Do You Feel As If You Deserve To Be Happy?

[Turkish]

I mean really deep down. The inner child thread got me thinking about it.

I have these "loss scenarios" running as dysfunctional scripts in the background. Certainly this has been a year of loss for me: uBPDx (whose past words telegraphed that she feels like this deep down), and most significantly, the loss of my children half of the time, after taking care of them more while their mom slowly detached from me, but them also.

A horrible script was running in my head on the way home from work: what if I got a call that my kids died in a car accident, what would I do, where would I go, and would anything matter after that? It wasn't just the past year, but I always have thought along these lines. It's fear. My fears don't drive external behaviors as such like they do my Ex and my mom (my Ex was so paranoid we'd lose S4 if we didn't do everything just so... .she gets her fear from her hermit mom). I do find myself, however, torturing myself in my mind, as if the sadness is so familiar and pervasive, that it feels comfortable.

Despite being successful considering where I came from, I'm still and underachiever. It feels comfortable.

Losing my dream this past year, a nuclear and stable family, feels comfortable.

I felt like despite the fact that my Ex displays strong BPD traits, I sabotaged it from the beginning, because I felt like I deserved the loss. Self-sabotage by choosing to form a family with someone who pretty much telegraphed an almost pathological fear of marriage (commitment) from the beginning.

My mom has failed at most things she has tried (I'm being generous). How much f these traits did I incorporate into myself because that's what was emotionally familiar: self-sabotage.

I'm now middle aged, and I don't know whether to laugh, cry, rage, or just say "meh, move on, dude."

Telling my inner Turkey child that he deserves to be happy isn't enough. It feels weird, because in many ways, the inner child is the outer adult.

[clljhns]

Turkish,

Very thought-provoking post.

Despite being successful considering where I came from, I'm still and underachiever. It feels comfortable.

When I read your post, I was reminded of a recent conversation with a dear friend who shared an abusive childhood history. We discussed missed opportunities because of the damage to our fragile psyches' by the abuse and how the abuse altered our paths. Now that we are both middle-aged, we find that there were many things we wanted to do as young adults and for various reasons, did not. I don't know if it felt comfortable to always set the bar low, or if it was a sense that this was all I deserved. I think that I really felt unworthy of anything more than what I had in my relationships, which were all distant, disconnected, and on some levels abusive. So, perhaps, some of it was  feeling of normalcy, given that this is what I witnessed in my own parents marriage. I attribute my relationships to what I thought was normal, and my underachievement a result of a damaged self-esteem, as my mother often reminded me of how stupid I was or how incompetent I was. I bought into a lot of the unhealthy patterns in my family for many years, mostly because I wanted to say I had a "family". It was the need to be a part of the larger group deemed "normal" in our society. Not that being part of a family is not normal, but it does seem that we look at people strangely when they tell you they do not have family. It is almost as if we blame the victim for their circumstance.

I think this is what I am trying to get to, the sense that somehow the victim is responsible for their circumstance. I know this is why I don't share with people my childhood story, because I feel guilty for having been born into such an abusive family. So, part of how my inner child views the world is through a lens of guilt and mistrust. My inner child also has many fears that keep the adult from moving forward. Fears that I will not succeed, so why try. Fears that my abuse will be discovered and I will be seen as less than a functional, competent adult.

To the point of your question, ":)o you feel as if you deserve to be happy?", I have never felt that I deserved anything. I was not taught to need or think of the self. I was taught to think of the needs of my parents and to serve them. Each time, as an adult, when I did think to do things just for myself, I was overcome with such guilt that I would be so frozen with these feelings, that I couldn't make any decision or move on the thought. Many times I would become frustrated with little situations that had nothing to do with my inner turmoil, but I used these little events to release my angst. I now can recognize this in others. Quite an eye-opener.

Now, I find myself in a place where I can think of my needs. It is still a struggle, as I do not take care of myself the way I should. But, I am learning to ask myself what it is I need, and how can I meet that need? I still have moments of doubt, but know that I have to move forward and work on these issues, so that I am no longer chained to them and ruled by them. One thing that really helped me was study of reincarnation. It helped to reframe my experiences from one of a victim, to one of a learner. I do not believe in coincidence, but in lessons to be learned.

I feel like I am rambling at this point, and am not expressing myself very clearly. I guess what I am trying to say is that I examine why I find myself in certain situations from the perspective of a learner, a student of life. With that perspective at the forefront, it takes a lot of emotion out of the situation and  it doesn't seem as daunting a task. However, I have to say that if I were in a situation where I didn't have daily contact with my children, I don't know if I would be able to step back and evaluate the situation from a perspective of a learner, but more from the perspective as a protector.

Do I deserve to happy? Yes. I do. But that depends on me. The other question for me is, what is happy?

Thanks for such a open and honest post.

Peace and blessings! 

[HappyChappy]

We all know BPD are poison to our mental health and get us thinking along unhealthy lines. Turk having read a lot of your posts, sounds like you know your frame of mind does not encourage happiness.  I got a bestselling book about how to feel good. It’s an application of cognitive psychology. Managed to change my mind set, and I’m feeling happier as each month goes by.

