Are alpha males immune from being split black by a borderline?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

a mature woman doesn't do that even if it elicits overreactions, and THAT tells you more than anything else.

You're right, BPD is emotional arrested development, emotional immaturity. She lacks impulse control that can illicit emotional reactions with us.

Could my ex already be devaluing her husband? She recently reached out to my ex friend ( my replacement) to ask for a kindle back that I bought her for her birthday a few years ago. She did this behind her husband's back. He found out about it and sent my ex friend a threatening email to leave his wife alone or else! Then she contacted my friend after that and told him not to worry and that her husband is just very possessive. First of all, this drama makes her feel important and seems to be planned by her. I may be reading too much into this but it does not sound good for new marriage does it?

I agree swimjim it's drama. It sounds like her H ( persecutor ) was rescuing his wife ( victim ) with sending a threatening letter and then she's rescuing your ex friend and saying her H is very possessive ( persecutor ) BPD is a persecution complex.

It's a drama triangle.

[Mutt]

a mature woman doesn't do that even if it elicits overreactions, and THAT tells you more than anything else.

You're right, BPD is emotional arrested development, emotional immaturity. She lacks impulse control that can illicit emotional reactions with us.

Could my ex already be devaluing her husband? She recently reached out to my ex friend ( my replacement) to ask for a kindle back that I bought her for her birthday a few years ago. She did this behind her husband's back. He found out about it and sent my ex friend a threatening email to leave his wife alone or else! Then she contacted my friend after that and told him not to worry and that her husband is just very possessive. First of all, this drama makes her feel important and seems to be planned by her. I may be reading too much into this but it does not sound good for new marriage does it?

I agree swimjim it's drama. It sounds like her H ( persecutor ) was rescuing his wife ( victim ) with sending a threatening letter and then she's rescuing your ex friend and saying her H is very possessive ( persecutor ) BPD is a persecution complex.

It's a drama triangle.

[swimjim]

Could my ex already be devaluing her husband? She recently reached out to my ex friend ( my replacement) to ask for a kindle back that I bought her for her birthday a few years ago. She did this behind her husband's back. He found out about it and sent my ex friend a threatening email to leave his wife alone or else! Then she contacted my friend after that and told him not to worry and that her husband is just very possessive. First of all, this drama makes her feel important and seems to be planned by her. I may be reading too much into this but it does not sound good for new marriage does it?

You may be reading too much in to it but even if you are (1) that's what a relationship with someone like that does to your ability to think clearly about them, their actions and motivations and (2) a mature woman doesn't do that even if it elicits overreactions, and THAT tells you more than anything else.

It just seems to me that this really has nothing to do about getting a kindle back. More to do about finding an excuse to reengage. Otherwise, why not tell your husband that you need to all an old friend to get a borrowed item returned. Maybe she sent the threatening email. I know, it should not matter to me anymore. I am just looking for more signs of the dysfunction. I think that she may be getting bored with her husband. I think she thought marriage was going to fulfill her empty feeling about herself.

[Surg_Bear]

Could my ex already be devaluing her husband? She recently reached out to my ex friend ( my replacement) to ask for a kindle back that I bought her for her birthday a few years ago. She did this behind her husband's back. He found out about it and sent my ex friend a threatening email to leave his wife alone or else! Then she contacted my friend after that and told him not to worry and that her husband is just very possessive. First of all, this drama makes her feel important and seems to be planned by her. I may be reading too much into this but it does not sound good for new marriage does it?

You may be reading too much in to it but even if you are (1) that's what a relationship with someone like that does to your ability to think clearly about them, their actions and motivations and (2) a mature woman doesn't do that even if it elicits overreactions, and THAT tells you more than anything else.

It just seems to me that this really has nothing to do about getting a kindle back. More to do about finding an excuse to reengage. Otherwise, why not tell your husband that you need to all an old friend to get a borrowed item returned. Maybe she sent the threatening email. I know, it should not matter to me anymore. I am just looking for more signs of the dysfunction. I think that she may be getting bored with her husband. I think she thought marriage was going to fulfill her empty feeling about herself.

That is exactly right.  How valuable is a used Kindle?  Can you get one on eBay for $50? Less?

I don't know anyone who would choose to save a couple twenties in favor of emotionally attacking 2 people who have no financial or other interest in the Kindle.

A reasonable person would let the Kindle go, and maintain peace in the letting.

