Requiring effort to keep someone "black"

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

My ex was undiagnosed, but interestingly enough, he acknowledged (not in so many words) that he painted people black in order to detach from them.

My intro thread has more on this, but he was engaged to a woman before me.  She was supposedly diagnosed with AsPD.  He broke off the relationship with her in the IDENTICAL way that he broke it off with me, except she was a married woman in another state who apparently changed all of her contact info after the breakup.  Would he have recycled?  The world will never know.

This is the interesting part.  He told me that after she was gone and he knew for sure that he had cut her off completely, he missed her terribly.  He said that he had to read his journals to remember that she was evil.  In other words, he was returning to his earlier emotional dysregulation because that saved him emotional pain.  For an entire year and a half after that breakup, even in his relationship with me, he read obsessively about AsPD, posting copious articles about it on Facebook.  He said that he talked about his ex's AsPD on Facebook so much that people unfriended him over it.  He still talked about it on Facebook actively while he was in the relationship with me.

In fact, he talked about her constantly.  She took on the characteristics of a sort of fairy tale villain, who was just short of cooking him in the oven and eating him.  I don't recall one instance of a time that we were together that she didn't come up as a conversation topic at one point.

So, where am I going with this?  My ex was actually a decent person somewhere deep down, I think.  He had a hard time hating people and would even extend the olive branch to family members he had painted black (though they remained evil if they didn't accept it).  

My observation is that he seemed to need constant stimulation to keep someone "black" -- it wasn't a default state for him.  He needed to constantly read, or talk, or think, or engage with people to keep them black.  Remove the input/stimulation, and who knows what would have happened.  Painting people black was a time-consuming, effort-laden endeavor.

I say this in part because I have been doing a disappearing act on him and watching the results.  On the shared social media site that neither of us can avoid, I have intentionally erased my presence to all but the fact that I have an account, basically.  After the breakup, when I was very active, he was active on the site constantly, always trying to "beat" me to RSVPs, blocking me, joining new lists, etc.  In the week or so since my presence has disappeared, his behavior on the site has changed a great deal as well.  It's as if he was feeding off the sense that I was his nemesis, and now that I am clearly not, he doesn't seem to get much satisfaction out of being the first one out of the gate on the lists.

It makes me wonder . . . what strategies will he use to keep me black, and will they work?  He labeled me as "emotionally abusive" when he left me, but he only has one fight to go on to keep that in his mind.  His defense mechanisms seem pretty weak and thin . . .

Has anyone else seen this or experienced it?

[GreenEyedMonster]

My ex was undiagnosed, but interestingly enough, he acknowledged (not in so many words) that he painted people black in order to detach from them.

My intro thread has more on this, but he was engaged to a woman before me.  She was supposedly diagnosed with AsPD.  He broke off the relationship with her in the IDENTICAL way that he broke it off with me, except she was a married woman in another state who apparently changed all of her contact info after the breakup.  Would he have recycled?  The world will never know.

This is the interesting part.  He told me that after she was gone and he knew for sure that he had cut her off completely, he missed her terribly.  He said that he had to read his journals to remember that she was evil.  In other words, he was returning to his earlier emotional dysregulation because that saved him emotional pain.  For an entire year and a half after that breakup, even in his relationship with me, he read obsessively about AsPD, posting copious articles about it on Facebook.  He said that he talked about his ex's AsPD on Facebook so much that people unfriended him over it.  He still talked about it on Facebook actively while he was in the relationship with me.

In fact, he talked about her constantly.  She took on the characteristics of a sort of fairy tale villain, who was just short of cooking him in the oven and eating him.  I don't recall one instance of a time that we were together that she didn't come up as a conversation topic at one point.

So, where am I going with this?  My ex was actually a decent person somewhere deep down, I think.  He had a hard time hating people and would even extend the olive branch to family members he had painted black (though they remained evil if they didn't accept it).  

My observation is that he seemed to need constant stimulation to keep someone "black" -- it wasn't a default state for him.  He needed to constantly read, or talk, or think, or engage with people to keep them black.  Remove the input/stimulation, and who knows what would have happened.  Painting people black was a time-consuming, effort-laden endeavor.

I say this in part because I have been doing a disappearing act on him and watching the results.  On the shared social media site that neither of us can avoid, I have intentionally erased my presence to all but the fact that I have an account, basically.  After the breakup, when I was very active, he was active on the site constantly, always trying to "beat" me to RSVPs, blocking me, joining new lists, etc.  In the week or so since my presence has disappeared, his behavior on the site has changed a great deal as well.  It's as if he was feeding off the sense that I was his nemesis, and now that I am clearly not, he doesn't seem to get much satisfaction out of being the first one out of the gate on the lists.

It makes me wonder . . . what strategies will he use to keep me black, and will they work?  He labeled me as "emotionally abusive" when he left me, but he only has one fight to go on to keep that in his mind.  His defense mechanisms seem pretty weak and thin . . .

