Dealing with enDads?

[cleotokos]

Hi everyone, I think my stepmother may be a covert narc or possibly BPD. I didn't live with them full time until 14 so I don't really know her well enough to guess. Most of my life I dealt with her by letting just about everything she said or did that bothered me slip. It hasn't worked out very well for me so I've taken to trying to address things that bother me which also doesn't work out, so I've attempted NC with her which neither she or my enDad respects. I've told her repeatedly I am happy to be cordial at family events but I want no kind of relationship with her other than what's absolutely necessary for the rest of the family, and not to contact me unless it's essential (like regarding my dad's health). She will wait 3 or 6 months after we've had a big blow out and then ask me to do something for her by email or text. If I don't respond she gets enDad on my case, while accusing me of being the one to put him in the middle. She acts like she's entitled to my time and attention. The most recent blowout after her accusing me of putting my dad in the middle (she claims every time he sees me he comes home to her with stories about how I ranted about much I hate her) she and I agreed that if he relays any messages between us, we will tell him that we have agreed not to put him in the middle and that the other should address the "messagee" directly. I have never asked him to tell her anything, but I agreed in hopes that she would stop demanding he do something if I don't respond to her, and that if she again claims that I've been bashing her to him, I can say to her "well, did you tell him about our agreement?".

What do you know, a couple of months later a text message comes from her asking me to do her a favour. I didn't respond, then a couple days later a text message comes from enDad to follow up on whether I received nStepmom's text. For the first time, I asked him directly - has she ASKED you to follow up on this? Thinking maybe she just mentioned casually that she hadn't heard back from me and he took it upon himself to ask me about it (her claim is that she does not ask him to get in the middle). But of course, she DID ask him to do it. So I told him, as we had agreed, that she and I had decided to leave him out of our conflicts.

A couple of weeks ago I got an "invitation" to Christmas from her via email. It was not much of an invitation, more like a request for help preparing food with my dad for people they had invited over - my dad recently had a stroke and can't really do it by himself as he's been affected mentally and physically. She has gone out of town to visit my stepsister and so she would not be around to help him with food. I just didn't take it well as it's a repeated pattern of her calling me all sorts of names and being abusive, then turning around like nothing happened and asking me to do something for her or them. So I took the opportunity to question her about a few things, I thought pretty respectfully - I basically said to her this is my perception of you, is it correct? I gave her an out where she could have easily said I'd misunderstood her actions. But she flipped out, bringing up things from years ago that were totally unrelated, and she told one whopper of a lie - that I'd said to her a couple years ago that she would never see my niece again while she was under my care (my question to her was why she tells my dad she wants a relationship with the granddaughter, but every time I bring her around nStepmom either disappears or acts disinterested). Enter moaning and groaning and writhing in victimhood about how I've taken the girl away from her. It is not my style to try and poison her relationships with other family members; that is in fact what she does to people. I see my niece for about 3 hours a week when I take her to swimming lessons, it's not like I have any control over her other family relationships. I'm saddened by enDad and nStepmom's lack of effort to have a relationship with her, and after bringing her to see them a few times I started to feel like it was damaging that "grandma" disappears and acts so coldly towards her. So I brought it up.

The whole email exchange was just bizarre and entitled, her saying things like I hadn't thanked her for allowing me to be present at my stepsister's baby shower. I asked her if she expected other guests to be thankful they were allowed to be there? I'm supposed to act like I'm a bad person who's undeserving of existing in her presence, and be accordingly grateful to her for allowing it. No thanks! I told her it was not HER baby shower and it was about who my stepsister and her husband wanted there, NOT ABOUT HER.

