Court ordered psych eval?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all. I haven't been on this site in a very long time, but find myself still needing support/advice from people who know the BPD story.

Extremely brief backstory: I left early last summer. He began stalking harassing, threatened me, himself, family members, etc. First custody order was agreed to via email but he suddenly disagreed with much of it once we got to court. A protection order became necessary due to the constant stalking, harassment and one physical assault. Months went by with millions of small examples of absolute "crazy" behavior. I began dating someone. The ex decided that my boyfriend is "inappropriate" with our daughter, age 9. There's no basis for this, they've never met (or, hadn't at that point). This is when ex began telling daughter that boyfriend is dangerous. Telling her she shouldn't let him tell her what to do or touch her in any way INCLUDING a handshake, high five, or anything else. I filed for support. He immediately lost his job and began telling daughter that he was going to be homeless and he would have to give her kittens away. Constant emails (I don't take calls or respond to texts from him) telling me how to run my household, what parts of his life are my fault, cursing, calling names, making demands, etc. I'm sure you're all familiar with the behavior.

So that's what I'm dealing with, in a nutshell. We went for a custody modification recently. During that, he was ordered to undergo a complete psychological evaluation. He has 45 days to pay and an additional 45 days to complete. If he misses those deadlines- either one- it is reported to the court. So my question is this... .what happens when they report him? He's made it quite clear he won't comply and I'm wondering what happens next.

[Emhain]

Hi all. I haven't been on this site in a very long time, but find myself still needing support/advice from people who know the BPD story.

Extremely brief backstory: I left early last summer. He began stalking harassing, threatened me, himself, family members, etc. First custody order was agreed to via email but he suddenly disagreed with much of it once we got to court. A protection order became necessary due to the constant stalking, harassment and one physical assault. Months went by with millions of small examples of absolute "crazy" behavior. I began dating someone. The ex decided that my boyfriend is "inappropriate" with our daughter, age 9. There's no basis for this, they've never met (or, hadn't at that point). This is when ex began telling daughter that boyfriend is dangerous. Telling her she shouldn't let him tell her what to do or touch her in any way INCLUDING a handshake, high five, or anything else. I filed for support. He immediately lost his job and began telling daughter that he was going to be homeless and he would have to give her kittens away. Constant emails (I don't take calls or respond to texts from him) telling me how to run my household, what parts of his life are my fault, cursing, calling names, making demands, etc. I'm sure you're all familiar with the behavior.

So that's what I'm dealing with, in a nutshell. We went for a custody modification recently. During that, he was ordered to undergo a complete psychological evaluation. He has 45 days to pay and an additional 45 days to complete. If he misses those deadlines- either one- it is reported to the court. So my question is this... .what happens when they report him? He's made it quite clear he won't comply and I'm wondering what happens next.

[ogopogodude]

I will be watching your posts on this topic as I am expecting the same "no compliance aka defiance" from my ex in the court room.

I am soon going for a mandatory section 15 psychiatric evaluation as soon as I am easily able to prove that my ex is a very troubled lady and a danger to herself and others (and our kids). She will have (undoubtedly) pay for this (but I will be happy to pay 1/2 just so I can see her squirm--> she adamantly refuses that there is anything wrong with her, but I can easily prove this to be false).

[scraps66]

It depends how serious your courthouse is and whether they take enforcing orders seriously.  I had the unfortunate circumstance of the court and my attorney botching a court ordered psych eval.  Custody master ordered it, second judge ordered it, one contempt hearing, a second hearing to enforce and she produced a bogus psych eval.  The court blundered by writing orders that did not specify the Dr that ex was to use.  So now here I am five years later without the benefit of a credible psych eval of my ex to support my case.

So even though this has been ordered, it may be difficult to actually make it happen.  Then, there is the what to do about the results.  If the court and the attorneys don't know how to work constructively with the results, it may have little impact.

Not raining on the parade, just letting you know to make sure your attorney is on top of this and that the order states: which Dr. to use, what exactly is beign administered, it should be the MMPI-2 and other supporting tests, the roder should note that a report is to be written and provided to both attorneys.