Has anyone else seen this or experienced it?

[LostGhost]

Very thought provoking question. I'm curious to hear what others say as well.

In my case, I think whatever reason my ex paints me black for, she needs constant reassurance that I am still continuing the same behaviours or actions that led to me being painted black in the first place, otherwise her mind starts to unravel and her perception of reality starts to crumble.

The first time she broke up with me she painted me black and told all her friends and family I was "jealous". Sorry, but I don't know any guy that wouldn't be "jealous" that his partner spent the night at her ex boyfriend's place and lied about it.

She got together with her ex and we didn't speak. I grieved and was in a lot of pain but the moment I moved on was the moment she started talking to me again. Then she'd drop little bits of information like she was going on vacation with him, or doing this or that with him, likely to get me to react in a "jealous" way to confirm that I lived up to her painted black perception of me in her mind. But when I responded calmly and casually, I was painted white fast. She'd say things like "I can see you've really changed", even though I hadn't changed as there was nothing to change in the first place.

I think if we act in the opposite way of how they anticipate or expect, maybe it helps us be painted white faster? I honestly don't know.

This time I don't know why I was painted black, so I don't know how to act to be painted white other than to just be myself.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Then she'd drop little bits of information like she was going on vacation with him, or doing this or that with him, likely to get me to react in a "jealous" way to confirm that I lived up to her painted black perception of me in her mind.

I think if we act in the opposite way of how they anticipate or expect, maybe it helps us be painted white faster? I honestly don't know.

YES!  I feel like I got baited by my ex a couple weeks ago with a letter he sent in the mail.  I feel like he wanted me to reply to it and confirm his suspicions that I am emotionally abusive, clingy, and unstable.  Of course I did not reply at all.  I feel like he has been doing the same thing on our social media site, hoping that I will confirm his suspicions.  I like how you worded it, that without the conflict, his "reality will crumble."  If I had to guess, I'd say that is precisely what is happening now.

My ex seems to need an ACTIVE conflict with the person he is painting black, and any communication I offer him at this point would be a thread to weave into his justifications.  I'm trying what you just mentioned -- acting the exact opposite way he'd expect -- just to see what happens.

[gameover]

I think it's probably about equivalent to the effort it takes us to keep in mind that they have BPD and aren't the 'emotionally responsible' person they seemed to be at times.  

But for their deepest attachments I don't think anyone stays black forever.  At least I noticed that a lot of people my BPDexgf had split black when I met her (including her ex she replaced me with) gradually became white over time (I think the strength of her attachment to me alleviated the threat they posed to her sense of self, if that makes sense).  I also think that's why recycles tend to happen after the pwBPD is already with the replacement--the ex partner poses very little immediate threat.  

But it's a pretty safe bet that if the pwBPD is on the fence about whether it is more convenient to their reality for you to be black or white, the slightest misstep will have you in the black (better to be safe than sorry!).  I also think that if you ignore the black and are totally unaffected by it, it becomes a matter of diminishing returns to keep you there (I imagine ASPDs are much better at that than Nons  ).

Always enjoy your post, GreenEyedMonster.  I hope your recovery's going well.

[GreenEyedMonster]

But it's a pretty safe bet that if the pwBPD is on the fence about whether it is more convenient to their reality for you to be black or white, the slightest misstep will have you in the black (better to be safe than sorry!).  

Always enjoy your post, GreenEyedMonster.  I hope your recovery's going well.

I think this first statement is very true.  Many people on this board wonder if pwBPD love or have real feelings.  The answer is yes, but their own feelings are inconvenient or painful for them, so the coping mechanism is what we see.  The BPD is not their "true self" but it is one aspect of it that can't be ignored.  I have no doubt that my ex still loves me, and that the four months he spent with me were probably the best of his life.  Whether this will ever matter again remains to be seen.

My ex almost reluctantly painted me black.  That's why I think he sent me the letter to provoke me -- fomenting conflict is essential to his keeping me there.  I think he thoroughly enjoyed it when I messed up and contacted mutual friends while upset and emotional.  It made him feel very justified and self-righteous.  If I had to guess, I'd say that he's probably actually getting frustrated with me for not behaving in a way that is consistent with the "black paint," because his real feelings are becoming more and more of a problem with him.

I interpret his silence on the web as being one of two things. 

-He found a replacement.  Not highly likely, and since he is only medium-functioning, it won't last long.  He's only made it past the third week of an in-person relationship once in his whole life, and that was with me.  His BPD symptoms show up very early in the relationship.

-He wasn't getting his "hit" of GEM bad behavior online, so it's no longer satisfying to look for it.  It annoys him that I'm being so good.

(My money's on the second one.)

