A bad turn

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Not sure whether this should go on Coparenting or not. Dh picked up kids earlier, things were basically fine except that stepdad was home instead of at work. Later when both kids were at an activity, DH found a letter for him from SD9 in sd9's overnight bag. It said "What kind of dad gets a lawyer against his own kids" and stuff about how she used to come on visits but now she just wasn't sure she would. Then she signed it Sincerely, SR9. "Sincerely" is how DH signed his mediation email to mom.

This is what DH was afraid of. We picked kids up, took them home, had dinner, things seemed normal, then sd9 said she didn't feel good and wanted to go to mom's. DH said I'm sorry you don't feel good, anything you want to talk about? She said no, then sd7 said She doesn't feel good around you! DH told sd9 he loved her, and asked again if she wanted to talk about anything. No. So he said if what you really want is to go to mom's, then I hear you, & that you don't feel good, so I'll take you.

I hugged her too before she went. She wouldn't hug sd7 though, who was sobbing on the floor. I stayed with sd7 & validated her as best I could.

This is so sh1tty. This is so much worse than I thought mom would do. How would sd9 even know about the lawyer? I mean, he11, the outside of the lawyers envelope says attorney, not lawyer! I'm scared, and sad, and feel so shaken, and DH is beyond words. Sd7 is still with us tonight but we all have to see each other tomorrow morning.

I mean, it's clear why sd9 would suddenly refuse visitation, right? This would not look legit or like coincidence to anyone? I'm sorry, I'm just so shaken and scattered right now. Words of advice welcome.

[kells76]

Not sure whether this should go on Coparenting or not. Dh picked up kids earlier, things were basically fine except that stepdad was home instead of at work. Later when both kids were at an activity, DH found a letter for him from SD9 in sd9's overnight bag. It said "What kind of dad gets a lawyer against his own kids" and stuff about how she used to come on visits but now she just wasn't sure she would. Then she signed it Sincerely, SR9. "Sincerely" is how DH signed his mediation email to mom.

This is what DH was afraid of. We picked kids up, took them home, had dinner, things seemed normal, then sd9 said she didn't feel good and wanted to go to mom's. DH said I'm sorry you don't feel good, anything you want to talk about? She said no, then sd7 said She doesn't feel good around you! DH told sd9 he loved her, and asked again if she wanted to talk about anything. No. So he said if what you really want is to go to mom's, then I hear you, & that you don't feel good, so I'll take you.

I hugged her too before she went. She wouldn't hug sd7 though, who was sobbing on the floor. I stayed with sd7 & validated her as best I could.

This is so sh1tty. This is so much worse than I thought mom would do. How would sd9 even know about the lawyer? I mean, he11, the outside of the lawyers envelope says attorney, not lawyer! I'm scared, and sad, and feel so shaken, and DH is beyond words. Sd7 is still with us tonight but we all have to see each other tomorrow morning.

I mean, it's clear why sd9 would suddenly refuse visitation, right? This would not look legit or like coincidence to anyone? I'm sorry, I'm just so shaken and scattered right now. Words of advice welcome.

[enlighten me]

Hi Kells

It sounds as if mom has shown sd9 the lawyer letter and stirred things up. My thoughts on this is how you your H handled it sounds good. You acknowledged her wishes and didn't force the issue. I would let sd have some breathing space on the subject then when she is in a more receptive mood have a talk with her about it.

Explain why the lawyer is involved and that it wasn't something you wanted her involved with as you didn't want to upset her with it. That you only have her best interests in mind and feel that having the children caught in the middle isn't fair on them.

At nine sd is easy to influence so use facts and counter her argument by asking her questions. For instance if she says your only doing this to hurt mum then counter it with "has anything Ive ever done come across as wanting to hurt people on purpose"?

My sons where being told one thing by their mum but it didn't add up to how I was. In the end they saw my actions as true as opposed to their mums words.

[livednlearned]

Whoo, this is hard stuff.

I'm trying to think of what my T would say, what my L would say. They would tell me to not let S14 make decisions about whether he went to his dad's or not because it would fan the flames. I know it's hard when the child is so upset, it can really pierce our hearts. At the same time, the letter describes distorted thinking -- DH is not hiring a lawyer against his own kids.

Once SD9 goes back to mom's, it empowers biomom to keep it up because it affirms how well it works. It's also a lost opportunity for DH to correct the distortion.

I found it was essential to have a T who was excellent at interpreting these moves. It's easy to get in way over our heads, many of us don't have the grasp of BPD we need to understand what's happening, much less how to parent in ways that can feel counter intuitive.