Surg_Bear

[rotiroti]

Mutt provided an excellent diagram of the triangulation that's going on

and to add to Surg_Bear's post - yep. I remember leaving behind bunch of my personal things behind. Can't put a price on freedom!

[strong9]

Mutt provided an excellent diagram of the triangulation that's going on

and to add to Surg_Bear's post - yep. I remember leaving behind bunch of my personal things behind. Can't put a price on freedom!

That diagram is gold. As I looked at it,  I realized I moved from rescuer to persecutor several times in the span of months with her family and my replacement completing the triumvirate depending on where I stood. This board never ceases to educate. Thanks, Mutt!

[apollotech]

One thing that I would add about the triangle is that the persecutor and rescuer can play dual roles as both the persecutor and rescuer at the same time, dependent upon how the victim has them in play. Sympathy (rescuing) can come to the victim from both when both are played as rescuers; they are played against one another. Secondly, the rescuer and/or persecutor don't have to be actual people. For example, God can play the role of rescuer quite well: "you did me wrong, but God has shown me your wicked ways." The triangle is complex. Whoever is receiving the sympathy is the victim.

[strong9]

But the BPD is always the victim, no?

[apollotech]

But the BPD is always the victim, no?

Strong9,

I am not sure if this question was directed at me. Yes, in the context of this thread, the pwBPD plays the victim role. In reality, we all triangulate to a degree. You'll see it on these boards when the pwBPD is blamed for everything and posters come in and provide sympathy; that's triangulation.

[Mutt]

Is this a good sign with newlywed couples?

Apollotech has a good point. Triangulation releases pressure from the relationship and it doesn't always have to be people, an example would be working long hours at work.

Yes as Apollotech pointed out we may be cast in different roles in a triangle and a pwBPD aren't always the victim. I would like to add that they most often cast themselves in either the victim or rescuer roles.

If we stay and hold the persecutor role for a substantial amount of time, the pwBPD will emotionally collapse.

[Surg_Bear]

I struggle with so much guilt for not buying her the ring she wanted so bad from me. I was THE ONE so she always said to me. She seemed so desperate to get married that my gut instinct was telling me that I was a mere object. I guess it may soothe my pain if I knew that Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, and George Clooney were also devalued. Maybe if that were the case I would not be so hard on myself. Believing it was less about me and more about her might help me recover.

You need to see what she was telling you with her words AND her behavior when you start down the road of regret:

1.  You were THE ONE

2.  She painted you black (this happens ring on, or ring off)

3.  She slept with and left you for your best friend (this happens with BPD, ring on, or ring off)

4.  She dropped him and went to the next guy who was the sucker who fell for it.

Guess what is happening to new husband?

Answer:  see Number one above, and read further.

The cycle will repeat and repeat, and repeat, ad nauseum.

You were LUCKY that you didn't put a ring on her finger.  How much did you save on the ring alone?  20k?  10K?  How much can you actually afford?  How much can you afford to lose?

Just look at her behavior as it is- not a symptom or evidence of dysfunction.  Her behavior is all you need to put the remorse where it belongs... . 

Love,

Surg_Bear

[swimjim]

I struggle with so much guilt for not buying her the ring she wanted so bad from me. I was THE ONE so she always said to me. She seemed so desperate to get married that my gut instinct was telling me that I was a mere object. I guess it may soothe my pain if I knew that Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, and George Clooney were also devalued. Maybe if that were the case I would not be so hard on myself. Believing it was less about me and more about her might help me recover.

You need to see what she was telling you with her words AND her behavior when you start down the road of regret:

1.  You were THE ONE

2.  She painted you black (this happens ring on, or ring off)

3.  She slept with and left you for your best friend (this happens with BPD, ring on, or ring off)

4.  She dropped him and went to the next guy who was the sucker who fell for it.

Guess what is happening to new husband?

Answer:  see Number one above, and read further.

The cycle will repeat and repeat, and repeat, ad nauseum.

You were LUCKY that you didn't put a ring on her finger.  How much did you save on the ring alone?  20k?  10K?  How much can you actually afford?  How much can you afford to lose?

Just look at her behavior as it is- not a symptom or evidence of dysfunction.  Her behavior is all you need to put the remorse where it belongs... . 

Love,

Surg_Bear

Thanks Surg_Bear. That is exactly what my therapist told me. I have a list taped to my refrigerator of her actions. He told me to focus less on the label (BPD) and more on just her actions alone. I have a tendency to want to piece a puzzle together so that it fits perfectly together into a BPD. My recovery stalls if a piece of the puzzle is missing. For example, she is not a cutter, has not been suicidal, nor a drug or alcohol abuser. However, everything else fits.