I note from your threads you talk about achievement a lot. You talk about helping others, and being a rescuer. You talk about your worry for your kids and others. You talk about being comfortable about things – could that be numb to things ? I can relate to all that. Maybe it’s time to rescue yourself, worry about yourself. Give yourself a break ? Go treat yourself.  We’ve been programmed not to, but you can re-program yourself.

I (like many on this forum) was also brought up to do things, achieving things all the time. Brought up the scapegoat that burnt himself out trying to prove my BPD wrong. But I’ve started to work through the Happiness book, and you know it is working. So for example, rather than earn money I don’t spend, I’ve recruited two new members of staff, over staffed my business. Now that goes against my business head, but  I feel so much better as I’ve got time to focus on myself now. Something I’ve never really done before. So this theme of what we could have achieved if not for PTSD or BPD. My friends from school think I’m a big cheese, because I’ve made money and have a business. But actually to survive my childhood has been my biggest achievement. And to chase the achievements as defined by my BPD is like charging down windmills. I’m also middle aged and it took me till now to realise I need to look after myself more.

So before you get more dependants, use this time to treat yourself. If you’re a single middle age man, have you considered buying a sports car ? Or a wolf drawn sledge... .  All the best, bet you wolf can’t catch my rabbit. 

[Harri]

Hi Turkish.  You have had a rough year, huh?  I am sorry for that and I hope when you come through all of this, you will be able to allow yourself to embrace happiness or, at the very least, be able to sabotage the self sabotage!

I do understand what you mean when you say you are comfortable in sadness.  I do the same and sometimes I wonder if I seek out chaos because that is what I am used to.  I notice I feel more connected and almost thrive during times of crisis.  The aftermath is what hits me hard and I am starting to wonder if part of it is because I miss the intensity.  I haven't been able to figure that out yet. 

Regarding your question about deserving happiness:  I like to think I deserve happiness, but deep down, I think I don't truly believe it.  I'll be going along all happy or as I think of it, content, and then it is like I am consumed by fear and I self sabotage like you talked about.  If our beliefs drive our behaviors, I would have to say i do not believe I deserve happiness.  I am not sure how to change such a belief.  Maybe awareness will have to be enough?  Or put differently, maybe my background limits my capacity to embrace life fully?  I dunno.

I'm now middle aged, and I don't know whether to laugh, cry, rage, or just say "meh, move on, dude."

  Maybe do all of them.  Let Little Turkey (LOL!) tell you what you need to do with this.  I bet he has a few ideas, he seems like he is a smart kiddo.  Since you have read the inner child thread, I think you should grab some crayons and see what he has in mind!  Or, you can do what HappyC said and buy yourself a car!  Oh hell, do both.   

It feels weird, because in many ways, the inner child is the outer adult.

That is amazingly insightful.  Are you able to picture Little Turkey?  What would he say?

I have a question for you.  I have seen you qualify your success a couple of times, or so it seems.  Here you say

Despite being successful considering where I came from

Why put that qualifier on your success?  It sounds like (and I do not know you well, so set me straight if needed) you are putting down your success rather than saying "Look at where I am compared to where i came from. Damn, I'm good!"  Again, I may just be projecting my crap here and maybe you really are saying Damn I'm good.  I can't tell from here.   

[workinprogress]

No, I have never felt that I deserved to be happy.

Great question, btw!

[trees]

My initial response was heck yeah, I deserve to be happy. Everyone deserves to be happy. I wish my mom was happy, along with all the other troubled souls in the world. Part of that wish is selfish--I think my childhood would have been a heck of a lot diff. if she had been happy.

But the more I thought about it, the more I wondered if it was true. I self-sabotage myself in subtle ways. I hold myself to a much higher standard than anyone else.

So I think a more honest answer is I really want to be happy. I want to get to a place where I believe in myself and my happiness and that I am part of the "everyone" that I think deserves happiness.

Really interesting question.

[Ziggiddy]

Hm. Got me thinking Turkish.

My first thought was this chill when i realised a little while back I had the exact same thing - the same sensation of "What if?" I was walking across a lonely highway around a blind bend and thought "What if a truck came by and BAM - I was gone?" Then "What if I got home and found all my family, my kids and my beloved all killed in a freak accident?'

I have done research into this previously as I was so distressed (I am not at all a catastrophic type thinker. Even when catastrophes happen i think it is the 1%)

Some research suggests that as part of awakening to BPD/NPD/HPD that the psyche protects itself to a certain degree. Then as you near the point where you are able to cope with the loss, your conscious mind throws up a catastrophic and grievous scenario.

Oddly enough, before I had that weird 'daydream/grotesque thought' I had been TERRIFIED of my mum dying (and no wonder - I was so enmeshed at that point it would have killed a large part of me) But that same day, just minutes later I thought "What if Mum or Dad died?" and I didn't feel the same panic stricken dread. it had transferred to my family - my H&Ks I wonder if it isn't a sense of the mind putting things in a different order? And like happens in certain disturbing dreams, your conscious readjusts or realigns somehow to get a new perspective. it may not have to do with real scenarios ( although I know you have expressed some worries about your mother's health and condition) There may be an element of preparing for the inevitable

Me I think my experience was a more of a 'psychic' death. imagery to 'kill off' my mother's dominant role in my marriage and make room for my husband.

