Has anyone successfully presented evidence of BPD in court?

[aparenti]

What do you do if your partner displays obvious borderline behaviors but is undiagnosed?

I tried to present numerous examples of borderline behaviors during my 730 evaluation but they were ignored or dismissed and the psychological testing was inconclusive.

What kinds of behaviors are relevant to the court in making a custody decision and what is the best way to present this information to the court outside of a 730 evaluation?

[livednlearned]

Hi aperenti,

If you haven't read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a NPD/BPD Spouse by Bill Eddy, now is a good time to order it. There are Kindle versions you can download to your computer and begin reading immediately. Read it several times if you can.

Documentation is everything. If you can back up your claims that your wife's behavior has a harmful effect on the kids, that is gold. It's more important than a diagnosis. Courts are largely unequipped to make sense of mental illness. Even if you prove your wife is BPD, you still have to get an expert witness in court to explain why that's a bad thing. Lots of people have mental illness -- even the judge could have a mental illness, or have loved ones with mental illnesses. The problem with someone who is mentally ill is when they don't follow treatment AND it engenders the safety of the kids in some way (whether through abuse, neglect, etc.). What you need to do in court is show a pattern of behavior. That's why documentation is so important.

Lesson 3 on this board has some useful collective feedback from members of this board: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239547.msg1331886#msg1331886

You might want to check out Lesson 4 on custody evaluations too.

The golden rule for me, which eventually worked in my favor, was to consistently focus on my son and not on N/BPD. N/BPDx would send in the tanks and obliterate me with abusive language and threats and accusations, both in email (documentation) and in court. Only once did I allow myself to engage him -- and it's when he accused me of being angry. I simply said, "You have done everything in your power to prevent S14 from receiving services at school he is legally entitled to, and an entire team of professionals agree he would benefit from. Yes, I'm angry."

Meanwhile, I documented everything. And I mean everything. I didn't have to say anything about him (hearsay) because I had binders filled with emails, and a log I kept for three years, and an impeccable calendar with every appointment, incident, interaction. I never needed to use the recordings I had -- my lawyer was nervous about that.

You have to walk a very fine line -- showing the court why you should receive favorable custody without looking like you're trying to wreck the relationship between your kids and their mom, meanwhile gathering the evidence to show why that relationship is a danger to the emotional and psychological and maybe physical health of your kids.

This is not a sprint, it's a marathon.

Pace yourself.

[maxen]

hi aparenti. full disclosure, i didn't have to face custody issues. however, a court will be interested in behaviors, not whether or not behaviors are borderline behaviors. livednlearned has given examples, such as neglect or abuse. these could be expressions of a number of disorders (narcissism, borderlinism, alcohol) and the court may not care what the cause is. i know that's galling: i wanted almost to shout from the roof "look, she's disordered" after my exw lost it. but yes, document everything. it's an awful place to be in, and i'm sorry for what you're facing. do you have a lawyer?

[ForeverDad]

I was bluntly told by my Custody Evaluator at our first session, "I'm not here to diagnose anyone, my task is to make recommendations to the court regarding custody and parenting."  He is a child psychologist and my lawyer told me that the court had never gone against his recommendation.  His report was relatively brief, a mere 11 pages, but it was excellent.  Some here have gotten virtual books back and a wide range of quality from spot-on tip-top to biased, manipulated, abysmal.  My CE's summary could be boiled down to three sentences, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... .Mother's temporary custody should end immediately... .If Shared Parenting is attempted and fails then Father should get Custody... ."

While it would be helpful to have a diagnosis, it often can be meaningless unless you can demonstrate how it applies to your case, in short, how the children are impacted.  For example, let's suppose your spouse is an alcoholic.  You proclaim to the court, "See!  Here's the diagnosis!"  The court looks back and says, "So what?  The bailiff is an alcoholic, so is someone on staff and my brother in law too.  More to the point, Are the children being abused - hit while drunk or enraged?  Neglected - starved and without adequate food or clothing while passed out?  Endangered - is the driver drunk with the kids in the car?"

So our overall theme is that a diagnosis may be nice, if you have one then great, but it takes more, you need to document how the children are impacted.

