My MIL and her BPD traits

[polly87]

Hi there,

As some of you know, I have a mother with uBPD and also a MIL with BPD traits. These traits remind me of my own mother and they trigger me at times. I would like to get this stuff about my MIL off of my chest in the safe environment of this board.

I am reading Surviving a Borderline Parent and I’ll list the symptoms of BPD that my MIL exhibits (the symptoms are listed on pp. 12-21). I feel like a fraud doing this. I do not want to betray my partner or my inlaws, but it’s just that I want to be able to cope with her behaviour. Also, I am aware that there are cases much worse than this one. Besides all this, I am starting to wonder about my own BPD traits... .so I am not saying that my MIL is the only one with issues to work on. So far for the disclaimers

“1. Frantic attempts to prevent feelings of actual or perceived abandonment or rejection.”

My MIL wants to see my partner and me every week, not just for a cup of tea, but for pre-dinner drinks and an elaborate dinner. Besides that, she expects us to call her about two or three times a week. I have absolutely no idea whether this is normal. It feels like a lot of contact to me. If we do not call them or visit them, MIL becomes distant and seems hurt.

My BIL, who is in his late twenties, still stays over at his parents’ each weekend. Even after a night out, he goes to their place instead of going to his own apartment. 

My MIL has invited my partner and me to stay at their holiday home for two weekends this year and we cannot refuse this request (however much I’d like to). This means joint breakfast, joint coffee (note how they do not have lunch), a joint walk, joint beers, joint pre-dinner drinks (note how the beer is not called a pre-dinner drink), joint dinner (with wine), joint after-dinner wine and joint bowls of fruit, and the next day is just the same. This is going to drive me as crazy as it did last year when they had us stay there as well. (I have not been able to explain to my partner what is so bad about this... .not having control over eating and sleeping and whatnot, but maybe that’s another story.)

Years ago, my MIL was in therapy at a centre for personality disorders. Her T advised her to follow a full-time treatment that required her to stay there all the time for a couple of months. She refused this because she did not want to leave her sons, who were in primary school at the time. She did not continue treatment but instead has ignored her issues ever since.

“2. Patterns of relationships that are intense and unstable; repeated tendencies to shift between extremes of loving and hating another person.”

My MIL does not have any close friends. She is not friendly with any of her neighbours. She really dislikes her hairdresser and she always complains about her way of speaking, yet she refuses to go to another hairdresser. Her relationship with my BIL is intense though stable. Her relationship with my partner and me is intense and not always stable.

A mutual friend of mine and my BIL’s used to be seen as an angel by MIL, until he forgot to text BIL back about something important. Now he is a bad person according to her and every time he is mentioned in a conversation, she paints him black.

Another friend of mine was accused by MIL of having anorexia and vomiting after eating cookies. MIL was not even there so how can she know if my friend vomited? I am not sure if I should tell my friend, who is the parent of a pupil of a colleague of MIL.

“3. Difficulty describing the self, interests, or aspirations; frequent shifts in self-perception.”

My MIL once said to me: “I have not accomplished anything in my life.”

“4. Impulsive, often reckless, self-harming behaviours in areas such as substance abuse, binge eating, overspending, promiscuous sex, reckless driving, shoplifting.”

I am glad to observe little impulsive behaviour in my MIL. The only thing is her use of alcohol which drives me nuts at times because it reminds me of my uBPDm. I looked it up just now and she uses 6 units per occasion, twice a week (but nearly every day during holidays). It may not be extreme (or is it?), but it seems quite a lot to me. It is also the regularity with which she drinks that reminds me of my mother.

My MIL tends to eat too little. She finds herself fat though she is a UK size 8. I do not think this is healthy behaviour. (I am glad that she does not have any daughters who might have copied this view more easily than sons.)

“5. Repeated suicide attempts or threats, or self-injuring behaviours.”

My MIL suffers from a kind of rheumatic disease (I’m not sure what it is called and it does not matter anyway), but she still works 5 days a week despite barely being able to hold a pen. I think the use of alcohol might be self-injuring as well... ?

“6. Frequent mood swings and intense emotional reactions, irritability or anxiety of changing duration – anywhere from a few hours to a few days.”

Mood swings are definitely present. At its simplest, a mood swing involves MIL being very quiet and not inquiring after our jobs as usual, because of some vague reason we will never find out. At other times, MIL might be very quiet and refuse to tell what is the matter (such as illness or a hard day at work).

In the more challenging cases MIL insists on her will being done. When I was struggling with my memories last summer, she called me and started blaming me for not being a good partner and she said that I “must really change”. When I referred to this conversation a couple of weeks later, she did not even know what she had said to me. She must have been tuned out or something because of her anger.

Another time, when I had diarrhea, she insisted that I should unpack our moving boxes anyway and when I told her I could not, she insisted that she would come over and do it herself, because according to her, my partner (who was at work then) would like to have the boxes unpacked. When I refused to see her she was very angry with me and she remained cool to me for some time.

“7. Ongoing or frequent feelings of being hollow, empty or fake”.

I do not know much about this, apart from the fact that MIL takes antidepressants and as I’ve said above, she said “I have not accomplished anything in my life.”

“8. Either underexpressed or overexpressed feelings of anger, seen in frequent displays of temper, rage, recurrent physical fights, or extreme sarcasm and withdrawal.”