And yes, in these last few weeks of trauma work not only am I starting to believe I deserve to be happy, I'm starting to think I deserve it more because I was deprived of it so long.

great thread. I will be thinking about this.

[HappyChappy]

Why would any good person not deserve happiness ? I do.

I note those with faith believe they have found the way to happiness. If you have freedom, who’s preventing you from accessing happiness ?  Maybe all we need is faith in ourselves... .And a T and a few self help books and some cream cakes and a shiny sports car and large a TV... .

[gentlestguardian]

Turkish -- Your question made me think, is my feeling of what I deserve limited to happiness? On any given day, do I feel I deserve anything? If I'm being 100% honest with myself, the answer is no. This really struck me hard when I bought a nice car for myself a few weeks ago and my significant other said, "I'm so happy for you, you deserve this car!" And all I could feel was totally stumped. I even tried to think about it objectively after his statement. I thought, I work hard, I take care of my family, I try to be a kind person. Yes, all these facts do seem to add up to "deserve"... .and yet when I tried to feel "deserve" I felt nothing but an empty void.

I think there are just some feelings that are more foreign to children of BPD parents than others, and "deserve" is one of them. We are rusty and out of practice. Do you truly, in your gut, down deep where all you have are your instincts, feel that you don't deserve happiness? And if you do truly feel you don't deserve happiness, how much of that feeling is rooted in guilt for forging ahead on your own path of success while the pwBPD in your life continue to struggle? I know that's a huge deterrent for my own sense of happiness.

[Turkish]

Turkish -- Your question made me think, is my feeling of what I deserve limited to happiness? On any given day, do I feel I deserve anything? If I'm being 100% honest with myself, the answer is no. This really struck me hard when I bought a nice car for myself a few weeks ago and my significant other said, "I'm so happy for you, you deserve this car!" And all I could feel was totally stumped. I even tried to think about it objectively after his statement. I thought, I work hard, I take care of my family, I try to be a kind person. Yes, all these facts do seem to add up to "deserve"... .and yet when I tried to feel "deserve" I felt nothing but an empty void.

I think there are just some feelings that are more foreign to children of BPD parents than others, and "deserve" is one of them. We are rusty and out of practice. Do you truly, in your gut, down deep where all you have are your instincts, feel that you don't deserve happiness? And if you do truly feel you don't deserve happiness, how much of that feeling is rooted in guilt for forging ahead on your own path of success while the pwBPD in your life continue to struggle? I know that's a huge deterrent for my own sense of happiness.

First, thanks all. I'm still thinking about this, and thanks for joining me. HC, I do have that "sports car", a turbo 4-door hatch (my compromise to being family friendly), and yes, I take it into the hills and drive it like it's meant to be driven. I've had fast motorcycles for years. I can't think of any mid-life crisis thing that I want right now. Despite the financial burden of joint custody, I think I will keep my car going and try to save up for the new rumored Mazdaspeed that may come out in 2017... .RED, like my current one  HC- maybe I should change my avatar to a coyote? 

gentlesguardian, I also don't think I deserve anything that I don't work for. The equation to me is: you want something, you work for it. Hmm... .I think this doesn't only apply to material things. I still have a hard time fathoming what my T asked me earlier in the year: "what do you do for you?" Even my uBPDx kind of accused me of this before she left. This isn't the first time I've said that here. I've stopped care-taking or rescuing my BPD mom (though this winter I may need to literally to save her life). I focus on the kids and love that.

So what's missing? Oh yeah, what am I doing for me. I feel like I did it through most of my 20s and into my mid-30s before I met my Ex, but I was just kind of on autopilot, living, but not. No real goal. Periodically depressed.

Do I keep talking about my accomplishments? It's relative. Living where I do, everything is so material-based. I live in a 55 year old house in not the best neighborhood, and drive a car much less than I could really afford. The burden is always planning for the future, to not turn out living on the edge of destitution like my mom is now. Taking care of her now and then, my kids, and my Ex for a while (though she'd deny it).

What I get from this, is that despite being responsible, far more than the 30 and 40 year olds living in San Francisco driving BMWs and partying, but having nothing to show for it (so said a financial guy I consulted with 10 years ago), maybe I am still driven by fear of living like I did as kid? So I'm focused on the future, while emotionally stuck in the past.

pwBPD get triggered in the present by past trauma they relive emotionally at the moment. Perhaps drawn out over a very long period, I'm doing the same. I've never really been "happy" for more than brief moments in time. I function, sure, but I feel it's not enough.

[Harri]

Hi turkish.  I had only noticed a couple of times where you talk about your success but only in terms of "considering where I came from".  Certainly not frequently at all. 

I understand the need and desire to build for the future.  I have done that and all I can say is I am happy you are not socking *everything* away.  Looking back, from my current position, I wish I had indulged myself a bit more.  Saving is good and wise, but when I see my efforts go out the window after one long bout with illness and am facing the same thing again after rebuilding, it makes me wish I had had a bit more fun.  It sounds like you have a more balanced view on that though.  Definitely save for the new car!   