[HappyNihilist]

I think a lot of times what we perceive as an "alpha male" is someone who has buttloads of charisma, and is in some way successful (the particulars of 'successful' vary by what the culture/society values). Charismatic successful females are "strong women." I think the "strong woman" label is less misleading than the "alpha male" label (why not just "strong man"?) - after all, these people haven't typically fought and clawed and killed their way into some dominant position.

In the animal world - which has just as many alpha females as alpha males - the alphas typically gain their status through physical prowess. We can't have people running around fighting to the death all the time, though.  And, interestingly enough, anthropological studies consistently show that early humans lived in egalitarian societies rather than abiding by dominance hierarchy. The notion that dominance hierarchy is the 'natural state for humans' is actually a result of civilization. (Human history is full of irony.)

I think it's very important to have role models, mentors, and people you admire. I don't think it's entirely helpful to rank people and then feel somehow "less than" (or "more than" someone else because of that. Which is what terms like "alpha" and "dominance" imply.

I think the true Alpha Male is one who is confident enough to realize what's healthy, and what's not and act accordingly.

I agree... .this is strength and self-confidence and wisdom... .emotional maturity and health. This is a person who would be "immune" from a disordered relationship because they would never sustain one for any period of time.

And that's what we're striving for... .strength, self-confidence, wisdom, etc. So that we can attract healthy relationships into our life. It's not about being anyone other than who you are, or being better than anyone else. Comparing ourselves to others isn't helpful or fair for us.

swimjim, you said that you wished you had more "alpha traits." What specific traits do you wish you had?

And... .what traits of yours do you like? What do you find good and admirable about yourself?

I think you might surprise yourself when you stop trying to compare yourself to others and focus on what makes you "you." 

[swimjim]

I think a lot of times what we perceive as an "alpha male" is someone who has buttloads of charisma, and is in some way successful (the particulars of 'successful' vary by what the culture/society values). Charismatic successful females are "strong women." I think the "strong woman" label is less misleading than the "alpha male" label (why not just "strong man"?) - after all, these people haven't typically fought and clawed and killed their way into some dominant position.

In the animal world - which has just as many alpha females as alpha males - the alphas typically gain their status through physical prowess. We can't have people running around fighting to the death all the time, though.  And, interestingly enough, anthropological studies consistently show that early humans lived in egalitarian societies rather than abiding by dominance hierarchy. The notion that dominance hierarchy is the 'natural state for humans' is actually a result of civilization. (Human history is full of irony.)

Thanks Happynihilist. The alpha trait that I wish I had was loving myself enough to actually believe that my ex was truly not healthy for me, thus, believing I dodged the bullet by not marrying her. As it is, she turned the tables on me and split me black before I decided to leave her. I went from savior (white knight) to monster. It does not feel good to be thought of as a monster. You know what I mean? 

I think it's very important to have role models, mentors, and people you admire. I don't think it's entirely helpful to rank people and then feel somehow "less than" (or "more than" someone else because of that. Which is what terms like "alpha" and "dominance" imply.

I think the true Alpha Male is one who is confident enough to realize what's healthy, and what's not and act accordingly.

I agree... .this is strength and self-confidence and wisdom... .emotional maturity and health. This is a person who would be "immune" from a disordered relationship because they would never sustain one for any period of time.

And that's what we're striving for... .strength, self-confidence, wisdom, etc. So that we can attract healthy relationships into our life. It's not about being anyone other than who you are, or being better than anyone else. Comparing ourselves to others isn't helpful or fair for us.

swimjim, you said that you wished you had more "alpha traits." What specific traits do you wish you had?

And... .what traits of yours do you like? What do you find good and admirable about yourself?

I think you might surprise yourself when you stop trying to compare yourself to others and focus on what makes you "you." 

[swimjim]

I think a lot of times what we perceive as an "alpha male" is someone who has buttloads of charisma, and is in some way successful (the particulars of 'successful' vary by what the culture/society values). Charismatic successful females are "strong women." I think the "strong woman" label is less misleading than the "alpha male" label (why not just "strong man"?) - after all, these people haven't typically fought and clawed and killed their way into some dominant position.