Along this theme, take the time to separate out the adult behaviors (screaming, threatening you, etc) from the parenting behaviors (hitting the kids, screaming at the kids, driving drunk with them, etc).  List everything but give emphasis and priority to the children, court will probably not care that much about what you suffer.

In my case, to my knowledge my ex was never diagnosed.  But in late 2005 she had temp custody and I had alternate weekends.  Now in late 2015 I have full custody and majority time during the school year.  It was all accomplished based on her poor behaviors.  Yes, it was slow, it took expensive and time consuming baby step improvements, but it did improve.

By the way, when first separating and getting the initial temp order, try to get the best temp order you can get.  All too often they morph into final decrees, the judge assuming "well, it must be working if it's lasted this long, let's keep it as is and not upset the children."  Don't listen to a lawyer saying, "Shh, don't talk, we'll fix it later."  Later could be years later.  For many of us a divorce can take 2 years plus or minus.  There were at least two opportunities during my 23.5 month divorce for the judge to improve the order and fix ongoing issues, once from the court's own Parenting investigator's report and once from the Custody Evaluator's report, but the court never changed a word in the temp order.  All changes were basic improvements but it took 4 orders in all (2006, 2008, 2011, 2013) to get to something that was manageable.  Son was 3 when we separated and 11 with the latest order.  In other words, his most formative years were spent constantly in and out of court.

Not to make light of it but I believe that if there is a murder then the court may be seriously interested in a diagnosis.  Otherwise, put your chips down on documenting the behaviors that concern the court.

[Indyan]

If you can back up your claims that your wife's behavior has a harmful effect on the kids, that is gold.

I was going to say just this.

I went to court 2 weeks ago.

The only thing my L said to the judge orally was "this man has psychiatric problems".

He described in his report all the major events until uBPDh ran away from our home and after, and insisted on the effect on the kids and me. A terrified mum is not what's best for her kids.

BPDh had testimonies from his family and my "replacement" whereas I had none from my family (and don't have a bf).

I had testimonies from friends, a collegue at work (saying I received threatening texts), a priest (describing BPD's tyrannical attitude during a mediated weekend), my D11's psychologist (saying she's scared of her stepdad and telling stories of what happened) and my doctor (regarding my degraded health). Also my D's dad who testified I'm "a good mum" and that he saw D11 and me very scared after BPD's visit.

I think it's important to get testimonies from neutral parties, not just family.

[Indyan]

Meanwhile, I documented everything. And I mean everything. I didn't have to say anything about him (hearsay) because I had binders filled with emails, and a log I kept for three years, and an impeccable calendar with every appointment, incident, interaction. I never needed to use the recordings I had -- my lawyer was nervous about that.

You have to walk a very fine line -- showing the court why you should receive favorable custody without looking like you're trying to wreck the relationship between your kids and their mom, meanwhile gathering the evidence to show why that relationship is a danger to the emotional and psychological and maybe physical health of your kids.

This is not a sprint, it's a marathon.

Pace yourself.

Thanks for this very useful piece of advice I will also benefit from.

I'm quite reassured to see that's what I started doing. I'm in the same sort of mindset you're describing.

I am not angry at him, I don't hate him. For me he's "just" a very sick person. I showed my kids and I needed protection, and that BPDx is ill and probably needs treatment (I didn't mention that). His behaviour speaks for itself.

[enlighten me]

I have been pondering this myself.

I have a situation of where I may end up in mediation with my ex wife and if that doesn't go her way then maybe back in court.

Part of me believes that voicing my opinion that my ex may have BPD could be a positive thing where as another part of me sees the danger in this.

I have come to the conclusion that unless it is brought up by her then Forever dads advice is the best way to go. By showing her actions and behaviour I can put my case across and let others come to their own opinion on her mental state. If her mental health is brought up then unless pushed I will stick to the fact that I think she has a mental health problem.

As he said you don't know the background of the people in court. By giving your opinion on whats wrong with them you may do yourself more harm than good. You may be seen as the crazy one as they may have witnessed these allegations before by people with the disorder they claim their ex has.

