Conflicted. Need grounding

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Well, I had a more rational discussion with J late in the day.  I have set a hard date for when J and I aren't going to talk on a personal level anymore.  This was brought on after 3 months of her pushing me away that culminated in her dating a new guy, R (though she doesn't see it as dating).  They went to dinner together, twice.  She claims she hasn't "really spoken" to him since and that he seems only interested in her because she's "cute", as she said.

She brought up how my marital status had became an issue (she was married too when all this started) and how that had hurt her over the past year.  Granted, I am not proud of how we started up and how my separation/proceedings took longer to get underway, but I had been up front with J in the beginning about all of that.  Basically, she saw me as using her and that's how she justified doing what she did throughout the year to me.  Never mind the fact that she had told me she was divorcing for a year plus and actually didn't do it until the end of October.  She admitted recently that she wasn't divorcing M, but she had lied to me about it so I wouldn't have left her.  That's not mentioning how she dated another guy, B, for the entire month of July as well.  Yes, it's been a crazy stupid year.

Of course, I could be minimizing it all by saying I wasn't a horrible person by starting an affair with J.  Affairs are hard enough, add into the mix her issues, the moral implications/stress and it's a recipe for disaster.  But, when I did separate and we began to start the process, J fled.  She claimed it was because she didn't know "where I stood" with my stbex (though, honestly she never asked).  I'm currently still going through everything (you have to love mandated "cool off" periods, right?) and J is starting her press for me to stay in a r/s with her.  But, I told her whatever happens to me isn't any of her business or concern, that a line was crossed with R and there's no return from that.  I told her that I understood how horrible of a person I was for starting an affair with her, but that I had never lied to her.  She thinks that my stbex and I were constantly sleeping together, but the truth is we didn't.  We were literally room mates with a kid (and not room mates "with benefits", might I add).  That's probably how I was open to an affair to start with, I was in an invalidating r/s to start with.  But, I digress.

She seemed both happy and sad that we were ending.  I truly do believe she loves me (at least, in this moment), the best that she can love.  She actually cried in front of me because we were ending.

Had we started a "real" r/s under the best circumstances, I wonder if we would've made it.  Or, would it have failed?  It's hard for me to say.  I'm feeling very conflicted right now.  Am I making the wrong choice by walking away?  Was I the reason we failed?

[Lonely_Astro]

Well, I had a more rational discussion with J late in the day.  I have set a hard date for when J and I aren't going to talk on a personal level anymore.  This was brought on after 3 months of her pushing me away that culminated in her dating a new guy, R (though she doesn't see it as dating).  They went to dinner together, twice.  She claims she hasn't "really spoken" to him since and that he seems only interested in her because she's "cute", as she said.

She brought up how my marital status had became an issue (she was married too when all this started) and how that had hurt her over the past year.  Granted, I am not proud of how we started up and how my separation/proceedings took longer to get underway, but I had been up front with J in the beginning about all of that.  Basically, she saw me as using her and that's how she justified doing what she did throughout the year to me.  Never mind the fact that she had told me she was divorcing for a year plus and actually didn't do it until the end of October.  She admitted recently that she wasn't divorcing M, but she had lied to me about it so I wouldn't have left her.  That's not mentioning how she dated another guy, B, for the entire month of July as well.  Yes, it's been a crazy stupid year.

Of course, I could be minimizing it all by saying I wasn't a horrible person by starting an affair with J.  Affairs are hard enough, add into the mix her issues, the moral implications/stress and it's a recipe for disaster.  But, when I did separate and we began to start the process, J fled.  She claimed it was because she didn't know "where I stood" with my stbex (though, honestly she never asked).  I'm currently still going through everything (you have to love mandated "cool off" periods, right?) and J is starting her press for me to stay in a r/s with her.  But, I told her whatever happens to me isn't any of her business or concern, that a line was crossed with R and there's no return from that.  I told her that I understood how horrible of a person I was for starting an affair with her, but that I had never lied to her.  She thinks that my stbex and I were constantly sleeping together, but the truth is we didn't.  We were literally room mates with a kid (and not room mates "with benefits", might I add).  That's probably how I was open to an affair to start with, I was in an invalidating r/s to start with.  But, I digress.