In the animal world - which has just as many alpha females as alpha males - the alphas typically gain their status through physical prowess. We can't have people running around fighting to the death all the time, though.  And, interestingly enough, anthropological studies consistently show that early humans lived in egalitarian societies rather than abiding by dominance hierarchy. The notion that dominance hierarchy is the 'natural state for humans' is actually a result of civilization. (Human history is full of irony.)

Thanks Happynihilist. The alpha trait that I wish I had was loving myself enough to actually believe that my ex was truly not healthy for me, thus, believing I dodged the bullet by not marrying her. As it is, she turned the tables on me and split me black before I decided to leave her. I went from savior (white knight) to monster. It does not feel good to be thought of as a monster. You know what I mean? 

I think it's very important to have role models, mentors, and people you admire. I don't think it's entirely helpful to rank people and then feel somehow "less than" (or "more than" someone else because of that. Which is what terms like "alpha" and "dominance" imply.

I think the true Alpha Male is one who is confident enough to realize what's healthy, and what's not and act accordingly.

I agree... .this is strength and self-confidence and wisdom... .emotional maturity and health. This is a person who would be "immune" from a disordered relationship because they would never sustain one for any period of time.

And that's what we're striving for... .strength, self-confidence, wisdom, etc. So that we can attract healthy relationships into our life. It's not about being anyone other than who you are, or being better than anyone else. Comparing ourselves to others isn't helpful or fair for us.

swimjim, you said that you wished you had more "alpha traits." What specific traits do you wish you had?

And... .what traits of yours do you like? What do you find good and admirable about yourself?

I think you might surprise yourself when you stop trying to compare yourself to others and focus on what makes you "you." 

Thanks HappyNihilist. I used to have self esteem. She painted me black before I decided to leave her. I went from savior (white Knight) to monster. It does not feel good being viewed as a monster in her eyes. Can you understand? 

[fromheeltoheal]

I think a lot of times what we perceive as an "alpha male" is someone who has buttloads of charisma, and is in some way successful (the particulars of 'successful' vary by what the culture/society values). Charismatic successful females are "strong women." I think the "strong woman" label is less misleading than the "alpha male" label (why not just "strong man"?) - after all, these people haven't typically fought and clawed and killed their way into some dominant position.

In the animal world - which has just as many alpha females as alpha males - the alphas typically gain their status through physical prowess. We can't have people running around fighting to the death all the time, though.  And, interestingly enough, anthropological studies consistently show that early humans lived in egalitarian societies rather than abiding by dominance hierarchy. The notion that dominance hierarchy is the 'natural state for humans' is actually a result of civilization. (Human history is full of irony.)

Thanks Happynihilist. The alpha trait that I wish I had was loving myself enough to actually believe that my ex was truly not healthy for me, thus, believing I dodged the bullet by not marrying her. As it is, she turned the tables on me and split me black before I decided to leave her. I went from savior (white knight) to monster. It does not feel good to be thought of as a monster. You know what I mean? 

I think it's very important to have role models, mentors, and people you admire. I don't think it's entirely helpful to rank people and then feel somehow "less than" (or "more than" someone else because of that. Which is what terms like "alpha" and "dominance" imply.

I think the true Alpha Male is one who is confident enough to realize what's healthy, and what's not and act accordingly.

I agree... .this is strength and self-confidence and wisdom... .emotional maturity and health. This is a person who would be "immune" from a disordered relationship because they would never sustain one for any period of time.

And that's what we're striving for... .strength, self-confidence, wisdom, etc. So that we can attract healthy relationships into our life. It's not about being anyone other than who you are, or being better than anyone else. Comparing ourselves to others isn't helpful or fair for us.

swimjim, you said that you wished you had more "alpha traits." What specific traits do you wish you had?

And... .what traits of yours do you like? What do you find good and admirable about yourself?

I think you might surprise yourself when you stop trying to compare yourself to others and focus on what makes you "you." 

Thanks HappyNihilist. I used to have self esteem. She painted me black before I decided to leave her. I went from savior (white Knight) to monster. It does not feel good being viewed as a monster in her eyes. Can you understand? 

I understand jim.  You had an identity as a savior and you wrapped a lot of emotion into it, made it matter a great deal, and then that was yanked away, making you feel gutted and worthless; the devaluation phase of a relationship with a borderline is extremely painful, and the reason this site exists.  The goal now, moving forward, is to make what she thinks not matter and disconnect your identity from her and who you used to be to her.  It takes a while, but it's fruitful work, and opportunity to dig and see who you are at your core and who you want to be, which identities you want to feed and which you want to starve.  Like Happy asks, what makes you you?