Anyways, I never ever mention these fights to enDad. Since his stroke he's been using illness as an excuse not to hear any of it. I don't even bring it up, he will, and then say that it stresses him out and it's bad for his health. In his mind I am the problem because I don't act like a doormat. I sent the most recent email exchange to him because it was just so outlandish and there were several outright lies. I don't know if he's read it or not but he's completely shut down on the topic of her. I went to dinner with him recently and brought up the topic of Christmas only to say that I was sorry that things went how they did and I didn't mean to reject an invitation to dinner - things had just gone sideways really quickly. I didn't want him to feel like I didn't want to be with him at Christmas! So he says they had already done Christmas dinner the night before and that there was no invitation (I guess to say it was being retracted). I think this has been her dream since she met him - for him to choose her over me. I tried not to let the un-invitation hurt me. It's just her style, if you're not going to be obedient you won't be included.

I'm 37 and I've just gotten to an age where I'm not interested in a relationship with anyone where I'm not allowed to tell them how I feel. That's why I have no interest in nStepmom being in my life, and I feel like I'm getting there with enDad. He's always shown me sympathy where it comes to her, saying things like "I know she's hard to take". Nothing specific but I always knew he saw what was going on. But there have been a couple of incidents since his stroke where he's seemed to side with her. One time they teamed up accusing me of scapegoating my dad, having "childhood issues" and "acting like your mother" (who has BPD and used to go on rages). I've never raged at anyone in my life, but these accusations came after a heated text exchange with nStepmother - about current events, not about anything in my childhood.

I don't feel like it's affecting my self esteem yet - I did go fully NC with both of them a few years ago because they WERE affecting my self-esteem. I'm a lot stronger now than I was then. Since my dad became more ill I've started speaking to him again, and I see that sometimes he actually seems mentally confused about things people have said (almost as if he's imagined things that haven't happened) which could be the source of some increasing conflict. He was never like this before the stroke. He was forced to retire and has no retirement savings so he's stuck living with my stepmother - he can't even afford his medications. He's always spent every cent he got on ridiculous things so it's hard to want to help him out financially. I've thought about offering to let him move in with me but I think that would be an absolute nightmare for many reasons. Plus I don't really feel that helpful with the way he's been implying I'm the problem lately, and refusing to have any honest discussions because of his health. But he constantly talks about how he wishes he could leave her.

What I really want is for both of them to respect my wishes for LC/NC with nStepmom. I've offered to sit down with the two of them so we can all discuss the situation together, but that's been deemed "too stressful" for enDad. I do have the expectation that in that sit-down it will be discussed who is asking my dad to relay messages, and what he has *really* said to her about what I've said about her (my suspicion is little to nothing). Should I offer to pay for a therapy visit for the 3 of us? I think if a therapist could tell them I have the right to choose who is and isn't in my life, they would believe it. Maybe my dad would feel less stressed out with a mediator - though I suspect the real reason for not wanting the sit down is it will be awkward for both enDad and nStepmom to have her lies brought to light.

All I know is I need for her to stop contacting me, and I need to not hear about it from my dad. How do I make this happen?

[Notwendy]

All I know is I need for her to stop contacting me, and I need to not hear about it from my dad. How do I make this happen?


I am not sure if this is possible. I would have liked this arrangement, but my father and mother were a package deal. In order for me to have a relationship with him, it had to include her. Not just include her, but do her bidding, make her happy, join him as an enabler.

I had a similar dilemma as you do as my father was ill, and I was desperate to maintain a relationship with him. I was very naive about BPD in terms of family dynamics. Dysfunctional families act in certain ways to stay stable, and this includes all the members doing their part in these dynamics. When one family member changes their behavior, the family feels unstable. As a response, they may try to draw them in, or the other- reject members who threaten the dynamics.

Like you, I didn't want to be part of their dysfunction. I am a grown woman, with my own family, and there was only so much I could deal with. I tried to break out of the pattern. It was naive. I thought my father would support my standing up for myself.  I was unprepared for the reaction, which was rage and rejection from both my parents.

I was naive to think that my relationship with my father would be between us. The bond between my parents was strong. Ultimately, it was stronger than the bond my father felt for me. That was a tough lesson to learn. However, I have no regrets about starting on the path to not being enmeshed in my FOO, as well as taking steps to not be co-dependent. What I do wish I had known is how to do this in a different way. As I said, I was naive as well as co-dependent. I made it about her, but it was more about me.

