Soon to be a Dad - Nightmare Mum Help

[MountainClimber]

Hi,

I'm a newbie, so hello all and thanks for reading my soon-to-be long post. I'm also about to become a dad for the first time and would be so grateful for any of your wisdom. Thank you.

I have a mother in her 70's who on the face of it is a charming, funny, young-spirited mum. However she has a NPD ('Queen' category) and can be unbelieveably, UNBELIEVABLY (!) difficult.

I'm in my 40's. Always was close to my M and D (he's alive still), but me and my  brother had lots of experience of them fighting. M was fierce - kicking D out, calling him awful names, sometimes hitting him. He got ill several years ago and lost his hearing, and recently been in and out of hospital with major ops and is recovering, but she seems to take all her anger out on him.

When my brother got married before me, my M made his wedding arrangements hell, threatening not to come etc, and when he had his first baby, she came to the house as soon as they arrived back from hospital and had a shouting match with his exhausted wife about not saying thank you for bringing food over. They have had hell dealing with her and arrangements over theit two young kids. It's always 'When can we see you?' 'Why can't we see you tomorrow?' A constant nagging with recriminations - angry phone calls, emails, turning up at their house etc. Basically, we've noticed, all big occasions somehow become about her and get ruined.

When I met my amazing wife to be 5 years ago, things were kinda ok till we got engaged. Our engagement was ruined by the demands of my M - wanting to throw a party, and when that was denied (my wife is shy and we wanted to do it our way) became very very verbally aggressive to me, (I mean, so so shocking) and turned me and W into nervous wrecks. Our wedding was also ruined by her - we both had to see therapists and doctors due to stress it caused us. She threatened (like with my brother) not to come, told us her friends didn't want to come, and my wife was sick on the actual day and we had to duck out of our own wedding early. We think it's cos of the stress caused by M and having her at the wedding etc. We have never forgiven her for this. Our honeymoon was amazing, but marred by the stress from the wedding. When we came back, it was shouting matches from her that we hadn't gone to see her soon enough, so we cut off for a month, then followed by three months of email arguments about why she shouldn't apologise and it was my wife's fault.

I have since learnt not to engage with such emails or conversation with her as it's a NPD nightmare. So, I have since read lots of great books on how to deal with such parents ('Toxic Parents' being an amazing book btw) and seen a therapist a lot. Basically it was a wake-up call when my W told me that this family behaviour was not normal. Things like M and D turning up at the house at night and banging on the door to see us (after the wedding as my M 'couldn't understand' why we were hardly seeing them - we had told them we needed a break from them for a while). My D is basically under her spell, and cos he can't hear properly and not in great health just wants an easy life and is scared of her. I can't have a private chat with him - it's hard cos of his hearing and he's always with my M. It's just very stressful for me.

Anyway, I have operated medium chill with my M for about 2 years now - since the wedding, and it's hard, as she is so so stubborn and keeps trying to see me more (i see her every two weeks, my wife less) and totally aware that I have a sort of barrier up when I am with her. She is obsessed with the notion of 'family' - meaning her as the queen bee, and her two sons (now in 40's ) running around her.  Only this week she booked a holiday to the same place as my brother and his wife and kids and the same time. My brother was furious. She said 'I better get to see you and the kids on holiday' and when my brother told her 'no, we are having our family week off together and alone' she said 'Well, I will turn up every day then'. That's how crazy she is. He is now on his holiday and really worried she will do that. It's the NPS chaos thing.

My W - who I so adore, and who is my soulmate and lovely and kind and comes from a normal functioning, nice family, is incredibly stressed by her, and our family occasions give her great stress and worry. When she sees my M, she tries to keep away from my M, as she fears she may suddenly turn on her (as she did one week before our wedding). My M tends to be charming and fine, but it's the anticipation and the not knowing what could happen.

Having read lots and taken loads of advice, I know not to JADE with my M about things, as she regularly says 'why can't your wife and you be normal again with me? If I mention the reason again, it leads to a spiral of mentalness and abuse etc, and shaming and guilting etc. So I don't go there.

Anyway, we're about to have our first baby. We are very excited but my W is so so worried that our life will be a nightmare cos of my M. I have assured her I will deal with my M and protect us, but it is so hard, as I guess I want them in my life a little, and want to see my dad, and just know from experience that they've been so tricky with my brother and his kids - like turning up unannounced when my brother and his kids have been out with friends etc.

I know people will say keep her out your life, but how do you effectively maintain some kind of balance? Things like saying 'This is how we are going to be running our life, mum, and you will only see us when we say so' are met with argument, anger, and she often retliates by causing probs with my dad - kicking him out the house etc, so we are often just worried about what will happen next. And how our dad, is is not very well, will cope.

I am so so much better than I was when I had the wake-up call during our engagement when my mum turned into a monster and almost managed to cause my W to be and I to split up. I have learnt not to engage with my M on emotional topics, have had lots of therapy and know that my W and my child are completely my number one priority, but it's so hard dealing with this situation.

Sorry for the massively long post. Any thoughts massively appreciated.

Thank you all

[clljhns]

Hi MountainClimber and

I am so sorry to hear about what you and your W have been going through with M. It sounds like you have a good handle on what is going on with M.

So, I have since read lots of great books on how to deal with such parents ('Toxic Parents' being an amazing book btw) and seen a therapist a lot. Basically it was a wake-up call when my W told me that this family behaviour was not normal. Things like M and D turning up at the house at night and banging on the door to see us (after the wedding as my M 'couldn't understand' why we were hardly seeing them - we had told them we needed a break from them for a while).

