weeknight to "resolve" our issues, aka she basically she just  projected all the blame away from herself and onto my brother. I am the type of person who needs to discuss issues in order to move past them. I think many people share that way of thinking. I'm not one who's fond of ignoring the pink elephant in the room. It does no good. I can't sit around and pretend I wasn't wronged by someone. I need to know the reason why. She was not interested in having any type of discussion about her bad behavior and instead of improving her argument, she raised her voice and just kept repeating, "this isn't why I came here, I didn't want to discuss anything.". She wants us to just  accept her and accept the crappy things she's done and forget the 9 months of torture she has put us through.

I want to prove a point to people and I have been thinking, maybe its time someone be the bigger person in the situation and try one more time to see if she's willing to have an open and honest discussion about this, in hopes of getting some resolve. 

My question is, hypothetically speaking of course, if I were to get her to sit down and have an open and honest discussion is an open an honest discussion even a possibility? Are BPD's able to resolve issues with other people? Is their idea of "discussion", having an all out argument? Is there any resources on the internet or any books that can prepare you for arguing with this type of argument? I know that may be a silly question but I'm really lost here.

Although I suspect my high school boyfriend was suffering from BPD, in my adult life, I've never dealt with a person like this. especially in this dynamic, where I'm not suffering their abuse, first hand. I think its different when the BPD doesn't have the upper hand because they have no control over you. I'm just afraid of making things even worse than they already are but at this point I'm sick of dealing with this $h!t!

[Youcantfoolme]

As some of you may know, I am going through some stuff right now regarding my brother and his BPD wife. We've been NC for almost 9 months. Recently my brother has spoken to some of our mutual family members and it seems he's placing the blame on me for us not speaking. I've tried reaching out to him to repair his and my relationship but I've received no answer. His wife does not want us speaking, especially if she isn't there because she's afraid I will influence him and turn him against her. He won't tell me exactly what her problem is with me but he did, at one point in time, tell me that she's "threatened by the close relationship him and I have (or should I say,had, at this point)." Also that he, "has to show her that the love he has for us (my mother and myself) is different from the love he has for her and there's enough to go around.". I'm having trouble understanding why a 39 year old woman needs that explained to her. He has also told my mom she is not willing to sit down and have a discussion with me without some type of mediator, being present (such as a therapist). That was said a long time ago and much more has happened since then.

Him and I did resolve our issue. He sort of apologized but and I accepted it. As far as his wife goes however, we have never sat down and talked. Well ok one time we did when she showed up at my home unannounced at 10:00pm on a weeknight to "resolve" our issues, aka she basically she just  projected all the blame away from herself and onto my brother. I am the type of person who needs to discuss issues in order to move past them. I think many people share that way of thinking. I'm not one who's fond of ignoring the pink elephant in the room. It does no good. I can't sit around and pretend I wasn't wronged by someone. I need to know the reason why. She was not interested in having any type of discussion about her bad behavior and instead of improving her argument, she raised her voice and just kept repeating, "this isn't why I came here, I didn't want to discuss anything.". She wants us to just  accept her and accept the crappy things she's done and forget the 9 months of torture she has put us through.

I want to prove a point to people and I have been thinking, maybe its time someone be the bigger person in the situation and try one more time to see if she's willing to have an open and honest discussion about this, in hopes of getting some resolve. 

My question is, hypothetically speaking of course, if I were to get her to sit down and have an open and honest discussion is an open an honest discussion even a possibility? Are BPD's able to resolve issues with other people? Is their idea of "discussion", having an all out argument? Is there any resources on the internet or any books that can prepare you for arguing with this type of argument? I know that may be a silly question but I'm really lost here.

Although I suspect my high school boyfriend was suffering from BPD, in my adult life, I've never dealt with a person like this. especially in this dynamic, where I'm not suffering their abuse, first hand. I think its different when the BPD doesn't have the upper hand because they have no control over you. I'm just afraid of making things even worse than they already are but at this point I'm sick of dealing with this $h!t!

[HappyChappy]

she's "threatened by the close relationship him and I have (or should I say,had, at this point)." Also that he, "has to show her that the love he has for us (my mother and myself) is different

My question is, hypothetically speaking of course, if I were to get her to sit down and have an open and honest discussion is an open an honest discussion even a possibility?

