Is the lesson always the NON's to learn?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I propose this question because I believe I knew my ex had BPD and I know I accepted her for it. I was told many times to either leave her or accept her. I was fully aware of my situation.  Did I expect the unexpected B/U from hell during the holidays, smear campaign , Painted pure black, and Life changing in a tornado during jingle bells? NO I DIDN"T see that one.

So I believe I was the pretty grounded individual who was obviously with a very disordered person who seemed pretty predictable for the most part. All of a sudden went into full trigger and saw me as " a DEMON?" I really dont know what they see? But i felt like I was a monster to her.

So Ive been asked about myself and I am looking at this trying to make sense so I dont have to go through my life wondering what the heck is wrong with me?  I

I think with my ex she was reliving her childhood through ME?

Does any one get that? I became her Mom , I became her dad, I became her sexually abusive step dad?

Just wondering if we were innocent bystanders in this drama in thier minds?

[christin5433]

I propose this question because I believe I knew my ex had BPD and I know I accepted her for it. I was told many times to either leave her or accept her. I was fully aware of my situation.  Did I expect the unexpected B/U from hell during the holidays, smear campaign , Painted pure black, and Life changing in a tornado during jingle bells? NO I DIDN"T see that one.

So I believe I was the pretty grounded individual who was obviously with a very disordered person who seemed pretty predictable for the most part. All of a sudden went into full trigger and saw me as " a DEMON?" I really dont know what they see? But i felt like I was a monster to her.

So Ive been asked about myself and I am looking at this trying to make sense so I dont have to go through my life wondering what the heck is wrong with me?  I

I think with my ex she was reliving her childhood through ME?

Does any one get that? I became her Mom , I became her dad, I became her sexually abusive step dad?

Just wondering if we were innocent bystanders in this drama in thier minds?

[Restored2]

christin5433: My heart goes out to you.  What a horrible experience for you to have to endure, let alone over the Christmas holidays. 

We can be profiled in a rear view mirror by a BPD person.  In other words, whatever their past experiences of abuse is we can wear in the present for them.  Whether we realize it or not, the drama can unfold in their minds and emotions through us triggering them. 

It seems like the lesson is always the non's to learn, otherwise the BPD people would be aware to educate us. 

[HappyNihilist]

I think with my ex she was reliving her childhood through ME?

Does any one get that? I became her Mom , I became her dad, I became her sexually abusive step dad?

The short answer is... .yes. Absolutely. Yes, she was reliving her childhood trauma and patterns in the relationship. Yes, you became her parent. Yes, you became her persecutor. (Also... .no, there is nothing you could have done that would have prevented this.)

This is at the very core of a BPD relationship, and why they evolve (and explode) the way they do.

BPD involves problems regulating emotions, and disordered attachment. It's this disordered attachment part that's caused their lack of stability. As children, they were unable to develop an integrated sense of self.

To develop a coherent, stable sense of self, a child must feel understood, validated, accepted, and mirrored by its caregiver. In the case of abuse, neglect, or other maltreatment, this doesn't happen - and the mirror that is held up to the child by its caregiver is one that doesn't match what the child is feeling/thinking. The child is unable to internalize an external image of itself as an intentional, individual being... .and therefore is unable to develop a true, integrated self.

Instead, the child's self-representation becomes the representation of an Other. Often in the case of a pwBPD, this is a torturing, persecuting Other - the "Punitive Parent."

Because this representation doesn't match the pwBPD's fledgling, fragile "primal self," it has to be externalized onto a significant other in their life. That way, the pwBPD can safely control, hate, and try to destroy it. But they also need the significant other around so they can maintain something like a coherent sense of self... .so it all becomes a toxic, complex dance.

Not only has the partner become the dumping grounds for the pwBPD's Punitive Parent narrative, but there's another element at play that puts the partner in the "parental" role.

Since disordered attachment is so heavily at play in BPD, a pwBPD is (unconsciously) searching for someone who can meet those core unmet needs from infancy/childhood. This is an exercise in futility - no one can meet those needs or address those core wounds, except for the pwBPD him-/herself. But of course the pwBPD doesn't realize this, and so he/she keeps playing out the same script.

The script is this (paraphrased from Dolores Mosquera's excellent article on early experience in BPD)--

The images of the "good" parent are connected to the attachment system, which is innately conditioned to attach to the parent.

The images of the "frightening" parent are connected to a defensive action system, mediated by fear and anger, which is activated when danger is perceived.

These incompatible and dissociated subsystems were never integrated, and they operate at a primitive level of development.

