BPD and Sex

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I was reflecting recently with my therapist on the last recycle of my relationship with my ex-BPDgf. I spoke to my T a lot about the sex my ex-BPDgf and I had. First, like many describe here, it was fabulous, and continued to be so for the 5 years or so of our relationship.

Then, in the last (and final) recycle, which lasted a few months, my ex-BPDgf wanted to "sleep" together, naked, but no sex... .she wanted to be cuddle, some very un-inspired kisses, lots of "I love yous" and that's it. There were even late night booty calls to me, but of the kind of intimacy I just described. She said several times that she needed to feel "safe" and like she could trust me before we started having sex again. Feeling safe was definitely an issue for her, though it had to do with her own past; indeed, if anyone should have felt unsafe in our relationship, it was me. Yet, there I was, like a pathetic lap dog... .

Anyway, what I'm wondering is whether anyone experienced anything like this?... .this kind of masochistic withholding of sex, to which, I played a role, until I realized that this was one big, screwed up situation that was making me feel enormously insecure about myself. It was fairly clear that, during this time, if I proved myself to be the "good guy," then maybe she'd reward me with something more sexually. Of course, no matter how much of a "good guy" I was, tending to her every need, more sexual intimacy never arrived.

Even now I can't believe I went along with this for several months. That said, it was part of the larger process in finding myself, my own voice, my own needs, and some hard-earned perspective that helped me to realize people in healthy relationships don't use sex as a manipulative tool, conscious or not, to reward and punish.

[ConverseHome]

I was reflecting recently with my therapist on the last recycle of my relationship with my ex-BPDgf. I spoke to my T a lot about the sex my ex-BPDgf and I had. First, like many describe here, it was fabulous, and continued to be so for the 5 years or so of our relationship.

Then, in the last (and final) recycle, which lasted a few months, my ex-BPDgf wanted to "sleep" together, naked, but no sex... .she wanted to be cuddle, some very un-inspired kisses, lots of "I love yous" and that's it. There were even late night booty calls to me, but of the kind of intimacy I just described. She said several times that she needed to feel "safe" and like she could trust me before we started having sex again. Feeling safe was definitely an issue for her, though it had to do with her own past; indeed, if anyone should have felt unsafe in our relationship, it was me. Yet, there I was, like a pathetic lap dog... .

Anyway, what I'm wondering is whether anyone experienced anything like this?... .this kind of masochistic withholding of sex, to which, I played a role, until I realized that this was one big, screwed up situation that was making me feel enormously insecure about myself. It was fairly clear that, during this time, if I proved myself to be the "good guy," then maybe she'd reward me with something more sexually. Of course, no matter how much of a "good guy" I was, tending to her every need, more sexual intimacy never arrived.

Even now I can't believe I went along with this for several months. That said, it was part of the larger process in finding myself, my own voice, my own needs, and some hard-earned perspective that helped me to realize people in healthy relationships don't use sex as a manipulative tool, conscious or not, to reward and punish.

[LettingGo14]

She said several times that she needed to feel "safe" and like she could trust me before we started having sex again. Feeling safe was definitely an issue for her, though it had to do with her own past;

Hello ConverseHome -- I think this concept of pwBPD expressing a need to be "safe" (but not really knowing how to be safe) is one shared across the spectrum.   I think your example is a very clear manifestation of it -- you soothed her in the moment of her need.   

It was fairly clear that, during this time, if I proved myself to be the "good guy," then maybe she'd reward me with something more sexually.

I've always struggled to unlock a puzzle of carrots and sticks used by pwBPD.  The more I see, the more I think it's not really carrots and sticks.   It's just whatever works in their moment of need.  I know many of us feel "used" after the relationship, and I get it.  But, I'm also learning that the "feelings are facts" perspective of pwBPD makes a rational consideration of their actions nearly impossible.  It's like trying to divine the path of a feather blown by gusts of wind.

indeed, if anyone should have felt unsafe in our relationship, it was me. Yet, there I was, like a pathetic lap dog... .

Please be kind to yourself.  No more using pathetic lap dog.  You are a person capable of love and deep emotion, and reflection.  And that's a good starting place. 

[ConverseHome]

So many wise points here, LettingGo14, and I thank you for them.