I am glad that there are no physical fights or sarcasm. My MIL can be very angry though, for instance when my partner and I had sent my BIL an email about his affair with a pupil (long story) and that he should be careful. My inlaws then got as angry as my mother used to get, which is *very very * angry. They screamed and swore to my partner on the phone refused to speak to speak to us after that. They never actually talked about it; they never do. They only buy us presents and act very nice and in that way, we are supposed to know that they are sorry.

“9. Brief extreme periods of mistrust, paranoia, or feelings of unreality (numbness, disconnection).”

The episode above is about this as well. My MIL was extremely paranoid and accused us of interfering and not meaning well with my BIL.

Well, I finally got it out. Do I feel better now? I am not sure. I can feel now how her behaviour upsets me. There are a number of qualities in my MIL that are not that bad, and I am certain I do not hate her, but I am not sure whether I like her or not. I hate the fact that she discouraged my partner from choosing the career that he dreamed of, which indirectly caused his severe depression and a number of stress-related illnesses over the years. But I am grateful that she has not physically abused her two sons. Also, I am grateful that my partner has been able to develop some great coping skills during his youth. I am also grateful that she fed her sons properly and let them play out of doors. Maybe my standards are a bit wonky though. I would like to hear any thoughts about this .

One of the things I am struggling with right now is her “invitation” for next Saturday. She sent us an email today insisting that we come over, because we will be on holiday the first week of April. However, we will also be seeing my paternal family next Sunday (a two hours’ drive from here) because it’s my grandmother’s birthday and I had promised myself not to spend the entire weekend seeing both families because it’s just too exhausting. It looks like I am going to have to break that promise and I really do not like that. I am only just learning to take good care of myself and along comes MIL with her commands. 

Another thing I am struggling with is the upcoming “holiday” with the inlaws in a couple of weeks. I would like to be able to say to her that it is just *too much contact*, both generally and during that weekend.

Thank you for reading this rant.

Any thoughts or similar stories are very welcome  

[clljhns]

  polly87,

I am certain I do not hate her, but I am not sure whether I like her or not.

It is wonderful that you can separate the behavior from the person. I also don't hate my parents, but do hold them accountable for their behaviors. I know that you said you are not sure how you feel about MIL, but I think that you are making strides in the right direction.

Another thing I am struggling with is the upcoming “holiday” with the inlaws in a couple of weeks. I would like to be able to say to her that it is just *too much contact*, both generally and during that weekend.

Would it be your responsibility to make this request? Could your partner do this? I think it is vitally important that you establish boundaries around the relationship and stick to them. Would your partner support this?

Glad you were able to look at MIL objectively and were able to express your thoughts and feelings about her.

Let us know how you are doing. 

[polly87]

Thanks for your reply clljhns.

Would it be your responsibility to make this request? Could your partner do this? I think it is vitally important that you establish boundaries around the relationship and stick to them. Would your partner support this?

I do not know if it is my responsibility but I do know that MIL would not care at all for my arguments . More seriously, though, in a more ideal situation my partner and I would discuss this with her, but she is not able to hold such direct conversations. She will never tell us how she feels but instead will be aloof or hurt, for example if she does not get her way. I tried to discuss boundaries with my partner and he agrees with me that it is a bit much to visit them every week. I am not sure how this is going to work out. I am glad you said that it’s important to establish boundaries because I am often inclined to bend to MIL’s requests to keep the peace.

We actually managed to say no to her for this weekend’s visit and I was *so* happy to be able to spend a nice and quiet day with my partner. (He commutes to work and has to work between 9 and 12 hours a day  so the weekdays’ evenings are just for eating, showering and sleeping.)

I do not think I will manage to escape the holiday with my inlaws, simply because my partner does not want another argument with them and he does not want to hurt them. I guess I will just have to go and practice a lot of praying  

Glad you were able to look at MIL objectively and were able to express your thoughts and feelings about her.

Thank you for validating my attempt at an objective view of my MIL. I do not want to whine about this, yet I feel like I should express my thoughts about her because her behaviour stresses me out at times.

I said in another post that my feelings toward my MIL were blocking my anger towards my uBPDm. I suppose this was true since I have been able to feel this anger the last couple of days. Sometimes I get all mixed up and I do not know if I hate the parts of uBPDm in me or my whole self or just her. I do not know what to do with this anger when it shows up. It happens especially when I feel unlovable.

Since I did not see or speak to MIL this weekend, I have not had any complicated feelings towards her for a couple of days. Now that I have had some time to consider my feelings, I have noticed that I find her phone calls stressful for a number of reasons. The most important thing in her life is work and people’s careers (the careers of my partner, my BIL, my MIL’s colleagues, her extended family, etc.). It makes me feel like the people themselves are not important; they become important only by their job. Their health is second to their job. Ill or not, they should go to work in the morning.

So stress factor number one is not being important or lovable by default: conditional love . Stress factor number two is physical needs being ignored. These two things remind me very strongly of my uBPD mother. 

There are some more factors, but I find this too distressing to work out in one go, so I will leave off here for the moment ... .

[clljhns]

  polly87,

So stress factor number one is not being important or lovable by default: conditional love barfy. Stress factor number two is physical needs being ignored. These two things remind me very strongly of my uBPD mother

You are making great progress here! You have been able to identify some behaviors of MIL that are distressing to you, so this is big step forward!

There are some more factors, but I find this too distressing to work out in one go,

No need to do all the work at once! You are doing fine! I am glad to hear that you and partner are on the same page about your need to not see MIL every week. This is certainly validating of your needs.