[Panda39]

I don't think the diagnosis is necessary for court.  My SO knew nothing about BPD through most of the 2 years he was separated.  We started piecing some of it together right before trial. 

What he needed to present was the effect his uBPDxw's actions had on their daughters.  She gave him plenty of ammunition.  Because of her neglectful and not in the "best interest" of her kids behaviors my SO received, primary custody, Education decision making, Medical decision making and Dental decision making.  Mom received Vision decision making, Gynecological decision making, and mental health/therapy (talk about putting the fox in charge of the hen house!)

D14 & D19 now live with dad full-time of their own volition and he is their caretaker and support in all things. Mom is not involved in parenting at all, she has spent the last 6 months focused on her own legal issues and further damaging what was left of the relationship with her daughters.

Focus on the actions of your stbx and how they affect the kids and document as much as you can. 

My SO went to court with a 3 inch binder full of documentation.  She showed up with nothing (they did not have lawyers).

Panda39

[Indyan]

If her mental health is brought up then unless pushed I will stick to the fact that I think she has a mental health problem.

It depends I think on how bad your ex's behaviour is. In my case it went extremely far since "someone" has even shot my house with a gun. According to a counselor we saw last year, and to my D11's psychologist, "BPD"x would suffer from Paranoid Delusions and is clearly psychotic. I've been told several times that I'm potentially in danger. My L, although experienced, had never had to request a psych eval to a judge, and I saw how convinced he was when he did. Although I hardly had any witnesses (apart from my D11 via her therapist) of BPDx's craziness, I provided evidence of his seeking help (texts saying he was heading to the psych ER) and mentioned our fear.

[aparenti]

Thanks for all of the great feedback. I'll defer to my lawyer as to how much we push the BPD angle. My situation is that my ex took me to court over accusations of sexual abuse and got me locked into an agreement that included 24/7 supervision in order to preserve our existing 50-50 custody schedule.

I documented numerous high conflict behaviors for the evaluator but he chose to focus on our respective parenting skills instead of our ability to work together for the best interest of our daughter. He also made a tepid recommendation to grant her move away request if she were to go forward with it.

Since then, my ex has doubled down on her difficult behavior, won't agree to drop the requirement for supervision even after the evaluator said that it wasn't necessary and is trying to use that requirement as leverage to get me to give up custody time. She is convinced that she is going to be granted her move away request and won't work with me on anything.

I think my best way forward is to push the 'mother can't share custody' angle and continue to document the behaviors that show this while working to improve my parenting skills. All said, this has been a horrible experience for my daughter. My best hope is that as time passes, it becomes more obvious that while my ex is a good parent, she has no interest in preserving my relationship with our daughter, and that the court weighs that heavily in their decision.

[livednlearned]

What kind of difficult behaviors is she exhibiting?

[aparenti]

What kind of difficult behaviors is she exhibiting?

Basically, she has no interest in my continued access to our daughter.

* She used sexual abuse allegations to get an order for 24/7 supervision and then refused to let me see my daughter for more than a couple of hours a week until I hired someone

* She made my access to our daughter at that time completely dependent on my behavior and her mood. If I behaved in ways that upset her, she would retract her offer for future visitation

* She threatened to call the police on me when I came to visit my daughter at school

* She tried to make secret agreements with the nanny for reporting and when that backfired, she flipped out in front of our daughter and tried to fire the nanny, claiming she was incompetent, emotionally unstable and mentally disturbed

* She refused to reimburse me for a dentist appointment that she scheduled telling me I had requested it and she didn't think it was necessary

* She told me not to come to our daughter's school fundraiser after making me responsible for coordinating the whole event

* She refused to work with me to come up with a shared solution for our daughter's bed wetting problems and wouldn't tell me what her pediatrician recommended

* She disinvited me to a school camping trip the day of the event and then refused to let me speak to our daughter about why I wouldn't be there

* She refused to work with me to approve a backup or temporary nanny so that I would not lose my time with daughter when the regular nanny was unavailable

* She demanded detailed reports from the nanny but then would not communicate anything about our daughter's well being when she was with her.