I did the best I could at the time, with all that I knew. However, the ideal way would have been to be able to be less effected by my mother's actions, less reactive to her, and stay out of the drama triangle with the two of them. I would have embarked on my own journey to be less co-dependent ( for me it was a 12 step group with sponsor that was most effective- and ACOA ( which includes dysfunction, even in the absence of alcohol abuse). This way, I could have spent time with dad while being more accepting of the situation, which was that he was strongly attached to my mother.

What I did learn at the time was to take care of myself. I could only take my mother for a  brief period of time. I too was grieving ( dad is deceased) and with my own fragile feelings at the time, just could not deal with her. I knew I had to take care of myself. This was a big step for me, and an important one.

[GeekyGirl]

Hi cleotokos,

That is a tough situation to be in--I can definitely see how you're torn, as I'm the daughter of an enDad myself. I can understand the spot you're in and how you want a peaceful coexistence with your dad and limited contact with your stepmom.

Notwendy is right--you have to take care of yourself first. The best way I've found to do that is to make sure that I'm dealing with my own feelings appropriately and coming into any interactions with my enDad and BPDmom when I'm level-headed and ready to deal with whatever comes (that part takes some practice ).

Therapy and mediation can be helpful, if they're open to it. How do you think he'd respond if you asked him about going to therapy? If he wouldn't be interested at this point, what do you think would happen if you explained to your dad that you would prefer to hear from him directly instead of through your stepmom? Is there a way to explain that to him gently?

Big hugs to you.   There are plenty of others here who can relate to what you're going through.

[busybee1116]

Just my 2 cents--I think your communication style promotes some of the conflict and drama. Politely questioning motives for one and the texting/ignoring and then double communication with your dad is still triangulating. It was SO HARD for me to see my part in the dysfunction, but once I realized I was not communicating effectively and had wobbly/moving boundaries, I was able to make changes in my behavior/style that totally shifted everything. I would strongly encourage you to read through the lessons section on boundaries and communication, repeatedly.

I have an uNPD dad and whole family is enmeshed. You have the added complexity of step parent and health issues. It must be hard to be firm with someone who really does have health issues and needs physical help at times. Cut yourself some slack there, but also spend some time perhaps looking at your part. 

[cleotokos]

Just my 2 cents--I think your communication style promotes some of the conflict and drama. Politely questioning motives for one and the texting/ignoring and then double communication with your dad is still triangulating. It was SO HARD for me to see my part in the dysfunction, but once I realized I was not communicating effectively and had wobbly/moving boundaries, I was able to make changes in my behavior/style that totally shifted everything. I would strongly encourage you to read through the lessons section on boundaries and communication, repeatedly.

Hi busybee, thanks for reading my post. This is hard to hear because I thought I've been making an effort not to triangulate. What do you mean by the texting/ignoring? I've expressed to her that I want NC with her, but not with my dad - so if he texts me about her trying to contact me, what should I say? Should I set a boundary with him that if he texts or contacts me because she wants a response, I won't answer? I kept it short and simple, saying only that we'd agreed not to involve him in our conflicts, and neither he or I have spoken of it since. I haven't texted her or responded to any of her texts in years, and the recent Christmas email was the first thing I've responded to in ages. Well except for a text asking me to run errands for her prior to my sister's baby shower, to which I responded politely that I had my hands full with my 5 year old niece and couldn't help out. I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place because she considers non-response a hostile act and gets my dad involved at that point.

I'm not sure what you mean by "double communication"? He speaks about my stepmother often and I listen. I don't say much at all about her or our fights, except when I wanted to let him know it wasn't HIM I was rejecting for Christmas. He tells me a lot of things that he believes will make me feel sorry for her, he will talk about her abusive childhood, things she's done for him, her strange family, etc. etc. In his mind her having a hard life entitles her to treat others poorly. I don't have much to say about any of it, just let him speak. I think she lies to him about childhood abuse because it lets her get away with how she treats people but I've never said that to him. Is it still engaging in triangulating to listen? I sure don't enjoy hearing any of it. I know if I tell him please don't talk about nStepmom, I will probably be accused of having "childhood issues" etc. They are of the opinion that "as a grown woman", as they said to me, I should be over my "childhood problems" by now.

