Just Kidding statements

[ColdEthyl]

I'm trying to breakdown exactly where the logic goes wrong for pwBPD when they say something hurtful then try to take it back with a "Just kididing!" statement.

IE Yesterday my daughter got an anime cosplay robe in the mail she bought with her allowance. When I showed my H, he said "Wow that's really nice! She's never going to wear that Link costume again now that she has this!" 

... .the Link costume is what I worked hard on for her birthday. To me, it was like he was saying "pffft... .she can throw THAT POS away now!" But, knowing what I know... .I asked him what he meant. He then said he was kidding... .backslide... .then said he just meant kids grow out of things quickly when I disagreed with his view.(The costume she got just now is a thing she's loved for over a year, and last Christmas had gotten some of the clothing)

These statements are some of the most infuriating because they always seem to come out of left field... .like at any minute he's just going to say something snotty for no particular reason.

Do you guys think it's his intent to sound like an ass? Or just his general charm?

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[vortex of confusion]

Take a step back. . .

If he had said this about something that you hadn't made, do you think that you would have had the same reaction?

It is difficult to know whether or not his intent was to sound like an azz. I have 4 kids and I will quite frequently make remarks to my husband like, "I wonder how long it is before she forgets about <fill in the blank>".

I know that my kids grow out of things quickly. They used to be into cartoons like Dora. Now they can't stand it and have passed their Dora toys on to younger cousins. There have been lots of things over the years that my kids have outgrown without any kind of prior notice.

[Verbena]

Is your husband typically very negative?  My husband's first response to anything and everything  is a negative comment, probably 99.5 percent of the time.   He doesn't backtrack and say "just kidding" though because he doesn't see any need to.  He's just "telling it like it is", a phrase his ultra-negative father used to use. 

The just kidding comment after the negative one seems to imply at least a little insight into himself.  He has to make the negative comment, but he tempers it with just kidding because he realizes how it sounds after it comes out. 

[Jessica84]

I try to take most just kidding's as a strange form of apology. A lot of non's back peddle with the same "just kidding". It's frustrating to hear from anyone when the "joke" is hurtful, but we all have foot-in-mouth from time to time. Could this be the case with your H? He seemed in a positive mood saying things like "Wow that looks nice!" and then joking around afterward. Sure beats dysregulation.

[gomez_addams]

My stbx uBPDw makes "observations"... .

As in, "I wasn't criticizing, it was just an observation." It's always when she's being insanely critical.

Or she'll be super demanding, and then send a follow up email to tell me she wasn't being demanding. Never an apology for being demanding, and never any attempt to tone down the demands or compromise. Same with condescending or whatever.

But I don't think I've heard the "just kidding" one before.

Gomez

[Sunfl0wer]

Yes!  My exSO did this definately!

My ex was more NPD vs BPD and I feel it was the more NPD traits that show up for him re this.

What I mean is that one statement like this, well, eh, it could be nothing... .right? However, he had a consistent way of always raining on the parade of me or my son.  He varied on the degree, but pretty much was consistent to do it always.  I am not sure if he did it specifically with the intention for me or my son to feel badly, or maybe he did it to minimize our happiness in his own head so he wouldn't feel bad. 

If there was something great to celebrate about my son or myself, instead of saying, "oh wow, that's great!" Or anything to share in the spirit and keep the positive vibes going, he instead would make at least one remark to deflate things... .sort of like the story about sour grapes.

He was clever enough to make the statement something very subtle in times he thought I may pick up on it, but always unable to resist the sour grape comment he could have kept to himself.

Most recently, most persons would have made some positive comments about my new apartment such as:  hey, good location for you.  Or I like the view.  Or anything... .

He says: Well, maybe you won't have too many mosquitoes?  (In a doubtful tone)

Lol, now I know that SOUNDS positive.  But if you knew him... .  He intentionally avoided 100 easy positive comments a person could make in the situation.  Fashioned his thinking around something he didn't like: the mosquitoes.  Then fixed the statement so he wouldn't sound negative.