What Ziggiddy said about deserving happiness more because she went without it so long is interesting to me.  That sounds right and true... .but when i try to say the words out loud for myself, I hear uncertainty and can't even finish the sentence! 

pwBPD get triggered in the present by past trauma they relive emotionally at the moment. Perhaps drawn out over a very long period, I'm doing the same. I've never really been "happy" for more than brief moments in time. I function, sure, but I feel it's not enough.

Are you able to envision what happiness means to you?

[Turkish]

Hi turkish.  I had only noticed a couple of times where you talk about your success but only in terms of "considering where I came from".  Certainly not frequently at all.  

I did ignore your query last time. I think it's a matter of perspective for me. When people say things like "it's amazing you're so well adjusted and are doing well considering everything you went through," it feels invalidating to me. We had a thread here, or maybe it was on PI, earlier in the year discussing the problem a lot of us had taking compliments.

I understand the need and desire to build for the future.  I have done that and all I can say is I am happy you are not socking *everything* away.  Looking back, from my current position, I wish I had indulged myself a bit more.  Saving is good and wise, but when I see my efforts go out the window after one long bout with illness and am facing the same thing again after rebuilding, it makes me wish I had had a bit more fun.  It sounds like you have a more balanced view on that though.  :)efinitely save for the new car!  

I'm not going to retire rich, and who knows what the next 25 years will bring anyway? I could get sick, the economy could go into depression, world war, cannibalism in the streets, who knows? I just don't want to be a burden for anybody. Whatever is there, the kids can have if I croak early.

pwBPD get triggered in the present by past trauma they relive emotionally at the moment. Perhaps drawn out over a very long period, I'm doing the same. I've never really been "happy" for more than brief moments in time. I function, sure, but I feel it's not enough.

Are you able to envision what happiness means to you?

Happiness is peace without worry. I never worried about day to day stuff. I dealt with it real time. Happiness, I thought, was having the family that I never had, not  to be the father who abandoned me when I was a baby due to his and my mother's addictions. One who was present and emotionally available. I suppose something like the end scene in the movie Raising Arizona where the two criminals with crazy lives look into the future and see themselves as the patriarch and matriarch of a huge, loving, extended family.  My dream was shattered this past year due to my poor choice in a mate. I messed up. My responsibility was taking on some of my mother's traits without realizing it. Can I be happy if I make the right choice next time? Could be too late. But then I might be thinking that someone else is responsible for my happiness. I have the kids, and maybe that's enough.

Here is the kicker I think: aside from my attachments, I can't envision happiness for its own sake. It sounds stupid and weak for me to even write that, but I know logically that it's not, is it? This ties in with what I learned in youth mentoring: you don't know what you don't know. We used it to show the youth that they had options, and here are the options for a better life. They begin with you, detached from your parents, the cops, school, or your peers. I'd certainly like for someone to show me options. Like many or probably most of us here, we pretty much raised ourselves. It makes us tough, but maybe it also resulted in a lack of caring for ourselves emotionally because we were loved by abusers.

[Ziggiddy]

It is almost as if we blame the victim for their circumstance.

I think this is what I am trying to get to, the sense that somehow the victim is responsible for their circumstance. I know this is why I don't share with people my childhood story, because I feel guilty for having been born into such an abusive family. So, part of how my inner child views the world is through a lens of guilt and mistrust.

To the point of your question, ":)o you feel as if you deserve to be happy?", I have never felt that I deserved anything. I was not taught to need or think of the self. I was taught to think of the needs of my parents and to serve them. Each time, as an adult, when I did think to do things just for myself, I was overcome with such guilt that I would be so frozen with these feelings, that I couldn't make any decision or move on the thought.

Now, I find myself in a place where I can think of my needs. It is still a struggle, as I do not take care of myself the way I should.

clljhns

I did not see your reply before but reading these two things in particular gave me quite a moment's pause.

Your first point - you don't talk about your childhood abuse due to mistrust. I don't tell people about mine because I really don't think it would matter to them. that they would say "Oh that's nothing - you should see what happened to ME."

In a subtle way I am now thinking I have fully believed everybody had it like that and none of them would have any sympathy left for me because it would all go on themselves and others who deserved it more. This thought is causing me some churning inside.

The second thing: last week I did my family's grocery shop and loading it into the car thought for the millionth time "Why oh why do I spend so much? I should save. Buy less. Be $ savvy.' Ignored the part that says I spend less than half of most of my friends. I buy everything on clearance markdown or cheap brand. I looked in at the items and saw bread for my kids' lunches, ham for my husband and a peach for me and thought "It's just shopping. Why oh WHY do you feel so guilty? You are caring for your FAMILY?" I still don't know why but now I am wondering if it's related to what you said about guilt for taking care of your needs. And I am responsible for taking care of my family's needs! Yet I STILL feel guilty about it! I wish I knew how to stop feeling like that

[gentlestguardian]

Your first point - you don't talk about your childhood abuse due to mistrust. I don't tell people about mine because I really don't think it would matter to them. In a subtle way I am now thinking I have fully believed everybody had it like that.

