Someone explain object permanence and recycling

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My understanding after taking part in this thread is that distancing yourself from a pwBPD can push them away because of object permanence issues. If you're not an active presence in their life, they start to forget about you and move on relatively quickly compared to a non. However, they may still attempt to recycle the relationship (which happens often based on what I've read here) if some circumstance in their life triggers their attachment to you. These two concepts seemed contradictory to me at first, but the above explanation resolves the contradiction, I think.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, and please elaborate on how this paradox has affected your relationships. Also, how is this break up-make up process different from the one that might take place in a normal relationship?

[Bensonshays]

My understanding after taking part in this thread is that distancing yourself from a pwBPD can push them away because of object permanence issues. If you're not an active presence in their life, they start to forget about you and move on relatively quickly compared to a non. However, they may still attempt to recycle the relationship (which happens often based on what I've read here) if some circumstance in their life triggers their attachment to you. These two concepts seemed contradictory to me at first, but the above explanation resolves the contradiction, I think.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, and please elaborate on how this paradox has affected your relationships. Also, how is this break up-make up process different from the one that might take place in a normal relationship?

[Sunfl0wer]

For my situation... .

Typically, if it were a non r/s for me, (a non ex) we would appreciate some time apart, however as more time passed, we would soon miss one another, both feeling a sense of minor loss of our emotional connection.  Our desire to reconnect would remain constant longing until reunited... .sometimes far off in the background of our mind, other times closer to the surface.  We would both have a mutual understanding of this missing of one another, maybe one of us missing the other a bit more or less, but generally consistent in a way.  We would still remain aware that the other existed and consider the other during decisions and behaviors... .to an extent.  Getting caught up in excitement of activities while apart can make us forget our missing of our partner, however, when that distraction is gone, the underlying emotional connection resurfaces easily. 

When my ex was away and alone, he would "forget" about me and the r/s.  It was a though he could put the connection we have into a box, on the shelf, and forget it is there until I ask him to look for it.  It seemed like for him, our connection was not a constant that blanketed his consciousness, that could come easily to the surface for him.  For him it seemed more like car keys: usually well attached to him, but he puts them down time to time when not "needed," and often forgets, misplaces or loses them.

How this played out:

He could make life decisions without considering me... .as tho he is single.  However, if he were in front of me, would profess his values are that such decisions should be made together.  When apart, he would forget about our "family" and the need for considering people not in front of him.

Also, he just had chunks of time away from me where being away from me felt to him like I didn't exist.  He didn't see the need to let me know if he was hurt or safe... .the way my non ex's would... .he didn't see why I'd be alarmed if I hadn't heard from him in days.  He just didn't know that I had a perspective to be considered that existed if I wasn't near him.

He did have times where he came home missing me and I saw a pattern to this.  If he was away but around others who knew of me and asked about me, then he seemed to miss me more than a non.  It was as if being out... .people asking... .made him feel something was missing.

[Bensonshays]

Do you think that contributed to your break up with him? For example, did you start spending less time together toward the end of the relationship, and did that make it easier for him to get over you?

The girl I was dating started to pull away the last week we were together, cancelling plans, taking longer to answer texts etc. So I backed off a little. That prompted her to call me and complain about the distance. I told her if she wanted my attention to keep our plans, you know, so we could see each other.   Her response stuck out to me because of how forthright and unique it was: "Well, when you get distant it makes me want to stay away, too."

That seemed strange because, as you said, most people "would appreciate some time apart, however as more time passed, we would soon miss one another, both feeling a sense of minor loss of our emotional connection."

[Achaya]

At the beginning of our relationship my ex used to tell me that when we were separated she had difficulty hanging on to the idea that I existed at all. When she could hang on to that much, she would then feel like we had no connection with each other. I think she got better with all that, at least temporarily, because I knocked myself out trying to make her feel connected and secure. She might also have grown some herself and improved the sense of connection, but it still wasn't very solid.