What else are you doing for yourself while working out all of the stressors related to MIL?

All the best. 

[polly87]

Thanks clljhns

Yesterday, after my partner spoke to his mother on the phone, I was able to name another behaviour of MIL that I find distressing. My partner had promised to help his brother by writing some music he needed for a work project and my partner had not had time to do so the past week. Turns out that BIL needed the music urgently and instead of asking my partner, he complained about it to MIL. My conditioned mind (which I'm trying hard to uncondition, or whatchamaycallit) picks up on the fact that MIL does not encourage BIL to ask my partner about it. She paints my partner black and BIL white.

Moreover she encourages BIL to accept yet another side project even though he has an infection that is more or less the result of his not allowing himself enough rest (or being allowed by MIL, for that matter). She said to my partner about BIL: "he is very well able to start another project". And I find myself wondering why his health does not come first and why she has to determine whether he should accept the project.

Sorry that I am ranting again. It gives me the chills whenever MIL is airing her "Work is God" view again and it also gives me the chills that she paints one son of her black and the other white.

Meanwhile I am giving this stuff quite some thought and I feel like I've made some progress, as my partner said to me yesterday that I was now able to express the distress I feel at contact moments with MIL. I dreamt this night that my inlaws were incredibly poor, which I suppose is related to inner poverty... .They are hardly ever cheerful or happy. I also dreamt that my uBPD mother was near death by starvation, which stood in this dream for the fact that I'm trying to kick her negative voice out of my mind.

I'm going on holiday tomorrow  and I'll have limited internet access in the cabin in the woods where we'll be staying. I'm looking forward to seeing my native area again - it's so beautiful. I'll speak to you again in 10 days

Bye for now 

[polly87]

Hi again,

I’m sorry it took me so long to post again. I had a lovely holiday and then happenings at work took up a lot of my time and energy.

First of all I am quite relieved to say that the holiday with the inlaws has been cancelled due to the rainy weather next weekend.

Today I saw my T again after she had been ill for two months. Because of this long gap between sessions, she could not do an EMDR session so we just talked, which was good. She seemed a lot more encouraging than she used to be, with only one “but why would you do that at all” when I told about failing coping mechanisms. I managed to discuss some of my issues related to my MIL with her.

T asked me why I would not be able to discuss with my MIL how I feel about having breakfast or lunch when I’m hungry instead of waiting for them. I tried to explain how indirect and uncommunicative my inlaws are but I do not think I got the point across properly. It *is* hard to explain, even here. The way my MIL does not ever seem to have physical needs reminds me of my mother. I’d feel ashamed to admit I want to eat. I think it is relevant to note here that my mother suffered from anorexia nervosa during puberty and adolescence and during my youth, she would go on a diet every couple of months. I always thought this was ridiculous because she was skinny enough (I don’t think the exact size is relevant here and it would only trigger people). Likewise, my MIL, who wears the same size as my mother, finds herself “ too fat”. Needless to say this is not a healthy body image - I’m not saying that my body image is healthy, but I try at least not to bother people who are bigger than me with saying that *I* am fat when discussing meal sizes, as if the other person – who would be beyond fat then –  would have to eat a smaller amount than they do. I am not sure if this makes sense.

Anyhow, my reaction to my MIL’s body image and her attitude to food shows that there are some unresolved issues in my mind as to eating and self-image. I tend to think I have a moderately good body image because I do not want to change much about my weight, but apparently I find it hard to deal with other people’s views on their bodies, especially if they resemble my mother’s views.

Last week, I visited my dad and stepmom, taking my aunt there as well (she lives on the way there so I could give her a lift). I finally told my dad and stepmom that I was abused as a kid. Their reaction was very comforting and encouraging. They were glad I had told them, even though the news made them very sad and angry but they remained calm. I had never seen my dad that upset though. My stepmom took me outside for some air and told me she was proud of me beyond words to have come such a long way. She said that she could now give me the love that I deserved from a mother. It moved me to tears. When I got triggered a couple of days after that, I thought of her reaction and it helped me so much. I am very grateful for having my paternal family in my life.

[Change2014]

Reading your post was really interesting for me bc though I don't think my MIL has BPD, I find her very triggering. You pointed out your MIL's attitude about work being number one and not acknowledging the importance of health. Oh my gosh, I have the same issues. I feel very evaluated by my MIL regarding work. Ever since I took time off to start a family she has made it known in her own way that I should be working. Then when I started working part time she refused to really acknowledge it. Very devaluing. And health... .don't even get me started. Whenever I am sick I am made to feel like I should power thru or she refuses to acknowledge it. I got food poisoning at their house and was puking my guts out and she told my husband that she told my husband she was glad I felt comfortable enough there to take care of myself. I felt this was a bit tongue in cheek. I felt like saying lady I have no choice, you poisoned me. Lol. Anyway I wonder how much of these things are generational.  Anyway, I really commend you for establishing boundaries. It felt very awkward for me doing so myself, but my only other option was to get steamrolled and I couldn't put up with that.

[polly87]

Hi again,

It has been a while since I have been on the forum, mainly because my dad was hospitalised with a bad case of pneumonia. He is doing better now, and because of that I now feel safe enough again to deal with old memories and all the related stuff again.