I can relate so much to this. All the time I think, "You're not the only one with a rough childhood. Everyone has it rough." I'm starting to realize that's the normalizing child talking; that it's one of my defense mechanisms. I look at my own kids and see that they don't have it rough. I talk with my SO about his childhood filled with camps and activities that he enjoyed and see he didn't have it rough either. Certainly everyone has their struggles and I don't want to downplay that in the slightest, but it's quite the mental blow to accept that my upbringing was not healthy, and that I am not in the majority.

The second thing: last week I did my family's grocery shop and loading it into the car thought for the millionth time "Why oh why do I spend so much? I should save. Buy less. Be $ savvy.' Ignored the part that says I spend less than half of most of my friends. I buy everything on clearance markdown or cheap brand. I looked in at the items and saw bread for my kids' lunches, ham for my husband and a peach for me and thought "It's just shopping. Why oh WHY do you feel so guilty? You are caring for your FAMILY?" I still don't know why but now I am wondering if it's related to what you said about guilt for taking care of your needs. And I am responsible for taking care of my family's needs! Yet I STILL feel guilty about it! I wish I knew how to stop feeling like that

If you find an answer to that last question, can you please share it? I've been searching for a long time. I've come to the realization that I have no rational sense of money whatsoever; that my perception of money is tied to one pervading thought: "I can't spend this on myself because my BPDm needs it more than I do." I hate that thought so very much.

[jmanvo2015]

Hello Turkish,

This is a great question and the responses on this thread are like awakenings for me, a newbie here digesting and learning about BPD and its ramifications in my life in a new light.

First, I am really very sorry for what you are going through this year. I'm not married, but am the child of divorce and understand the losses.  However, it sounds  like you're being really hard on yourself for making the wrong choice in your spouse and I'm reminded of the Maya Angelou quote about "... .doing the best we can until we know better, and then we do better." 

I'm in the opposite situation and want to assure you that it's not any better.  I am a 45-yr old single woman who has never married due to the fear of recreating the trauma I experienced with my uBPDm, NPD stepdad and abandonment by my NPD biological father.  While you are worrying about losing the family you have, I worry about never having one.  Why am I saying this?  Because while you are being hard on yourself for making the wrong choice, I am envying you for making a choice and taking a chance  and not hiding from life.  As a result of that you have beautiful children.

Yes, I believe I deserve to be happy.  I believe all people deserve happiness.  According to my world view, you deserve happiness.  Do we find it?  Well, I am recently living with my uBPD and my NPD stepdad and it was my choice and a foolish one.  I did it because I was lonely and thought it would be nice to be "home."  It hasn't been nice at all, but it has made me have this major ah-ha moment about why I self-sabotage.  As an adult I can see how my parents are, sadly, so mentally ill in important ways, that they can find no joy in me as their child.  Everything is a criticism, a burden and a resentment.   It took for me to come home as an adult to realize how this has affected my life.  I think now, finally, because I've had this awakening I do have a shot at happiness.  I think before this I was recreating my childhood and the lack of love, intimacy and appreciation.

I love what clljhns said, "I think this is what I am trying to get to, the sense that somehow the victim is responsible for their circumstance. I know this is why I don't share with people my childhood story, because I feel guilty for having been born into such an abusive family."  I really relate to this.

I think you are going to have to do all of it: laugh, cry, rage and move on.  I know for me, I have recently given serious thought to becoming involved with foster care kids because I know that the older ones have nobody and have so many of the same problems that result from BPD parents.  So, maybe I can help them and also give my life a greater sense of purpose and meaning. 

I think we all have to find that thing that makes us feel there's a purpose to the suffering we've experienced, and we also just have to accept the suffering for what it is.  I had an opportunity to visit Haiti once and it changed my world view.  I saw people there who were taking showers on the street with pans of water, standing on line for hours with pails for food, unable to access toilets.  I saw children in orphanages who literally had nobody and nothing.  And, this was all before the earthquake hit.  I've heard people say that Haitian workers in the US are "lazy" or "unmotivated" and I don't think that's true.  I think they carry with them a lifelong sadness and depression.

Why do some people suffer?  Why do some people have BPDs in their lives and have to experience the trauma and disappointment?  I honestly don't know but I know that after I returned from Haiti I was never again not able to appreciate how beautiful my life is despite all of my personal suffering. 

So, yes, I guess what I'm suggesting is that if you have few extra bucks, maybe a mission trip or one of the volunteer work vacations might really help you move out of this phase of loss and grief into a better place like it did for me.

Wishing you the very best of everything and hoping you find your way and can help me find mine here, too, since this is all new to me.

[Woolspinner2000]

I don't tell people about mine because I really don't think it would matter to them. that they would say "Oh that's nothing - you should see what happened to ME."

In a subtle way I am now thinking I have fully believed everybody had it like that and none of them would have any sympathy left for me because it would all go on themselves

The second thing: last week I did my family's grocery shop and loading it into the car thought for the millionth time "Why oh why do I spend so much? I should save. Buy less. Be $ savvy.' 