Indeed, being kind and compassionate with myself has always been the hardest part of this process. As has been the need to divine the "feelings equal facts" thought process of my ex-BPDgf. Some of this is passing as I'm focusing much of my reflection time on me. That is, what role did I play and why? Why did I need to prove myself over and again, as this holding out physical intimacy to me as a so-called carrot was just one (and perhaps an extreme) example of the many dances that I danced with my ex, until I removed myself from the dance floor.

Still, this one has been more difficult to process, as it left me feeling so very inadequate and insecure about myself sexually and, with it, my ability to express all parts of my emotional self with my partner. This will get better with time, which so far, along with a lot (I mean a lot) of "me" time and self-reflection, has been key to moving forward, even if the path has been far from linear.

[topknot]

Yes, it was very odd. Sorry to be graphic,  but he never wanted to touch me below the waist in any way, unless it was a "reward", and he let me know that.  He wanted everything done to him. The only thing he really liked was constantly playing with my breasts. I know he was molested repeatedly by his mother,  and that behavior seriously creeped me out. Once I addressed what was up with our issue of nothing below the waist for me. He said, " Because that would be INTIMATE... ."

[LettingGo14]

That is, what role did I play and why? Why did I need to prove myself over and again... .

I am a big fan of self-inquiry (i.e., "the only zen one finds on the tops of mountains is the zen you bring with you... ."   However, one thing I've learned in my process of self-inquiry is this:

The dance begins slowly, and seductively.  And, over time, when we are in the "thick" of it, we suddenly feel trapped in a spider web, and we think, "ugh. stupid me, how could I have done this... .dumb, dumb, dumb... ."   But, really, what has happened is that we became "conditioned" to act & react.  I think of it as Pavlovian.  The good news is that the "habits" -- formed because we want to keep peace, or remain sane -- are no longer needed when the dance ends.   And, while we might have lingering shame for things done or said, we can (and should) forgive ourselves, and move forward with awareness.  

... .even if the path has been far from linear.

Yes, it's a process, and not a switch.  Fall down 53 times, get up 54.  I taped that one to my mirror for a while.

[freedom33]

Lettinggo is right. It is very Pavlofian and it happens with intermittent reinforcement. It is really powerful stuff. I also can attest to the issue of safety and of withholding sex.

The first time she mentioned 'wow... .this doesn't feel safe' was when I was complaining to her about something - probably minor. At first I couldn't understand what she meant by that safe thing. I mean why would she feel unsafe we were just having a civilised argument. Then she left me sitting there which actually made me feel completely desperate i.e. I felt as I was kind of a monster. That was torturous and the whole combo of shame and abandonment took off old scabs of mine and brought abandonment wounds in the surface. She 'd keep repeating this until I became relatively desensitised about it.

The same with sex - she started withholding and then after some time I stopped caring and she 'd get upset about me not seeking her or getting upset about it - perhaps thinking I was having sex with someone else or smth.

People are objects in a BPD world. Good or bad objects. The former to be used, clinged to and possessed the latter to be pushed aside and punished.

[workinprogress]

Yes, it was very odd. Sorry to be graphic,  but he never wanted to touch me below the waist in any way, unless it was a "reward", and he let me know that.  He wanted everything done to him. The only thing he really liked was constantly playing with my breasts. I know he was molested repeatedly by his mother,  and that behavior seriously creeped me out. Once I addressed what was up with our issue of nothing below the waist for me. He said, " Because that would be INTIMATE... ."

This reminds me of our marriage.  She gave me oral all of the time dating/first few years of marriage.  Then, one day it just stopped.

It was very strange and puzzling to me.  It also really wrecked my confidence because she had always said how much she loved it, then she started saying that she didn't like it anymore.

Then, one time years later I got the confidence up to ask for oral again.  She simply said, "but you're my husband.  Married people don't do that."

[maric]

How much time for you until the withholding began?

[merlin4926]

The sex used to be great but gradually he became v selfish. When we split up we continued as friends with benefits but he always tried to make out it was me who initiated it even though it was always him.

