Am I enabling?

[ColdEthyl]

My dBPDh has been having health issues, and I finally got him to go to the doctor. After the initial visit, the doc ordered a bunch of labs, tests and appointments for him. He has some early stages of COPD, so he needs to stop smoking NOW, go to his respiratory therapy, and do what the doctor tells him to do.

Well, he skipped out on the last two appointments. The first one was one I talked about on here previously. IT came with a big dysregulation and blaming. (he only went because I "forced" him, he'd rather die of cancer than ever know about it, I should have known he can't do more than one appointment a week, he thought I was smarter than that, etc etc)

After that, he told me he can't handle more than one per week. I agreed to not schedule more than one appointment per week.

Well, his next appointment he was all set to go until that morning. I woke him up early as we planned the night before, then he tells me he can't do it. He said he's scared and can't go alone. At this point, he says he cannot have more than one appointment per month.

*sigh*

So, I rescheduled the appointments to make them once a month, and I have agreed to go with him. I want to go because I want him to go for his health but my question is... am I enabling his being so reliant on me? Is there a different angle to look at this thing?

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[formflier]

  I want to go because I want him to go for his health but my question is... am I enabling his being so reliant on me? Is there a different angle to look at this thing?

I don't think enabling is the right word... .

you are helping get him to a doctor.

Do you buy him cigarettes? 

Boy... .this is frustrating to read... .I can't imagine living it.  Hang in there!   

I would stick with 1 per week... but assume you have to go with him. 

If he won't get in the car... .well... .not sure what you can stop doing for him... .or if that is even wise.


Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

 

Remind me again about his T status?  Or his status going to any mental health professional?

[ColdEthyl]

Remind me again about his T status?  Or his status going to any mental health professional?

We are actually starting a DBT workbook together tonight. He won't go to T unless it's with me... .and couples T is not what we need. At first I thought well, we can go and maybe it will lead to him going to see a T, but I thought I'd try this at home first.

No, I do not buy his cigarettes. I bought E-cigarettes for him to stop per the doctor. I can't stop him from going to get them. If he goes to respiratory therapy like they said, they offer quitting help.

His social anxiety has gotten worse over the past 2 years, and I think it's because he feels safe and comfortable with me, and he just wants to shut everyone else out.

[formflier]

 

Somehow... he needs to get "safe and comfortable" with you ... .in exchange for going to appointments.

As long as he is letting you make appointments... .makem... .and get him to the places he needs to go.

1 a month isn't going to work.

How does he get money to go buy them... .if he goes on his own?  Does he get disability?

FF

[SurfNTurf]

Hi Ethyl,

I am going to be the voice of opposition here on this thread.

I am an RN. You have to ask your husband, "At what point does your responsibility for your health end, and mine begin?" (the obvious answer should be, he is responsible for himself.)

That said, he may be understandably frightened of outcomes, and even the idea of quitting, b/c it's been such a reliable habit for so long.

As long as he can manipulate you to make appts then break appts, he can use typical BPD behaviors to get his way.

Just my 2-cents.

Also, if/when he does decide to quit smoking - quitting takes practice. It isn't always successful the first few times.

hang in there!

[ColdEthyl]

How does he get money to go buy them... .if he goes on his own?  Does he get disability?

He does. He's actually really good at giving me most of his money to go towards bills, he keeps only about 100 per month for himself. I got lucky on that one... .I've seen what some other people go through with money and their pwBPD.

I am an RN. You have to ask your husband, "At what point does your responsibility for your health end, and mine begin?" (the obvious answer should be, he is responsible for himself.)

See that's the part I'm stuck on. I know all of it is his responsibility... .he would never go to the doctor if I just let it go. He did only go to begin with because I just told him he was going to after a year of health problems. I'm stuck between wanting my husband to get better and not wanting to make his mental health worse in the process. If I just said fine... .do what you want... .it won't happen.

As long as he can manipulate you to make appts then break appts, he can use typical BPD behaviors to get his way.

EEEEgads I know it... .and saw this coming. I had hoped after I went with him the first time he would continue on. He seemed committed to getting better and everything after that first appointment.

Well I hope this way if I go and I drive... .he won't break it. If he does... .ugh I don't know how to handle it.

