Kid's Boundaries

[martillo]

5 kids - ages now DSS28, DS22, DS19, DS15 and DD12 - high conflict uBPDh has very few boundaries (I know - shocking) and one of his (he thinks) cutesy behaviors is to "goose butt."  DD12 doesn't like it and has ask him to stop several times - usually angrily - and H has not stopped.  I told DD12 I would talk to him, so... .I did. 

I started by saying "I know you don't mean anything and it is just something you do, but DD12 doesn't like it.  She has asked you to stop.  As the most important man in her life, you need to be teaching her how she should be treated by other men in her life someday.  If you do not respect her boundaries, how do expect her to demand boundaries from other men in her life someday?"  He got mad and said "Fine, I will never touch her again - I won't hug her or kiss her either."  So now he is accusing me of saying he is being sexually inappropriate with DD12 and has told her he can't hug her or kiss her because I don't want him to.   

It is too late to fix this now, but what would have been a better way to say this?  I thought long and hard about what to say and how to say it and when to say it and should I even say it  - cause I had an idea it would not be received well - but I knew I needed to stand up for DD12. 

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[Notwendy]

You said it just fine- do not touch your daughter's butt

His reply was very typical of someone with emotionally arrested development. I wouldn't even respond to what he said, just let him simmer down. In fact, if he gooses her again, I would say it again and tell her it is OK to say it. Even if he does reply with a snarky response.

Don't fix it. You drew the line, he replied like a child. I would say nothing more.

Also, teach and allow your kids to speak up for themselves. ":)on't touch my butt Dad." This is very important. When a child has a parent who crosses their boundaries, they learn that it is OK for family and people they love to cross their boundaries. It is not OK!

Generally, the hugging and the kissing parents slows down around puberty. I don't think it should stop, but many 12 year old kids aren't as snuggly with mom and dad at 12 as they are at 6. Then comes those years where everything you do is embarrassing to them. It does hurt a parent's feelings when a kid says "ewww mom don't kiss me" or doesn't want to be hugged when we have been hugging and kissing them since they were babies. It hurts our feelings when kids want to spend more time with their peers than they do with us, but this is normal for their age.

It takes a strong intact ego to keep the perspective at that stage and know that it is normal for them to assert autonomy and we have to start - slowly- relating to them as young adults over time.

Your H's feelings may be hurt as his kids mature, and consider that he can project this hurt by saying snarky things to you. I think it is hard and sometimes sad for us to see kids begin to grow away from us, but it is the way it should be and we know it is what is good for them to be on the path to becoming independent adults.

Kids also need an adult with strong boundaries at this age, because, they push against ours as they gain autonomy, and we need to slowly pull the rules back. Eventually, they will go to bed later, drive the car, and do more than we let them, but if they have no rules or boundaries, it can be scary for them. Kids also go through a push pull like the pwBPD but in a healthy way- they have actually been doing it since birth but teen emotions/hormones can make this more dramatic.

This can be a stage where they outgrow the parent with BPD in some way and can be a threat to them. With black and white thinking they can be painted black/rejection or white/become enmeshed. The kid who asserts his/her boundaries could risk rejection from the pwBPD and that is scary for a child.

I recall being around 12 when I thought my mother was acting like a child. It was weird to me because I got the sense that I was older than she was in a way, but I still had to live under her rules. She had poor boundaries too. Naturally, I asserted mine, but she would get angry- like your H, and also tell my father, who would get angry too.  I learned that I was not allowed to defend my boundaries or my parents would reject me and also that what I had to do to be loved was to do everything to please that person and not defend my boundaries. I became afraid to assert myself in the presence of people I cared about because I feared rejection if I did.

With my own kids, I have tried hard to help them recognize their boundaries and speak up if something anyone does makes them uncomfortable- even if that is a parent. You have older kids so you have been through adolescence, but you can still help your older ones decide and defend their boundaries if they ask you for dating advice or other situations where they feel uncomfortable around someone.

[takingandsending]

martillo,

I think what you said was pretty reasonable. With BPD, it may have helped to understand the emotion behind it. How do you see his behaviour. Is it possible this is a bid for affection, attention with his children? If it were, perhaps empathizing with that might have helped you get your truth through without as much flight response on his part.

"I know how much you love playing with the kids and what a good father you are. I totally am with you. I love that, too. But we are coming to a point with D12 that she keeps saying that she doesn't like being goosed and she doesn't want to sit on my lap and be hugged all the time. I think we have to respect her boundaries, especially since she has said it more than once. What do you think?"

I have no idea if this works, but maybe reassuring him that you are a team would slow down the fight/flight nonsense.

[vortex of confusion]

I don't see anything wrong with what you said to him. He reacted poorly in my opinion.

Touching somebody else's butt when they don't like it is sexual harassment. I don't care if there is NO sexual intent whatsoever. Has your daughter been empowered to say NO? If you see him do this, tell him, in front of your daughter, ":)o NOT touch her butt. She says she doesn't like it." Period. The implications of him touching her when she doesn't like it are huge. A person has a right to set boundaries about his/her body. I have had discussions with my kids about the fact that they have a right to tell people if they don't want to be touched. This includes innocent touches such as how kids do the whole poking thing to annoy siblings. It sounds like dad is acting like an annoying little kid with the goosing thing. He is an adult. If somebody else were to see it or find out about it, it could quite easily cause quite a stir and potentially lead to being labeled a pedophile.

Take it out of the whole context of father/daughter. . .A grown man is going around touching a young girl's butt without her permission. Even if he did have permission. . .a grown man is playing grab azz with a 12 year old girl!