[jannieslosthope]

Hi Emhain,

I had custody issues with my first husband, he wasn't BPD but he was abusive and unhealthy around the kids. If it comes to the kiddos mental or physical safety you can request supervised visitation due to his erratic moods, ect. That it's not a healthy or safe environment for the kids (even him saying bad things about you in front of the kids). If he avoids the eval, the judge (depending on state) can put him in jail or fine him for ignoring a court order. Judges don't like it when people don't follow basic instructions and him not doing what the judge says can only help your case. I got a criminal defense attorney that also handled divorce/custody issues. They seem to be better options for legal help on your side, especially when dealing with someone who is unpredictable. If you have the funds I would get one, especially because of the type of person your dealing with. My husband (2nd husband) has BPD and he is becoming a nightmare in the legal court realm. I wish you lots of luck and whatever you do stay above board on everything you do... .Honesty and a strong fight for you babies from the heart is all you need to prevail. If he cared about his kids he would get help and be the dad they need, BPD or not. your a good parent, wanting what's best for your offspring... .Keep reminding yourself of that. I hope the hubby gets the help he needs too for the kids.

[scraps66]

This is good info.  My position and jannies probably define the possible range of outcomes with the determining factor being the competence in your courthouse.  As I said, in my case the court-ordered psych eval has had no effect as the court did a poor job orchestrating what should have been done. 

Just "asking" for something in court, that doesn't necessarily get you anything without some substantiation behind your request.  That substantiation can end up costing you lots of $$$$.  In my case, including the $2k for my own credible psych eval, I probably invested $5k total for something that just gave me a lot of grief because I still don't have a psych eval of my exNPD/BPD and that drives me nuts because it feeds her distorted view of reality.   

[ForeverDad]

In my area a psychological evaluation (PE) was ordered when ex and I first separated and had allegations against each other.  We were to give the results to both lawyers.  My PE evaluator was a young grad student from the local university under supervision of a county mental health services center.  The report just barely made it longer than one page, no surprise, I had 'anxiety'.   We shared my report.  Guess what, ex never shared her report, I never found out whether she ever got the PE.  So much for compliance, court ignored the issue.

Later in the divorce we had a custody evaluation (CE) was was much more in depth.  It was done by a child psychologist.  Psych tests, multiple sessions with and without our child, etc.  Despite my ex having past majority parenting time as a Stay At Home Mother (SAHM), the initial report put me solidly in favor but didn't say mother shouldn't parent.  "Mother can't share 'her' child but father can... .Mother should immediately lose temporary custody... .If Shared Parenting is attempted and fails then father should have custody... ."  Since ex was willing to settle on Trial Day and all the professionals expected or were okay with a settlement, I settled and the report wasn't used in court.  The Shared Parenting did fail due to continuing incidents and after jumping through many hoops I eventually got custody.

My concern with your case is that a PE may reveal issues with your ex but may not "connect the dots" strongly enough regarding his parenting behaviors to give the court impetus to make the necessary changes.  At lot depends on whether the PE would include comments, warnings or recommendations about his parenting.  That's the difference between a PE and a CE in my area, one is a person's psych issues, the other is how the issues affect custody and parenting.  As illustration, if a PE is seen as different from a CE in your area, a PE may identify dependency issues such as alcoholism, but a CE would include a person driving drunk and how children are put at risk from the behaviors triggered by the issues.  I hope that doesn't confuse you.

[scraps66]

I'll add to what FD states, and what I feel would have been helpful in my case. At least, if you do both get credible psych evals, and there are significant mental health issues documented in the report, that would at least give you some confidence that spending extra money, if by chance the court and lawyers can't use the PE results alone, on a full blown custody evaluation would be money well spent.  You'd have the PE results in hand and it would be a good piece of info to use in deciding whether a CE is worthwhile or not.  A CE would allow you to include collateral witness that could speak of ex's behaviors, school personnel, family members, daycare people, etc etc.