I know it sounds crazy, but I know it was a "sour grape" comment in disguise that he filtered.

If you ever confronted him on it ever... .

"Just kidding"

":)idn't meant anything by it"

"You misunderstood me."

"I didn't say that"

Etc.

[gomez_addams]

If you ever confronted him on it ever... .

"Just kidding"

":)idn't meant anything by it"

"You misunderstood me."

"I didn't say that"

Etc.

Inability to take responsibility for any inappropriate behavior. That's how I see it.

Gomez

[an0ught]

Hi ColdEthyl,

Do you guys think it's his intent to sound like an ass? Or just his general charm?

The way I see it is that he intends to sound like an ass and that is his general charm. It is also are the core of his BPD problem, has many expressions and causes and is really worth understanding. Meet familiar words:

Invalidation & Twisting

For some reasons pwBPD tend to invalidate. We talk a lot about that here when it comes to fighting and those type of exchanges I have described here. Invalidation is a well rehearsed fighting pattern - it gives good and reliable results with the opponent i.e. gets the other guy quickly angry.

But how does fighting start? Often with the first invalidation originating with the pwBPD. Some of it is habit. Some of it may be very deep instinctive twisted thinking or a tendency to choose the exactly wrong action. There is a reason that pwBPD learn in therapy to stop and think and possibly choose the opposite action. Their instincts are in some areas simply wired the wrong way.

Sometimes this "wrong" way can be funny, come across as irony or sarcasm. Humor is to some degree invalidating us to an acceptable degree in the right moment. It can be charming.

And it can be totally obnoxious 

What can we do? Get the relationship in a habit of validation and deny satisfaction from wrong behavior through boundaries. Lather, rinse, repeat ad libitum.

[ColdEthyl]

Oh wow ok... .thank you so much for posting that link! It really helps me understand better. I just didn't get the need to get nasty from him, and it always seems knee-jerk in nature. He says something that pops into his head and quickly tries to cover the tracks back up.

I understand his nastiness in an argument, I understand the one-upping he does, but I didn't get why he takes random swings during simple, everyday talking. We will be laughing, conversing, having a good time... and boom. I suppose it's still that need for being "Number 1", or just to feel superior to someone.

[UserName69]

Hah the "Just Kidding" moments with a pwBPD. Yes they usually mean it, at least my exBPD did. I used to take her out for many dinners, once we got at her place she told me "You know you're pretty sad, because you spend so many money just to get laid? Can't you get laid without trying to bribe a girl in bed?". I got upset and decided to kick the ball back to her I told her "You know whats even more sad? Girls who spread their legs for money/gifts and food, they're even worse than prostitutes. At least you know what you can do if you end up on the streets if you lose your home again". I she told me once that she was homeless she interrupted me and told me that it was only a "joke". Later I told her that I made that harsh comment because I had the feeling that she's playing with my emotions and feelings.

Once she told me "If I get tired of you I'll dump you". Later she told me "It's a joke". One time out of nothing she told me that I don't love her, I told her I do while holding her in my arms she told me ":)o you say that to every girl before you sleep with her?". When I told her that I didn't like that comment she told me she was just "kidding".

Once when I confronted her with all these incidents she denied it, she told me that she didn't knew what she said and that I had to confront her immediately.

[SurfNTurf]

anOught, is invalidation and twisting similar to intentional antagonism? In addition to the invalidation I get from my uBPD husband, he does a fair amount of intentional antagonism. When I was dating him, I did not recognize it as a red flag - b/c after all, it was at that time never directed at me. (My mistake, I own it.) However, when I would ask him why he intentionally antagonizes people, when they are clearly made uncomfortable, his reply was, "I like to poke the tiger and see what I get." I thought that was odd and, again, never realized I would one day be the tiger he poked.