When a borderline starts a relationship, the attachment system is activated. They easily idealize a new partner with a need for attachment that seems disproportionate to us... .but it is absolutely proportionate to their core unmet needs.

The pwBPD is hyper-vigilant to possible rejection from the partner, since abrupt changes in their caregiver's attachment/affection were the norm.

The pwBPD alternates between these subsystems - which contain different emotions, coping strategies, and concepts of self and relationships.

Chaos ensues.

There's a lot of literature on this, and it's been very helpful for me personally to learn more and understand. It's a great stepping stone for learning what roles and patterns we played and lived out in our relationships.

It's great that you're using this as an opportunity to learn about yourself. 

[christin5433]

This is a lot of information to understand I would like to read more on this because its such a relief to know that I can rest assure I could never no matter what I gave to the r/s that was of nurture and stability shed always try to destroy it in some unreasonable fashion. I mean listening to her which I would do intently became not listening to her at all. She became static to my ears unless she spoke w kindness and in a tone that was not trying to start chaos . This she found controlling of me? I asked myself and read how to deal w a BPD and it says u say things from a place of some firmness and validate there feelings. Her feelings got worse and worse the more she demanded I change. What more can I change I'm not going to change myself for her for one more second. My small voice inside said I like me why would I change all that is good in me that you all of a sudden see all bad, it was a losing battle.

These lessons or pieces of the puzzle make me empowered because it has been such a long road trying to cope w this illness . The disorder I guess has a life of its own. I no I felt I was in her imaginary scenarios because there could literally be nothing going on and I'd be talking or doing something and shed read me as ignoring her. I may have not like the feeling of being a starved companion . My every moved was based on her. So that could make anyone feel like they were not themselves . I wasn't . And the trust factor went somewhere in me I had a life like a war vet who thinks they may walk into a mine field. Nothing was ever safe unless she chose it to be...   Don't get me wrong there were nice. But the drama of some issue in the Bpd is beyond humanly able to fix. I hope she finds her way to some healing. Because this thing is not me. I got all the blame. That's where I'm trying to to understand to deal with  ... .Thank you for the good info on this I will need to read that previous one a few times. Very deep but it's true when you see and live this it is deep and so is the pain and suffering for the non BPD is deep. What is a pw BPD. What is PW

[oortcloud]

I propose this question because I believe I knew my ex had BPD and I know I accepted her for it. I was told many times to either leave her or accept her. I was fully aware of my situation.  Did I expect the unexpected B/U from hell during the holidays, smear campaign , Painted pure black, and Life changing in a tornado during jingle bells? NO I DIDN"T see that one.

So I believe I was the pretty grounded individual who was obviously with a very disordered person who seemed pretty predictable for the most part. All of a sudden went into full trigger and saw me as " a DEMON?" I really dont know what they see? But i felt like I was a monster to her.

So Ive been asked about myself and I am looking at this trying to make sense so I dont have to go through my life wondering what the heck is wrong with me?  I

I think with my ex she was reliving her childhood through ME?

Does any one get that? I became her Mom , I became her dad, I became her sexually abusive step dad?

Just wondering if we were innocent bystanders in this drama in thier minds?

I am right there with you. My ex also lived her childhood trauma through me. I often felt like she had taken on the role of her abusive mother, and me her. She went into her rages where she told me off and reprimanded me like a child. I did everything for her while we were together, made a lot of sacrifices, and was treated terribly. After the breakup I was the victim of her hot and cold behaviour (I guess she was struggling with how to behave around me), then I was discarded once I confronted her about how terribly she was treating me (a big no no: we're not allowed to get angry but they are), and then painted black as if I am a demon.

I made the mistake of telling her once that her behaviour towards me reminded me of how she told me her mother had treated her, and all hell broke loose.

[Infared]

I propose this question because I believe I knew my ex had BPD and I know I accepted her for it. I was told many times to either leave her or accept her. I was fully aware of my situation.  :)id I expect the unexpected B/U from hell during the holidays, smear campaign , Painted pure black, and Life changing in a tornado during jingle bells? NO I DIDN"T see that one.

So I believe I was the pretty grounded individual who was obviously with a very disordered person who seemed pretty predictable for the most part. All of a sudden went into full trigger and saw me as " a DEMON?" I really dont know what they see? But i felt like I was a monster to her.

So Ive been asked about myself and I am looking at this trying to make sense so I dont have to go through my life wondering what the heck is wrong with me?  I

I think with my ex she was reliving her childhood through ME?