I understand it's frustrating being closed out by your brother's BPD partner. It's only natural you would want to do all you can to mend that broken link. However please be warned, it can be dangerous to confront a BPD over their trickery.

A BPD has two primary fears 1) Fear of being revealed (for their BPD trickery) 2) Fear of Abandonment. So to avoid abandonment they cut out the competition, they isolate their partner. Standard practice.  Also if you want to sit down and discuss why they do this, they will get defensive (dangerous in extreme cases) they certainly won't admit to it. There are law cases I know, where a BPD has lied in court to cover up a lie of no criminal consequence, only to be incarcerated for perjury (Jeffry Archer for one).  They will continue the lie once incarcerated. A BPD can ignore the risk to themselves and others in order to win .

You might want to consider the section in this forum that talks about how to approach a BPD. Using carefully considered approach such as S.E.T. etc... .(non confrontational).  Or maybe encourage your bro to watch movies about Narcissist, maybe something will twig . Best of luck.

[Linda Maria]

Hi there!  Just my opinion but I don't hold out much hope for "talking things out" with a BPD.  That's what healthy reasonable people do.  I kept thinking with my uBPDsis that if I could just prove to her that I hadn't done or said the things she was accusing me of, then things would calm down.  I thought if I ignored all the nasty stuff, held out olive branches etc. we could move on.  But all my attempts just sparked more abuse and nastiness and lies.  When I realised she didn't want to be friends, and was clearly getting some sort of reward from creating all this havoc, I stopped trying and went NC.  It was months later I found out about BPD - but that just means that as well as not wanting to make peace - she's probably not capable of it, so it changes the way I feel - i.e. I am more sympathetic, but it doesn't change the reality or the outcome and I am still NC as far as possible.  You are looking for answers and resolution and to make things better - all noble intentions - but I really don't think you will get them by trying to talk things out, the only way you will get peace is to find a way of accepting it is what it is, and take steps to get the stress out of your life, and try to let go of the frustration and anger.  I know it's not easy - I still think about it a lot, but at least I'm not popping headache pills, and indigestion pills, and being insomniac and hyper sensitive like I was for most of last year.  Good luck with it.  Feel for you.  JB

[Youcantfoolme]

Wow this is giving me no hope! Lol! These are he responses I was pretty much expecting. I guess if she wanted to have an open and honest discussion, one would have occurred already. I guess I'm having trouble accepting the fact that there's something seriously wrong with this girl, that she has a personality disorder and that her disorder controls her life. I heard her when she argues because she always lies and twists things around so my mom recorded a discussion they had a whole back because she was sick of all the crazy making! Sure enough on the recording you hear her tell my mom that she went to the store to try on the dress I was planning on wearing to their wedding! She started an epic battle over this dress. That's pretty much why my brother and I haven't spoken in 9 months! Anyway she clearly states that she went to try on the dress. She says it not once, but twice! Once she saw my moms reaction, that she thought it was a little crazy my mom asked why she would do that, and she quickly changed the subject and didn't answer her. A week after that fight, she denied ever having said that AT ALL! She say there and argued with my mom about it too! My mom was so mad and couldn't tell her she had evidence that she actually did say it. She even had my brother lying for her! A few weeks later her story changed once again this time she admitted going into the store and just happening to see the dress but she claims she only held it up to her!

Anyway I've read about SET a little bit, when another poster suggested it. I'm not sure how to apply it in this situation.

HAPPYCHAPPY, can you refer me to any movies about narcissism? I'm interested in watching them myself. Before my brother had suggested BPD, I was 100% convinced she was a narc. I still think she is but when I finay read about BPD, it was like the clouds seperated and I could finay see the light!

[Linda Maria]

Hi!  No - there is always hope - the positive things happen when you accept that you cannot change someone else unless they want to change.  Doesn't mean you give up - doesn't mean if something changes down the line - they realise they have a problem and are willing to get help- that you can't  help them then, but I think you may be thinking that if you have the open and honest chat, then she will see that she is in the wrong and that will make you feel better.  It would of course - and that's what I wanted from my uBPDsis.  It wasn't until I finally understood she is not capable of that - at least for now - that I realised that it was up to me to make myself feel better - and for me that was by going NC - to get the day to day stress out of my life - and to stop feeling guilty, that it was somehow my fault, that I should be doing something etc.  My default position is always to reach out and make things better if possible, even if it's at a personal cost, and it was a big thing to accept that this time I can't.  But I feel so much better having the madness, for the most part, out of my life, or at a much bigger distance psychologically.  Don't waste time feeling bad about something you are not responsible for, and can't control.  JB

[jdtm]

 

Is there a such thing as "talking it out"

You're kidding - aren't you?  I believed at one time that if I said the right thing, did the right thing, thought the right thing - that I could "reason" and "help" the BPD person in my life.  Nope - the only person whom I could help was ME.  Any of the above (talking, doing, thinking) are just asking for trouble (and the trouble will be yours).  Frankly, avoidance worked for me.  Sad, isn't it?