Also, if/when he does decide to quit smoking - quitting takes practice. It isn't always successful the first few times

It's horrible. I had quit for several years after I think my 4th attempt. My brother had a mental breakdown and I picked them back up. I'm back on full vape right now, but I'd like to get back off of that, too. H and I had a plan... .and he's screwing it up! rofl

[formflier]

 

Can I suggest a different question for you to ask?

What is the appropriate amount of participation I should play in my husband's self destruction? 

that might be a bit strong... .

sabotage might be a better word.

Then... .ask same thing but use the world "watch".  Will you sit around and watch him self destruct.

So... boundaries can sometime feel and be manipulative.  Whether they are good or bad... .sort of depends on the purpose.

So... .you control what you do and don't do.

So... if your hubby breaks his word and doesn't go to appointments... .what do you do or not do?

Am I onto something here?  Thoughts?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Uhm. Yes, you are enabling.

At least enabling his social anxiety.

I'd say you are dangerously close to trying to control him too, as far as doctors appointments go.

His health. Not your responsibility.

Living with somebody who is self destructing is hard to do; it is hard to watch. But having a control battle over it doesn't really make it easier.

 there aren't easy options for you here that I see.

[mom2bpd]

I totally agree with the others that u are enabling. I knew my H was an alcoholic first so al-anon taught me well to not do for others what they can do for themselves. I made one appointment for my H in the last ten years only because he asked and we were going to the same doc at the time. I told him about the appointment and he missed it so my doctor asked me to pay the minimum fee. My H said I told him the wrong date. Doesn't really matter because I then knew I had taken responsibility when he should have for his own health. He asked me to make him another appointment a month later and I said no way. Also your H has to really want to stop smoking before he can even attempt truly quitting. You cannot control his desire to smoke no matter how many doctor visits you go to with him.  You may need to develop the attitude that you are hands off while he destroys himself.  I know it sounds cruel but we are not responsible for another adult in any way.

[waverider]

It is hard, I go through a lot of this in many areas. reality is if they are not committed enough to go then they will not be committed enough to stick to any treatment.

I try to state the consequences in simple black and white terms then avoid arguing about it. Arguing and nagging about it distracts from the real issue and increases the chance of them avoiding it.

It is very hard to watch someone wasting their life though.

My wife "couldn't be bothered" going for a mammogram yesterday as a follow up after having gone through 3C breast cancer treatment. That is a pretty important appointment for something that is not all that hard to do.

Even the original diagnosis took 3 rescheduled appointments before she turned up, by which time it was a large tum our and 10 affected lymph nodes... It happens over and over, and the more you stress about it the more reluctant they seem to be.

As long as you are trying to fix things for them why should they bother, and they take that approach to extremes. Ironically they can sabotage your attempts as they see it as an invalidation of their own ability to look after themselves... .Ultimately self sabotaging...

[Sunfl0wer]

While I agree that the situation appears codependent, I wonder though if there is a role and pattern established between you two that originally was functioning, however, got abused.

For instance... .  Yes, I can get my car serviced, however, my partner worked close to the mechanic and it made sense for him to assume this role.  However,mi did not thwart his efforts to do this in any way.

So I wonder if at some point it was actually not a codependent thing for you to schedule the appointments, but more of a designation of tasks and roles in a larger cooperation of the partnership.

In any event, it may be a more beneficial solution in your case... .

Instead of ceasing to make appointments for your partner who has come to depend on you for this.

What about clearly letting him know that you plan to make the appointments, not every wk or every month, but as the Dr. Prescribes and wants... .if he thinks that would be helpful... .or he can do it himself.  However, he must either keep the appointment, or cancel and reschedule it himself.  Do not rescue him from no show fees etc. do not reschedule or call if he plans to be irresponsible and miss.  Or maybe some similar solution along that thought process... .of assisting only when your assist is a "healthy enabling" vs destructive one.  Enabling is not always "bad." However, in this situation it is certainly being manipulated by him... .into an unhealthy enabling.

[formflier]

 

I'm struggling with this one... .

If this was a long term thing... .I would tend toward agreeing it is enabling.

What I see is ColdEthyl trying to unstick a stuck dynamic.  He wasn't going to drs at all.  And it seemed obvious he needed to.