And thanks, gameover 

[gameover]

Many people on this board wonder if pwBPD love or have real feelings.  The answer is yes, but their own feelings are inconvenient or painful for them, so the coping mechanism is what we see.  The BPD is not their "true self" but it is one aspect of it that can't be ignored.  I have no doubt that my ex still loves me, and that the four months he spent with me were probably the best of his life.  Whether this will ever matter again remains to be seen.

100% agreed.  I think trying to totally discount their feelings is an indication of our own black and white thinking/coping mechanisms.  Being able to hold their "true self" and their disordered self into a cohesive vision of our ex requires more mental effort, and can be especially painful in the short term; but, ultimately, I think it's the only healthy way to view them.

 

My ex almost reluctantly painted me black.  That's why I think he sent me the letter to provoke me -- fomenting conflict is essential to his keeping me there.  I think he thoroughly enjoyed it when I messed up and contacted mutual friends while upset and emotional.  It made him feel very justified and self-righteous.  If I had to guess, I'd say that he's probably actually getting frustrated with me for not behaving in a way that is consistent with the "black paint," because his real feelings are becoming more and more of a problem with him.

This.  In terms of Karpman triangles, he needs you to play the persecutor role so that he can cast himself as the victim.  When you refuse to play your role it brings the whole construction into question.  Though I don't think you'll ever be able to 'corner' him into any sustainable realization of his role in the failure of y'all's relationship.

 

[GreenEyedMonster]

I never saw or heard any evidence that his ex tried to stalk him either.  I found her on social media as well and she seemed like a decent person, actually.  All of her profile pictures were her wedding photo.  Something tells me her biggest "crime" was really going back to her husband.  He made a big deal out of "outsmarting" her and insinuating that she'd try to stalk him, but in truth the reverse seems to be more accurate, that he stalks her.

Here's the kicker, though.  If he missed her so much when she stopped playing the "villain" role, then he'll miss me.  I know he's sitting around hoping I'll screw up so that that doesn't have to happen.  But being good is pretty satisfying, I think  

He had a pretty big "black paint" supply with his ex, with a history of lots of fights, engulfment, drama, and actual emotional abuse. not to mention the fact that she was married and having an affair while using drugs.  I'm not so easy to smear.  I was really, really good to this guy, and we fought for a total of one evening in the whole relationship.  I also apologized profusely for everything I said to him.  There isn't a whole lot of Internet reading to prop him up on this one.

I've probably mentioned before, too, that if I criticized his ex, he'd defend her.  The black paint was thin and easily chipped.

[shatra]

GEM wrote--

I feel like I got baited by my ex a couple weeks ago with a letter he sent in the mail.  I feel like he wanted me to reply to it and confirm his suspicions that I am emotionally abusive, clingy, and unstable.

------ Yes, and also could be his projection-----is it actually him who is abusive, clingy and unstable?

Gameover wrote

But for their deepest attachments I don't think anyone stays black forever.  At least I noticed that a lot of people my BPDexgf had split black when I met her (including her ex she replaced me with) gradually became white over time (I think the strength of her attachment to me alleviated the threat they posed to her sense of self, if that makes sense).  I also think that's why recycles tend to happen after the pwBPD is already with the replacement--the ex partner poses very little immediate threat. 

----Can you explain this in more detail?  Yes, they often eventually split people white again... .how did the strength of her attachment to you compare to the threat they posed to her sense of self?

      Also,  I thought they recycle after finding a replacement because of splitting (the new "white" replacement contrasts with the "black" ex until the new one gets split black and the BP chases the ex who is now white)  and push pull (after pulling the replacement in, they push them away and try to pull the ex back in)... .can you describe what you mean by recycles happening after replacement since the ex poses little threat?

[shatra]

GEM wrote

I'm not so easy to smear.  I was really, really good to this guy, and we fought for a total of one evening in the whole relationship.  I also apologized profusely for everything I said to him.

-----So what is he painting you black as? Or is he not specific. I find that even terrific, decent people who treat them well will, sooner or later, be dunked in the black paint, discarded and then pulled back in by them.

------Thoughts about why they split people white again----

===They begin to miss them, and that feeling doesn't coincide with the traits they split the person black with, so they split and change the "facts" into nicer traits, to match their new feeling

====They need the person for something, so they suddenly paint them white again

-----They begin to recall the good times, and then paint them white again

-----The replacement or someone in their life upsets them, gets painted black, and the BPD can't handle not having a white rescuer, so he paints us white again

----I don't really ever see them as having all good or all bad people around them-----there always has to be someone seen as bad and at least one person seen as good

[myself]

The last time I heard from my ex, she wanted to know if I hated her. She also said she missed me and thinks of me often. Was it fishing for another recycle? Could be, but I wasn't going to go there anymore. We were done so I've just kept moving on. I think it was mostly a way for her to let herself off the hook. If I answered "No", it would have been a big relief to her (but am not sure how deeply she would have reconciled the fact that I was 'good' again). If I had answered "Yes", it would have definitely helped her keep me painted in a negative light. She spoke of her exes many many times throughout our relationship (and I'm on that rotating list now for sure), and it was always in the form of they did her wrong, not the other way around. Even with the people who sounded nice with her, it was "He was boring, cold, secretly creepy, etc." It seems that when the disorder stacks the deck the way it does, too many of the cards get ruined and the reality gets blurred. Enough so that the pwBPD chooses the easier way out (blaming the other/seeing them as 'bad' instead of facing themselves and dealing with the ways they've painted themselves into corners in their lives.