Don't beat yourself up when these things happen, too. You have to keep moving forward -- my L called it repair and recover. "Hey S14, last time we were talking, you said this, then I said that. I felt so unsettled after, and I've had a few days to collect my thoughts. I see now that what I did was xyz, and that was wrong."

BPD parents tend to parentify the kids, and this can be very frightening for the child. It's not the normal order of things. That gave me confidence to be the parent. "You don't want xyz, and it's making you sad. It's hard feeling this way. We're family and we're here for each other, so let's take a short break and come back to talk about this after we've had a chance to regroup. You're staying here because that's the agreement, and I love you and want to understand what's going on with your feelings."

It's really, really common for the non-BPD parent to have a hard time being assertive. Do you think that's going on for DH?

[ForeverDad]

I agree with LnL, children of that age are easily swayed.  And sending the kids back before scheduled gives incentive for Mother to keep using that strategy.  I recall what happened when my son was 9.  I was seeking custody and had just accomplished getting the court's ruling that there was a Change of Circumstances.  Until then he had always said he wanted more time with me.  Always.  But when that happened and his lawyer (Guardian ad Litem - GAL) was assigned, he returned from his time with his mother and within moments of getting in my car he piped up, "I want 50% time with my mother" - the schedule in place at the time.  He was not advanced enough at that age to use those words.

DH should not have let influenced SD9 get away with the crying manipulation.  No, he didn't need to bluntly say, "I say No".  He could have been prepared to deflect the claims, perhaps with some of these thoughts, "Sorry kiddo, the court order saying I'm caring for you now.  (1 - if a court decision: Court made the decision, not me and not your mother.)  (2 - if a settlement: Your mother and I agreed to this and the court ordered it.)  Sorry, but the court doesn't ask children, these are all adult decisions by the parents and court.  However, if you're not feeling well and it seems serious, we can go see the doctor or do something else to help you feel better... ."

Nothing to be done now, but please give thought to this and be better prepared next time.  Mother is using every underhanded means at her disposal and counted on Dad being unprepared to handle the situation.  (And yes, all of us have fallen victim to such surprises at one time or another.)  As Scotty on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise said, "Fool me once, shame on you!  Fool me twice, shame on me!"

[Panda39]

I agree with LnL, children of that age are easily swayed.  And sending the kids back before scheduled gives incentive for Mother to keep using that strategy. 

I also want to add that one of the best defenses against parental alienation for my SO was more time with his children. So even if the visit is uncomfortable stick with the parenting schedule don't give up time.  Time spent with the kids is one of the best things you can give them if this type of thing happens again use it as an opportunity for discussion and validation if you can. 

"Feeling Sick" as a reason/excuse for SD9 to go back to mom's house... .

If SD9 is "feeling sick" rather than returning her to mom how about a trip to the doctor instead? (I know it costs money but... .)  Then SD9 knows crying sick won't work as a way to go back to mom's house and if she is in fact sick she will be seen by a doctor.

My SO and I have been here too you're not alone.

Hang in there,

Panda39

[kells76]

I'll see if this sort of replies to everyone's feedback and questions... .

It's been almost exactly 2 years since SD9 last refused to spend time with DH. In those years, DH has tried to be really flexible and sort of "hey, no problem" about schedule stuff, partly in order to build trust with the kids, and SD9 in particular, and partly because I think in the back of his mind he knew what Mom would do if he pushed to stick to the agreement.

His biggest fear in going down the road of getting a detailed PP signed/filed was that he would lose the trust and relationships that he'd worked for years to build. Mom has generally presented to the girls that they "always have a choice" about spending time with DH, so he's working against that, too. The kids also get messages that DH is insensitive to the point of being evil, only thinks about what he wants, doesn't really listen to them. Now it sounds like the message they're getting, based on misattribution of causality, is that they "don't feel good around him".

I don't mean for this to come off as a defense, but hopefully just a more thorough explanation/background. DH is really feeling the double bind right now -- if he "listens" to how SD9 "feels", then to follow through and be a "good listener", he takes her back to Mom's. If he sticks to the plan, he's "insensitive", doesn't "listent to the kids", and loses the kids' trust. You could all probably have guessed this, but the chances of Mom stepping up to parent and tell the kids, No, you are going to be at Dad’s now, is basically 0. So the whole weight of this double bind is on DH.

I think what scares both of us right now is what would happen if DH stands firm on the schedule stuff. Mom will undermine that, that’s a given, and DH is really worried that it would go beyond SD9 being angry, that it’d actually be traumatic for her, given what she’s been groomed to believe (i.e., that she always has a choice, that DH doesn’t listen, etc). Basically DH is that one mom in the Solomon story – either give up the kid to the other “mom” and keep the kid whole, or stand up for what’s right and destroy the kid.