[Youcantfoolme]

How horrible that these people can't communicate properly. Looking at it on a deeper level, it must be torture to be inside their heads. I wonder if they know what they've done wrong and feel guilt at the same time, but even more, does the fact that they're lying about it, make it even worse?

What makes my situation especially difficult is that the person with BPD isn't really the person I care to mend a relationship with. To be honest, I don't want ANY type of relationship with her. I do however, want my brother in my life and it seems the only way I will be able to ever see him again, is to try to at least make some sort of amends with his BPD wife. The more I think about it, the more dumbfounded I become. If my brother is willing to "forgive me", then that should be good enough for her. I could never imagine telling my husband he's forbidden to have a relationship with anyone in his family.

She thinks I owe her an apology of some sort and I'm sorry to say but she better not hold her breath waiting for one! She's mad at a "reaction" I had to something that she did to me! It makes no sense at all! I wouldn't have had any reaction had she not started something with me in the first place!

I'm just incredibly sad. I have dealt with enough loss in my life. I feel like my brother died, like I'm mourning him. It feels almost worse in a way because I have no closure.

[Angi]

I am afraid she is sort of envious and she won´t understand that your relationship is different from the relationship between her and your brother. It seems as if your brother is co-dependant and doesn´t manage to make clear to her that he wants to see his sister from time to time without giving her the feeling you are more important for him than she is (which is in my opinion the main reason). I mean: Not your brother is giving her this feeling, it´s just the way she sees it. Perhaps you can contact your brother without her knowing (as not to make her more envious) and speak to him about everything. Do you think your brother could somehow (carefully) guide her into a direction to perhaps start a therapy (you said BPD was diagnosed?) I know that won´t be easy and it is also a difficult situation for your brother. I assume that he would also like to keep up the contact to you and also might have some other problems with his wife. That is going to be a long process, but don´t give up! And don´t give up trying to talk to your brother. It´s a bit of a balance between not breaking her confidence (or rather not making it even worse) and to carry through your own wishes - at least at the moment ... .

[mywifecrazy]

My question is, hypothetically speaking of course, if I were to get her to sit down and have an open and honest discussion is an open an honest discussion even a possibility? Are BPD's able to resolve issues with other people?

Two things that pwBPD are not and that's being open and honest. At least that's my experience with my uBPDxw.

I've read several of your posts and I'm familiar with you your situation. IMHO I think you're a threat to your BPD sister in law because you're a risk of exposing her for who she is. You're a threat because you may help your brother see through her BPD Bull$hit and she may lose her control over him. That's why they isolate people they are manipulating. It happened to me and it took 20 yrs to get my head out of the FOG. I feel sorry for your brother, They are such master deceivers that they can turn family member against family member to get what they want. My uBPDxw even tries to manipulate my 14yr old boy with lies about me. Someday she is going to slip up and your brother is going to be exposed to the truth about her and it's going to make his head SPIN!

Good luck to you.

MWC... .

[Angi]

sort of envious

I mixed up "envious" and jealousy - I know it sound stupid if your his sister

[Lolster]

Can you sit down and discuss/resolve this?  My honest experience is no.  Even if you found yourself in the same room and played the recording where she twice states she tried the dress on, YOU will of course have took her too literally. But it's unlikely you'd get that chance as she already realises you could blow her bs existence wide open for your brothers eyes.  If you did get the chance to do that she would then use it as 'evidence' of what a disgusting creature you are to your brother, and insist that he stays further away from you than ever.