Perhaps there is a partial solution at the dr office that unsticks other areas of the r/s... .and momentum builds

"Waiting" on a pwBPD to make healthy choices is rarely mentioned on here as a good strategy... .it's usually up to the nons to show leadership and change the dynamic.

Now... .if this debate was going on after a year of this... .or even 6 months... .I might sing a different tune.

I like to think of good better best.

Best:  he makes appointments and goes

better:  she makes appointments and he goes

good:  she makes appointments and he goes when he feels like it... .and skips otherwise

bad:  He doesn't make appointment and doesn't go


What role should ColdEthyl play in changing the dynamic in her r/s with regards to these health issues? 

Especially since they are someone unknowns... .due to lack of dr oversight.

FF

[ColdEthyl]

Can I suggest a different question for you to ask?

What is the appropriate amount of participation I should play in my husband's self destruction? 

that might be a bit strong... .

sabotage might be a better word.

Then... .ask same thing but use the world "watch".  Will you sit around and watch him self destruct.

So... boundaries can sometime feel and be manipulative.  Whether they are good or bad... .sort of depends on the purpose.

So... .you control what you do and don't do.

So... if your hubby breaks his word and doesn't go to appointments... .what do you do or not do?

Am I onto something here?  Thoughts?

FF

FF you summed up what's going on in my head. How much do I do... .or not do. What do I do if he breaks his word? What can I do?

At least enabling his social anxiety.

I'd say you are dangerously close to trying to control him too, as far as doctors appointments go.

I figured I was enabling the social anxiety. Not something I want to do... .but not something I can figure out how to get around. Dangerously close is too kind. I am controlling him in certain aspects.

It is very hard to watch someone wasting their life though.

This is the terrible truth of it. Even in a 'non' relationship, people's reactions to health concerns vary, and some will choose to shut down/ignore said problem... .leaving their loved ones confused, hurt, scared, and angry. This is extremely difficult for me. My ex-husband died at 42 from lung cancer. He had no contact with me or his children in 2 years, and decided to keep this fact to himself until one of his family members told us about 2 months before his death.

While I agree that the situation appears codependent, I wonder though if there is a role and pattern established between you two that originally was functioning, however, got abused.

For instance... . Yes, I can get my car serviced, however, my partner worked close to the mechanic and it made sense for him to assume this role.  However,mi did not thwart his efforts to do this in any way.

So I wonder if at some point it was actually not a codependent thing for you to schedule the appointments, but more of a designation of tasks and roles in a larger cooperation of the partnership.

In any event, it may be a more beneficial solution in your case... .

Instead of ceasing to make appointments for your partner who has come to depend on you for this.

I am a doer. I am a giver. I know this opens me up for co-dependency, and this is something I'm trying to work on. It's hard for me to tell the difference between enabling and helping. To me, I don't mind calling and making appointments. I am the secretary of the household and I wouldn't want it any other way. I don't mind going with him to his appointments either but not minding doesn't always mean it's healthy for him or or for me.

If he skips out again, I will not reschedule. I will not offer to go with him. I have already agreed to these terms, so I will follow through. But, gees... .this really sucks  

Waverider:

As long as you are trying to fix things for them why should they bother, and they take that approach to extremes. Ironically they can sabotage your attempts as they see it as an invalidation of their own ability to look after themselves... .Ultimately self sabotaging...

I get major push/pull from him. He will talk about how useless he is, how he should work, how he should do this or that. When he's dysregulating, he will mention that I'm controlling/coddling him, but then turn around and beg me to go with him to the doc, help him with this or that, etc.

I get so confused... .so lost in this r/s sometimes. :/ I'm trying to help... .I make things worse. I do nothing... .things get worse.

[ColdEthyl]

I'm struggling with this one... .

If this was a long term thing... .I would tend toward agreeing it is enabling.

What I see is ColdEthyl trying to unstick a stuck dynamic.  He wasn't going to drs at all.  And it seemed obvious he needed to.

Perhaps there is a partial solution at the dr office that unsticks other areas of the r/s... .and momentum builds

"Waiting" on a pwBPD to make healthy choices is rarely mentioned on here as a good strategy... .it's usually up to the nons to show leadership and change the dynamic.

Now... .if this debate was going on after a year of this... .or even 6 months... .I might sing a different tune.

I like to think of good better best.