[ColdEthyl]

anOught, is invalidation and twisting similar to intentional antagonism? In addition to the invalidation I get from my uBPD husband, he does a fair amount of intentional antagonism. When I was dating him, I did not recognize it as a red flag - b/c after all, it was at that time never directed at me. (My mistake, I own it.) However, when I would ask him why he intentionally antagonizes people, when they are clearly made uncomfortable, his reply was, "I like to poke the tiger and see what I get." I thought that was odd and, again, never realized I would one day be the tiger he poked.

SurfnTurf, I can tell you my dBPDh has also told me on occasion he knows he pushes people's buttons until they want to 'hit him'.

[an0ught]

Hi SurfNTurf,

this poking is effective as it is invalidating - think of situation, the emotional state of the other person and what your H said and it will be exactly what needs to be said to be optimally upsetting.

Upsetting others through invalidation is a central behavioral mechanism pwBPD use to regulate their own emotion. For more see the thread here. It is working reliably, gets quick results and provides a sense of control. It is also very corrosive and over time turns the environment around the pwBPD against them.

Is it intentional? Some maybe. Some may be as intentional as OCD behavior where there is some awareness but no control. Some may be unintentional. Most of it helps him to feel better - good for him - but at the expense of others feeling worse.

Can we stop it or discuss it away? I doubt it, invalidation plays a central role in the functioning of a pwBPD. The insight of DBT was that instead of directly tackling the behavior like in previous therapy models help the pwBPD to learn healthier coping mechanisms as a first step. For partners the strategy behind the LESSONS is:

  - self care

  - protect through boundaries that are under our control what needs to be protected. Protecting us from being constantly upset for no good reason belongs in that category.

  - support emotional regulation through validation and provide a role model of healthy communication.

[Grey Kitty]

"Just kidding" is doubling down on the  invalidation.

Step one: say something invalidating to get a rise out of you.

Get a reaction. (Especially one calling out the hurtful aspect)

Step two: invalidate your (legitimate) reaction by saying "just kidding"

(Repeat as needed)

My father in law who had some NPD traits was the master of this kind of thing. When I called him on something mean he said, he accused me of being "thin skinned" as if it was my fault for finding his mean comment to be hurtful.

And as a0 said, self awareness or knowing intention may vary.

[ColdEthyl]

@GK

My H definitely has NPD traits. He simultaneously believes he's useless and good for nothing, and that he's the smartest man alive. I suppose it's an ego boost for him to get a 'rise' out of me. I understood that aspect when he's talking about a subject he's sure he knows more about, but I didn't get the 'direct meanness' that the JK statements are made of.

What's the best way to respond to these? I accept the fact that I'm going to knee-jerk my answers sometimes, but I'd like to be mindful and have a better response. My other question is there a better way to say to him "Hey that hurts my feelings" without triggering?

[Grey Kitty]

I dunno what works. I concluded that my father-in-law was not a safe person to talk about feelings with in any form. I concluded that saying anything about how what he just said was hurting my feelings was going to be a losing situation (for me at least), so I just ignored it.

That would be a much less satisfying choice with a spouse than a father-in-law. I wish I had a better idea for you.

My wife did it too some of the time, although not quite as bad. The best solution I recall using was to respond to the first bit of invalidation (without saying something that would trigger a 'just kidding' with f*** you or f*** you too. (Stated calmly, without shouting or significant feeling.) The point was that what she said was rude and unacceptable, and I wasn't going to debate it, engage with it, or fight it. It actually worked some of the time.

[ColdEthyl]

I dunno what works. I concluded that my father-in-law was not a safe person to talk about feelings with in any form. I concluded that saying anything about how what he just said was hurting my feelings was going to be a losing situation (for me at least), so I just ignored it.

That would be a much less satisfying choice with a spouse than a father-in-law. I wish I had a better idea for you.

My wife did it too some of the time, although not quite as bad. The best solution I recall using was to respond to the first bit of invalidation (without saying something that would trigger a 'just kidding' with f*** you or f*** you too. (Stated calmly, without shouting or significant feeling.) The point was that what she said was rude and unacceptable, and I wasn't going to debate it, engage with it, or fight it. It actually worked some of the time.

*Nods* I can respond with a smirk and sarcasm. It's in my DNA