[GreenEyedMonster]

GEM wrote--

I feel like I got baited by my ex a couple weeks ago with a letter he sent in the mail.  I feel like he wanted me to reply to it and confirm his suspicions that I am emotionally abusive, clingy, and unstable.

------ Yes, and also could be his projection-----is it actually him who is abusive, clingy and unstable?

----Can you explain this in more detail?  Yes, they often eventually split people white again... .how did the strength of her attachment to you compare to the threat they posed to her sense of self?

   

It might be projection AND a convenient reason to paint me black, the two aren't mutually exclusive.  I personally think that I activated his engulfment fears, so he really did perceive me as clingy.  The fact that he himself is pretty clingy and would have reacted the same way, well, that's neither here nor there, or is it?

I think that the reason that someone is no longer a threat when the pwBPD has moved into a new relationship is that the stakes are low.  The old partner is no longer a necessary source of validation, so if the pwBPD is rejected by them, they can just say, "Oh well, his/her loss.  I have this great new boy/girlfriend now."  That person is no longer THE ONE, with whom the relationship MUST work or the whole world will come crashing down.

[GreenEyedMonster]

GEM wrote

I'm not so easy to smear.  I was really, really good to this guy, and we fought for a total of one evening in the whole relationship.  I also apologized profusely for everything I said to him.

He said my anxiety disorder made me emotionally abusive, and I needed to see a therapist.

[GreenEyedMonster]

My ex just joined a singles group online that I'm already a part of.  BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I'm sure that he can see that I'm a member, too.  Knowing him, he checked.

Is he trying to provoke me again?  Re-engagement attempt?  :)rama, drama, drama?  Bad GEM?

This is too funny.

Someone is feeling lonely tonight.

[ScorpioLaw]

  So you're saying even people wBPD are humans? Wow!  

I think this should be stickied, because a lot of whT I read on this part of the board are full of masked resentment, disguised as sound advice.

It reminds me an NA meeting, this board. "Oh hey I'm so sorry, blah blah".

I think A TON of people here who are supposed to be, "Nons" paint a ton of things black. The way they say, "it's the mental illness", for one.

The way people say, "They don't love, like we do. They never loved you", is also full of crap.

Although my ex probably hates my gets now I have NO doubt that she loved me at times. The only difference is that it came and went quicker with her compared to me. My love also came and went, but the only difference is I don't change my thoughts to fit my feelings.

[hurting300]

GEM wrote

I'm not so easy to smear.  I was really, really good to this guy, and we fought for a total of one evening in the whole relationship.  I also apologized profusely for everything I said to him.

-----So what is he painting you black as? Or is he not specific. I find that even terrific, decent people who treat them well will, sooner or later, be dunked in the black paint, discarded and then pulled back in by them.

------Thoughts about why they split people white again----

===They begin to miss them, and that feeling doesn't coincide with the traits they split the person black with, so they split and change the "facts" into nicer traits, to match their new feeling

====They need the person for something, so they suddenly paint them white again

-----They begin to recall the good times, and then paint them white again

-----The replacement or someone in their life upsets them, gets painted black, and the BPD can't handle not having a white rescuer, so he paints us white again

----I don't really ever see them as having all good or all bad people around them-----there always has to be someone seen as bad and at least one person seen as good

can you explain why they would completely disappear without a trace? And the night before they do vanish they make your lunch, have sex with you and plan a wedding? And when I say vanish she left without a word... .

[GreenEyedMonster]

 So you're saying even people wBPD are humans? Wow!  

I think this should be stickied, because a lot of whT I read on this part of the board are full of masked resentment, disguised as sound advice.

It reminds me an NA meeting, this board. "Oh hey I'm so sorry, blah blah".

I think A TON of people here who are supposed to be, "Nons" paint a ton of things black. The way they say, "it's the mental illness", for one.

The way people say, "They don't love, like we do. They never loved you", is also full of crap.

Although my ex probably hates my gets now I have NO doubt that she loved me at times. The only difference is that it came and went quicker with her compared to me. My love also came and went, but the only difference is I don't change my thoughts to fit my feelings.

THANK YOU!  Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you.  I think pwBPD love just like we do, but they need perpetual, consistent input to maintain their feelings.  I do not think that my ex perpetuated some kind of "ruse" to get me and then revealed his true self.  