Best:  he makes appointments and goes

better:  she makes appointments and he goes

good:  she makes appointments and he goes when he feels like it... .and skips otherwise

bad:  He doesn't make appointment and doesn't go


What role should ColdEthyl play in changing the dynamic in her r/s with regards to these health issues? 

Especially since they are someone unknowns... .due to lack of dr oversight.

FF

FF... .you summed it all up perfectly. This is what I was trying to convey. As I said, it's not that I mind making the appointments. I honestly don't even mind going, but I wonder if my going is bad for him, or is it ok since he will go if I do?

"Waiting" on a pwBPD to make healthy choices is rarely mentioned on here as a good strategy... .it's usually up to the nons to show leadership and change the dynamic.

And that's where I get lost in translation.

[formflier]

 

In order to make good decisions... .you need information... .

To get that... you have to go do dr and get tests... .follow up... .etc etc.

Treatment is another matter... .that is the decision that needs to be made.

My suggestion... .keep after him... .get him to dr by hook... .or crook... .and get the info and diagnosis.

Then... .once you have a clear picture... .leave it up to him to treat... .or not.

You can make decisions about your future role in the r/s based on information about what is faced... .instead of conjecture and guessing.

 

Very sorry for the experience you had with your ex. 

Might do well to think about what role you will play... .if your current husband clearly chooses to self destruct.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

As long as you are trying to fix things for them why should they bother, and they take that approach to extremes. Ironically they can sabotage your attempts as they see it as an invalidation of their own ability to look after themselves... .Ultimately self sabotaging...

I get major push/pull from him. He will talk about how useless he is, how he should work, how he should do this or that. When he's dysregulating, he will mention that I'm controlling/coddling him, but then turn around and beg me to go with him to the doc, help him with this or that, etc.

I get so confused... .so lost in this r/s sometimes. :/ I'm trying to help... .I make things worse. I do nothing... .things get worse.

Here's one thing for certain: If you look to what your H *SAYS* about your relationship as any sort of direct guide on what you should do, you *WILL* be horribly confused. And make a mess of things.

What he says is a good indication of his mental state (at that time).

Finding the right path on how to deal with this sort of thing requires better guidance than he can give you. Look to your own values and make your own choices.

I'm not saying to discount his preferences/desires/needs. I'm not saying to discount his words. But don't take any of this sort of thing as literal guidance!

[waverider]

I found that to attempt to totally avoid enabling you will end up with a cold clinical relationship, with little bonding and lots of conflict.

The important thing is to realize the dynamics and consequences and make CHOICE as to what you are happy to "enable', there are lots of little things that have minimal consequences, and what areas to be firm in and apply consistent boundaries where necessary.

Being clear is the key, it is transparent and they will more readily accept it.

work out a payback if you like "I will scratch your back if you scratch mine". This is how i have restructured our RS so that I get good slabs of "me" time, in return I stay off her back about certain dysfunctions.

[waverider]

.

So I wonder if at some point it was actually not a codependent thing for you to schedule the appointments, but more of a designation of tasks and roles in a larger cooperation of the partnership.

Often is the case, precedent is set on some minor reasonable basis and then it just stretches to encompass everthing

[ColdEthyl]

I'm not saying to discount his preferences/desires/needs. I'm not saying to discount his words. But don't take any of this sort of thing as literal guidance!

I don't. I don't go based on what he says. What I go based on is how I feel, but what I feel conflicts with my understanding of enabling, or my lack of understanding, as it were. I want to help, I don't want to enable.

The important thing is to realize the dynamics and consequences and make CHOICE as to what you are happy to "enable', there are lots of little things that have minimal consequences, and what areas to be firm in and apply consistent boundaries where necessary.

Perhaps I've taken an entirely too literal look at enabling and what it means. There are things in my r/s that I don't mind and in fact prefer. I prefer to be the person who does the money management, planning, coordinating, etc. If I knew he was going to flake out on these appointments because he needs me to be there... .I don't mind that, either. However, my concern was if it was healthy for him, or if down the road this will cause him to become more dependent in all areas of the relationship.

[waverider]

However, my concern was if it was healthy for him, or if down the road this will cause him to become more dependent in all areas of the relationship.