I still don't know why but now I am wondering if it's related to what you said about guilt for taking care of your needs. And I am responsible for taking care of my family's needs! Yet I STILL feel guilty about it! I wish I knew how to stop feeling like that

Ziggiddy,

I had this exact thing happen to me this week with my DH. I told him this time in my life is hard, going back through my childhood for healing. I really was looking for validation (aren't we all). He responded that he'd gone through the same thing, that he understood. He probably meant to be kind, but all I heard was that he had the same pain and journey I did. No, he didn't go through the same things I did-neither of his parents had a PD. He has depression, but it's not the same as being a child of a pwBPD. I know he had tough things in his life, but please let me share about my own struggles. Validate me just a bit for I hardly ever hear/heard it. Thank goodness you all do a great job of understanding and knowing what it's like. 

And the part about feeling guilty about spending $$: when we were first married 30 years ago, I seriously had hot flashes and turned red and had terrible anxiety for spending $40 a week! I've been telling myself lately that I shouldn't get that cup of coffee or anything for me as it all needs to go pay bills. My husband is spending on himself, buying boats and fishing gear, and I feel guilty for getting $40 of cash out of the ATM.

I agree: will it ever go away?

I'm starting to realize that's the normalizing child talking; that it's one of my defense mechanisms. I look at my own kids and see that they don't have it rough.  Certainly everyone has their struggles and I don't want to downplay that in the slightest, but it's quite the mental blow to accept that my upbringing was not healthy, and that I am not in the majority.

"I can't spend this on myself because my BPDm needs it more than I do." I hate that thought so very much.

Gentlestgaurdian, I see  going off in my head, suddenly realizing, "Oh crap, that part too I can attribute to my lovely childhood?" And I'd finish up your sentence but substitute my uBPDm, my dad, my DH, my kids need it more than I do... .and the list goes on.

Great thoughts.

Woolspinner

[Turkish]

Hello Turkish,

This is a great question and the responses on this thread are like awakenings for me, a newbie here digesting and learning about BPD and its ramifications in my life in a new light.

First, I am really very sorry for what you are going through this year. I'm not married, but am the child of divorce and understand the losses.  However, it sounds  like you're being really hard on yourself for making the wrong choice in your spouse and I'm reminded of the Maya Angelou quote about "... .doing the best we can until we know better, and then we do better." 

I'm in the opposite situation and want to assure you that it's not any better.  I am a 45-yr old single woman who has never married due to the fear of recreating the trauma I experienced with my uBPDm, NPD stepdad and abandonment by my NPD biological father.  While you are worrying about losing the family you have, I worry about never having one.  Why am I saying this?  Because while you are being hard on yourself for making the wrong choice, I am envying you for making a choice and taking a chance  and not hiding from life.  As a result of that you have beautiful children.

Thank you. Choosing to not decide is still a choice. I chose to not make a decision for many years, until my mid to late 30s. I then chose to open the door, but it went into a dark tunnel instead of the light, unfortunately. I hadn't gotten out of the tunnel of my past before I did so. I only hope to keep the kids out of it. At 2 and 4, the kids are already in the role reversal of being her emotional parents. It's subtle now, but sometimes I   

Yes, I believe I deserve to be happy.  I believe all people deserve happiness.  According to my world view, you deserve happiness.  Do we find it?  Well, I am recently living with my uBPD and my NPD stepdad and it was my choice and a foolish one.  I did it because I was lonely and thought it would be nice to be "home."  It hasn't been nice at all, but it has made me have this major ah-ha moment about why I self-sabotage.  As an adult I can see how my parents are, sadly, so mentally ill in important ways, that they can find no joy in me as their child.  Everything is a criticism, a burden and a resentment.   It took for me to come home as an adult to realize how this has affected my life.  I think now, finally, because I've had this awakening I do have a shot at happiness.  I think before this I was recreating my childhood and the lack of love, intimacy and appreciation.

It sounds like you are well on your way. You're working through it. Perhaps moving back was the shock you needed?

I think we all have to find that thing that makes us feel there's a purpose to the suffering we've experienced, and we also just have to accept the suffering for what it is.  I had an opportunity to visit Haiti once and it changed my world view.  I saw people there who were taking showers on the street with pans of water, standing on line for hours with pails for food, unable to access toilets.  I saw children in orphanages who literally had nobody and nothing.  And, this was all before the earthquake hit.  I've heard people say that Haitian workers in the US are "lazy" or "unmotivated" and I don't think that's true.  I think they carry with them a lifelong sadness and depression.

I don't discount that. How would they know otherwise? When I went through a few countries in Eastern Europe, over a decade after The Wall fell, and almost a decade after the Balkan War, I could see the dourness in the countenances of those who lived under totalitarian regimes. In the rural areas, it was even worse. A marked difference from the younger people. In Haiti, I'm sure it is much worse.

Why do some people suffer?  Why do some people have BPDs in their lives and have to experience the trauma and disappointment?  I honestly don't know but I know that after I returned from Haiti I was never again not able to appreciate how beautiful my life is despite all of my personal suffering. 

Perspective can be shocking when we're torn outside of the walls of familiarity. That can be in a healthy way as well, to experience something noble and right.

So, yes, I guess what I'm suggesting is that if you have few extra bucks, maybe a mission trip or one of the volunteer work vacations might really help you move out of this phase of loss and grief into a better place like it did for me.