Change2014, thanks for your reply. I am glad you managed to establish boundaries. I can relate to your experiences of not being appreciated when your MIL finds you do not work enough. It can be quite hard to stick to your own truth, which is the fact that 1) you want to work part-time so you work part-time 2) if you are ill you are ill. It is good to remind oneself of one's own truths often, because those with BPD traits tend to make us forget that their truths are not necessarily good for us.

Your story about food poisoning also reminds me of my MIL... .She really likes to have home-made French fries. When I eat French fries, I get diarrhea (my body does not like extremely greasy food). When I say to my MIL I do not want to eat French fries because they give me diarrhea, she says she wants us to come over and have French fries anyway. This has been a topic of debate for over a year now.

Apart from that, my MIL still does not understand how busy I am with my recovery and that I cannot work full-time because of that. She of course has a number of issues herself, but she chooses to ignore them and to work her butt off instead, only to make the occasional triggering remark at me or my partner and those remarks are clearly related to her persisting issues.

Yesterday, MIL phoned my partner while he was still at work (I always wonder why she thinks he is available to her at all times yet work is all-important). She asked if we were coming over to their home for dinner next weekend. My partner said he did not know yet because we might visit my uncle who will be in hospital then for an operation. She then said to him: “well, why would you visit Polly’s uncle at all, it’s not even her FOO”. My partner, silently fuming with anger (he told me afterwards), asked what she meant and she corrected herself by saying something like: “It’s your life, you should do what you want, I just want you to have a nice weekend”.

When my partner told me this, the first part of what MIL had said made me really really angry. Who is she to determine how important my uncle is? Who is she to determine what we should do with our weekend? My partner tried to calm me by stressing the second part of what she had said and saying that this was what counted. I misunderstood him and thought that he meant that I should forget that MIL had said that my uncle was not important. I thought he did not mind what she had said at first. This made me even more angry.

Things then got out of hand, I am sad to say. I wanted to be alone with my anger. I shouted at him and slammed the door, after which he would not leave me alone because he was afraid I would harm myself. I was ashamed of myself and wanted to be alone the more, which he would not allow. I did not understand that he wanted to protect me from myself. Shame dominated over love.

Afterwards, we talked about what had happened and I realised how afraid I had been again that he would leave me and how afraid I had been that he would not side with me. I was and am afraid of these BPD ways of thinking, which are all too familiar to those on this board. I found I could not forgive myself for having copied these ways of thinking from my uBPD mother.

This morning, I read about anger and forgiveness in Surviving a Borderline Parent and there was a story about someone who had reached forgiveness by a lot of chanting. I am going to try chanting and (more) praying to obtain a more forgiving view of myself and of my mother, though I am not sure if sexual abuse is matter for forgiveness.

As always, any thoughts from readers are very welcome

[polly87]

So I just got triggered, hurt myself, went downstairs and found the laptop still on standby (the last being quite fortunate ). Another phone call between my partner and MIL tonight. She told us she’d been suffering from severe back pain the past three weeks. We spoke to her about ten times I guess since it started and we often asked if there was anything wrong because she seemed distant again, but she said no each time, as she always does when there is something the matter.

The fact that she often wants to hide the truth when asked what’s wrong upsets the heck out of me for some reason. I wonder why I want people to tell me the truth. I try to be honest to people, so do I find them hypocrites when they are not honest to me? Does MIL’s reluctance to tell the truth remind me of my mother who would often lie to me and distort the truth?

I have no idea why I am triggered so easily again this week. I hope it will pass when I find out the reason beneath it.

On top of this, a surviving mechanism from the past makes me feel guilty: my partner is coming down with an infection and somehow I feel like I am to blame for his illness as I feel I have taken up too much of his energy, resulting in him being more vulnerable physically. I mentally know this does not resemble correct reasoning, though the traumatised parts of myself keep screaming that Polly is indeed responsible for other people’s wellbeing. It is all I can do to remind myself of the fact that I am not my mother and I am not a mean person and I do not wish loved ones ill.

This guilt makes it hard for me to take care of myself (for instance, to eat or sleep). I am going to pray and hope it will pass soon.

Thanks for reading this. Thanks for making me feel I am not alone in this. It means a lot to me.

[polly87]

Hi again.

I hope people are not going to see me as moaning and complaining about little things. I feel a bit embarrassed that my MIL’s behaviour is so distressing to me.

Last week I had a helpful T session. I told my T about how MIL told us two weeks ago to come over the next Saturday, without asking whether we would actually have the time and/or whether we would like to come. When  my partner suggested that we were not sure about our engagements that weekend, she pushed and pushed until he agreed to meet on that Saturday. I was so taken aback that I did not say anything. I was afraid that it would lead to a heated discussion (like it has often done in past cases).

I found MIL’s way of ‘inviting’ us rather rude and it made me angry too. I did not show these emotions, though, because I thought  she would not understand. Instead, I called my dad the next day and asked whether he would like to see me next Saturday and when he said yes, I called off MIL and let her know that my partner would visit on his own.

T said that MIL’s behaviour was coercing and uncommunicative. She suggested to open things up a bit more next time by saying things like “I am not sure whether we have time next weekend” or “we would really like to see you, but we have to take a look at our own planning before we agree to visit you next Saturday”. I hope such examples will help others on this board who are also struggling with a demanding person.

I discussed these matters with my partner yesterday. To my surprise he said that I should have said that I did not know whether Saturday would suit me and in effect it was kind of like my own fault that I had not said anything. I had no idea that it was possible to discuss my availability with MIL while she was so demanding, or even that she would take no for an answer.