What you need to find is an achievable balance, you will always have to make a stand on wherever you draw your lines, as dependency does seem to spread given half the chance

[vortex of confusion]

I have a couple of thoughts as there are a lot of similarities in our situations.

First, if he has social anxiety and doesn't want to do anything without you, would it be possible to encourage him to do small things that do not involve things like going to the doctor. My husband works outside the house. For a while there, it seemed like he couldn't/wouldn't do anything besides go to work. He would do some grocery shopping but that is about it. He was in a band for a while and wouldn't go to band practice unless I went with him. It didn't matter that I had to arrange babysitting and ended up sitting on the floor or couch the whole time. It was maddening that he couldn't do much of anything without me. I am happy to report that it has changed.

A couple of things happened. One, I try to encourage him to do things on his own without me. Big stuff like going to the doctor isn't a big deal any more. For the longest time, he wouldn't go at all. When his undiagnosed diabetes got out of control, I took him to the emergency room. That scared him quite a bit. I used to bug him about his appointments. Now, I don't say a word about his appointments or anything like that. I leave that up to him. The key is to figure out how to dump the information in his lap and let him decide what to do with it. No, you don't want to see him suffer or have ill health. However, it is his body and his choice. No matter how painful it is to see, it is still his choice.

I question the idea of getting him to the doctor by hook or by crook. How many people post on here about how much they dislike it when the pwBPD tries to insist that they have a problem or need to do something? I see those posts quite a bit. Having something like BPD doesn't take away a person's bodily autonomy.

It is difficult to explain how my situation got better. At some point I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't going to do these things for him. He had to do them for himself. I am too busy with kids and other stuff. It was rather ugly for a while because it seemed like he wanted to be so far up my butt that I felt like I couldn't breathe half the time. It is kind of like how you deal with a kid. You gradually work on helping them become independent. Even if it doesn't bother you to do some of this stuff for him, I think it helps to put some of it back on him. It isn't being mean. It is recognizing that he is his own person and needs to take responsibility accordingly. The hardest thing for me is to step back, keep my mouth shut, and resist the urge to do stuff.

[Cat Familiar]

As we have mentioned before, we see a lot of similarities in our husband's behaviors. I've discovered that if I press my husband to do something, even something inconsequential that requires a minimum of energy, he will push back and not do it.

Recently in a conversation, I said how much my individual therapy had been helping me and my husband briefly talked about feeling "stuck." I emailed him the name and phone number of a therapist I had spoken to, but hadn't used, when we were embarking upon couples therapy a couple of years ago and said no more on the topic. Was I ever surprised when he made an appointment!

Sometimes passive management seems to be more effective than active management with pwBPD.

[waverider]

Sometimes passive management seems to be more effective than active management with pwBPD.

Agree, pressure begets resistance.

We tend to assume they don't listen, but often the less words you use the more they hear, and the more likely any consequential action can be attributed to themselves, along with any praise for said action.

[ColdEthyl]

Thanks for all of the info and experiences, guys. It's difficult in the day-to-day moments to know exactly what to do/say, or how to respond properly. This weekend, we did some work in the DBT training workbook, and he did well. He even caught and corrected himself... .I was playing a video game and he started the usual routine of telling me how to play and what to do, and after the 3rd time I got annoyed and he said "You know what? I'm sorry. You are right. Sometimes I am overbearing with my knowledge of things. I just like to share what I know." I told him it's alright and I understood he gets excited when he knows about something... .I get excited, too.

I about fell over when he said he was sorry AND I was right in the same sentence... .without sarcasm

He has a dental appointment Wednesday that he swears he will go to himself, and I am not bringing it up at all. If he goes... .he goes. That one I'm not worried about.

Since I told him I would go to his other appointments, I will still go. Maybe in a month or two after some more DBT work, he will be in a different place, as will I

On another note, for those who knew about the ED issues he was having... .he's getting some Viagra on Thursday so WOOT for me! Looking back, it's so bizarre that for years he was so against it, so sure that I wouldn't be excited or turned on by him if he was on that pill, and now all of a sudden HE'S excited about getting them and can't wait. All the fear... .anxiety he put himself through only to be OK with it at end. It was like he finally realized that I honestly didn't care about a physical issue.

With that in mind... .everyone hope for me to be walking funny on Friday after a super long drought!