I think that object constancy is a huge issue -- pwBPD need obvious evidence in front of them that you love them, all the time, or problems happen.  Similarly, to keep you black, they need obvious evidence in front of them that you are bad.  This is why my ex is always reading websites about AsPD and how bad it makes people, so that he can keep his other ex black.  It is a project and a commitment.  

This is why I strongly suspect that my ex will not be able to keep me black.  At first, after the breakup, he acted like I was stalking him.  I made a point of disappearing for a while.  Then, two nights ago, he went online to the last social media site we share and joined the same lists I joined three days ago, probably so that he can see where I am.  (Incidentally, my profile is public, and he didn't join some social lists that I'm *not* on.)  One of them is a list only for single people, so he pretty much revealed that he doesn't have a replacement.  He knows that this is completely visible to me.  This is strange behavior for a man who treated me like a stalker, no?  The "input" that I am giving him is that I couldn't care less if I see him again, and he is reacting by making sure that he knows where he can see me again.  In my opinion, his behavior shows that when my "input" changed, his view of me also changed.  And if he wants to know where I am so badly that he will reveal himself so brazenly online, I can only imagine that I am less triggering and perhaps on the fringes of being painted white.

BPD, from my observation, is not a disorder of lacking feelings.  It is a disorder where feelings are very transient and conditional.

[joeramabeme]

  So you're saying even people wBPD are humans? Wow!  

I think this should be stickied, because a lot of whT I read on this part of the board are full of masked resentment, disguised as sound advice.

It reminds me an NA meeting, this board. "Oh hey I'm so sorry, blah blah".

I think A TON of people here who are supposed to be, "Nons" paint a ton of things black. The way they say, "it's the mental illness", for one.

The way people say, "They don't love, like we do. They never loved you", is also full of crap.

Although my ex probably hates my gets now I have NO doubt that she loved me at times. The only difference is that it came and went quicker with her compared to me. My love also came and went, but the only difference is I don't change my thoughts to fit my feelings.

ScorpioLaw, Applauding your post here.  I have been guilty of the very same that you mention and I think it is a caution all of us have to watch for, to over generalize or split our expwBPD traits. 

I think there are two considerations at play here.  First, how do you talk about black and white extremes in shades of gray.  It can be done, but the tendency is to say this is black and this is white.  Secondly, with the internal pain that many of us feel and lack of understanding of BPD; we too need to split our own thoughts and feelings to understand and catalog events and behaviors that feel so foreign and lead to such degrees of discomfort.  They just don’t fit in our mind so it is easier to attribute meaning to these experiences that may not be entirely accurate.  I think of these uncatalogued items as quills in my mind that need to be dulled and the pain avoided and dealt with as best as possible.  (Perhaps this is a glimpse into some of the processes that a pwBPD traits goes through to work with their own hurts)

This is why, IMO, it is essential to read the literature and lessons about BPD while working through the feelings.  It takes time to comprehend what BPD is.  Not easy to do when you are emotionally smeared all over the road and bleeding and all the while your ex is telling you that it is all your fault and they appear to be un-phased by it all.

I am someone who has had, and is still working through, a deep level of denial about my pwBPD’s disorder and I have stated what you wrote here on various posts of my own.  There is a thin line between denial and understanding that can be easily blurred.  Personally, I am a very cerebral and have a tendency to process my feelings through my intellect; if I can understand it then I do not have to feel it.  Learning and feeling has been a toggling process that hopefully begins to join my head and heart.  During this process, I can swing out to some pretty far conclusions.

So, after 6+ months I have come up with she does love me, she did love me, had done many hurtful things as well as many wonderful things but is unaware of her own emotional constructs and how they impact her relational behaviors that created our demise and my pain over it.

Hope this helps to know that someone else can relate to what you say and encourages to read about BPD and find your own reasons for becoming involved with someone like this.  As NA teaches, we are responsible for ourselves and need to take ownership of the same to become free.

Joe

[oor_wullie]

THANK YOU!  Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you.  I think pwBPD love just like we do, but they need perpetual, consistent input to maintain their feelings.  I do not think that my ex perpetuated some kind of "ruse" to get me and then revealed his true self.  

i've really enjoyed this thread. it's interesting and challenging. thought-provoking.

first, i wanted to say that i feel you're spending too much time thinking about him. what you've described of him, and the company he keeps, he sounds like (and i'm sorry to have to say this) a thoroughly unpleasant person overall. anyone, BPD or no, who invests so much energy in hating people isn't a good person.

but i think you must know that, because that's the way YOU describe him. he's not the kind of person i'd ever want to know - there are far better people in the world. i wouldn't waste my time on this one.