This is an example of how it worked later in our relationship. She was driving across the country to visit her family in the midwest. She texted me to tell me that there was a terrible storm where she then was, in Nebraska, and she was uncertain about what to do. She had pulled over by the side of the road because she couldn't see well enough to drive. She is not normally afraid about storms, and is too proud to admit being afraid in many situations, so I was alarmed when she told me she was really scared. We texted back and forth as I tried to get information online about the weather where she was. I found out online that a mega tornado was sweeping through the county where she was at that moment. As far as I could tell, she was a half mile from the tornado when she suddenly stopped texting me. I tried for the next hour to reach her, feeling increasingly alarmed. It was late at night at that point. Finally she text back to me "Sorry, I was talking to my brother on the phone. He is thinking about quitting heroin again."That was it. She was halfway across the country, already being sucked into her family vortex of dysfunction, and she had no sense at all that I would be so worried about her, no sense of how it felt to me that she had given me this worrisome information then dropped our conversation

In her break up note to me (yes, she left me a note), she told me that I would always be with her, in her mind, as the loving presence I had been for her during our relationship. If this is true, she has made considerable progress in holding me in her mind. If she has derived some lasting benefit from our relationship I would be glad for it, even though her gains weren't enough for her to want to keep me as a real live partner standing next to her.

[Sunfl0wer]

Do you think that contributed to your break up with him? For example, did you start spending less time together toward the end of the relationship, and did that make it easier for him to get over you?

My ex is uNPD/BPD, not typically the acting out type.  His primary dysfunctional traits were avoidance of any percieved conflict resulting in him either being PA or shunning and ST.

These issues, I believe, are the reason for the breakdown of the whole r/s. We cycled through push/pull with me being black then white and as time went on, the cycles happened faster and closer until I was a constant trigger for him.

So come to think of it... .

The answer to your question for me is that what caused him to end it, was not him imagining that I do not exist, instead, him painting me black.

I imagine that had we not lived together and were living separate households that he could have used lack of object permanence to end things more easily for him.

We also lived together post b/u for 7 months, so it is hard to deny I existed.  However, he did his best during this time to avoid me as much as possible in fear of his emotional connection.  He was afraid of feeling love for me for fear he would chicken out on his decision to leave. This caused him to provoke me to maintain my black status in his mind. What got scarey was when he could not provoke me, he got delusional, as I had never seen, to maintain that black status.

The girl I was dating started to pull away the last week we were together, cancelling plans, taking longer to answer texts etc. So I backed off a little. That prompted her to call me and complain about the distance. I told her if she wanted my attention to keep our plans, you know, so we could see each other.  rolleyes Her response stuck out to me because of how forthright and unique it was: "Well, when you get distant it makes me want to stay away, too."

That seemed strange because, as you said, most people "would appreciate some time apart, however as more time passed, we would soon miss one another, both feeling a sense of minor loss of our emotional connection."

For my ex, distance never helped, it made him get more distant.  I was always aware of this and thus took on a very caretaking type role every time he went ST.  I was aware that the longer he was distant, the deeper in the distant he became, the harder it was for him to reconnect. 

Our T pretty much made it my role to help him "find his way" back into the r/s, with no shame or punishment for his return. (which is hard not to make your partner accountable for ST of 2wks and express some hurt feelings or natural consequences) However, if he knew that he was just returning to tell him I was hurt, he would never return.  It sometimes felt like he stayed distant hoping for a length long enough for me to forget his wrong doing that I would celebrate his return... .like some prodigal son.

For him, however, I think his emotional distance was about shame... .and the longer he made distance... .the harder it was for him.

I also think he was afraid of me scolding or rejecting him. (Um... .yea... .wouldn't anyone be a bit pissed that their partner shunned them and their kid for a whole week?)

I must say, that even with T help, even when I made it super easy for him to return to the r/s without shame or punishment of any sort.  It didn't matter... .he still found a way to continue to play out the same dynamic without my contribution.

Even though it felt horrible at the time to welcome back a person who was emotionally abusive with ST and such... .I'm actually glad that I did do this for a while.  It helps me to relieve my conscious of the notion that had I just made it easy for him to return... .we would be together.  The truth is... .I DID make it easy for a considerable amount of time... .and he STILL went through his same dynamics without my help at all.

He brought that dynamic to me entering the r/s.  Yea, I was part of it at times.  But he can continue all on his own and it doesn't matter one bit if I am there or not... .his mind still goes where it goes, same cycles and such, all on it's own.