[ogopogodude]

It depends how serious your courthouse is and whether they take enforcing orders seriously.  I had the unfortunate circumstance of the court and my attorney botching a court ordered psych eval.  Custody master ordered it, second judge ordered it, one contempt hearing, a second hearing to enforce and she produced a bogus psych eval.  The court blundered by writing orders that did not specify the Dr that ex was to use.  So now here I am five years later without the benefit of a credible psych eval of my ex to support my case.

So even though this has been ordered, it may be difficult to actually make it happen.  Then, there is the what to do about the results.  If the court and the attorneys don't know how to work constructively with the results, it may have little impact.

Not raining on the parade, just letting you know to make sure your attorney is on top of this and that the order states: which Dr. to use, what exactly is beign administered, it should be the MMPI-2 and other supporting tests, the roder should note that a report is to be written and provided to both attorneys.

THANKS... ! I will make darn sure that I have my L clearly spell it out (and have it in writing) the name of a psychiatrist and the NUMBER of times that she must go to see him/her as well as if there is ongoing appointments/therapy. 

As they say ... "one (a BPD) can fool some of the people SOME of the time,  but one (the BPD afflicted person) cannot fool all the people ALL the time" --> meaning a trained psychiatrist cannot be fooled by the BPD person, if they go the required amount of times to the therapist , etc

[livednlearned]

We went for a custody modification recently. During that, he was ordered to undergo a complete psychological evaluation. He has 45 days to pay and an additional 45 days to complete. If he misses those deadlines- either one- it is reported to the court. So my question is this... .what happens when they report him? He's made it quite clear he won't comply and I'm wondering what happens next.

I went through this exact scenario, including having a new BF and my ex making false allegations that BF was a dangerous pedophile.

Is anything contingent on your ex's compliance with the psych eval? Meaning, did the judge say: everything stays status quo until we have a psych eval. Or was it something else? And is the custody modification for visitation, or is it for sole legal custody (or something else)? There are a bunch of possible scenarios:

1. He does not get the psych eval, does not show up in court

2. He does not get the psych eval, but shows up in court and asks for an extension

3. He gets a bogus psych eval

4. The psych eval + diagnosis says he has a mental illness or something else

Each of these will lead to a different outcome. Let's say he does #1 or 2.

If you need your ex to comply so that you can get a modification of custody, then you'll be back in court filing a motion for contempt (because he didn't get the psych eval). You'll want to roll this together with modification for custody. If you do this, make sure that your L writes up the court order issued by the judge, and make sure your L includes language that is very specific about the consequences. Judges like to give people a lot of chances. You want to cut down on that as much as possible. For example, "Court ordered BPD father to get a psych eval, but he did not comply. Court grants an extension of 30 days to comply. If BPD father has not complied with the court order, modification of custody will be granted." Or whatever the terms are that you are trying to get. What you want to do is get the judge to agree to consequences at the hearing where he or she is making the ruling. Not wait until you're back in court -- because that means the judge will determine the consequence, and more often than not, it won't be what you want, or it will be some kind of extension. Which costs you time and money, without getting the outcome you want, at least not right away. I hope that makes sense.

Another thing you can do is to keep stacking things on your ex. Ask for him to comply with anger management classes, parenting classes, substance abuse treatment (if warranted), and an MMPI-2 psychiatric evaluation. It's a good idea to have the name of the psychiatrist, but in my case, we just specified a forensic psychiatrist with expertise in administering the MMPI-2.

The short story of my case is that my ex got a psych eval -- not the MMPI-2. And the forensic psychiatrist did not make a diagnosis (they don't like to unless it's with the MMPI-2). She wrote that "a personality disorder cannot be ruled out." Or something like that. Even though there was no diagnosis, the report was pretty damaging, especially in light of the other documentation I had. Do you know if you are permitted to read the report? Often, only the Ls and the judge are permitted to read it, or any third-party professionals involved in the case.

If #3 or #4 happen, you might be confronted with a different strategy. It's good to think ahead and have a plan.

[ForeverDad]

Judges like to give people a lot of chances... .You want to cut down on that as much as possible.