conversely, just by reading your posts, you come across as a thoughtful, loving, VERY caring, very intelligent person. you are someone i'd definitely want to get to know, and be friends with. you're worthwhile. any energy i expended getting to know you, and being your friend, would, i know, be reciprocated, and would be worth investing. conversely, with your ex, and with my ex too, ALL the energy i put in would be involved in managing that persons constant problems, constant tendency to paint me black, constant need to create friction and problems.

you've even proposed here a great many interesting, but seriously effortful, mechanisms to thwart his BPD tendencies.

seriously, why bother?

i'm projecting a little. "why bother?" was the question i finally found i could no longer answer. i could not justify the effort required to keep my relationship together, and the EXTREME amount it was costing me. and that's not even to touch on all the more positive things i could be doing instead.

i think the same is true for you.

to provide my own answer to your question of the strategies used to keep us black. well, in my case there were no limits. she would do anything to maintain her image of me. most important to her was having her version of the truth reflected by others. so she would tell lies to her friends, family, and even work colleagues.

at one point she told lies to one of my bosses, potentially resulting in my getting fired. it didn't come to that. but when i confronted her about it, she made out that it was my fault she'd "had" to do that. the lie she told was simply a misunderstanding, so i should forgive her. never mind that it nearly got me fired.

she went to the police when she saw me on the street a couple of times, deciding that that meant i was stalking her (a familiar theme on these boards). she involved her friends and her father in that accusation.

she upped the ante over and over to maintain her image of me. and in every case she involved other people, ensuring that everyone around her could see how much she was suffering, and how awful i was. and all this was long after she had dumped me.

then, after 4 years, she came back to me, of course! at that point, she had the impossible task of juggling all the lies she'd told people about me, while being with me, and not telling people she was with me, AND not apologising for one single lie she'd told, or offering any sort of explanation as to how i could be guilty of all that bad stuff and yet she apparently now loved me again with all her heart.

so here's the last thing. i really don't believe they are capable of love. believing that they loved us truly, keeps us a prisoner of their memory. it makes it harder to forget, because we end up in a perpetual circle of "they loved me, but then they did all these horrible things, and now they're gone, but they loved me". and we value that love, and we try to understand their behaviour in the context of someone who loved us, and nothing fits. we never get closure.

i have been loved by someone who didn't have BPD. and it feels completely different. even tho that relationship ended too, it felt like a natural end. it made sense. and her behaviour towards me afterwards made sense. i know she loved me. i know she still cares about me. i got over it and i moved on fairly quickly.

the BPD thing? i obsess about her all the time. i cannot get her out of my head. the horror she visited upon me nearly killed me, and has likely ruined me forever - i'll never love again. none of that is normal. and that cannot be the result of someone who loved me. it's more like the result of someone who hated me.

and there's this. people who love someone don't do those things to them. they just don't. i don't feel it's ever helpful to try and separate their BPD behaviours from their "normal" behaviours. it's ALL them. the BPD doesn't come and go, it's intrinsic to their entire selves. externally, they may sometimes present as "normal", but i truly believe that internally, their thought processes are constantly somewhere on this black/white cycle.

neither the white, nor the black, is a functional way of relating to people. painted white is still just paint. it's not real. they paint us white, and then love the paint. not us. and it's not love - you can't love an image of someone that you've constructed. it's an image. paint. that they put over us. they love that, not us. that's why they can paint us black and move to hate in an instant.

but at least the hate isn't real either. but neither one of these images is who we ARE. so how can they love us? they can't even SEE us.

my exBPD hated me for two years after she dumped me the first time. hated me enough to go to the police. the POLICE! that is utterly extraordinary in my life, and yet she did that. tried to get me fired. and then after 2 years, according to her, she missed me. started seeing me everywhere (but now, instead of interpreting this as stalking, she simply saw it as a sign that we were meant to be together). and when we bumped into each other again, now 4 years after we'd last been together, she's suddenly so sure about me and us that (after just a couple of days) she jumps into bed with me and leaves her husband, despite the fact she'd only just quit her job as part of a plan to move with her husband to another city. now she loves ME, and i'm the best thing that ever happened to her. fast forward another year, and i was a prison, smothering her, making her feel guilty with my questions (never answered) about her past negative behaviour. after a week of her avoiding contact with me, and then denying that she was avoiding me, i broke all contact. she never once tried to contact me again - didn't make one single effort to get back with me, or try to apologise, win me back, whatever. nothing.

that's not love. but it's a common story. i think we're selling ourselves WAY short by imaging that these behaviours constitute love. i don't believe they do.

finally, towards the end, i'd started to notice that she had never once looked me in the eye when she said "i love you". and she almost never said it unprompted (almost always in reply to me saying "i love you" - i got a lot of "me toos".) i once even said to her - "you never look me in the eye when you say it". so she looked me in the eye, started to say "i love you", and then looked down as the words came out. she couldn't even pretend convincingly.

believing in the love keeps us on the hook. i realised that the love she pretended to feel was a part of the game she played with me. it was agonising to discard the idea she loved me, but it's something that i've had to embrace.

i'm sorry this turned negative. i think i just want to say that i hope you stop thinking about him. i don't think he's worth your time or energy. you have so much more to give, and he isn't a worthwhile person to give all that to. not even close. you clearly have an awful lot to give, and you should give it to someone who can give you the same. don't accept any compromises. you're really quite fabulous.