I would love to do something like that, but with S4 and D2, I'm pretty much "grounded" for the next 17 years. I would like to do something in town, and there are opportunities even in familiar enrivons. I had this idea going around in my head today, based upon a support program they have at the church for moms. I was thinking, "sure, they have a men's group, but where is the support for dads? Surely there are others like me who are part time single dads who also need support. The women's group isn't just for married women, but moms." I then thought that they might respond, "why don't you start something?" I need focus, and that is something that has both outward and inward focus.

Wishing you the very best of everything and hoping you find your way and can help me find mine here, too, since this is all new to me.

Thank you jmanvo2015, you, too 

It is new, and if 43 year old Turkish (well, next month, but close enough) were to tell 33 year old Turkish that he would be here amongst people getting support, the younger me would have said, "that's weak!" or "stupid." I think some of us can get lost in the pain and confusion because it's so familiar. The dysfunction can be oddly comfortable in a way.

[Turkish]

The comments a few of you made about money and the guilt of spending it are interesting, even not on ourselves. I don't subscribe to the opinion that money buys happiness, but it's needed to survive. Is the guilt   from parents directly related to money, or just that we were never felt it was ok to feel like we needed things?

My views on money are split. Having lived on the edge, I don't like buying really nice things, though occasionally I do. One, I don't want to end up like my mom, so I over-save (this is flown out the window since the separation, where I had to reduce my retirement contributions to the bare minimum or I'd have to pay her more CS, and I'm also not budgeting anymore). My mom even went through a phase when she sent me dumpster diving to "rescue" produce that the grocery stores would throw out.

Sometimes, however, I just blow money I know I should be saving. 25 years ago, one of my buddies said "a $20 bill to you is just like a $1." I think he meant that the possession didn't mean anything to me. I survived without it just as I survived with it. Or, I was equally happy or unhappy without money.

[clljhns]

Turkish,

. Is the guilt  PD traits PD traits from parents directly related to money, or just that we were never felt it was ok to feel like we needed things?

Mine is two-fold. I listened to my mother scream all the time that there was not enough money. This was true for us when I was very young, until about the age of nine. So, I was afraid to ask for anything because I was reminded how difficult it was to get us anything. I do remember going to the 5 and 10 store and my mother buying me and sis, who is 2 yrs older, small trinkets. I also remember my dad bringing home gifts for just me and not my siblings. This is a separate story.

When they finally did have money, I watched my mother spend them into debt. Extreme debt, to the tune of $250,000. She had amassed 25 credit cards and was spending carelessly. This was frightening for me to watch, even as an adult. I would tell my mother not to buy us anything for Christmas or birthdays, just please pay off their debt so they didn't go bankrupt and loose their home. I would get screamed at that I couldn't tell her how to spend her money!

So, I have always felt guilty for anything I received from my parents. There were strings attached. And I saw how money made my mother a shopping maniac. I think she would have had some other addictive habit if she didn't have the money at her disposal.

Money is necessary. We must have it to exchange for the goods we need. Money can also provide for our comforts. I can't even imagine being in a place where I didn't have enough money to take care of my needs. This is a terrifying proposition. However, I still feel uncomfortable at the thought of having lots of money at my disposal. I think I am afraid that I will turn into my mother.

My therapist has encouraged me to change my thoughts about money so that I can have an abundance of money, rather than just living paycheck to paycheck. Working on this. Will let you know how it works out.

Peace and blessings. 

[woodsposse]

My Friend Turk,

I wanted to reply before I read the other replies.  It is at a time like this that me saying your happiness starts and ends with you is most important.

Yes, we all deserve to be happy.  And we can claim it.  Everyday.

You know this my friend... .stop confusing yourself.  :-)

[jmanvo2015]

Hello Turkish, my Haiti trip - the one that changed my life forever - was actually only a four day trip.  There are mission trips that are a week and less.  Sometimes having a life-changing experience like this can help during a time of transition like the divorce you're going through.  I really like your idea about starting a men's support group, too.  It's really true that you almost never see support groups for men.  Why is that? 

[funfunctional]

Hi Turkish,

I picked up on the childhood stuff in your post as someone else mentioned.

You refer to your Ex so I assume you are divorced.    I sometimes have the SAME thoughts as you.  What if anything happened to my kids... .what would be my motivation for even staying here on this earth.

This is it:   We have to somehow develop a faith or trust and change our thought patterns.    Can't fall into our childhood atmoshere... .but grow beyond that.  Learn from our parents mistakes as I can tell you that all of our kids will be complaining about something we did wrong that scarred them someday.  Maybe not as bad because we GREW and are GROWING and thinking and learning from our life experiences.  Establishing a wisdom in life.   Learning to love more and enjoy life more.

I think you need a new vision of your life.   You know past choices weren't best to serve you.   Who you chose as spouse.    Dive into some interests you have and take some chances and get involved in some new ventures.

Yes, you deserve to be happy!   Why call yourself an underachiever?    Achieve means to find something you like and feel self satifcation in it.    It can be something like learning how to paint and loving the visuals you create.     I have find that the more I do for others and the MORE I take care of myself (sounds contradictory I know) but that balance is important.