I do react to her sometimes, and a large part of this is because she's accused me of being "dishonest" for not telling her how I feel (there has been the accusation many times over the years that I vent to my dad and tell him how I feel about her, but say nothing to her about it - this is purely a figment of her imagination. And even if it did happen, I don't think it would really be her business). Logically, I know she has no right to expect an explanation from me. But it seems to be a trigger for me to be called dishonest. I've noticed that she's aware of this and keeps doing it. I guess I thought I would try something different - she's tried to make me the bad guy for not wanting to talk things out, so I was trying to talk it out and ask her why she thought things were this way. I should have known that even what I thought were simple questions, she perceives as an attack. I wish that I didn't react after her response, but I did and we got into it. Now I know that "honest discussion" which she claims to want is not going to work so I think next time I would not bother. It was something I hadn't really tried with her before, so.

When I say my dad has expressed that he knows she's hard to take or whatever, this is not because he and I discuss my issues with her at all. We never ever discuss my issues with her. This is based purely on his observations of the situation.

Therapy and mediation can be helpful, if they're open to it. How do you think he'd respond if you asked him about going to therapy? If he wouldn't be interested at this point, what do you think would happen if you explained to your dad that you would prefer to hear from him directly instead of through your stepmom? Is there a way to explain that to him gently?

Hi geekygirl, thanks also for reading my post. I'm not optimistic about presenting the idea of therapy with him. I don't think he would go for it, because he would know that nStepmom would be against it. I am supposed to just not ever have a problem with anything she says or does - there is a long history here though of me NOT "having a problem", or at least not making an issue of things that bother me, but I'm accused of ranting about her to enDad. I think she knows exactly what she does to me and thinks that were she in my position, SHE would rant to enDad about it, so she figures I MUST be doing what she would do.

I have tried telling my dad that I'd rather hear from him for family invitations etc. but I'm accused of being petty and told "tell it to nStepmom yourself then" (I have, many times). I am accused of putting enDad in the middle if I say anything like this, also of "trying to control the family situation".

Notwendy, it's so helpful to hear similar stories like yours. This is why I love this place. 

I try not to be effected by her, and I've done much better in the last couple of years. I should not have reacted to her email, but live and learn. I actually thought I was opening up a discussion but it wasn't perceived that way by her. That's ok, I know not to go there again.

Like you, I didn't want to be part of their dysfunction. I am a grown woman, with my own family, and there was only so much I could deal with. I tried to break out of the pattern. It was naive. I thought my father would support my standing up for myself.  I was unprepared for the reaction, which was rage and rejection from both my parents.

I was naive to think that my relationship with my father would be between us. The bond between my parents was strong. Ultimately, it was stronger than the bond my father felt for me. That was a tough lesson to learn. However, I have no regrets about starting on the path to not being enmeshed in my FOO, as well as taking steps to not be co-dependent. What I do wish I had known is how to do this in a different way. As I said, I was naive as well as co-dependent. I made it about her, but it was more about me. 

This is all I want - not to be part of the dysfunction. Once I started reading up on dysfunctional family dynamics, it all clicked. And I just want to escape! I feel like she keeps sucking me back in because there's a role I'm supposed to play, and the dysfunctional dynamic just doesn't work without me. I've always suspected that enDad would choose her over me, if forced to make a choice. I've always felt like she's been trying to force that choice, all my life, and I've let things slide, to avert that choice being made, all my life. I too naively believe that my relationship with my father should be between him and I. I have never thought enDad would support me standing up for myself with her, but I did think he would think the issue was between her and I and it should not affect his and my relationship. Foolish of me, I now know.

[Notwendy]

Keep learning and growing.

I think, of all the members in my FOO, I am the most stable one-the least enmeshed. However, it was hard to see my own dysfunction and enmeshment because... well it was relative to them!  Being the "normal" one in a crazy family - how normal is that?

