Unable to have conversations if you don't agree

[LonelyChild]

This is so tiring. Yes, my ex has been psychotic and been locked up for 10 weeks in a psych ward. She is now being transferred to some special needs apartment. Whatever.

She had promised me she would stop smoking. It was on her initiative. Yesterday she calls me up and says she will start smoking e-cigarettes (the electronics ones, still with nicotine). I just calmly said I think it's very tiring that she never keeps promises, that she accuses me of never keeping promises, and always tries to find ways around her own promises to not keep them but still *kinda* keep them. She immediately started crying. Still very calm, I just asked her to remain in the conversation, that I'm not upset, that I'm not angry, that I don't hate her, I just want to try to reason calmly about it and how she sees it. She just cried like a two year old, hysterically, and said "how am I supposed to have a conversation when you make me feel like this." She had then gone to her mom and said I blew up in a rage towards her.

What the F is this S? I didn't say one mean thing, I just wanted to talk. How effed up are these people? I mean, what? What is it that prevents them from having a normal convo? I could understand it if I was upset or mean, but I was absolutely 100% relaxed and calm and said I just wanted to understand better.

[FannyB]

LonelyChild

What prevents a normal conversation? Because she's not 'normal' - that's what.

Everything you said seems perfectly reasonable, but in her head you pointed out an imperfection and shamed her. Shame has to be deflected to prevent her emotional annihilation - cue histrionics. 

[Mutt]

Hey LonelyChild,

I'm sorry to hear your ex is going through a difficult period. I can understand how frustrating that would be when our ex partners have difficulties keeping promises.

Are you a smoker?

I saw something on my Facebook feed from Tara Brach that I shared the other day that I believe is true.

We don't have to agree on anything to be kind to one another

I often don't agree with my ex partner and I am further along my healing path. I have kids with her and have to co-parent. I don't talk about past issues and focus on the present so I can get along with her for the sake of the kids. It's helped dad to be able to get along with mom for their needs.

[fromheeltoheal]

This is so tiring. Yes, my ex has been psychotic and been locked up for 10 weeks in a psych ward. She is now being transferred to some special needs apartment. Whatever.

She had promised me she would stop smoking. It was on her initiative. Yesterday she calls me up and says she will start smoking e-cigarettes (the electronics ones, still with nicotine). I just calmly said I think it's very tiring that she never keeps promises, that she accuses me of never keeping promises, and always tries to find ways around her own promises to not keep them but still *kinda* keep them. She immediately started crying. Still very calm, I just asked her to remain in the conversation, that I'm not upset, that I'm not angry, that I don't hate her, I just want to try to reason calmly about it and how she sees it. She just cried like a two year old, hysterically, and said "how am I supposed to have a conversation when you make me feel like this." She had then gone to her mom and said I blew up in a rage towards her.

What the F is this S? I didn't say one mean thing, I just wanted to talk. How effed up are these people? I mean, what? What is it that prevents them from having a normal convo? I could understand it if I was upset or mean, but I was absolutely 100% relaxed and calm and said I just wanted to understand better.

What is it that prevents them from having a normal convo?

Mental illness.  And for confirmation, she's in a psych ward.

"how am I supposed to have a conversation when you make me feel like this."

Isn't it nice to have that much power?  Where you can control how she feels?  Not being flippant, that's a common tactic we all use once in a while to play victim, not take responsibility, and blame someone else for whatever emotions we're experiencing.  Although if she is a diagnosed borderline she means it literally since she doesn't have a 'self' of her own, in her head you're one person, so your contribution to that person has extreme influence over her thoughts and feelings.

I don't know how long you were together Lonely, but having rational conversations with a borderline at this stage of the relationship is not an option, and it's better to look at your expectations around that and ask yourself why you engage.  Is this relationship over?

[LonelyChild]

Hey LonelyChild,

I'm sorry to hear your ex is going through a difficult period. I can understand how frustrating that would be when our ex partners have difficulties keeping promises.

Are you a smoker?

No, not a smoker. Never been.

Yes. Regarding her promise - it's 50% her health (she has enough health issues) and 50% her economy (she has no money whatsoever). It was on her initiative. Nothing I forced her into. I never became upset when she broke the promise. Only she did.

I saw something on my Facebook feed from Tara Brach that I shared the other day that I believe is true.

We don't have to agree on anything to be kind to one another

I often don't agree with my ex partner and I am further along my healing path. I have kids with her and have to co-parent. I don't talk about past issues and focus on the present so I can get along with her for the sake of the kids. It's helped dad to be able to get along with mom for their needs.