When he went from my bed straight to his 'new friends bed' and then text me, asked me to look after his dog and go get his medication etc etc I told him we were done. Immediately I became nothing but a "slut". It hurt but I hold on to the fact I slept with him because I loved him he slept with me because he was a user. Doesn't say much about his new friend either but that's for him to deal with. Very painful though that it ended finally once and for all like that

[workinprogress]

How much time for you until the withholding began?

About 6 years in. 

[Lion Fire]

My experience with sex and my BPDexgf was different to any other relationship I ever had.

She was predatory, forceful and demanding with sex to the point where I felt so uncomfortable and pressured that I would dread "intimacy". It felt like I was on stage somehow and that every performance was graded. As time passed her insults became worse which made me shut down even more.

She did not get to the point of witholding sex because I almost never initiated anything. I know she would have at some stage though. She could not withold because I wasn't asking for it.

The fact that I wasn't "obsessed" with her sexually (her own words) drove her crazy and triggered all kinds of insecurities in her. I know that men before me where so caught up with her sexually that they became captured.  I am grateful that I never got hooked on this level. She labelled me as sexually dysfunctional and even gay. The truth is that she was so warped and intimidating in this area that I could not open up.

She shared a few stories about her past that disturbed me. I asked her not to tell me a thing about her past again. I knew that there were dark secrets that I did not have to or want to know.

After we split, I had a brief convo with an ex of hers who is an acquaintance of mine, he told me that she had "f****d me up sexually". He had to go to trauma counselling. That's when I knew for sure she was very ill and that I wasn't a such freak or wimp 

She is a very beautiful woman but she just didn't do it for me sexually because I sensed great danger.

[freedom33]

Lion Fire - your ex reminds me a bit of mine with the difference that I did end up being controlled by me ex through sex for a while. Sex was used as a means for control. First she showered me with it. We spent literally entire weekends in bed. I have very high sex drive so this was a HUGE hook for me and THE main tool of control the first few months. She also shared some really disturbing stories about her sexual past that scared the ___ out of me.

I was sex bombed really at the start and then she started withholding sex and contact overall. If something annoyed her she 'd push me away by withholding sex and contact. She 'd cancel on plans to meet, come and stay at mine etc. I realise now that this is my achillees heel - so this is something positive that came out.

This withholding probably started in month 3-4 (total rs 14 months) and if we had sex it would be whenever she wanted and on her terms. When I was initiating I was constantly being rejected.  There was usually some ailment, belly, headache, busy, tired you name it.  And if it happened then she 'd need to be in control - that was a prerequisite for her in order to climax. And even when she did I am not sure if it was actually genuine or not.

What got me unhooked in the end was to be able to see how fake the whole thing was and her intention was to dominate and control me. I saw this attitude in her from the start of our rs. Even when I was literally in heaven I could see this and I told her 'where power is, love is not' after we had sex once. She did not say anything. I saw the signs and sensed the danger but I thought that I could have taught her how to love or maybe that my love would enough for both.

Later in the relationship I 'd just observe her giving this big sex show and learned to see under the mask the insubstantiality of it all. That's when the whole thing was demystified and it lost its power over me.   I feel I have come out a lot stronger.

[Indyan]

Sex with (stbx?) BPD bf has always been amazing.

In the beginning it didn't seem to matter who initiated it. But a few months later (once we moved in together) he started pushing me away whenever I came close to him physically in bed (even just lying close to him or kissing). That really puzzled and shocked me, as none of my exbfs had ever acted this way to me, rather the opposite. I tend to be a little shy, so whenever I initiated contact, my bfs would be delighted.

He said then that I had a problem with rejection.

I knew nothing about BPD then, so I remained puzzled and insecure.

Subsequently I learnt by talking to wives and gfs of BPDs that that was a common behaviour in BPDs and tried to adapt, but found it hard sometimes.

We made love only about twice a month (too many crisis I guess), it still was amazing, but it was only when he felt like it and initiated it. I felt somewhat used but his ways were just so "perfect" that I could never resist.

Until this summer. I went through hell : betrayal (attorney behind my back), rejection, hatred, left me before holidays and spent the summer with his parents, made them tell over the phone "it was over" etc.

And after a month or so, we spent a day together with the kids and the night that followed made love again. It was amazing again, and I despised myself for getting so easily hooked, as he left me again the next day to go back to his family... .