Bring into you life happiness... .allow it.     Set yourself free and enjoy your kids and don't worry.    There's a plan for you but you have to follow those breadcrumbls and throw a little parmasean cheese on those crumbs so you are enjoying yourself along the way.

[Turkish]

Bring into you life happiness... .allow it.     Set yourself free and enjoy your kids and don't worry.    There's a plan for you but you have to follow those breadcrumbls and throw a little parmasean cheese on those crumbs so you are enjoying yourself along the way.

Mmmm, cheese! I love cheese. Good metaphor.

jmanvo2015, I have my theories on why men don't reach out. At the risk of turning this into a moan-fest, I'll say that I read something that BPD used to be diagnosed more in women because the medical community later realized that the sample was loaded. That is, they were dealing with women who came to therapy, and men are more resistant to taking care of themselves or entering therapy. It's thought now that BPD is a pretty even split between genders.

I don't know why men don't reach out, but I think it also results in the suicide rates for men being higher. That's tragic. From wikepedia:

In a review of the literature on gender and suicide, male suicide rates were explained in terms of traditional gender roles. Male gender roles tend to emphasize greater levels of strength, independence, and risk-taking behavior.[8] Reinforcement of this gender role often prevents males from seeking help for suicidal feelings and depression.[9]

For me, I don't know why. I was the single child of a single mother who was an old school feminist. I remember she trying to get me to play with dolls (not barbies) as one of her "experiments." It never took with me. I don't consciously remember being "feminized" but in my r/s with my Ex, she used to joke that she felt like the man (she's emotionally aggressive), and that I was the woman. So messed up. Is there something wrong with being tender and kind?

I'm tough on the outside. Very tough. But inside? Maybe this confusion is part of why I don't often feel happy. I know who I am, but there are still    in there telling me who I should or should not be. Invalidation is when we are told how to feel rather than being allowed to just feel. I'm invalidating myself.

[jmanvo2015]

"Is there something wrong with being tender and kind?"

You're kidding, right?     

[Turkish]

"Is there something wrong with being tender and kind?"

You're kidding, right?     

Apparently, I was too manly sometimes (a "bad communicator," not telling her my needs) and not manly enough others (not taking control). It's hard to be myself in a situation like that.

Speaking of the kids, and tying it to Haiti: I went to see a Christian Reggae group yesterday. I didn't even know they were coming to church. I just heard this wonderful, uplifting musicwhen I entered. I'm neutral on Reggae, but I liked it a lot. We went back for the evening concert. There were less people there, but the kids had a lot of fun. At one point, S4 was kneeling down next to this young woman. I was sitting in a pew trying to make sure D2 stayed out of trouble, because at some points the band had everyone up and jumping around. This was a lull.

S4 didn't know what he was doing. He was mirroring the girl next to him. I knelt over him and put my arm around his chest, I also got D2 to come over and stay there with us. We sat there like that for a while as the music flowed. I bowed and kissed the top of my son's head, and felt a tear flowed down my cheek. I was happy in that moment, just me and my two cubs.

The concert was free, but they were raising funds for a Haiti concert trip, so I helped what I could at the moment. The old me would not have gone to something like that, preferring to stay home or do something hermitish. I'm getting better.

[jmanvo2015]

Turkish, that sounds like a beautiful moment with your children.  Someone told me once something that I think I want to tell you.  They said that it's our job to surround ourselves with people that validate us and affirm who we are.  However, because of our abusive childhoods, we're often attracted to those that invalidate us, like your ex-wife.  It sounds to me like nothing you could do what make her happy, or to not be critical.  If you were too manly she was critical.  If you were too sensitive she was critical.

This sounds like my uBPDm and NPDstepdad.  No matter what I do or say they're not happy.  Earlier tonight, I went to a meeting for Adult Children of Alcoholics (and dysfunction) and we were talking about emotional abuse and abandonment, which is also coming up on another active thread that Harri started.

I was looking around at this room full of beautiful people, many of whom are probably about 20 years younger than me because the group is hosted at Caron treatment center near my home, so many of them are living there for treatment.  I was thinking about how wonderful they all are.  I was just looking around the room at all these beautiful young adults and thinking how proud I'd be to be a parent to any of them.  They are so intelligent and intuitive and here they all sit in "treatment" because of parental abuse.  Like me, they've internalized all the messages their stupid parents threw at them.

Don't internalize the messages your stupid ex-wife threw at you.  It sounds like you are a beautiful person.  It's apparent you have a beautiful heart.  So, in this equation, it's pretty clear that whatever your ex-wife thought about you had more to do with her inability to give love and approval than any deficiencies on your part. 

[Turkish]

It must have felt so sad see all of those young people there in treatment. At which generation does it stop? We're aware of all of these issues which were just beginning to be talked about around 30 years ago, but the pain just seems to keep on giving.

I read something yesterday, from The Power of Validation. It's written towards caregivers, but as the child of a BPD parent I'm getting things out of it as well:

"Sometimes people fear the loss of happiness, so they don’t want to feel happiness at all."

I don't know that this type of thought might drive me as well.