She's never kind though. Not to anyone, really.

[LonelyChild]

Is this relationship over?

In a sense, no, since we sill have contact. In a sense, yes, as it is absolutely 100% impossible to move forward since she has no problem resolving skills whatsoever.

If you asked her, she still hopes to marry me. If you ask me, I just hope our r/s will fade away to NC. It's hard to even love her anymore since she's absolutely incapable of giving in a r/s, romantic or not.

[Mutt]

Hey LonelyChild,

I'm sorry to hear your ex is going through a difficult period. I can understand how frustrating that would be when our ex partners have difficulties keeping promises.

Are you a smoker?

No, not a smoker. Never been.

Yes. Regarding her promise - it's 50% her health (she has enough health issues) and 50% her economy (she has no money whatsoever). It was on her initiative. Nothing I forced her into. I never became upset when she broke the promise. Only she did.

I saw something on my Facebook feed from Tara Brach that I shared the other day that I believe is true.

We don't have to agree on anything to be kind to one another

I often don't agree with my ex partner and I am further along my healing path. I have kids with her and have to co-parent. I don't talk about past issues and focus on the present so I can get along with her for the sake of the kids. It's helped dad to be able to get along with mom for their needs.

She's never kind though. Not to anyone, really.

I'm a smoker and its incredibly difficult to quit. It helps to understand why some people may not be so nice towards us with their behaviors. My ex will lash out and I understand its not about me. I choose to depersonalize her behaviors.  I'll quote Tara Brach.

Imagine you are walking through the woods and you see a small dog. You think the dog is cute and you approach the dog, wanting to pet it. It suddenly snarls and tries to bite you. The dog no longer seems cute and you may feel some fear and anger. As the wind blows, the leaves on the ground are carried away and you see the dog has one of its legs caught in a trap. Now, you feel compassion for the dog. You know it became aggressive because it is in pain and suffering.

[fromheeltoheal]

If you asked her, she still hopes to marry me. If you ask me, I just hope our r/s will fade away to NC. It's hard to even love her anymore since she's absolutely incapable of giving in a r/s, romantic or not.

It's good that you're focusing on what you hope for Lonely, in addition to what she hopes for, that's a step towards taking your power back.  And hope is a pretty powerless place, it's great to have hope, beats the hell out of hopeless, but really we have no control when we're hoping.  If she is disordered it will probably need to be you to take control and end the communication, and the hardest part at this stage will probably be you fighting your urge to contact her even though, as you mention, there's nothing for you there.  As she moves into this other living arrangement do you have plans to talk to her?

[LonelyChild]

As she moves into this other living arrangement do you have plans to talk to her?

I do. The only thing left is the addiction. I don't love her, I'm not in love with her, she has no money, no education, no job, her family of origin has abandoned her, she has no friends, she uses drugs and pills, she's violent and angry, she's gained 40 lbs and is now overweight, she has sores in her face due to her scratching it when upset. There is basically NOTHING left. Except my addiction - when I don't get to talk to her a few times a week, I get huge amounts of anxiety and cannot relax whatsoever, the nightmares starts, restlessness etc.

[fromheeltoheal]

I do. The only thing left is the addiction. I don't love her, I'm not in love with her, she has no money, no education, no job, her family of origin has abandoned her, she has no friends, she uses drugs and pills, she's violent and angry, she's gained 40 lbs and is now overweight, she has sores in her face due to her scratching it when upset. There is basically NOTHING left. Except my addiction - when I don't get to talk to her a few times a week, I get huge amounts of anxiety and cannot relax whatsoever, the nightmares starts, restlessness etc.

Except my addiction - when I don't get to talk to her a few times a week, I get huge amounts of anxiety and cannot relax whatsoever, the nightmares starts, restlessness etc.

Are you getting help with that?  Except here of course?  The best way to beat any addiction is don't fight it, create something new.  The something new in your case could be a vision for a bright future, without her in it, and then once you make that vision big and bright and start taking steps in that direction momentum will build.  What's one thing you're looking forward to that has nothing to do with her?

[LonelyChild]

Are you getting help with that?  Except here of course?  The best way to beat any addiction is don't fight it, create something new.  The something new in your case could be a vision for a bright future, without her in it, and then once you make that vision big and bright and start taking steps in that direction momentum will build.  What's one thing you're looking forward to that has nothing to do with her?