I think if he is spending time with friends that know of me and the b/u, that their conversations with him will make grieving more normal like mine, as I will have sort of a presence in the conversations and in their awareness. (as he has little sense of self, therefore will miss me through friends that ask him about the r/s sympathetically)

I think if he instead finds friends to hang with who have no idea who I am, therefore do not treat him like someone who just had a b/u, don't ask about me, or how he is, then he will stick memories of us in a box and "forget" me quite unusually and effectively. (as a non I cannot do)

[Dunder]

The concept of object permanence is part of theories of early child development and not strictly related to BPD. The theory goes that within the first months of life, infants  only believe that objects exist if they can perceive them through their senses. The classic example of an infant lacking object permanence is when a mother walks away from her baby to answer the telephone in another room. As soon as the mother is out of the infant's sight, the baby cries because the baby has yet to grasp the concept that just because you can't see a person doesn't mean that person fails to exist. Over the course of a child's development, the baby and then the child gradually develop the sense of object permanence, but it doesn't happen overnight and it is learned, not hard wired just like empathy is a learned behavior and not hard wired. The theory goes that if a child suffers some kind of emotional, psychological or physical trauma while this concept is still developing, then that trauma could retard the child's development in this area. Much of what I have read regarding BPD and theories of object permanence argue that the clingy neediness and fear of abandonment that so many pwBPD exhibit are rooted in such a trauma and a weak grasp of object permanence; they may rationally know that people who are  not in their presence continue to exist, but absence of another person stirs up that old anxiety of being abandoned, that feeling that infants must feel before they've learned object permanence. I suffer from separation anxiety from time to time when I leave home or my family and it goes back to a childhood trauma I suffered but it's nothing compared to what Borderlines suffer with. I travel a lot for my job and I get a little twinge now and then but I never act on it like Borderlines do.

Recycling vis a vis object permanence is probably related in the sense that the need to return to a familiar person is rooted in confirming the continued existence of that person through direct contact. My sense is that recycling is triggered when the borderline is in between relationships (which doesn't apparently last very long) and needs that presence of another to sooth his/her feelings of loneliness and abandonment.

[Achaya]

Another piece of this is that my ex told me that, previous to our getting together, she was attracted to partners who were overtly very needy and falling apart most of the time. My ex said she stayed with these people because the role of stabilizer "validates my existence." I didn't understand what she was saying because I tried to translate  this statement into my own codependent frame of reference. I learned later that what my ex really meant was that she doesn't have a clear sense of herself as a solid living entity. She takes on roles that require intensive involvement in people and things external to herself, and then she says "I am that." When the role ends she is back to "Who am I?"

I think part of our problem was that I am far more codependent than she is, and I am far more stable. I needed her desperately for love and intimacy, but I function on a high level out in the world. Since we broke up she is already involving herself with another relationship mess in her friendship circle that enables her to feel like a strong helper.

[dagwoodbowser]

This is an interesting topic. To get an even better perspective you should learn about Compartmentalization because I know that BPD's are very good with this but so are Co-Dependents. A big reason that Co's go back to abuse relationships is due to switching boxes in their mind and forgetting about the abuse.

After my first B/U I was all too eager to get another chance. But she went completly N/C. I didnt exist it seemed. She had found a replacement right away and after 3 months reached out to me and acted as if nothing wrong had happened between us. She actually told me about the conflicts with this replacement and her "realizations" about my better aspects.

Dont ask me why, but I actually allowed this to occur an additional 3 more times, she found replacements, I didnt exist for about 3-4 months then she would reach out. Having a much better understanding about her dysfunction and mine as a Co-Dependent I realize what a waste of time and emotion it all was. If you're truly wondering or hoping if she wil come back it's possible. You simply have to be prepared for the same outcomes.

[Sunfl0wer]

An ex BPD gf of mine just always wanted to feel like she left her man always wanting her.  She would try to reconnect or reach out, just to prove to herself that she was desirable to him... .then blow him off when she was done proving that to herself.  If he was with a new gf, she also wanted to prove to herself that he still wanted her, and would try to lure him in a bit to see how far she could get just to feel like she was worth more than the new gf... .it was an ego game to her.  She would set up scenarios... .then laugh... .like she was proud she had control still and was worth something.  If she thought that he left because he chose to, she would flip out thinking she left the status of things as him feeling he is better than her.