What is more, my partner said that when MIL invited us last year to join my inlaws at their holiday home for a weekend, I should have said that I did not know whether I would like to come instead of remaining silent. I could not possibly have said anything at that moment though – I felt like I had just been hit with a brick.

These issues are rather confusing to me. If I understand correctly, I am partly to blame for MIL forcing us to come over in these cases by not saying anything, right? In Dutch, we have a saying, “to remain silent is to agree”... .I suppose this is just a painful example and apparently I have to work on asserting my needs. The difficult part of this is asserting my needs, even when I do not feel safe at all: when there is the risk of driving right into trouble lasting for weeks and affecting my partner as well.

Meanwhile I am trying to deal with the bunch of emotions that these issues evoke by praying. It is helpful to consider the possibility of forgiving my uBPD mother for certain deeds. This lessens the intensity of the guilt I often feel.

Thanks for reading this.

[Kwamina]

And thank you for sharing polly! When I read your post, a passage from one of our workshops came to mind:

After wandering in the FOG for a longer time we have lost the natural instincts and ability to ask for something. Fear is controlling our thinking. Our partner is super sensitive and tends to over-react. We get ever more careful, stopping to ask for things needed in our or our relationship's interest. Resentment breeds. Resentment is sensed. Communication grinds to a halt. How do we get back to normal? A big step is start asking again for what is needed and this is where D.E.A.R.M.A.N can help us.

... .

D.E.A.R.M.A.N. is used when you have an objective, you want something specific, such as to get more sleep, to have help with the chores, to affect a change or to say NO to a request. You want the other person to come away feeling good about you and not full of resentment. This preserves the relationship. You also want to protect or even enhance your self respect.

Are you familiar with the D.E.A.R.M.A.N. technique? The acronym stands for: Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce, Mindfully (keep your focus), Appear (confident) and Negotiate. If you're interested in reading more, here's the link to the workshop: COMMUNICATION: D.E.A.R.M.A.N. technique

Hi again,

It has been a while since I have been on the forum, mainly because my dad was hospitalised with a bad case of pneumonia. He is doing better now, and because of that I now feel safe enough again to deal with old memories and all the related stuff again.

I am glad to see you back here. Sorry to hear though that your dad was hospitalized, fortunately he was already doing better when you posted this. How is he doing now?

Shame dominated over love.

Afterwards, we talked about what had happened and I realised how afraid I had been again that he would leave me and how afraid I had been that he would not side with me. I was and am afraid of these BPD ways of thinking, which are all too familiar to those on this board.

This sounds like the inner critic at work, seeking out every chance to shame you and drown out the love.

It seems like you've identified certain triggers. That actually already is a step forward being able to recognize these things

I found I could not forgive myself for having copied these ways of thinking from my uBPD mother.

Can you see how the inner critic is also at work here? First the critic was shaming you and drowning out the love. Now you've been able to recognize some areas that you might need to work on which by itself is already progress and then the inner critic starts shaming you again for having copied these ways of thinking. The inner critic conveniently leaves out a very significant aspect though: You were just a child and subsequently an adult that came out of that hurt child. You were powerless as a child over your abuser's actions which makes your mother responsible for them. You did the best you could as a child with what you knew to get through these difficult times and the young child that you were deserves a lot of credit for having been able to survive. The adult you are now deserves a lot of compassion for having been through so much and doesn't deserve to be shamed when she isn't behaving 'perfectly'.

Perfection is unattainable any way and the inner critic knows this very well so could always use 'imperfection' to try and shame you. You are making progress and the inner critic sees that as a threat to the hold on you.

On top of this, a surviving mechanism from the past makes me feel guilty: my partner is coming down with an infection and somehow I feel like I am to blame for his illness as I feel I have taken up too much of his energy, resulting in him being more vulnerable physically. I mentally know this does not resemble correct reasoning, though the traumatised parts of myself keep screaming that Polly is indeed responsible for other people’s wellbeing. It is all I can do to remind myself of the fact that I am not my mother and I am not a mean person and I do not wish loved ones ill.

What you say here is very significant. I think many children of BPD parents fear that they'll end up becoming just like their parents, especially when you identify certain (learned) BPD-like behaviors in yourself. Would you say that this is a fear you have too? Do you fear that you are just like your mother?

It seems like you've internalized a negative message or false belief about yourself that you are a mean person who wishes ill on other people. Was this something your mother said to you or accused you of? Was this perhaps also a message that she conveyed to you non-verbally through her actions towards you?

[polly87]

Hi Kwamina and thanks a lot for your elaborate reply. I read about the DEARMAN technique some time ago but it did not seem relevant then – it does now.

If I take your and my T’s information all together, an optimistic version of a future conversation with my MIL could look something like this (I’ll also post this in the workshop thread):

MIL: How nice that you are here today. I would also really like to see you guys next weekend. I know that you have no official appointments; will you come over next Sunday at five o’clock?

My response:

D –I understand you would really like to see us and that you would like to finish the planning for next week.

E – It makes me feel like a little kid when you determine how often we meet. Even though meeting us is fun time for you, it is not like that for me. I do not like watching you get tipsy. I would like to relax on my own during the weekend. (There is no way that I am going to be able to say any of

this aloud... .I will have to think of other words to say this.)

A – I would like to have some more time before I decide about our planning next weekend.

R – Of course I would also like to see you again soon. If I have some time to think about whether there are any tasks we need to do next weekend, we can meet when I actually have the time and we can stay with you the longer.