[Pretty Woman]

You could be Mother Teresa and they still will smear the crap out of you.

That is the hardest part... .people thinking you are crazy and abusive when all you tried to do was rationalize and communicate with your ex, like an adult. I work with my ex's sister and she has thretened to go to HR if I so much as look at her.

She told me this a year into my dating her sister. It's quite terrifying being I have a great job... .lucky for me I am over her technically... .still this is not something I want out in my workplace. It's very embarassing.

Why her sister who was once my friend would be threatened by me... .when I rarely even see her at work: Smear Campaign.

They are so dangerous. File false rape charges and restraining orders. Once you come out of the fog you start to see how lucky you were to get out and it wasn't worse.

PW

[enlighten me]

I think it all comes down to justifying why the relationship failed. As they cant take the blame they have to place it on you. The less you gave them cause to blame you for the failure the harder they have to paint you black. The more they tell people the more real it becomes. A bit like when someone tells a story over and over again until they become the character involved or where there, when in reality they were just passing on the tale that they had been told.

I don't know if it is hard work for them what I do know was that it was hard work for my ex wife to keep track of who supposedly did what and she used to mix it up all the time. Which was confusing for me at the time but now seems comical.

[ScorpioLaw]

  A lot of people here do the same thing, though. They justify the disorder as the reason for everything.

It's so much easier for anyone to paint things, and to look for excuses on why something happened but the truth is everything is not as simple as we would like it to be.

The disorder is just a part of a larger picture.

Also lets face it. We've all had a part in the relationships demise. One way or an other. I think it's unfair to not take blame for our actions.

To much support is thrown out on this board. I don't know, but everybody seems to validate to the extreme.

Anyways my point is I've seen a lot of questionable things said that aren't really the truth. To sit there and say people with BPD don't love or feel like us is obviously wrong. (Not talking about you OP) it's just amazing people even doubt it. Some are confusing sociopaths with other disorders. I think we tend to forget people can definitely have more than one tendancy.

You can certainly tell when someone is truly in love with you. IMO if you didn't doubt it in the moment then it was real. We all have ways to deal with our relationships and situations. It's easy to forget the good in people after You've been hurt.

[saintgrey]

  A lot of people here do the same thing, though. They justify the disorder as the reason for everything.

It's so much easier for anyone to paint things, and to look for excuses on why something happened but the truth is everything is not as simple as we would like it to be.

The disorder is just a part of a larger picture.

Also lets face it. We've all had a part in the relationships demise. One way or an other. I think it's unfair to not take blame for our actions.

To much support is thrown out on this board. I don't know, but everybody seems to validate to the extreme.

Anyways my point is I've seen a lot of questionable things said that aren't really the truth. To sit there and say people with BPD don't love or feel like us is obviously wrong. (Not talking about you OP) it's just amazing people even doubt it. Some are confusing sociopaths with other disorders. I think we tend to forget people can definitely have more than one tendancy.

You can certainly tell when someone is truly in love with you. IMO if you didn't doubt it in the moment then it was real. We all have ways to deal with our relationships and situations. It's easy to forget the good in people after You've been hurt.

I think its because its easier to move on that way, yesterday was terrible day for me because of something i found out but reading your post i have no doubt that she loved me on her own way before all this 

[shatra]

hurting wrote---

can you explain why they would completely disappear without a trace? And the night before they do vanish they make your lunch, have sex with you and plan a wedding? And when I say vanish she left without a word...

----It could be that a "little bit" of contact with you would bring up stronger feelings... .so to avoid missing you or avoid pain, they block you out and leave without a trace.  Treating you great one day and vanishing the next sounds like splitting and push-pull

[shatra]

What's up with the false restraining orders and accusations of stalking the BPs make? Luckily I never experienced that, but a few people on this thread mentioned that... .why does the BPD do that?

[saintgrey]

What's up with the false restraining orders and accusations of stalking the BPs make? Luckily I never experienced that, but a few people on this thread mentioned that... .why does the BPD do that?

My ex accused me after silent treatment, i think they use the silent treatment to get a bad reaction from the non to wash their hands and thats when stalking accusations start but they never mention that the vanished few days ago without saying a word not even a fight.

They start a new relationship but never tell this new person they have unfinished business and thats when the smear campaign start.

[gameover]

What's up with the false restraining orders and accusations of stalking the BPs make? Luckily I never experienced that, but a few people on this thread mentioned that... .why does the BPD do that?