Does any one get that? I became her Mom , I became her dad, I became her sexually abusive step dad?

Just wondering if we were innocent bystanders in this drama in thier minds?

I had this same behavior with mine at Christmas (not this past one).  Mine  of course had new supply to help her through all of her abusive behavior to me as she played innocent victim and lied to everyone  about everything... .it was like living through a cluster Bomb... .and the I had to find out she was cheating on me too. MERRY CHRISTMAS!   (actuall it was not confirmed for a few weeks... .but my head knew it... .my heart just wouldn't... .who runs off at Christmas?)

No abusive step dad in my story.

Your question:Re: Is the lesson always the NON's to learn?

 I believe YES. We have consciences, morals, introspection, etc. we assess the situation, take accountability, or at least try to.

BPD's do none of that. Mine hooked up, got cozy, moved out (left me in our home, feeding her cats and putting up a Christmas tree by myself), and left me there in a lot of pain wondering what was going on... .bewildered.

So... no... .my ex learned that all of her lying, manipulating and victimhood got her just what she wanted... .what lesson?

[downwhim]

My ex also got what he wanted by lying, manipulating and moving on to a replacement to idealize. I too was left to explain to friends and family why I was no longer getting married as he was under the radar with his new "twin" of me.

Amazing how twisted and devastating this can all be as we stand alone and say to ourselves what is happening, nothing makes sense and then slowly with knowledge the pieces to the puzzle start to fit.

It is so very hard to get through this. I am now readying The Journey from Abandonment to Healing. I would suggest this book. I am soaking in as much as I can to learn how I can change so this never happens again. Now if I could only get a new heart so I would not feel... . to all of you.

[Infared]

My ex also got what he wanted by lying, manipulating and moving on to a replacement to idealize. I too was left to explain to friends and family why I was no longer getting married as he was under the radar with his new "twin" of me.

Amazing how twisted and devastating this can all be as we stand alone and say to ourselves what is happening, nothing makes sense and then slowly with knowledge the pieces to the puzzle start to fit.

It is so very hard to get through this. I am now readying The Journey from Abandonment to Healing. I would suggest this book. I am soaking in as much as I can to learn how I can change so this never happens again. Now if I could only get a new heart so I would not feel... . to all of you.

Yeah... it all similar to what I went through... .and they are soo good at it ... .EXPERT... .With the people around you: it seems that nobody sees or has time to or cares what just happened.  I felt that I was destroyed by a master manipulator... .and since I am honest and play fair... .I was just "F"'ed.  Truly.  

That is a very good book... .if used as a tool to heal and not flog oneself with! LOL!  

[downwhim]

I will make sure and not FOG myself with the book . Masters they are at manipulation. Mine exBPD fiancé use to bring me flowers. Once he started to paint me black, I made a joke and said hey my table is bare and his response was in a very demeaning tone, "yah, I be you want flowers," that same night we were watching a movie and a sex scene came on, "yah, we use to do that." He was withholding sex, intimacy, affection, conversation, anything he could to get ME to break up with HIM so he wasn't the bad guy. Cruel comments and then the rages over NOTHING.

God, we put up with so much... .

[christin5433]

Such good stuff thanks. It's so true I think I read this info because I was fully and I mean FULLY manipulated. And the catch is I was called the manipulator ? First off Id walk around dealing w her in fear and also trying to keep my composure of " I'm secure" as I knew I wasn't and I was on a slow deterioration that last year. At the same time I was researching BPD not only for her but for my own sanity. She I see in my mind and she knows how to come off in control and confident and her victim role is amazing . If I ever acted like a victim which I def was I was brow beaten no compassion . I was never faking my victim I seriously was hurting and confused. Wow to have a NEED was like I was a ax murder from some B -rated movie. I was lame to her and the name calling jabs were her solution to my pain. Can that be healthy I knew it wasn't but shoot I knew you can't change people u can only change yourself and ur reaction .

I did exactly what one reply mentioned , I began telling her exactly what she was doing... .Circular arguing , name calling, being mean, controlling , and tell her she was just wrong . Boy was I gonna be made to size . Tiny and smashed, then make up due to me pushing resolve . Kiss and say sorry I'd explain. Distract . Or just leave until she's done w arguing.

Well she stepped it up a notch... .She began finding people to co sign her not getting her independence her being controlled and manipulated and I was painted as a very abusive smothering clingy partner. Pure lies.