Yes, getting help with a P. Trying to create new things. Think I'm making a little bit of progress, but very slowly. I look forward to being single, actually. But I can't live the "single life" yet, because I'm so caught up in her life and she's very demanding. I'm looking forward to working on myself. I'm looking forward to being able to talk to friends on phone, or meet up with them, without coming up with lies to not upset her. I'm looking forward to moving on with my life. It's just so hard.

[UserName69]

Hey LonelyChild,

I'm sorry to hear your ex is going through a difficult period. I can understand how frustrating that would be when our ex partners have difficulties keeping promises.

Are you a smoker?

No, not a smoker. Never been.

Yes. Regarding her promise - it's 50% her health (she has enough health issues) and 50% her economy (she has no money whatsoever). It was on her initiative. Nothing I forced her into. I never became upset when she broke the promise. Only she did.

I saw something on my Facebook feed from Tara Brach that I shared the other day that I believe is true.

We don't have to agree on anything to be kind to one another

I often don't agree with my ex partner and I am further along my healing path. I have kids with her and have to co-parent. I don't talk about past issues and focus on the present so I can get along with her for the sake of the kids. It's helped dad to be able to get along with mom for their needs.

She's never kind though. Not to anyone, really.

I'm a smoker and its incredibly difficult to quit. It helps to understand why some people may not be so nice towards us with their behaviors. My ex will lash out and I understand its not about me. I choose to depersonalize her behaviors.  I'll quote Tara Brach.

Imagine you are walking through the woods and you see a small dog. You think the dog is cute and you approach the dog, wanting to pet it. It suddenly snarls and tries to bite you. The dog no longer seems cute and you may feel some fear and anger. As the wind blows, the leaves on the ground are carried away and you see the dog has one of its legs caught in a trap. Now, you feel compassion for the dog. You know it became aggressive because it is in pain and suffering.

I know this is off topic but here is what I want to say. Maybe you should start with cigars? I know it sounds weird but it's a good way to stop smoking cigarettes. Cigars are way better, cigarette smokers say they taste great compared to a cigarette, they don't contain chemicals, you don't inhale them, they smell great. Smoking cigars is a hobby and not a habit.

I never smoked cigarettes in my life but I do smoke cigars, recently a friend of mine started to smoke cigars with me. He is a cigarette smoker and whenever he smokes one cigar he doesn't want to smoke a cigarette for the entire day. I don't find them addictive I can do perfectly without them. A lot of cigarette smokers who start with cigars will never touch a cigarette again.

[fromheeltoheal]

Are you getting help with that?  Except here of course?  The best way to beat any addiction is don't fight it, create something new.  The something new in your case could be a vision for a bright future, without her in it, and then once you make that vision big and bright and start taking steps in that direction momentum will build.  What's one thing you're looking forward to that has nothing to do with her?

Yes, getting help with a P. Trying to create new things. Think I'm making a little bit of progress, but very slowly. I look forward to being single, actually. But I can't live the "single life" yet, because I'm so caught up in her life and she's very demanding. I'm looking forward to working on myself. I'm looking forward to being able to talk to friends on phone, or meet up with them, without coming up with lies to not upset her. I'm looking forward to moving on with my life. It's just so hard.

What if you and some friends went on a vacation for a week, with no phone, what would that mean?  What if you did something to break the pattern, realizing the most difficult part is at the beginning?

[LonelyChild]

Are you getting help with that?  Except here of course?  The best way to beat any addiction is don't fight it, create something new.  The something new in your case could be a vision for a bright future, without her in it, and then once you make that vision big and bright and start taking steps in that direction momentum will build.  What's one thing you're looking forward to that has nothing to do with her?

Yes, getting help with a P. Trying to create new things. Think I'm making a little bit of progress, but very slowly. I look forward to being single, actually. But I can't live the "single life" yet, because I'm so caught up in her life and she's very demanding. I'm looking forward to working on myself. I'm looking forward to being able to talk to friends on phone, or meet up with them, without coming up with lies to not upset her. I'm looking forward to moving on with my life. It's just so hard.

What if you and some friends went on a vacation for a week, with no phone, what would that mean?  What if you did something to break the pattern, realizing the most difficult part is at the beginning?

I've thought about it. I feel that if I did, she would use it as a reason to do something really stupid and I would end up with all the blame and fault.