[Mutt]

I understand swimjim how painful that is when we go from savior to monster.

You have a lot of good advice.

We can rebuild.

[swimjim]

I think a lot of times what we perceive as an "alpha male" is someone who has buttloads of charisma, and is in some way successful (the particulars of 'successful' vary by what the culture/society values). Charismatic successful females are "strong women." I think the "strong woman" label is less misleading than the "alpha male" label (why not just "strong man"?) - after all, these people haven't typically fought and clawed and killed their way into some dominant position.

In the animal world - which has just as many alpha females as alpha males - the alphas typically gain their status through physical prowess. We can't have people running around fighting to the death all the time, though.  And, interestingly enough, anthropological studies consistently show that early humans lived in egalitarian societies rather than abiding by dominance hierarchy. The notion that dominance hierarchy is the 'natural state for humans' is actually a result of civilization. (Human history is full of irony.)

Thanks Happynihilist. The alpha trait that I wish I had was loving myself enough to actually believe that my ex was truly not healthy for me, thus, believing I dodged the bullet by not marrying her. As it is, she turned the tables on me and split me black before I decided to leave her. I went from savior (white knight) to monster. It does not feel good to be thought of as a monster. You know what I mean? 

I think it's very important to have role models, mentors, and people you admire. I don't think it's entirely helpful to rank people and then feel somehow "less than" (or "more than" someone else because of that. Which is what terms like "alpha" and "dominance" imply.

I think the true Alpha Male is one who is confident enough to realize what's healthy, and what's not and act accordingly.

I agree... .this is strength and self-confidence and wisdom... .emotional maturity and health. This is a person who would be "immune" from a disordered relationship because they would never sustain one for any period of time.

And that's what we're striving for... .strength, self-confidence, wisdom, etc. So that we can attract healthy relationships into our life. It's not about being anyone other than who you are, or being better than anyone else. Comparing ourselves to others isn't helpful or fair for us.

swimjim, you said that you wished you had more "alpha traits." What specific traits do you wish you had?

And... .what traits of yours do you like? What do you find good and admirable about yourself?

I think you might surprise yourself when you stop trying to compare yourself to others and focus on what makes you "you." 

Thanks HappyNihilist. I used to have self esteem. She painted me black before I decided to leave her. I went from savior (white Knight) to monster. It does not feel good being viewed as a monster in her eyes. Can you understand? 

I understand jim.  You had an identity as a savior and you wrapped a lot of emotion into it, made it matter a great deal, and then that was yanked away, making you feel gutted and worthless; the devaluation phase of a relationship with a borderline is extremely painful, and the reason this site exists.  The goal now, moving forward, is to make what she thinks not matter and disconnect your identity from her and who you used to be to her.  It takes a while, but it's fruitful work, and opportunity to dig and see who you are at your core and who you want to be, which identities you want to feed and which you want to starve.  Like Happy asks, what makes you you?

thanks heel. Do you know what was really bizarre about my experience about getting split black? I finally offered her what she always begged / demanded, an engagement ring. Instead of telling me she no longer wanted it and to move on, she called the police and filed a false restraining order against me.  She took it all the way to court but I had it thrown out by proving she lied. I don't know how I can ever get over her doing that.

[fromheeltoheal]

thanks heel. Do you know what was really bizarre about my experience about getting split black? I finally offered her what she always begged / demanded, an engagement ring. Instead of telling me she no longer wanted it and to move on, she called the police and filed a false restraining order against me.  She took it all the way to court but I had it thrown out by proving she lied. I don't know how I can ever get over her doing that.

I don't know how I can ever get over her doing that.

Well, first by realizing that giving someone an engagement ring because they beg for or demand it is a lousy reason, something I might have done when lost in the fog too, and for contrast, the best reason to give someone a ring is because you love them and want to spend the rest of your life married to them.  Anything else is just a transaction.  And then the inconsistency: give her what she always asked for/begged for/demanded and she calls the cops?  What the heck?  You don't need someone like that in your life, and she is not someone who is going to help you maintain your sense of emotional well being, in fact just the opposite.

You probably know and agree with all that, but it's the emotional component that is the difficult one.  It really is about discovering what parts of you she touched and why, and pulling the hooks out, so you can build empowering identities based on your values and consistent external support.  You're doing fine man, hang in there.