It has taken, and still does, a lot of work to learn how to not be enmeshed, how to not step into the drama with my parents, how to not enable, rescue, and such things that I did.

Don't be too hard on yourself. It is hard to see ourselves, especially in context of our FOO.

It takes work, it takes time, and I think the growth is continuous if we work at it, but not always linear. However, each time we slip up ( there are no mistakes, just learning opportunities) we can learn from it.

The members on this board are a great source of insight. Value the times they point out your behaviors. If we see them, it is because we recognize them- as we may have been working on them too.

One step at a time

[busybee1116]

cleotokos:

A little background for you, so you know where I'm coming from. My mom is uBPD, my dad is uNPD. They are a bonded, enmeshed pair and it's a mess. They'll be married 50 years soon, so something about the relationship works for them. I used to get involved all the time in their dysfunctional dance but after getting burned many, many times I learned to step out or to the middle. I learned some very bad habits  from them and it took a lot of self reflection to realize I was dancing with them. Despite his flaws, my Dad has some great qualities and was the more open, loving, "normal" parent--I want to maintain contact with him. We have a good relationship generally, as long as my mom stays out. But, I can't have a relationship with him and not with her. They are a pair.

Now to your situation! I'm sorry if what I said was hard to read, just based on my experience/opinion. It was hard for me to face. It sounds like your step-mom has NPD or BPD traits and your dad is enmeshed with her. You want NC with step-mom, but want contact with your father. Correct? I don't like speaking in absolutes, but given that BPD is all about black and white thinking hard not to!

IMO/E, you cannot be NC with your step-mother AND maintain contact with your father. They are a package.

Likewise, you cannot set boundaries with your step-mom and NOT have the same boundary for you father--because they are a pair. 

I've told her repeatedly I am happy to be cordial at family events but I want no kind of relationship with her other than what's absolutely necessary for the rest of the family, and not to contact me unless it's essential (like regarding my dad's health). She will wait 3 or 6 months after we've had a big blow out and then ask me to do something for her by email or text. If I don't respond she gets enDad on my case, while accusing me of being the one to put him in the middle. She acts like she's entitled to my time and attention. The most recent blowout after her accusing me of putting my dad in the middle (she claims every time he sees me he comes home to her with stories about how I ranted about much I hate her) she and I agreed that if he relays any messages between us, we will tell him that we have agreed not to put him in the middle and that the other should address the "messagee" directly. I have never asked him to tell her anything, but I agreed in hopes that she would stop demanding he do something if I don't respond to her, and that if she again claims that I've been bashing her to him, I can say to her "well, did you tell him about our agreement?".

The example you give is all about wibbly boundaries and triangulation. Your step-mom continues to text you, even though you've told her not to (except in emergencies)--violating boundary. Then, your dad gets involved (this is what I meant by double communication) and triangulates with you for not responding to your step-mom (persecutes you, rescues her, she gets to be victim. Then you are victim and you persecute her by saying quit getting dad involved and rescue him). You talk a lot to her considering you have decided to be NC! This phrase here is the epitome of triangulation IMO

I can say to her "well, did you tell him about our agreement?"

and this is a close second:

For the first time, I asked him directly - has she ASKED you to follow up on this?

While those seem like perfectly reasonable questions in a normal relationship, you have to remember you're talking about 2 people in distorted land.

I don't really have a great idea for how to change your particular dynamic exactly, but I would suggest rethinking your boundaries and setting something that both have to adhere to. In my case, I figured out what I valued/needed to be off limits and set boundaries there (like my privacy, my relationship with my husband, my ability to work without interference/with respect--they had an expectation I would drop everything if they showed up for example!). I also figured out that MORE contact was actually better. I know that sounds crazy. When I tried to do things alone with my dad, it drove my mom CRAZY. It would backfire and cause all kinds of awful behavior. If I tried to back off, they were more likely to act out and blow up if we hadn't seen or talked to each other in awhile. So now, I send regular BIFFY emails and make regular calls. Everything is short and sweet. For example, I sent a picture from my walk today with a funny subject line but no other text. I sprinkle emoticons in my emails like a 12 year old girl because my mom seems to react better to the silliness and it's easier for her to understand my tone if there's a winky face. If the phone call is more than 5 minutes or rambling off into unwanted topics, I figure out how to end it.