[fromheeltoheal]

Are you getting help with that?  Except here of course?  The best way to beat any addiction is don't fight it, create something new.  The something new in your case could be a vision for a bright future, without her in it, and then once you make that vision big and bright and start taking steps in that direction momentum will build.  What's one thing you're looking forward to that has nothing to do with her?

Yes, getting help with a P. Trying to create new things. Think I'm making a little bit of progress, but very slowly. I look forward to being single, actually. But I can't live the "single life" yet, because I'm so caught up in her life and she's very demanding. I'm looking forward to working on myself. I'm looking forward to being able to talk to friends on phone, or meet up with them, without coming up with lies to not upset her. I'm looking forward to moving on with my life. It's just so hard.

What if you and some friends went on a vacation for a week, with no phone, what would that mean?  What if you did something to break the pattern, realizing the most difficult part is at the beginning?

I've thought about it. I feel that if I did, she would use it as a reason to do something really stupid and I would end up with all the blame and fault.

Part of detaching is taking our power back.  You would only be to blame and at fault if you accept that from her; can you make the choice not to?  Can you put your needs first?  What would it mean if you did?

[LonelyChild]

Are you getting help with that?  Except here of course?  The best way to beat any addiction is don't fight it, create something new.  The something new in your case could be a vision for a bright future, without her in it, and then once you make that vision big and bright and start taking steps in that direction momentum will build.  What's one thing you're looking forward to that has nothing to do with her?

Yes, getting help with a P. Trying to create new things. Think I'm making a little bit of progress, but very slowly. I look forward to being single, actually. But I can't live the "single life" yet, because I'm so caught up in her life and she's very demanding. I'm looking forward to working on myself. I'm looking forward to being able to talk to friends on phone, or meet up with them, without coming up with lies to not upset her. I'm looking forward to moving on with my life. It's just so hard.

What if you and some friends went on a vacation for a week, with no phone, what would that mean?  What if you did something to break the pattern, realizing the most difficult part is at the beginning?

I've thought about it. I feel that if I did, she would use it as a reason to do something really stupid and I would end up with all the blame and fault.

Part of detaching is taking our power back.  You would only be to blame and at fault if you accept that from her; can you make the choice not to?  Can you put your needs first?  What would it mean if you did?

I don't think I can. At least not yet. It would mean that I was not good enough and that she would replace me with someone better.

[fromheeltoheal]

Are you getting help with that?  Except here of course?  The best way to beat any addiction is don't fight it, create something new.  The something new in your case could be a vision for a bright future, without her in it, and then once you make that vision big and bright and start taking steps in that direction momentum will build.  What's one thing you're looking forward to that has nothing to do with her?

Yes, getting help with a P. Trying to create new things. Think I'm making a little bit of progress, but very slowly. I look forward to being single, actually. But I can't live the "single life" yet, because I'm so caught up in her life and she's very demanding. I'm looking forward to working on myself. I'm looking forward to being able to talk to friends on phone, or meet up with them, without coming up with lies to not upset her. I'm looking forward to moving on with my life. It's just so hard.

What if you and some friends went on a vacation for a week, with no phone, what would that mean?  What if you did something to break the pattern, realizing the most difficult part is at the beginning?

I've thought about it. I feel that if I did, she would use it as a reason to do something really stupid and I would end up with all the blame and fault.

Part of detaching is taking our power back.  You would only be to blame and at fault if you accept that from her; can you make the choice not to?  Can you put your needs first?  What would it mean if you did?

I don't think I can. At least not yet. It would mean that I was not good enough and that she would replace me with someone better.

So you're not good enough for a woman you describe as:

I don't love her, I'm not in love with her, she has no money, no education, no job, her family of origin has abandoned her, she has no friends, she uses drugs and pills, she's violent and angry, she's gained 40 lbs and is now overweight, she has sores in her face due to her scratching it when upset. There is basically NOTHING left.

Not to mention the psych ward.  The solution is to just change that belief, and coming up with a new one is pretty easy to do: what do you think it might be?  A new belief and a radical break from your routine, like a week away with no contact, might shake things up enough, at this point anything less than radical might not work.  What will change in the future on its own that will make things different otherwise?

[LonelyChild]

Are you getting help with that?  Except here of course?  The best way to beat any addiction is don't fight it, create something new.  The something new in your case could be a vision for a bright future, without her in it, and then once you make that vision big and bright and start taking steps in that direction momentum will build.  What's one thing you're looking forward to that has nothing to do with her?