This happened 3 times, including back from hols in our house (making love and then leaving to go back to parents), and the last time (2 weeks ago) I felt it was really destroying me inside.

I decided to stay away from any physical contact until situation clears up. 

[hergestridge]

The first time she mentioned 'wow... .this doesn't feel safe' was when I was complaining to her about something - probably minor. At first I couldn't understand what she meant by that safe thing. I mean why would she feel unsafe we were just having a civilised argument.

You were her conflict-free safe haven in a dangerous world, and suddenly that illusion burst. That's what happened.

Been there, done that. For me, the thing you described happened ten years into our relationship when I started  to say "no" for the first time instead of just letting things be. But we were becoming adults, about to start a family, I couldn't tiptoe round her forever.

The same with sex - she started withholding and then after some time I stopped caring and she 'd get upset about me not seeking her or getting upset about it - perhaps thinking I was having sex with someone else or smth.

My xwife's therapist suggested scheduled sex to avoid this, and think it worked for a while. But I think my wife got cheesed off because it was like me getting "freebies" without having to do the work.

But I don't think courtship does any good to a person with BPD. They get stuck in the doubt/"does he really love me" thing.

I still have nightmare about the long nights will candles, movies and nice food that ends half way when my wife just hurled off to bed without a word.

That only thing that really worked seemed to be "... .let's do it!" and then straight on sex, but that made her feel "cheap", so there really was no right way to do it. Just like with all other things in our relationship.

[workinprogress]

Indyan, many hugs and much sympathy for you.

[freedom33]

I still have nightmare about the long nights will candles, movies and nice food that ends half way when my wife just hurled off to bed without a word.

You just reminded me one of the biggest red flags. I was about 3-4 weeks in the rs and we went for free camping at a wonderful beach in Scotland last summer. The temperature was extremely high and rare for Scotland, our own little private sandy beach, just perfect. I got us some wood, cooked in the fire etc. etc. At some point while things were ok and we were sitting beside the fire chatting she abruptly said she had a headache and that she was tired and just went off to sleep.

It seemed sudden and abrupt to me. I tried to be understanding but I had a moment of 'what a shame not sharing all this special moment with her'. I shrugged it off as I wasn't attached with her yet so didn't bother me much and enjoyed the remainder of the evening solo.

[Indyan]

My xwife's therapist suggested scheduled sex to avoid this,

 

[Indyan]

Indyan, many hugs and much sympathy for you.

Thanks  

[hergestridge]

My xwife's therapist suggested scheduled sex to avoid this,

 

It's not as strange as it sounds. My exwife described the situation to her therapist; that she had trouble "getting in the mood", but once she went it for it, it was always great and made her feel good.

I think some people with ADHD and similar conditions sometimes get the same recommendation. Lack on focus and concentrations keep them from getting "in the mood", which can (esp for females) mean that they stop having sex altogether unless they feel it spectacularly rewarding. I e they won't be motivated for vanilla sex with hubby because the idea in itself does not arouse them. They can't think one step further - that they will be aroused and having great sex fantasies once in bed with boring hubby.

If a stranger hit on my wife I could look forward to an amazing couple of weeks sexually.

Another habit we had was booking nights at swingers clubs (which we never attended) or looking at swinger sites for other couples we could hook up with. Part of the game was to pretend we was actually going to go through with the plans. This really got her going.

[nolisan]

Sex ... .a bit of a painful recall for me.

Our sex life was good - a few times a week. Friday night was a given.

Then one Friday night we went to bed and I initiated.

"No ... .don't."

"But baby ... It's Friday"

"No ... .it's after midnight so it's Saturday"

That was the end of our sex life. The r/s went on for a few months. Sleeping together but no intimacy.

Why? She told me she had become "sexually anorexic" but wouldn't talk about it. I figured it was something about me and I felt lousy.

Later she admitted that it was part of her manipulation (to get me to sell my house and buy hers).

In our last, week long, recycle she came on to me but I didn't engage. Glad I didn't. I knew I was done.

[AlonelyOne]

Aspects of my interaction. First off, my S2BX and I were the first intercourse for each other. Both had fooled around a little bit with other partners prior.

When we were courting, she was very agressive with sex, groping in public, made me feel very desirable.