I'll write more after dinner, but wanted to start somewhere 

[Notwendy]

Busybee- what you describe is the dynamics in my FOO. If Mom perceived me as a persecutor- for setting boundaries with her or trying to have a relationship with Dad, he was right there as her rescuer. As he got sicker, Mom was still Mom and I stepped in as rescuer for him from her. Oooh boy that was predictable if I had known about the dynamics at the time but I did not.

Busybee- your words are not harsh. What is harsh was the shock of my father being angry at me and remaining so until he died. No matter how hard I tried to connect with him, both he and my mother remained angry at me. I don't regret taking the steps to become less enmeshed but advice and understanding would have helped me understand it better and not naively jump on that triangle.

I would say that enmeshed parents are not just a pair. As far as they are concerned- they act as one person. Even if they are angry at each other it is a tightly orchestrated dance. I learned later that my fathers side of the family did not like my mother and so my father hardly saw them. I think he may have wanted to, but perhaps this did not go over well with my mother.

My mother divides people. You are either on her side or not. That isn't how I see thinks but in a black and white thinking world, those are the choices.

This could be the world your father has to operate in. You can have boundaries, not be enmeshed, and not step into the triangle. But if you wish to have a relationship with your Dad it helps to understand his world and you will have to meet him in it.

[maddnessreturns]

I'm sorry you are having such a rough time. I tried not talking to my mom and only my enabling dad but it doesn't work. She would tell him stuff to say to me, answer his phone, beg him to let her apologize for whatever threat she had made to me.

As much as I enjoyed speaking with my dad I had to realize he is just that an enabler who isn't going to set boundaries and always let my mom do whatever BPD thing she is on at the moment.

Three months ago I went NC with BOTH because it was the only way. Yes I miss talking to my father but it wasn't worth the emotional damage my mom was doing to me in her different BPD modes.

This is just what has happened with mine.

[busybee1116]

I would say that enmeshed parents are not just a pair. As far as they are concerned- they act as one person.

THIS! EXACTLY!

Like you Notwendy, it doesn't hurt less to be their scapegoat and feel their anger, but it certainly does help to understand the dynamic, and my role in it (if any). I can choose to respond now instead of react. It took a long time to get there and I still get caught up sometimes. Less, however   Like you said, understand his world and meet him in it. That means I have to navigate and manage my relationship with my mother. I HATE that I have to manage our relationship, but it is what it is, and it's a lot better than the alternative.

cleotokos:

What I meant by "politely questioning motives for one and the texting/ignoring"--that is kind of vague. I said it already in my above reply, but basically you talk a lot to your step-mom considering you are trying to be NC. When you do, it's not effective communication (politely questioning is like negotiating with the insane, or a 2 year old!). When you ignore her texts (because you told her not to contact you--your boundary), you are inviting her to use your dad as her weapon on the drama triangle. So it's not a great boundary given their relationship to tell her "don't text me/contact me" because she consistently just uses excuses (I need your help/favor) or other ways (your dad) to communicate with you that are far more dramatic. It's crazy making, but totally predictable and shows that your boundary needs some rethinking.  

He speaks about my stepmother often and I listen.

When this all blew up in my family (very long story), my dad used me as his counselor. That was very messed up for a lot of reasons. I tried to help/be his rescuer--because at the time I only knew she had uBPD. I did not understand his NPD traits, that he is also dysfunctional. It took more time to figure out their dynamic (enmeshed/oneness)--no matter how much they each complain about the other. Plus, like I said, I've always been closer to him and felt more caring/love from him. He's the more "normal" of the 2.