I am glad that you have read the book and some articles. Your M's behavior sounds very familiar. My uBPDm would show up at my oldest sister's house and sit in their driveway crying after she had a fight with our dad. My sister called my dad and told him to come and get his wife. This took a lot courage on her part, as she was always the Golden Child of my mom's and could do no wrong.

I agree that it is incredibly difficult to set boundaries with a pwBPD. Have you read the article on setting boundaries? It is on the right hand side of this board.

I don't have any words that will offer a quick fix. It takes time to set boundaries and stick to them. Your concerns about what M might do once baby comes is a valid one, given what happened with brother's new arrivals.

What boundaries have you set in the past that have worked? What boundary do you want to set with M now?

Looking forward to hearing from you!

All the best! 

[CanICallYou]

hi there! 

as much as i want to ask you, maybe i just wait for your update

[Turkish]

Hello MountainCimber, I'd like to join the others in welcoming you here.

What clljhns said about setting boundaries and sticking to them is something that needs to reinforced. Since pwBPD often don't respect boundaries, seeing others as objects they need to complete their empty selves, it's up to us to enforce them.  From your story, it sounds like your mom doesn't respect them, period. We have a discussion here regarding this:

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

Have you also read Understanding The Borderline Mother? Your mom sounds very Queenish to me, and at the end of that book, the author gives some tips on how to do this with the various types of BPD mothers.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Waif, Hermit, Queen, and Witch

All in all, I'm glad you've set a boundary around you and your wife's r/s. She and your baby are now your primary family. Parents, even ones not with a PD, often don't respect this.

[P.F.Change]

Hi, MountainClimber, and 

Your family of origin sounds a lot like mine. I definitely understand what it's like to have parents who don't understand why other people would want to have boundaries and who feel entitled to get their way 100% of the time. It's good that you've already learned that Justifying, Arguing, Defending, and Explaining yourself won't change that. I found Toxic Parents helpful, too. You might also want to have a look at Children of the Self-Absorbed sometime. It is written primarily for people whose parents have NPD. There is also a workshop here that some people have found helpful: TOOLS: Dealing with narcissists by reinforcing the positive. My mother has BPD, but most of my father's family had NPD, so it has helped me to look into it a little bit. One thing I have learned is that the validation techniques that are so helpful when communicating with someone who has BPD might be interpreted as condescending when applied to a conversation with a Narcissistic personality. A lot of people find they backfire. Not saying that is always the case, but it is something to keep in mind if you decide to want to try them at some point.

I know people will say keep her out your life, but how do you effectively maintain some kind of balance? Things like saying 'This is how we are going to be running our life, mum, and you will only see us when we say so' are met with argument, anger, and she often retliates by causing probs with my dad - kicking him out the house etc, so we are often just worried about what will happen next. And how our dad, is is not very well, will cope.

Here at bpdfamily, we are all about looking for that balance. No one here is going to tell you that the best solution is always to cut and run. One thing that might help you is to accept that you cannot control your mother's behavior. She is going to be who she is and behave how she behaves regardless of what you do or don't do. You can't change that. You are not responsible for how she treats your father when she is mad at you or anyone else. If your mother has NPD, you are not going to be able to convince her that you have a right to say no--she is not going to validate that for you--you will just have to decide for yourself that you do have that right, and then exercise it when you need to. And no, she is not going to be happy about that, but it is not your job to make her happy. It is your job to create a safe and happy environment for you, your wife, and your child. She doesn't have to understand that. Here are two workshops that helped me a lot--you might find something useful in them, too: Getting Our Values and Boundaries in Order and TOOLS: Radical Acceptance for Family Members.

It would probably be helpful for you and your wife to talk ahead of time about how often you would like your mother to visit your children; when she will be invited to see you during/after the birth; what you will do if she behaves in a way you do not find acceptable when she is around your children; whether she will be allowed to babysit or spend time alone with your children; whether she will participate in birthday parties and until what ages; and so on and so forth. Come up with a plan for what you will do in any particular unwanted situation. For example, if she shows up at your house uninvited, will you answer the door and let her in? Will you answer it and tell her to go away? Will you not answer? Will you call the police to have her removed? Whatever you decide, it really helps to have a plan ahead of time. Have you and your wife already had these conversations?

Given the way you have already seen her behave with your brother, if there is any time or place you would not like your mother to pop up, it might be a good idea not to divulge those kind of details to her. For example, I chose not to tell my mother I was in labor because I did not want her to show up at the hospital. In fact, I didn't even tell her which hospital I'd be using or my doctor's name. The way I see it, if information is a weapon, it doesn't make sense to voluntarily hand over the matching bullets. I think it's ok to just respond with one-liners along the lines of "I'm not going to discuss that with you."

I hope to hear more from you, MountainClimber. Let us know if there's anything else we can help you with.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[MountainClimber]

Thank you everyone who replied. I really appreciate it. Yes we have had to implement barriers - some of them have worked in the past. Like they have turned up at the house and knocked on the door and we ignored them, even though they could see us through the glass of the door, walking around the house. That has stopped for a while, but I worry it might happen again. I am aware of barrier enforcing etc, and have read loads and practiced it, it's just that it's so difficult with my M.

My W is very stressed at the moment. She is so worried about telling them she is pregnant, that we will have a repeat of the horrors we had when we got engaged and married. She gets understandably stressed and wants to see them very little. I respect that but worry that my M will be such trouble and she always has the option to be horrid to my D who can't communicate well with us, and who is not in great health, and I guess I find it hard to deal with the stress myself. Having someone who can be kinda nice (my M) and things get better, then turns on you. I always have my guard up when I see her, but it is just so stressful how unpredictable she can be.