Then 6 months in came pregnancy and things shifted. I figured it was just that... .but they never quite came back to that first era. We could still have some really great sex. 

A few years in, I started to feel neglected. I was giving, doing foreplay, etc. And rarely was it reciprocated. If I ever tried to give her feedback, I would basically be told "well if you don't like it, I'll won't ever do it again"... .so basically shut up and take what I give you.  It was also very hard to solicit feedback from her on whether what I was doing was pleasurable or not, how it could be better. 

Later when things were opened up, she expressed that part of the issue with us and sex was that well, she didn't feel as closely attached to me, nor was I new.  So it made it less of an interest for her than her other lovers.

And of course, anything I said about her sexually was taken as a slight. When things were distant and I expressed wanting more interaction during intimacy (as just lying there for sex and not touching me was more akin to just masturbating inside of someone than having sex), she became offended. Exclaimed that I had sex with her was bad and so why have it.

Meanwhile, on many levels she made sex, especially any reciprication of oral sex, seem like such a disgusting chore.  Made me feel undesirable on a regular basis.  But if I did or said something just once, it was a horrendous offense, yet her actions were not. 

Furthermore, I tried to explain to her that since she was rarely ever initiating. That it forced me in the position of asking, and being rejected repeatedly and the emotional toll this took. At some points I was even refused things as simple as a kiss good-night.

The worst is when I would tell her "I love you" and she'd reply with some comment like "What's that mean? What's that mean to you? Are you sure? Why? How do you love me?"

During those times I could even tell her I loved her without her trying instigate a conflict. (Though she affirmedly believes that I like to bring up issues like the return of premarital property she stole, just so I could have something to complain and argue about? *facepalm*)

[Indyan]

At some points I was even refused things as simple as a kiss good-night.

Oh yes, a few months ago he told me that I was a glu-pot just because I kissed good night 

[Bak86]

In the 4 months we were together we haven't had sex once. Everything was fine, except below the belt. She told me after our 4th date that she was abused and she didn't know how long it could take for her to have sex with me(took her 2 years(!) before she had sex with her ex she said). Well, turned out we would never have sex. I tried many times to warm her up for it, but every time i would try to do more, she would back off instantly. She would get aroused easily and was sexual so this made me doubt my sanity. Being the mr nice guy that i was, i once even apologized after when i had my hand in her pants and she would grab my hand in panic. She didn't like that i apologized. I thought she would change, but she wouldn't.

When she broke up with me, she accused me of wanting to have sex with her(well duh?) and she simply couldn't do it. I told her i would wait for as long as she would(oh how naive of me), but she wouldn't budge. A month later, we met up and i tried to reconcile(i didn't know about BPD yet) and she told me i wasn't right for her, because she thought i couldn't provide her with the rough sex she wanted. Very contradicting.

She also has a big mouth when it comes to sex. After the breakup i noticed how she would brag about sex and sexuality to coworkers. Apparently she takes guys home when she goes clubbing now. Pretty funny, since i know she is the biggest prude i've ever seen. I couldn't even watch when she changed clothes and she used childish words to describe sex.

Biggest what the heck of my life... .

[hergestridge]

This thread got me thinking and reflecting a bit.

As I have mentioned before we had a very long relationship, and for long periods I stopped expecting sex at all. I just waited for her to take initiative, and then it would be pretty much vanilla and unspectacular (at worst it could be drawn out and a bit too focused on her orgasm, but that's another story).

Then there were periods when she "blossomed" sexually for one reason or another. It would begin with us having much more (and better) sex for a couple of weeks, and then she would just pull away.

I couldn't take the sudden shift back to "cold" mode, especially since she wouldn't talk about it. I would approach her and she would just pretend like that "good" period of lots of sex and intimacy had never happened. I got sad, frustrated and angry.

For years and years, when the "good times" came (wether it was on the sexual plane or any other plane), I would always fool myself that it would last.

She would even talk about it like it would last. Our new sexual habits were "our little secret". She went out and bought sex toys and made all kinds of arrangements as if it was something she thought would continue.

Looking back, the "happy times" were actually when I was more passively involved with my wife, which was when we had a less active (but more consistent) sex life.