They are manipulation and others don't have the time they just listen and I guess it's the friends you pick , because my friends actually don't let me trash talk. So it's true you are who you hang out with? And if we are non BPDs confused others who don't get all the interpersonal junk they dish out ... .Are def not seeing. They probably believe these BPD's because no one believes someone can lie w such confidence. Even I believed the lies. It's just this past month being post b/u I'm seeing how lied to I was. And the other person who had the Christmas b/u. I feel ur need for a new heart. Mines not broken its shattered . Hope is what we need to keep finding ourselves and learning. To find some semblance of forgiveness and awareness. I'm in and out of pain anger and lately thru this site some acceptance.

[Infared]

I will make sure and not FOG myself with the book . Masters they are at manipulation. Mine exBPD fiancé use to bring me flowers. Once he started to paint me black, I made a joke and said hey my table is bare and his response was in a very demeaning tone, "yah, I be you want flowers," that same night we were watching a movie and a sex scene came on, "yah, we use to do that." He was withholding sex, intimacy, affection, conversation, anything he could to get ME to break up with HIM so he wasn't the bad guy. Cruel comments and then the rages over NOTHING.

God, we put up with so much... .

Interesting ... .both or our respective partners were destroying our relationships but completely differently. I had a innie... .you had an outie.     Mine turned her resentment inside and was out cheating on me... .I had no clue until she cut and ran... .came home a week before Christmas and announce that she was leaving me ... .I was stunned but KNEW that she could not do that on her own, that there had to be a replacement for me... .but it took my heart a long time to catch up with my head... .

You had yours right out in your face driving you to the same place as mine with a different kind of manipulation... .and BOTH of them took no responsibility for doing what they were doing.  Mine just lied... .yours was trying to get you to crack and take responsibility for his manipulation.  How sick. 

[raisins3142]

They probably believe these BPD's because no one believes someone can lie w such confidence. Even I believed the lies.

It is not politically correct to question someone claiming to be a victim.  Instead, the popular narrative is that we are all supposed to nod our heads and offer unquestioning support.

[billypilgrim]

They probably believe these BPD's because no one believes someone can lie w such confidence. Even I believed the lies.

It is not politically correct to question someone claiming to be a victim.  Instead, the popular narrative is that we are all supposed to nod our heads and offer unquestioning support.

This is where the feelings = facts come in to play.  I don't even know if it's conscious with them sometimes.  I think their feelings are just so overwhelming, that they don't even realize what they are doing.  They need so deeply that they lie, cheat, act out, pout, scream, whatever in order to get whatever it is they want from us.  It's almost an "at all costs" type of war they wage sometimes. 

Did any of you ever try sitting down and talking through some of your partner's acting out episodes?  I did.  I either got so frustrated that I had to leave (only made things worse) or we went around and around so much that I just caved and let it go.  Nothing ever improved.  We never got to the bottom of anything.  It's crazy making.

 

[christin5433]

Yes I tried reasoning with a unreasonable person many many times. We hung out daily we talked daily. Shed say I was making her call me at designated times lunch and after work. I'd tell her I liked that she called but it wasn't necessary. I show and tell I liked talking w her. She'd do it normal some days and some days shed totally resented me. So I began not really talking when shed call unless she'd perk up a good conversation ... .I guess I am wondering why it hurts thinking of this. Even these touching times to reconnect was becoming weird . I mean each thing that connected us was turning to be awkward. She'd call me rigid?

I hate sometimes thinking if this stuff because its just nonsense . It makes no sense?

And we try to keep making it work or wait until its them again the one that loves us.

It's good to learn and be out of the r/s I may feel still anchored there but I'm loosing the grip by just stopping and letting her go. If someone can what is a (pw)in front of word BPD?

[raisins3142]

Yes I tried reasoning with a unreasonable person many many times. We hung out daily we talked daily. Shed say I was making her call me at designated times lunch and after work. I'd tell her I liked that she called but it wasn't necessary. I show and tell I liked talking w her. She'd do it normal some days and some days shed totally resented me. So I began not really talking when shed call unless she'd perk up a good conversation ... .I guess I am wondering why it hurts thinking of this. Even these touching times to reconnect was becoming weird . I mean each thing that connected us was turning to be awkward. She'd call me rigid?

I hate sometimes thinking if this stuff because its just nonsense . It makes no sense?

And we try to keep making it work or wait until its them again the one that loves us.

It's good to learn and be out of the r/s I may feel still anchored there but I'm loosing the grip by just stopping and letting her go. If someone can what is a (pw)in front of word BPD?