[yogibear60]

All I tell is my story.  I tried the open and honest approach on my BPD mother and she used it all against me.  I also tried confronting her with every lie and checking out everything that she said for "facts"  It lead to her becoming more vicious and in tolerant.  It also lead to what I believe was as a psychotic break for her.   Someone else posted to be careful about confronting and while I was using my "best wisdom" at the time.  It did nothing but raise the bar of conflict between the two of us.  My thoughts are with you

[HappyChappy]

HAPPYCHAPPY, can you refer me to any movies about narcissism?

Movies with NPD characters:

Gaslight (which is where the term comes from); Grey Gardens; Coraline; Mommie Dearest; Harold and Maude; White Oleander; Precious; Matilda; Ever After - A Cinderella Story; Flowers In The Attic; September; Mildred Pierce; Whatever Happened To Baby Jane?; Gone With The Wind (Scarlett O'Hara is a total narcissist); The Little Foxes; Mermaids; Ordinary People; East Of Eden; American Beauty; Sybil; The Devil Wears Prada; The Prince Of Tides; Like Water For Chocolate; Rebel Without A Cause; Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood; Empire Falls; Postcards From The Edge; Four Christmases; A Streetcar Named Desire; Dead Poets' Society; Terms of Endearment.

Three sit coms to see: Everyone loves Raymond (mother is BPD). 2 and a half men (NPD mum) and a golden child played by Charlie Sheen (believed to be NPD in real life). Absolutely Fabulous (BPD Histionic mom, put upon sensible daughter).

Mind you, my BPDm has sat and whatched a sitcome with a character we all thought she was like. She liked it until we all pointed out the mom was like her. Then she did a big strop, and decided it wasn't funny at all. Kept talking all the way through until we had to change over - you know the drill. So don't expect the BPD to acknowlage a similiarity, but hopefully bro will twig.  

[Angi]

Oh dear, I am still following your story and l feel very sorry. I can't imagine there is nothing you can do, but to be there for your brother when he should need you. And otherwise perhaps just give him some time. I really hope for you both that you don't have to face the possability of losing contact. Perhaps he just needs some time to realize himself, and the fact that he has started a therapy shows he knows something is going wrong.

[Youcantfoolme]

Thank you Angi. As of right now I have accepted that there is nothing I can do to try to fix the situation with him. As for the therapy, yes it is a good sign. I just hope he's going there and being 100% honest with the therapist. I remember r being with my BPD ex and there was so many things I was ashamed that I was putting up with that I just couldn't bring myself to sharing with ANYONE! That and there was a whole paranoia factor. It didn't matter who I was speaking with, I wouldn't even tell a priest some of the stuff because I was terrified that my ex would somehow find out. Even if I knew the chances of him finding out were slim to none I'd still have that little bit of fear that would hold me back.

[Leelou]

she's "threatened by the close relationship him and I have (or should I say,had, at this point)." Also that he, "has to show her that the love he has for us (my mother and myself) is different

My question is, hypothetically speaking of course, if I were to get her to sit down and have an open and honest discussion is an open an honest discussion even a possibility?

I understand it's frustrating being closed out by your brother's BPD partner. It's only natural you would want to do all you can to mend that broken link. However please be warned, it can be dangerous to confront a BPD over their trickery.

A BPD has two primary fears 1) Fear of being revealed (for their BPD trickery) 2) Fear of Abandonment. So to avoid abandonment they cut out the competition, they isolate their partner. Standard practice.  Also if you want to sit down and discuss why they do this, they will get defensive (dangerous in extreme cases) they certainly won't admit to it. There are law cases I know, where a BPD has lied in court to cover up a lie of no criminal consequence, only to be incarcerated for perjury (Jeffry Archer for one).  They will continue the lie once incarcerated. A BPD can ignore the risk to themselves and others in order to win .

You might want to consider the section in this forum that talks about how to approach a BPD. Using carefully considered approach such as S.E.T. etc... .(non confrontational).  Or maybe encourage your bro to watch movies about Narcissist, maybe something will twig . Best of luck.

I agree totally, trying to confront - no point.  Reason doesn't work.  Support your brother by being non judgemental.  You know your truth, let that be enough. You don't need to validate yourself.  One day your brother will need you - give him a hug

[Blimblam]

There are coping strategies to better deal with them. But ultimately it comes down to addressing core wounds. That is something they have to decide to Adress on their own. It is the same for us also. The pain we experience dealing with someone with these issues exposes us to out own underlying issues. We can choose to Adress our own core issues or rely on coping strategies.