Yes, getting help with a P. Trying to create new things. Think I'm making a little bit of progress, but very slowly. I look forward to being single, actually. But I can't live the "single life" yet, because I'm so caught up in her life and she's very demanding. I'm looking forward to working on myself. I'm looking forward to being able to talk to friends on phone, or meet up with them, without coming up with lies to not upset her. I'm looking forward to moving on with my life. It's just so hard.

What if you and some friends went on a vacation for a week, with no phone, what would that mean?  What if you did something to break the pattern, realizing the most difficult part is at the beginning?

I've thought about it. I feel that if I did, she would use it as a reason to do something really stupid and I would end up with all the blame and fault.

Part of detaching is taking our power back.  You would only be to blame and at fault if you accept that from her; can you make the choice not to?  Can you put your needs first?  What would it mean if you did?

I don't think I can. At least not yet. It would mean that I was not good enough and that she would replace me with someone better.

So you're not good enough for a woman you describe as:

I don't love her, I'm not in love with her, she has no money, no education, no job, her family of origin has abandoned her, she has no friends, she uses drugs and pills, she's violent and angry, she's gained 40 lbs and is now overweight, she has sores in her face due to her scratching it when upset. There is basically NOTHING left.

Not to mention the psych ward.  The solution is to just change that belief, and coming up with a new one is pretty easy to do: what do you think it might be?  A new belief and a radical break from your routine, like a week away with no contact, might shake things up enough, at this point anything less than radical might not work.  What will change in the future on its own that will make things different otherwise?

i had to think a while about what you said. Because you're spot on. Apparently I feel I'm not good enough for the lousiest person I know on this planet. I was trying to come up with something good to say about her. I honestly can't. Her mother called me last night and we spoke for half an hour. I told her I can't say anything good about her anymore. She went quiet for a second and then said "neither can I, and I'm her mother."

Basically, there is nothing left to say about her that is positive. She is good looking, but since she gained weight and pulled five teeth out because her teeth are rotting because of meds, she's not even that anymore. She used to be pretty intelligent, but it never shows anymore because her memory isn't working because of meds (she can't remember ANYTHING that she has done or that anyone has said, it's all a fog).

She's in a psych ward, going to some special needs living. She's not paying her rent, she's on social welfare programs, she doesn't even have high school grades, never ever had a job, she doesn't know one single person who is not a drug addict or something thereof. No driver's license. She is not amibitious. She can't cook food, she refuses to make her own bed in the psych ward. The staff there once told me the other patients are very tired of her because she's always stirring up chaos and drama. She also steals stuff in stores instead of paying for it. She refuses to wash her own clothes. Her FOO (mother, father, brother) don't want anything to do with her at all.

Yeah. I don't know what to say that is positive. She has a cute voice and cute lips. I guess. I wish she would just disappear into thin air and never have existed in my life.

[fromheeltoheal]

OK, so that's her, now how about you?

You mention that if you were to put your needs first and disconnect from her, it would mean you're not good enough and she would replace you with someone better.

What could you believe instead?

Breaking an addiction really is that simple; don't fight it, create something new and go there, and it starts with replacing that belief.  So what would the new one be?  What would it mean if you put your needs first, in an empowering way?

[LonelyChild]

OK, so that's her, now how about you?

You mention that if you were to put your needs first and disconnect from her, it would mean you're not good enough and she would replace you with someone better.

What could you believe instead?

Breaking an addiction really is that simple; don't fight it, create something new and go there, and it starts with replacing that belief.  So what would the new one be?  What would it mean if you put your needs first, in an empowering way?

I honestly don't know. I came to think of something a while back; I can't enjoy anything anymore. This change started long before our r/s ended.

Before I met her, I had hobbies, I could enjoy movies, walks, hanging out, etc. All of it is just filled with anxiety now. I don't have any hobbies. I can't enjoy them anymore. I can't watch a movie, enjoy it and relax. I feel lonely even when hanging out with people. Is this PTSD or what is it?

I don't know what to do. Everything feels like an infinite desert of emptiness. I had so many plans for both me (before I met her) and for us.

[fromheeltoheal]

Everything feels like an infinite desert of emptiness.

OK, let's use that.  Can you see that oasis?  That one a little ways towards the horizon?  What's in it?  I can see you in it, prancing around from hobby to hobby with a big smile on your face and a spark in your eyes.  Do you see it?  Tell me Lonely, what's in that oasis?  How great is it and how badly do you want to go there?

Part of taking your power back is to create a vision for a future you want to live and then go there.  So go there with me Lonely; what's in that oasis?