M – Mindfulness: I will try to focus on what I want: being able to decide for myself whether or not to visit my inlaws. Empowerment. Living my own life.

A – Appear confident: I will try to make eye contact and act as if I do this every day

N – I do not have any plans yet for the weekend after the next one, so if you want to pick a date right now, we could always settle on a date about two weeks ahead.

I am afraid it will take a lot of time and effort before I will manage to actually say this aloud to her.

Sorry to hear though that your dad was hospitalized, fortunately he was already doing better when you posted this. How is he doing now?

Thanks for asking. My dad is the same as he was a couple of weeks ago. He can hardly sleep because of the pain. His situation is stable though and I am grateful for that. He is having a hard time trying to quit smoking (he has switched to the e-smoker - which unfortunately, like cigarettes, contains harmful nicotine.)

I found I could not forgive myself for having copied these ways of thinking from my uBPD mother

Can you see how the inner critic is also at work here? First the critic was shaming you and drowning out the love. Now you've been able to recognize some areas that you might need to work on which by itself is already progress and then the inner critic starts shaming you again for having copied these ways of thinking. The inner critic conveniently leaves out a very significant aspect though: You were just a child and subsequently an adult that came out of that hurt child. You were powerless as a child over your abuser's actions which makes your mother responsible for them. You did the best you could as a child with what you knew to get through these difficult times and the young child that you were deserves a lot of credit for having been able to survive. The adult you are now deserves a lot of compassion for having been through so much and doesn't deserve to be shamed when she isn't behaving 'perfectly'.

Perfection is unattainable any way and the inner critic knows this very well so could always use 'imperfection' to try and shame you. You are making progress and the inner critic sees that as a threat to the hold on you.

Now that you explain, I can see how my inner critic was at work there. I am still having trouble forgiving myself for not being ‘perfect’. Thank you for encouraging me. It is true that when I seem to make progress, there is some part of myself that is afraid to behave well: I am afraid to love myself, so that when I get something right I am afraid to admit it. I would rather ignore the good deed and cling to the old image of myself. I wonder if it has anything to do with fearing NPD traits? Anyhow, I have found out that one cannot survive without a certain measure of self-love, so I will just have to try don’t I

It is indeed one of my biggest fears to be like my mother. My T asked me to write a fictional letter to her as an exercise and one of the parts that stood out was: “I see aspects of your personality in mine. I hate them as much in myself as I hate them in you. I am trying to make peace with my fear of these aspects in me.”

It seems like you've internalized a negative message or false belief about yourself that you are a mean person who wishes ill on other people. Was this something your mother said to you or accused you of? Was this perhaps also a message that she conveyed to you non-verbally through her actions towards you?

You hit the nail on the head Kwamina. It never occurred to me to consider whether my mother planted this idea in my head. But yes, she accused me of being mean to her. She accused me of not allowing her to move west (where there were and are more career opportunities). But I never even mentioned it... .what is more, when she got married the second time (when I was about 13) she did not speak a word to me about her and my stepdad’s plans to move to another place. She also accused me of making her give things up for me, wisely not specifying “things”. She said this so often though that I half started to believe it, because everyone can think of some things that parents need to give up when they have children.

She also conveyed non-verbal messages of the same kind. During the first couple of months of my relationship with my partner, she refused to eat when I was not at home. Maybe she was not able to eat, but part of it was also her trying to show me that I was ‘neglecting’ her. When I was a kid, she tried to make me feel guilty with remarks such as “if only you would finish your meal every night, I would be able to enjoy two kinds of vegetables instead of buying just one kind and still waste such a lot of food”. However I distinctly remember her cooking only one small potato in the microwave each night, adding a small piece of meat and some canned vegetables. That is of course not enough food for one kid and one adult. Now I understand that I did not feel safe enough to eat in her presence.

Thanks for reading

[Kwamina]

I am afraid it will take a lot of time and effort before I will manage to actually say this aloud to her.

What might help is to keep in mind the following parts from the workshop about D.E.A.R.M.A.N.:

The key to acquire the skill for DEARMAN lies NOT in following the letters. It lies in learning the underlying skills and practicing them well enough to then being able to steer a conversation through DEARMAN. When looking at DEARMAN it is clear that we are to express needs for change.

... .

Working on SET, Assertiveness, Boundaries and Mindfulness can be done independently and will give immediate payback. The better we get at them the more mental energy we have to successfully steer a complex interaction.

**************************************************************************

I am afraid to love myself, so that when I get something right I am afraid to admit it. I would rather ignore the good deed and cling to the old image of myself. I wonder if it has anything to do with fearing NPD traits? Anyhow, I have found out that one cannot survive without a certain measure of self-love, so I will just have to try don’t I

I hope you do try! Perhaps it can help to make a costs/benefits analysis here. What are the benefits of not loving yourself and holding on to your old self-image and what are the costs? And what do you think would be the benefits and costs of loving and embracing yourself?

It is indeed one of my biggest fears to be like my mother. My T asked me to write a fictional letter to her as an exercise and one of the parts that stood out was: “I see aspects of your personality in mine. I hate them as much in myself as I hate them in you. I am trying to make peace with my fear of these aspects in me.”