* She failed to take our daughter to theater classes that I signed her up for after she agreed to do so

* She told Child Services that her 'family goal' was to limit my time, access and influence on our daughter

I'm not sure how these things compare with other people's experience, but this past 6 months has been hell. I had given up on any hope of being able to co-parent with this person because she just doesn't value me or my daughter's connection to me at all. The real threat to my situation is the move away, and now that she has an opening, she is going to pursue it and continue to fight me on everything.

[aparenti]

.

[enlighten me]

That last one about telling child services her family plan is a huge one. Do you have this documented?

[aparenti]

That last one about telling child services her family plan is a huge one. Do you have this documented?

Yes it is documented and I believe she would testify to the same if deposed. The evaluator mentioned in his report that she is angry and wants to have less involvement with me but didn't mention that she also wants me to have less involvement with our daughter. I'm really concerned that if she moved away, I would never hear from my daughter again outside of my visitation time. She has already stopped all communication with me during her visitation.

[ForeverDad]

Just about every item on your list was her unilateral action... .outside of a court order or eventually dismissed or settled with a "deal" in her terms that she later reinterpreted to only her benefit.  She just did it and you were feeling weak and powerless stuck on the outside looking in.

* She used sexual abuse allegations to get an order for 24/7 supervision and then refused... .

* She made my access to our daughter

* She threatened to call the police on me when I came to visit my daughter at school

* She tried to make secret agreements with the nanny for reporting

* She refused to reimburse me

* She told me not to come to our daughter's school fundraiser

* She refused to work with me to come up with a shared solution

* She disinvited me to a school camping trip

* She refused to work with me to approve a backup or temporary nanny

* She demanded detailed reports from the nanny but then would not communicate anything

* She failed to take our daughter to theater classes

* She told Child Services that her 'family goal' was to limit my time, access and influence on our daughter

Of course every attempt to settle failed, that was her goal, that you would lose all the little skirmishes and you'd eventually lose the war.  It reminds me of Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain.  Sadly, he is remembered most for his appeasement foreign policy, and in particular for his signing of the Munich Agreement in 1938, conceding part of Czechoslovakia to Germany.  We all know what happened afterward.  It didn't avoid a war, one point of view is that it gave an impression of weakness or lack of resolve and encouraged Hitler to continue his aggressive tactics.

However WW2 wasn't lost, it started badly but over years the battles turned, advances were halted and eventually the war was won.  You too can adjust your strategies, recognizing that she won't work with you and that any settlements have to be reasonable and fair and one she can't reinterpret at will.

[AlonelyOne]

I can't get the court to take into account a single damn iota of evidence. Yet, me... .all that has to be stated is a single false claim by her. And I am magically held to it.

I am so !@#$ sick of it, that I will be organizing a legislative campaign and a march on the court house over the next two years.  And we will get change, if we have to have a second march with a 1,000 father's wielding sledgehammers and knock that courthouse down block by block.

[ForeverDad]

Though I gather it is rarely done, you can file a request for reconsideration, objection or appeal - whichever applies - when a judge's decision is unfavorable/incorrect.  If you do that then you will have to have already presented documentation to the contrary to the court so it is on the record.  You can't appeal using new information or information that wasn't presented in court, maybe that's why I found it very hard for my court to want to go "on the record", so much of it was wheeling and dealing between lawyers and judge "in chambers".

However, if you make a deal or settlement, then none of the above applies.  Also, judges are often granted "judicial discretion" so they have a wide latitude in what they can order.  You're more likely to be successful with an objection if the reason is a technicality rather than fair/unfair.  Courts don't care about what's fair.

Another point, courts give far more weight to parenting behaviors (which impact the children) than adult behaviors (between you and ex).  When I first separated, we were in 2 courts for the first few months.  I had protection from her and possession of the family home in municipal court.  As soon as she got out she went to family court and got temp custody and majority time.  She actually tried to block my parenting entirely with her ex parte motion but CPS stood up in the followup hearing and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  Despite my temp DV protection in the other court, family court only cared about work schedules and so she walked out with temp custody and majority parenting.  Go figure.