I started with alternate weekends and a Thursday evening in between for two temporary orders.  A mere 22%, though nothing made me look like a poorly behaving parent.  Yes, stbEx was making allegations, but they were false (court considered 'unsubstantiated'.  Two years later our final decree was a 50% settlement with me as Residential Parent.  Problems continued.  Three years later after I won a Change of Circumstances we settled for GAL's recommendation that I become Legal Custodian but GAL thought changing the parenting schedule wasn't necessary.  Problems still continued.  Back to court yet again seeking majority time that was denied before.  The decision noted GAL's report recommended I have majority time during the school year but summers unchanged.  (I believe the GAL's testimony indicated that wasn't still her recommendation but either that wasn't pursued or the magistrate ignored it and stuck to the report.)  "Mother has been unable to control her outbursts or verbal deprecation of Father, despite previous warnings from the court and/or the GAL.  However, after considerable thought, this magistrate is willing to give Mother one more try... ."   The new schedule gave mother 25% during the school year and 50% during the summer.

In other words, Mother (ex) with poor history still has more time than Father (me) when I had neutral history at the start.

In other words, too, court generally doesn't see any urgency, makes fixes in baby steps and so lets obstructed cases take, in my case, about 18 months, plus or minus.  Anticipate obstructions, diversions, twisted claims and delays and determine strategies to overcome them as the comments above stressed.

So LnL's suggestion to have an order include stated consequences for failure to comply can sidestep returns to court that often just end up with a judge avoiding a decisive decision by granting more and more time to comply.  You and your proactive lawyer need to think two or even three steps ahead.

[livednlearned]

Often, the "consequences" will be sanctions. Which is when the judge agrees that the opposing party will pay your legal fees for not complying.

This sounds great on paper, but in practice it's a big pain. You have to file a motion for contempt to get your ex to pay. And there are so many ways for this to drag out. Each time you go back to court, it's costs you legal fees, unless you feel comfortable doing this pro se, or on your own.

If your L suggests sanctions as a consequence, that's fine. Just know that it's hard to collect from someone with BPD. My ex currently owes me $3500 and it will take me $1500-$1800 to take him to court to get him to pay up.  

It's better if the consequences are such that something defaults to you. "If Mr. BPD father does not do x, then legal custody goes to Emhain." You might not be able to get something that strong, but that's the basic gist that you want things to go.

[scraps66]

I know in my case the Dr. that performed my own psych eval, a very reputable forensic psychologist, wanted it stated in the order why the eval was being requested.  Along with that your lawyer should at least try to put some supporting evidence in the order.  The reason for this is that the trained forensic psychologist may elect, based on experience, to administer test complementary to the MMPI-2 based on the additional information.  Also, the credibility of the PE is somewhat based on the background that the "UUT," unit under test, the BP, provides the Dr.

In my case, however BP conveniently, my ex did not make it known that she claimed to be ADHD, has been on prescription medications for depression and ADD, was married previously, did not earn a Master's in 2006 but flunked out of her Master's program, IN 2006, did not have a "good relationship with her ex in-laws," did not have a boyfriend that visited from time to time but a boyfriend that had been living with her for over two years, and the custody arrangement was not, "going well" as she claimed in the PE report.

Get it?  Garbage in equal garbage out.   

[Emhain]

It depends how serious your courthouse is and whether they take enforcing orders seriously.  I had the unfortunate circumstance of the court and my attorney botching a court ordered psych eval.  Custody master ordered it, second judge ordered it, one contempt hearing, a second hearing to enforce and she produced a bogus psych eval.  The court blundered by writing orders that did not specify the Dr that ex was to use.  So now here I am five years later without the benefit of a credible psych eval of my ex to support my case.

So even though this has been ordered, it may be difficult to actually make it happen.  Then, there is the what to do about the results.  If the court and the attorneys don't know how to work constructively with the results, it may have little impact.

Not raining on the parade, just letting you know to make sure your attorney is on top of this and that the order states: which Dr. to use, what exactly is beign administered, it should be the MMPI-2 and other supporting tests, the roder should note that a report is to be written and provided to both attorneys.

The order does state exactly which psychologist to see, exactly how much each of us is to pay and by what date we should do so, as well as which tests should be administered and which family/friends may be interviewed. So I feel like I'm covered there. Incidentally, he missed the date to pay, has still never made any contact with the Dr. and we have court Tuesday.