My ex accused me after silent treatment, i think they use the silent treatment to get a bad reaction from the non to wash their hands and thats when stalking accusations start but they never mention that the vanished few days ago without saying a word not even a fight.

They start a new relationship but never tell this new person they have unfinished business and thats when the smear campaign start.

Spot on.  The only way to 'beat' the silent treatment is to ignore it.  The more nonreactive you can remain, the less ammunition/motive they have against you.

[GreenEyedMonster]

This is why, IMO, it is essential to read the literature and lessons about BPD while working through the feelings.  It takes time to comprehend what BPD is.  Not easy to do when you are emotionally smeared all over the road and bleeding and all the while your ex is telling you that it is all your fault and they appear to be un-phased by it all.

I am someone who has had, and is still working through, a deep level of denial about my pwBPD’s disorder and I have stated what you wrote here on various posts of my own.  There is a thin line between denial and understanding that can be easily blurred.  Personally, I am a very cerebral and have a tendency to process my feelings through my intellect; if I can understand it then I do not have to feel it.  Learning and feeling has been a toggling process that hopefully begins to join my head and heart. 

I definitely identify with this statement.  I process things through my head first.  If I can understand why this man does what he does, I can eventually accept him for what he is and make a good decision about the role he will play in my life, if any.  Explaining his behavior and justifying it are not the same thing.

If other people need hate and anger to get through their struggles, that is their business, but that is not how I roll.  I don't need to combat my negative emotions with more emotion.  I think it is possible to feel compassion and understanding for someone with a mental illness without letting that person do damage to your life.  I do not need to characterize my ex as an arch-fiend to be able to move on, nor do I need to believe he's a saint to take him back. 

It is easy to assume that every person who treats us badly intends to do so.  That may be true for other disorders like NPD or especially AsPD, but I think there are definitely those with BPD who wish they were different, and regret the harm they cause others.  But it's a mental illness, which means that wishing you were different isn't enough to fix it.

[ScorpioLaw]

 I think at the end of the day it depends on the person. That's why there is such a wide variety.

My ex DEFINITELY has a wish that she could be like everyone else. It was always sad to me. When I look back now I realize Even during the end of the relationship I could tell she wished things were different. She kept telling me she loved me but it was definitely not the truth. I think in the end I pushed her away after that switch flipped too. For both our sakes.

If we didn't break up I would have never figured out the last piece of the puzzle to why she does what she does. By then I got the answers to late. The worse thing I ever did was start treating her like a normal person. So looking back I know I could've done many things differently. I think my ex and I both reacted in our ways.

The only difference is I know my actions at my worse were wrong. I might have dug my own grave, but she buried me.

[balletomane]

  A lot of people here do the same thing, though. They justify the disorder as the reason for everything.

It's so much easier for anyone to paint things, and to look for excuses on why something happened but the truth is everything is not as simple as we would like it to be.

The disorder is just a part of a larger picture.

Also lets face it. We've all had a part in the relationships demise. One way or an other. I think it's unfair to not take blame for our actions.

To much support is thrown out on this board. I don't know, but everybody seems to validate to the extreme.

Anyways my point is I've seen a lot of questionable things said that aren't really the truth. To sit there and say people with BPD don't love or feel like us is obviously wrong. (Not talking about you OP) it's just amazing people even doubt it. Some are confusing sociopaths with other disorders. I think we tend to forget people can definitely have more than one tendancy.

You can certainly tell when someone is truly in love with you. IMO if you didn't doubt it in the moment then it was real. We all have ways to deal with our relationships and situations. It's easy to forget the good in people after You've been hurt.

I found a few other forums like this one before signing up to bpdfamily, but the reason I feel comfortable here is that almost everyone posts with compassion about their BPD partners. I have seen people elsewhere not even referring to them as people with BPD, just 'BPDs' as though they're personality disorders on legs. It has always been important to me to stress that my ex is ill, but he is not the sum of his illness - he has genuine good qualities, he has faults and weaknesses that are nothing to do with BPD, he's a real three-dimensional person. Sometimes I think people are tempted to blame everything on BPD in order to deal with their own pain, or to cope with confusion. I get tempted to believe that my ex never really loved me because the bewilderment at how someone could love me and then do this to me is just too strong - the logical explanation is that he never really cared. But BPD isn't logical, so I shouldn't go expecting it to make sense.

[hurting300]

hurting wrote---

can you explain why they would completely disappear without a trace? And the night before they do vanish they make your lunch, have sex with you and plan a wedding? And when I say vanish she left without a word...

----It could be that a "little bit" of contact with you would bring up stronger feelings... .so to avoid missing you or avoid pain, they block you out and leave without a trace.  Treating you great one day and vanishing the next sounds like splitting and push-pull

she stalked me... .