When I was being devalued suddenly, she stopped responding to my texts, etc except for maybe once per day, and so I started contacting her less and less so as not to come off as a "try hard", but I was upset by this sudden change.  Later, she said that when I told her little things about my day like "hey, me and my dog are at the dog park. thinking of you!" that she thought I was trying to pry as far as what she was doing and also trying to micro-manage her (What the heck!).  I told her that sounded like the words of a guilty person.  I'll never know what she was really up to.  I'm obviously still rather angry.

[christin5433]

When I was being devalued suddenly, she stopped responding to my texts, etc except for maybe once per day, and so I started contacting her less and less so as not to come off as a "try hard", but I was upset by this sudden change.  Later, she said that when I told her little things about my day like "hey, me and my dog are at the dog park. thinking of you!" that she thought I was trying to pry as far as what she was doing and also trying to micro-manage her (What the heck!).  I told her that sounded like the words of a guilty person.  I'll never know what she was really up to.  I'm obviously still rather angry.[/quote]
I'm glad u said that because I'm definitely angry and it sucks. But u made me laugh because that was always my thought ... .What the heck ! Seriously me just talking was me being suspicious not trusting and just not cool at all. God thank you for this because I actually was missing her today . Not consciously but just part of the grieving.  And reading that assures me that's really what I'm missing nonsense . Never could be playful or flirtatious and def not show u need.

[raisins3142]

I'm glad u said that because I'm definitely angry and it sucks. But u made me laugh because that was always my thought ... .What the heck ! Seriously me just talking was me being suspicious not trusting and just not cool at all. God thank you for this because I actually was missing her today . Not consciously but just part of the grieving.  And reading that assures me that's really what I'm missing nonsense . Never could be playful or flirtatious and def not show u need.

One thing that is helpful here and in person with friends/family, I've found, is to describe the situation and then your reaction and then the BPD's reaction.  And be super accurate, I don't get much validation when I know I am spinning things.

For instance, my very close friend, his GF, and I were out the other night.  I described to her, his GF, how after being exclusive my uBPDexgf would go off in front of me and sit alone with men by themselves (not a group, just her and one guy alone that approached her or she picked out), exclude me from the conversation, and smile/talk/laugh/flirt/drink with them for an hour or more, while I was sitting by myself.  And then when I mentioned something to her, I was insecure and jealous and it was my issue.  Mind you, we weren't in some social scene where everyone was expected to mix and do this.  It was literally a small group of us or just she and I, and she would abandon me for fresh "supply" and possibly to make me jealous as well, which is possible future "supply".

When I saw my friend's GF's aghast look at my telling of this and her telling me "no, that is horrible, you are absolutely right, and everyone knows that", it gave me strength.  It made me feel that I was the one that understood usual behavior and social "rules", so to speak, and had a modicum of social awareness and tact and my ex either didn't know these rules or lacked awareness or ignored them for whatever reason.  Anyways, a bit of a vent, but it feels good.

Good luck, christin, I enjoy your posts and think you are on the right track here.  Regards.

[HappyNihilist]

This is a lot of information to understand I would like to read more on this because its such a relief to know that I can rest assure I could never no matter what I gave to the r/s that was of nurture and stability shed always try to destroy it in some unreasonable fashion.

You can definitely rest assured, christin.   

Borderlines have a deep-seated fear of intimacy. The sad irony of the disorder is that loving someone triggers it. The borderline's core fears of abandonment and engulfment become activated in relationships. And when a borderline's fears are triggered, he/she in essence emotionally relives the initial childhood trauma. Until the borderline addresses and resolves this core wound, he/she will continue to repeat these disordered patterns.

There is, of course, a lot of great information, advice, and resources here. I think you might find these two members' posts especially helpful in understanding more about BPD:

oceanheart, who is recovered from BPD (profile here)

2010 (profile here)

Below are some articles that have been very helpful to me. BPD is a complex disorder, and there's a lot to process. I've been researching BPD specifically for over a year, but I've had years of experience with and research into mental health -- and I'm still processing and learning.

Steve Hein, "The Dark Side of Emotional Intelligence" (full article here)

Peter Fonagy, "Attachment and Borderline Personality Disorder"(PDF of article here)

Dolores Mosquera, "Early Experience, Structural Dissociation, and Emotional Dysregulation in Borderline Personality Disorder" (full article here)

Julian Ford, "Complex PTSD, Affect Dysregulation, and BPD" (full article here)

A.J. Mahari (a recovered BPD), "Incapable of Intimacy: The Borderline Push/Pull" (full article here)

What is a pw BPD. What is PW

pw is forum shorthand for "person with" - so pwBPD = person with BPD.