I understand this fear, I've struggled with it myself and I think many other members have too. What might help you is to consider that you are applying a mental filter here and only looking at the aspects of yourself that you don't like or remind you of your mother. Can you also see other more positive traits in yourself that don't remind you of your mother? Like the fact that acknowledging the issues you have and doing this hard work of self-reflection and trying to heal yourself, sets you apart from your mother

[polly87]

Thank you for your reply Kwamina. I think DEARMAN might be a bit too difficult for now but I will keep it in mind for the future!

The cost-benefit analysis of (not) loving myself is quite simple. If I do not love myself, I will harm myself and this will ruin my relationship with my partner. I love him more than anything in the world so I will keep on trying to love myself

Thinking of aspects in which I am not like my mother, it comes to mind that I do not pick random fights with people, that I do not expose children to nude photography, that I do not get physical during a discussion, that I do not plan to murder anyone, that I do not leave my partner during tough times, that I do not buy designer clothes with my grocery money, that I do not expect my parents to pay the garage bill, that I am not addicted to alcohol, that I do not mess up my colleagues’ marriages, that I do not become friends with people because I want to influence their life decisions, and that I do not hit, scream at or rape children.

I think this list will be very useful to remind myself that I am not like my mother in many ways. I will save this and keep it at hand.

The other day, some upsetting things happened when my partner and I were at his parents’ place. I had been ill all week and was suffering from intense pain (so bad that at times I could not even sit or lie still, despite heavy doses of painkillers). On Friday evening, my partner called his parents to say that we might not be able to meet them on Saturday because I was ill. MIL said that we might as well come over, because we “had to have dinner anyway”. I was too ill to protest. Saturday morning I was feeling better and felt obliged to go. About an hour after we got there, the pain started getting way worse again. But here’s the thing. MIL was suffering from lower back pain and she wanted to get credits for not talking about being in pain. However, if you do not talk about it, how can we know that you want credits? So she was annoyed with me for saying that I was in pain and showing it (meaning not complaining but not being able to sit up straight).

1) When she started cooking dinner, I asked her politely to boil my egg hard instead of soft (she has a way of boiling eggs so that even the white part is still soft! Eww) and she said with a straight face: “Do you want it boiled until it is blue?”

I said: “Excuse me?”

She repeated: “Do you want it boiled until it is blue?”

I mumbled something like: “just hard-boiled please, thanks”, thinking what the... .!

2) A couple of minutes later I went to the kitchen for some water to take more painkillers. She said: “Why are you taking still more painkillers? You took another kind of painkillers an hour ago. Those work very well so it is not possible that you are in pain now.”

3) When we were all seated at the table, she peeled one of the soft-boiled eggs, and its shell did not come off properly. Those eggs are from my native area and she used this fact for another mean remark: “see that? Not everything from A. is as wonderful as you think!”

I did not know what to say so I kept quiet.

4) During dinner the pain got even worse and I was not able to eat. When everyone except me had finished, she said: “why don’t you finish your plate? Aren’t you a big girl?”

I still did not know what to say so I mumbled something about not being able to eat because of the pain.

During the entire evening, my inlaws and BIL did not once ask if I was okay or if I wanted to lay down or something. It just makes me wonder what the heck is going on in their minds. Apparently MIL is looking for a victim, someone weaker than her.

Incidentally, when my partner asked his mother how her back was doing, she did not speak a word! It was such an awkward silence. I could not help but say to him: "apparently your mum does not want to talk about it".

In the DEARMAN workshop, an0ught said to me about MIL: “she is a bully”, and those words keep ringing in my head now. Yes, she is a bully. I always thought she was an okayish woman with a rather long instruction manual but these mean remarks make me think she is actually like a waif/witch, with the witch coming out when other people are weak or ill.

I had a good conversation with my partner about all this yesterday and (in a nutshell) he told me about how she would ignore him or say he was mistaken when he was ill himself, even when he was in his late twenties. He does not think she has BPD though, because she has not abused drugs and she has not had many partners in her life. However she is mildly addicted to alcohol (even if she uses only 2 or 3 days a week, she cannot do without it). I do not think it is relevant to get a diagnosis in this case (she refuses all treatment anyway), but her behaviour certainly shows BPD traits and it seems as if those traits are getting worse when the other person is weaker.

Apparently, illness is a trigger for MIL. It brings out the witch in her. My question now is if I can respond appropriately to such remarks without causing a fight. Is it possible to say something like “what you just said upsets me, will you please not make fun of me when I am in pain”? Does anyone have any experience with this? I am afraid that if I speak up, all hell will break loose and she will treat us like garbage for the next weeks.

One thing that I have learned this weekend is that I will not interact with MIL in *any* way anymore when I am ill or just getting better from an illness.

She wanted to know what date my appointment is at the hospital for examination of the affected organs and I refused to tell her. I will not allow her to come with me like last time, after which she told my partner: “she behaved really well at the second examination: she did not even shriek with pain like she did at the first one”.

Man, I wish we had never decided to move to the town where my inlaws also live. I hope that we will be able to create some physical distance someday. In the meantime, I hope I can create some adequate responses to this bullying.

All help is of course very welcome

[Kwamina]

Hi again polly, the parrot is back!

Thinking of aspects in which I am not like my mother, it comes to mind that I do not pick random fights with people, that I do not expose children to nude photography, that I do not get physical during a discussion, that I do not plan to murder anyone, that I do not leave my partner during tough times, that I do not buy designer clothes with my grocery money, that I do not expect my parents to pay the garage bill, that I am not addicted to alcohol, that I do not mess up my colleagues’ marriages, that I do not become friends with people because I want to influence their life decisions, and that I do not hit, scream at or rape children.