Throughout their r/s it was the genuine push/pull of her feeling abandoned and engulfment fears, but at the end, when she knew there wasn't much left... .it was about ensuring she was still wanted by him while being the one to leave him.  She wouldn't rest until she felt that she "fixed" her status this way... .it drove her nuts.

She was this way with me too. (We were not romantically involved, just regular gf friends). When I decided to stop being friends, it drove her nuts.  It was like she had to make sure no one she knew was ever thinking bad thoughts about her.  She would freak out and be paranoid thinking I was spreading rumors of her... .telling them my reality of her.  (I didn't do this) She always wanted to urgently know that others painted her white... .and would go out of her way to either find out, or ensure this.  If they did not, she would take steps to fix it.  Usually that meant buying something for them or some other thoughtful kindness to prove she is nice and to gain favor... .but if that didn't work, she'd paint them black to others who knew them both.  She ended up painting me black to our group of friends... .and likely still does all these years later... .as I happen to see FB post from others I am friends with.

[Bensonshays]

Dont ask me why, but I actually allowed this to occur an additional 3 more times, she found replacements, I didnt exist for about 3-4 months then she would reach out.

This has been my experience thus far, except for the recycle. I'm almost to the three-month mark. I realize she's trouble but I'm still pining for her and minimizing the red flags; I have some co-dependency issues so maybe that's due to compartmentalization. I ran into her parents in the grocery store today, and just seeing them stirred me up a lot. I'm in no condition to talk to this girl. 

Having a much better understanding about her dysfunction and mine as a Co-Dependent I realize what a waste of time and emotion it all was. If you're truly wondering or hoping if she wil come back it's possible. You simply have to be prepared for the same outcomes.

I am. I'm still questioning if she really is disordered, if it would be different a second time around blah blah blah. On and on it goes.

She would try to reconnect or reach out, just to prove to herself that she was desirable to him... .then blow him off when she was done proving that to herself.

She did this to me the week after the break up, text messages and flirting when she saw me. I don't think that behavior is unique to borderlines, though.

Much of what I have read regarding BPD and theories of object permanence argue that the clingy neediness and fear of abandonment that so many pwBPD exhibit are rooted in such a trauma and a weak grasp of object permanence.

So how does the former causes the latter?

[Dunder]

quote]

So how does the former causes the latter?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you clarify? How does lack of object permanence in borderlines cause recycling?

[Dunder]

An ex BPD gf of mine just always wanted to feel like she left her man always wanting her.  She would try to reconnect or reach out, just to prove to herself that she was desirable to him... .then blow him off when she was done proving that to herself.  If he was with a new gf, she also wanted to prove to herself that he still wanted her, and would try to lure him in a bit to see how far she could get just to feel like she was worth more than the new gf... .it was an ego game to her.  She would set up scenarios... .then laugh... .like she was proud she had control still and was worth something.  If she thought that he left because he chose to, she would flip out thinking she left the status of things as him feeling he is better than her.

Throughout their r/s it was the genuine push/pull of her feeling abandoned and engulfment fears, but at the end, when she knew there wasn't much left... .it was about ensuring she was still wanted by him while being the one to leave him.  She wouldn't rest until she felt that she "fixed" her status this way... .it drove her nuts.

That is really fascinating, Sunflower, thank you for posting. I suspect I've been on the other end of some of those power plays you are describing in your friend.

[Bensonshays]

quote]

So how does the former causes the latter?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you clarify? How does lack of object permanence in borderlines cause recycling?

Sorry. How does the childhood trauma lead to issues with object permanence?

If I understood your last post correctly, object permanence issues can lead to recycling because the borderline needs validation from someone who highly values them, to make sure that person is still around, and it usually occurs when they're between relationships.  

[Dunder]

quote]

So how does the former causes the latter?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you clarify? How does lack of object permanence in borderlines cause recycling?

Sorry. How does the childhood trauma lead to issues with object permanence?

If I understood your last post correctly, object permanence issues can lead to recycling because the borderline needs validation from someone who highly values them, to make sure that person is still around, and it usually occurs when they're between relationships.  