So. Background, feelings, fears. Lots of them. Now the questions:

Objectively I see, and I think DH would too, that going the “Well, sorry, we have to stick to the plan” route is the best way to go. Can someone talk me through how that would look to implement at this stage, after 4 years of Mom overempowering the kids? I mean, it sounds nice, and ultimately is what’s good, but how does DH do that with 0 support from Mom?

Using questions to dig into distortions: I wouldn’t be surprised if the messages ran so deep that if DH asked SD9 “has anything I’ve ever done come across as wanting to hurt people on purpose?” that SD9 would feel like she had to say Yes (or would actually believe the answer was Yes… see the “gift from school friend” incident I posted about) in order to be on Mom’s side. So where does DH go from there?

DH wants to email Mom & Stepdad about this – in the past, they ripped him a new one (“destroying SD9’s childhood” etc) about something similar they thought DH did. DH wants Mom & Stepdad to see the parallels. He’s backed off and realizes they’d probably only use that email to further influence the girls, given that it seems they had no compunction about sharing the lawyer’s letter. But we’re both on the same page that it seems like saying nothing is a bad move – this behavior by Mom is very hurtful and DH doesn’t want to not address that (i.e. have it seem like it’s no big deal, because he didn’t speak up). So how can DH get on paper that this isn’t OK, without setting Mom up to just share that info with the kids again?

There’s just a ton for both of us to process. And we both are not great at being assertive. So repairing and recovering will hopefully be the next step. We don’t see the kids again until the coming weekend, though, but we are meeting with our counselor tonight and the L hopefully this week. If I didn’t answer something you asked in your post, I apologize – still shaken up and not thinking very well.

[ForeverDad]

'Nice' isn't working so well, so try using a page from Ex... .not necessarily sneaky but slickly diverting, get her thinking about other things than Mommy Dearest.

"Oh, I'm sorry honey, we already had ____ planned."  (movie, trip to park, outing, dinner, shopping, etc)

"Oh, I'm sorry honey, we already invited your friend ____ over for a sleepover."

"Oh, I'm sorry honey, we already rented/bought a movie ____ and want you to help make the popcorn."

When she gets in the car or walks in the door is when her urge to retreat back to mom will be the highest, I think.  You can show you have regard for her feelings but then promptly move on to some activity that will get her (and you two) past that hurdle.  Yes, you can't be doing some activity every time but once you get back into a routine - mother will be working very hard right now to sabotage visits - it ought to be easier.

I know how you feel.  I am a very accommodating dad to my son, too often he sabotages my activities.  But I see it's something I have to work on too.

[kells76]

FD, this is what scares me -- DH had planned a pool get-together for the kids and their (former) school friends for the day after the girls spent the night. SD9 knew about it for a week. These are the friends she misses. Even sd7, the night SD9 "didn't feel good", reminded her: "But what about seeing your friends and going to the pool tomorrow"? SD9 didn't respond.

In a way, I get SD9 not wanting to be with Dad. But picking being with Mom over friends? That shakes me.

But I don't want to dismiss those ideas, either. The sleepover idea could work -- "Oh, well, if you don't want to sleep here, that's fine -- how about at Fun Friend's house?" We are in a small enough community that I think the kids' friends' parents would help DH there, and DH & I trust those parents.

And also, I don't want to avoid responsibility for whatever part I play in all this. I don't want to be a blamer, so if/when you guys see me go there, or avoid looking at my part, feel free to call me out on it.

[kells76]

And the doctor idea is good, too, at least hopefully to get SD9 to think about her position -- if she feels "too bad" to stay with Dh, surely that's serious and should be checked out immediately.

What gets me there too is that it's not like she's never "felt bad" at Mom's house. And when she "doesn't feel good" at Mom's, does she ask to go to Dad's? Nope. But I think the Kool Aid is strong enough that she either will refuse to see the logic, will come up with a reason why only DH "makes" her not feel good, or both. Not sure where to go there.

[david]

I hope you held on to that letter. It may be helpful in therapy or court.

I agree with the doctor idea. They say they feel sick. You validate by saying you will take them to the doc. If they are sick you are doing the right thing. If they are not then they will probably begin to feel better pretty quickly.

The next day the pool party would probably be a good time for them.

Doing these kinds of things over an extended period of time will help in dealing with the nonsense coming from BPD.

I think trying to get the kids to talk about what they are thinking is great but they may feel pressured from their mom's antics. It may take some time for them to feel safe enough to open up. Mentioning that things can be confidential may be helpful. I parallel parent because of the backlash our boys get from their mom.

[kells76]

Thank you all for your feedback; it means a lot. I think I'm going to continue this by starting a new thread on Coparenting -- it's probably where my next questions will tend.