I think this list will be very useful to remind myself that I am not like my mother in many ways. I will save this and keep it at hand.

I'd say these are definitely very significant differences between you and your mom

I am sorry to hear you've been ill though. How are you feeling now?

On Friday evening, my partner called his parents to say that we might not be able to meet them on Saturday because I was ill. MIL said that we might as well come over, because we “had to have dinner anyway”.

Got nothing to say here just  

In the DEARMAN workshop, an0ught said to me about MIL: “she is a bully”, and those words keep ringing in my head now. Yes, she is a bully. I always thought she was an okayish woman with a rather long instruction manual but these mean remarks make me think she is actually like a waif/witch, with the witch coming out when other people are weak or ill.

Well an0ught is very wise and has made some great workshops here. It's an unfortunate reality but your MIL does seem to be a bully. I find her remarks to you very unpleasant, especially considering you were ill.

He does not think she has BPD though, because she has not abused drugs and she has not had many partners in her life.

I don't know if your MIL has BPD either, however it is clear that she has some very unpleasant traits as you point out yourself. We can't diagnose people here, but what I can say is that definitely not all people with BPD abuse drugs and/or have many partners. BPD can manifest itself in many different ways.

One thing that I have learned this weekend is that I will not interact with MIL in *any* way anymore when I am ill or just getting better from an illness.

This is very wise! We have a workshop here about mindfulness and staying in WiseMind and one thing I've also experienced is that staying in WiseMind is very difficult when you're ill, tired, hungry etc.

I think DEARMAN might be a bit too difficult for now but I will keep it in mind for the future!

... .

My question now is if I can respond appropriately to such remarks without causing a fight. Is it possible to say something like “what you just said upsets me, will you please not make fun of me when I am in pain”? Does anyone have any experience with this? I am afraid that if I speak up, all hell will break loose and she will treat us like garbage for the next weeks.

DEARMAN can seem overwhelming at first. What might help is to start with the underlying techniques. Being able to assert yourself requires the ability to set and enforce boundaries. Is this something you feel comfortable with doing? We have some resources about boundaries, perhaps you've already seen, but if not, here are the links:

Getting Our Values and Boundaries in Order

BOUNDARIES: Examples of boundaries

The S.E.T. technique can also help you in the situations with your MIL. SET helps you minimize the likelihood of (further) conflict or drama, while maximizing the likelihood of you getting through to her. S.E.T. can also help you remain calm yourself and keep you focused on your end-goal (speaking your truth):

S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

The S.E.T. communication pattern was developed by Jerold J. Kreisman, MD and Hal Straus for communication with a person with BPD (pwBPD). It consists of a 3 step sequence where first Support is signaled, then Empathy is demonstrated and in a third step Truth is offered.

Few tools are easier to learn as S.E.T. and are as effective in getting across to a pwBPD. Few tools are as universal in everyday life with anyone. It is sort of an walking-on-eggshell antidote.

I hope this is of some help to you.

Take care

[polly87]

Hi again Kwamina and thanks so much for your help!

I am feeling better now, thanks for asking. Next week I have to go to hospital for some examinations so that they will be able to eliminate the cause of the illness.

Well an0ught is very wise and has made some great workshops here. It's an unfortunate reality but your MIL does seem to be a bully. I find her remarks to you very unpleasant, especially considering you were ill.

Now that I see her behaviour is bullying, I understand why I am often upset after speaking to her or visiting her. Having both you and an0ught validate my experience is very helpful. I can see her in a different light now: it is not that I see her as a negative presence but rather I can forgive myself for feeling hurt and upset because of her attitude towards me. I can now say to myself: “she really is nasty at times and I am allowed to feel angry”. This makes it slightly easier to deal with the complicated situations that tend to arise.

I have studied the threads about boundaries and given the topic some thought. Thanks to that, I was able to formulate a boundary before visiting my inlaws last weekend. I told my partner about it and he said it made sense to him.

Value: I will not let others decide about my planning

Boundary: When others tell me what to do and when to do it, instead of asking.

Action: If MIL demands that I give BIL a 200 km ride (or that we come over on day X, or ... .), I will say I do not want to do so and if that does not help, I will go home immediately.

I could not test my boundary in real life because we did not manage to discuss our plans that afternoon – MIL was way too busy talking to my cousin in law, who was also visiting my inlaws. When my partner spoke to MIL later that evening (I was not present then), something unexpected happened: she became angry with BIL! This was the first time in 3 years that BIL could do something wrong. She tried to tell him what to do (not to go to that concert on the other side of the country) and she asked my partner and FIL to take her side in the discussion. My partner refused to do so and went home. (It may be interesting to know that BIL has given in to her demands and will not go to the concert – he is deeply enmeshed with her.)

The thread on SET seems very useful. My example would look like this:

MIL: I want you to visit us at day X.

S: I am willing to pick a date to visit you.

E: You want to spend a lot of time with us because you want to feel close to us. You would like to see us every weekend.

T: I do not have the time and energy to see parents, inlaws or friends every weekend. I need some time to be on my own, otherwise I do not get enough rest.

This seems easier to do than DEARMAN - I do not think I am ready to bring up the topic in a conversation with her, but responding to a remark with SET seems easier.

I will post my example in the SET thread as well when I have more time. I have to leave off here for now – I will be back here soon though !