Benson, I've attached a link below that explains how acute trauma (a single event such as a car accident/death of a parent) during early childhood as well as complex trauma  (abuse, neglect, homelessness, poverty, violence) interfere with the normal emotional development of children. There are tons of articles on the subject. I am not a psychologist but I've been reading professional journal articles as well as stuff put out by only very reputable organizations such as the one the article below is linked to. Just a friendly warning: When you really dig deep into this stuff, it can get very sad. Reading about this stuff can take its toll.  Ok?

www.familyhomelessness.org/media/91.pdf

Here's an excerpt from this document describing the effects of complex trauma on child development. You can extrapolate why psychologists believe many cases of BPD are rooted in such events.

This natural process of attachment

may be eroded by complex trauma in

various ways:

• The caregiver may be the source of

the trauma.

• The availability, reliability, or

predictability of the caregiver

may be limited.

• The child may not learn to regulate

his emotions or calm himself down

when experiencing intense emotions.

• The child’s ability to learn by

exploring the world may take a back

seat to the child’s need for protection

and safety.

• The child begins to perceive the world

as dangerous, leading to a sense of

vulnerability and distrust of others.

• As the child has little sense of her

impact on others, her lack of control

over her life leads to a sense of

hopelessness and helplessness.

[runningup]

My experie3nce with object permanence is that with my BPDX she found a new source before cheating on me, so her new focus was the new BF, therefore for me, I was out of sight, out of mind, and adding to that the fact I was painted BLACK, there was no need to reminiess or feel loss towards me and the relationship as she had something new to attach her mind to.

I tried many things to try and get her to think of me in the first month apart, flowers, emails, txts, letters etc, all of which got tossed and ignored, and in reality made her feel more pushed towards her new BF, I was even accused of stalking her to her friends and family, at least her father could see the reality of what I was doing and that it wasnt actually stalking, it was genuine concern and genuine consideration on my part.

[Bensonshays]

Just a friendly warning: When you really dig deep into this stuff, it can get very sad. Reading about this stuff can take its toll.  Ok?

Thanks, I'm reading through this now. The girl I was dating lost her husband in a car accident a couple of years ago. Understanding how that experience has impacted her has been a big part of my post-relationship dissection. And you're right. It's very saddening just to consider what trauma like that can do to a person.

[OnceConfused]

I think, BPD develops during childhood more so than any adult events, like the loss of your xgf's husband.

Basically, the fear of abandonment will make BPD to begin to look for other sources of intimacy, or contacts, as the SO has to be away. Thus this is the concept of object constancy - the NON must be constantly around to affirm their connections and r.s. But as BPD pushes the non away, BPD again is faced with the fear of abandonment, and so BPD will try to pull the non back into again.

How does this different in a NORMAL R.S?

In a normal relation, as the partner is away, we don't have that anxiety that the partner will go away for good and he/she will come back. We see the fear of being alone arises inside us, but we can calm it down and trust that the partner will come back.  A normal person can control/regulate their emotions, while BPD once is triggered, can not control their emotion.

I think this is why we see BPD is so loveable when we are around, but then yet the moment we have to be elsewhere, the venom of BPD is triggered.

When I was with xBPDgf, I often thought this woman would make a mountain out of a mole hill, and then once I read about BPD, I can see how BPD can be triggered.

[Bensonshays]

I think, BPD develops during childhood more so than any adult events, like the loss of your xgf's husband.

Yeah, I don't have a definitive diagnosis. My therapist suspects a personality disorder based on her abandonment fears and the rapid shift in her feelings for me. The accident only exacerbated whatever issues may have developed in childhood.

Basically, the fear of abandonment will make BPD to begin to look for other sources of intimacy, or contacts, as the SO has to be around.

But their perceptions are skewed, right? I talked to this girl every day, saw her 2-3 times a week, too. That still wasn't enough to keep her abandonment fears in check. She still started to pull away,  which made me pull away. Snowball effect Took over from there, I think.

A normal person can control/regulate their emotions, while BPD once is triggered, can not control their emotion.

She couldn't. Four or five hours without contact would trigger complaints. And one whole day without contact? Oh, dear God, "you must not even like me." I had to put down her fears constantly. After every episode I was left wondering, "how could she possibly think I'm going to walk away?"