[Emhain]

In my area a psychological evaluation (PE) was ordered when ex and I first separated and had allegations against each other.  We were to give the results to both lawyers.  My PE evaluator was a young grad student from the local university under supervision of a county mental health services center.  The report just barely made it longer than one page, no surprise, I had 'anxiety'.   We shared my report.  Guess what, ex never shared her report, I never found out whether she ever got the PE.  So much for compliance, court ignored the issue.

Later in the divorce we had a custody evaluation (CE) was was much more in depth.  It was done by a child psychologist.  Psych tests, multiple sessions with and without our child, etc.  Despite my ex having past majority parenting time as a Stay At Home Mother (SAHM), the initial report put me solidly in favor but didn't say mother shouldn't parent.  "Mother can't share 'her' child but father can... .Mother should immediately lose temporary custody... .If Shared Parenting is attempted and fails then father should have custody... ."  Since ex was willing to settle on Trial Day and all the professionals expected or were okay with a settlement, I settled and the report wasn't used in court.  The Shared Parenting did fail due to continuing incidents and after jumping through many hoops I eventually got custody.

My concern with your case is that a PE may reveal issues with your ex but may not "connect the dots" strongly enough regarding his parenting behaviors to give the court impetus to make the necessary changes.  At lot depends on whether the PE would include comments, warnings or recommendations about his parenting.  That's the difference between a PE and a CE in my area, one is a person's psych issues, the other is how the issues affect custody and parenting.  As illustration, if a PE is seen as different from a CE in your area, a PE may identify dependency issues such as alcoholism, but a CE would include a person driving drunk and how children are put at risk from the behaviors triggered by the issues.  I hope that doesn't confuse you.

No confusion The evaluation would have contained several psychological tests as well as interviews with family members from both sides, including the children. But, of course, he didn't comply with the order and never had an evaluation done. At our last hearing he represented himself which was nice because it allowed him room to show his true colors. Which he did and I honestly believe that his behavior that day is a main contributing factor to many of the safety measures built into our custody order. This time he will have a lawyer, but we also have the same judge. I'm interested to see how the judge feels about his refusal to follow any/all of the measures put into place (including the eval)

[livednlearned]

I'm interested to see how the judge feels about his refusal to follow any/all of the measures put into place (including the eval)

I hope your L has a strategy and is formulating a solution on your behalf so that the judge has a reasonable guideline for his ruling.

I directed my L to ask that N/BPDx undergo anger management classes, substance abuse treatment, and a psych eval. She felt those were reasonable requests under the circumstances, and that became our strategy. The judge allowed N/BPDx to continue seeing S13 with the condition that he get the three items done in 30 days. He was under strict orders to not send inappropriate messages to S13 nor angry emails to me.

N/BPDx could not do that, so when he violated the judge's warnings, we went back to court to terminate visitation. Because N/BPDx had not sought out any counseling or treatment, the judge terminated visitation.

All this to say that you want to give the judge the conditions under which your ex must comply. You know your ex won't comply, which is actually helpful. Judges don't like when people don't follow the court orders. It's disobeying the judge's authority. Who does that? Someone with BPD.

Like your ex, mine represented himself, and it allowed the judge to see an unfiltered version. When N/BPDx came into the court room, the bailiff moved from across the room to standing next to him. And the judge never started proceedings until a bailiff was in the room. The day visitation was terminated, there were two bailiffs in the room. My ex is a former trial lawyer and looks like the picture of high functioning, yet the judge came to learn he was a loose cannon.

Side note -- I hope your psych evals were ordered to be kept confidential so that your ex cannot see yours. In my case, my L was allowed to see ex's psych eval (this was from earlier in our case), and the judge. I was allowed to hear what they discussed, but was not allowed to have a copy for myself. In the hearing, N/BPDx kept asking me questions about what I thought about the psych eval, so the judge asked him if he wanted to remove confidentiality and give me a copy. He said yes, I could have a copy. I have given it to my son's psychiatrist as a way to help describe the type of dad he has.