[NorthernGirl]

This thread has been very helpful. DH and his ex (uBPD) currently have joint guardianship of SS21, but earlier this year his ex decided to file for sole. She now has to prove that DH is an unfit guardian. This doesn't go to court until February (it will have been almost a year.) It's a bit different process than a custody hearing but there are some commonalities.

This thread helped remind me that we need to focus on keeping evidence, and not get hung up on the fact that her mental illness is unlikely to ever been mentioned in court.

We were all very frustrated this week when DH's ex held SS21 back from coming to our house. She broke their joint guardianship agreement -- likely because she thinks that because she doesn't like the agreement, she doesn't have to follow it. She actually said years ago she didn't have to follow the divorce agreement because she didn't like it anymore.

And I was frustrated that SS21 has to be assessed for this process, but not his parents. So his mom's suspected BPD likely won't be brought up in documents or in court.

But I'm also realizing that when she broke the agreement and sent off ranting emails, DH just got more evidence for his case. She keeps proving she doesn't follow court orders or the intent of the guardianship act, and that she believes it is okay to withhold SS21 from seeing his father, etc. Even if she were sole guardian, she isn't supposed to restrict access. And DH has more of her abusive emails that show how unstable she is. I get that it is more important to see her impact on SS21 than to try to get BPD mentioned in court.

So thanks for those contributing on this thread.   

[ForeverDad]

Unless DH asks the court for an evaluation (psych eval or a more thorough custody eval) then getting her under a microscope likely won't happen.  (If ex makes allegations and manages to get the court to evaluate only DH, then he needs to modify that into a mutual evaluation.  No way should he do a one-sided eval.)

If you have legal advice you may determine if you can seek an interim ex parte remedy and demonstrate why court action can't wait 5 months.  In some extreme cases a parent has used blocked parenting and other supporting documentation to get temporary custody until the case can be fully decided.  Once that happens then it is more likely to be finalized later when the regular hearing comes up.

I recall my CE report summarized, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... .Mother should immediately lose temporary custody... .If Shared Parenting fails then Father should have custody... ."  So if you have a good court then it should recognize whether one parent is able to share when the other can't, without solid basis.  In my case, the report was excellent but the court sat on it and just ordered we proceed to the next step of the divorce process.

[AlonelyOne]

I have an appeal, it should be heard in the next month or so... .  though I am doubtful it will have any affect.  I am pretty much convinced that there is nothing the courts will take into account except for gender. (Which is illegal by state law, but impossible to prove unless you have a $100,000 to spend on a lawsuit).



"Another point, courts give far more weight to parenting behaviors (which impact the children) than adult behaviors (between you and ex)."

Courts love liars. Frankly, I don't believe they give a !@#$ about the children.

- My being the more nurturing parent, nope irrelevant.

- My ex failing to bring them to therapy for 1/2 a year, irrelevant.

- My ex disparaging me to the children, irrelevant.

The only thing relevant to my court is that my ex has breasts and I have a penis.


ForeverDad,  you lucked out. You had a good CE.  I had a CE who merely cared about who paid him... .

I have no faith left in the system, I am working on a proposal for state legislation to change the system.  And I will see it changed... .I will make it change. 

[Panda39]

Hi AlonelyOne,

You sound just like my SO when he was going through his divorce.  I feel you I really do I absolutely understand your anger. I also believe and understand you have real reasons to be angry.  I have one small piece of advice and that is make sure you keep that anger in check around all involved in your case. (Coming here to vent is great... .we get it and we will listen)

My SO was talking to his uBPDstbx on his cordless phone got angry at her and threw his phone into the couch.  That became throwing the phone and shattering it, then it became throwing the phone at his kids, then it became not letting the kids use the phone to call their mom, to not letting them leave his house, to being dragged into court for "child abuse".  The oh so concerned uBPDmom was soo concerned for her children's well being she didn't even bother to show up for court.  The charges were unfounded but the whole thing was now on record.  As part of the final divorce decree my SO was court ordered to go to therapy regarding his "anger". 

Protect yourself be careful with the anger.

Take Care,

Panda39