But if there's anything I've learned, it's that no matter what, they will ALWAYS be together. No matter what I do, or anyone else says or scenario I can dream up--the outcome will ALWAYS be the same. And typically, I will somehow come out worse for wear if involved. I would strongly suggest that you figure out a way to not be his listener/ventee/counselor, even if you are not giving advice/opinions/feedback. It's enough to listen--the perception is you're on his side/complicit/condoning.

For me--I have not been able to set (many) explicit verbal/written boundaries. I've had to be a ninja and change subjects, end phone calls quickly when they veer off into topics I do not want to talk about ("oh no! the soup is boiling over on the stove! gotta go!", enforce my own personal boundaries (like turning my mother away when she showed up unannounced at my office in the middle of a full schedule. Office staff turned her away that is, but I directed them to do it, as I would for ANY unscheduled visitor. I had always dropped everything before). I had never told her "you can't just show up." I'd never had the strength, and knew it would crush her. Afterwards, I called her and said I'd heard she'd been at my office earlier and I was sorry to have missed her (white lie, but whatever ). Next time, let's have lunch--and call first so I can find a time that works for both of us. That was HARD but it worked. She never showed up unannounced again and hey, she gets lunch!   For my dad--being his counselor/sounding board took a little more undoing, but changing topics, "medium chill" (which is something you should totally read about--search for it on this site) and avoiding being alone with him for a period did the trick. After some time, I think they have been conditioned--I may not talk long anymore, but I will call again, soon. If they talk about something in off-limits territory, the subject will get changed or suddenly my toilet is overflowing (they must thing we are the most accident prone people)! Ha!

Here's an example for you to illustrate what I mean by ALWAYS--they will always stay together.

My mother had worn out her welcome in town A with her usual shenanigans, an hour from my house. She was also annoyed with my father for whatever fresh reason. Town A and their home had good features for an aging couple. Because of shenanigans, she was angling to move to town B a state away, to a senior community. He was not interested, happy in town A. She tried to get me to pick sides, express opinion "won't you miss us a state away? don't you want us to stay?" EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS ANGLING TO MOVE, then "don't you think moving to senior community a good idea? Isn't our current house too big?". He tried to get me to reason with her, bad time to move, he was happy in town A. I told both of them (from the middle) something like "wow, you have a lot of choices!" wherever they land, I will always visit and try to be available to them and that either way, super impressed they had plans for care as they age--in either town. Then, mom bought home in town B on a whim, my dad spun out. It was a long drawn out process to sell their home. My dad blamed my mom, my mom tried to blame anyone else, they spun for awhile. Then they BOTH joined in anger at real estate agent over something trivial and became a united front--team crazy again. House sold, they moved, happy as clams.  That bad real estate agent! Tried to keep them from selling house and moving. They will ALWAYS end up together.

Now, if I had said "don't move!" my mom would have used that against me the rest of my life for how unhappy she is in town A. If I had said, "move, it sounds like a great place," I would have been the scapegoat if things had not gone well in town B and she would have said, "you don't want us living near you anymore." If I had tried to comfort both of them in their separate opinions or negotiate, I would have been in all sorts of triangulation hell and would have been seen as choosing sides EVEN THOUGH THAT'S WHAT THEY TRIED TO DO--make me pick a side.

I'm rambling. Anyway. This site is amazing and has all sorts of tools that will help you. Keep reading and keep asking questions! Being uncomfortable is GOOD. This is hard stuff.

[Notwendy]

I did exactly that- told them not to move somewhere that I thought was a bad idea! Little did I know. I assumed that they would listen to my reasons and understand them. Noo. I became the person who "didn't want my parents within 200 miles of me"- which is what they told everyone. Then, I presented an alternative plan- a place even closer to me than their idea but one that was a better option for my family. I think I must have sent them 20 brochures from adult living communities. Not a single one was considerable for them.

This is one thing that they decided to stay angry at me for. If I brought it up, my father would rage at me. They eventually considered one of them, but still were angry. I didn't understand the dynamics then, and felt very hurt by all this.

As Busybee said, understanding the drama triangle is very helpful.

[Notwendy]

I wanted to add that one reason my father's reaction to my establishing boundaries with mom surprised me is that like Bumblebee mentioned, he also was the more normal one, the one I saw as a parent. He would also on occasion confide in me- and so I believed he was fully aware that my mother was emotionally abusive. Yet, I learned that although he could discuss her if he chose to, if I did, it would not go over well with him.

I was in the FOG and enmeshed for a long time. I didn't know any other way. What changed for me was being a parent myself, I could not imagine allowing anyone to hurt my own children. This was not as much an issue when they were little. My mother is not overtly or physically harmful. She is manipulative and emotionally controlling. When the kids became older, I noticed she was doing that with them too. That is when I set boundaries. The result of this was to trigger my parents. The rule in my family was to deny anything that my mother did, and so, setting boundaries with the grandkids triggered that.

Seeing my father as a parent, I assumed he would not want his grandkids to be hurt, however, this also raised the question of how could he allow this with his own kids- me? How could he have turned me over to my mother to do what she wanted with me, and then also expect me to turn over my own kids to her too? I pretty much had come to a realization of what was going on with my mother, but seeing this aspect of my father was a big surprise to me as I saw him as the "good parent". Kids have black and white thinking, and so I had to see both my parents as they are, humans- not all good, not all bad.

I was also learning about how the issues in my FOO affected my marriage- a thankfully milder situation but one that also was affected by my co-dependency and how that matched my H and his FOO. I learned that our partners were an emotional match for us. Taking this lesson and trying to understand how my very affected mother could match my normal to me father was a puzzle.

Enmeshment is complicated, and it is strong. Strong enough for my father to not see the side of my mother that I saw. Strong enough for him to side with her and protect her no matter what. If I tried to step in between them, or do anything that resulted in her discomfort, the results were predictable.

I share my story, not because I am bitter or upset about it. Dealing with those feelings was a time of emotional growth for me. I share my story in hopes that the information will help others in some way.

[busybee1116]

I did exactly that- told them not to move somewhere that I thought was a bad idea! Little did I know.

I am so proud that I stayed out of it--I credit therapy and what I learned in the last 5 years about them and me. I would have reacted totally differently 6 years ago. I think her desire to move stemmed in part from me finally setting boundaries--she felt rejected by me. She had burned a lot of bridges with friends and neighbors, too. At one point she even said, "There's nothing left for me in [this state] anymore anyway" as a justification for moving. Um, how about me? And I had to realize... .they might stay, they might leave. And neither is a comment or reflection on me. I also realized setting boundaries may have some blowback, and moving away was one of the consequences. Which is very good in some ways for me to have physical distance. And bad in other ways--now when they visit, they STAY WITH ME.

[Notwendy]

You were wise and had a wise therapist.

I didn't see it coming. I saw my father as a sensible, logical man, and in every other way, he was, with the exception of my mother. The place they had decided on was not a good idea in many ways. The alternative, was just as good, if not better, and even closer to me. At the time, I was the one who could help the most, but I have a family of my own and have to think of them too. But it didn't matter, once I said anything about it, that was it.

This kind of drama is what got me into therapy to learn how to deal with it.

The last time they stayed with me was before this and they got into some kind of argument. Then, my father blamed it on something to do with me, I don't know what, or at least it seemed so at the time. In the middle of the visit, they moved to a hotel. I cried a lot over that one, but again, I had no idea what was going on at the time with them. We have a comfortable home, with a guest room and bathroom off the side of the house. It has privacy.  Plus, with the kitchen, they could get something to eat whenever they liked. And at no cost to them. But whatever- they didn't stay with me after that.

Now, my mother is on her own, with people who come in to help her clean, drive, as she is elderly. These are things she didn't do in the first place- dad did them, but now, her lifestyle is very normal for a woman her age. On occasion she mentions moving near me. I say nothing. Now she is on the waiting list for a retirement home/assisted living if needed place near me. I say nothing about her choices. I have to let go of wanting any control of what she decides to do, and stay focused on my own part of the relationship.