She seemed both happy and sad that we were ending.  I truly do believe she loves me (at least, in this moment), the best that she can love.  She actually cried in front of me because we were ending.

Had we started a "real" r/s under the best circumstances, I wonder if we would've made it.  Or, would it have failed?  It's hard for me to say.  I'm feeling very conflicted right now.  Am I making the wrong choice by walking away?  Was I the reason we failed?

[mrwigand]

I understand your doubts and concerns. I experienced the same exact questions after my relationship fell apart.

Here are some questions that might help you evaluate:

1) What were some of the behaviors she exhibited that hurt you most?

2) Is she seeking help of any kind, etc.?

The truth is that breakups happen for a reason. Circumstances can obviously play a huge role, but you and your ex are most likely not star-crossed lovers. If it ended, it's probably because it was the right thing to happen.

[Mutt]

Hi Lonely_Astro,

A relationship takes two people. We can take the circumstances of how you met out of the equation.

She brought up how my marital status had became an issue (she was married too when all this started) and how that had hurt her over the past year.  Granted, I am not proud of how we started up and how my separation/proceedings took longer to get underway, but I had been up front with J in the beginning about all of that.  Basically, she saw me as using her and that's how she justified doing what she did throughout the year to me.  Never mind the fact that she had told me she was divorcing for a year plus and actually didn't do it until the end of October.  

Does she believe in her mind that her circumstances are the cause of other peoples actions? Does she believe that she is always right?

She's responsible for her actions and choices. She chose to be in a r/s with you. So would her behaviors be different under different circumstances?

[Lonely_Astro]

I understand your doubts and concerns. I experienced the same exact questions after my relationship fell apart.

Here are some questions that might help you evaluate:

1) What were some of the behaviors she exhibited that hurt you most?

2) Is she seeking help of any kind, etc.?

The truth is that breakups happen for a reason. Circumstances can obviously play a huge role, but you and your ex are most likely not star-crossed lovers. If it ended, it's probably because it was the right thing to happen.

1)  The biggest behavior she exhibited that hurt me the most was lying to me.  One would think that it would be dating someone else without telling them, but what hurt the most for me was the deception.  Ironic, considering how we were in a r/s, I know.  J and I have a history that goes back 4 years ago.  It's a long story but she was undiagnosed then and it was really different then that it was/is now.  Now, with that said, she had told me she was divorcing M when we started up.  We originally agreed that we would be there for each other (emotionally, later that became physical) but we wouldn't interfere with each other's lives.  Once we evolved, that changed, of course.  But, she went back to M and tried to work it out without telling me.  There's also another super sore spot of another guy (N) that stretches back to our previous r/s.  

During this year, I was looking at her phone because I was thinking about getting the same model.  While I was holding it, N called her.  Now, J had swapped numbers after she married M so there was no legitimate reason (to me) as to why N had her number (and was in her contacts).  She said that N was there from long ago and that he had gotten her number from a friend because she had received a bill at N's house (they used to live together) and he was trying to get in touch with her.  Later she would go on to say that N was getting in touch with her about something to do with her car.  The story of why N called had changed.

Then, in July, she dated a guy for almost a month (B) before I found out and it blew up.  I ended it then but ended up back with her because she said she was going to start DBT (which she did in mid-Sept).  I was living on my own by that point and was in the process of my stuff (I had more assets/kid to deal with, where she had a simple cut/dry marriage).  In early October, she started pushing me away.  In late October she was served divorce papers by M.  She never came back after that, really.  By mid-December I forced the hand and accused her of dating someone and she "came clean" about R.  At the time, we were in limbo.  :)uring our "final discussions" as I'll call them, she admitted to lying to me about M, denied anything with N (though I think thats a lie), really won't discuss B because it makes her loathe herself for what she did to me, and said that R was "just friends" and how she felt bad for dinner with him because all she could do was think of me the entire time.

Also during all of this she got to where she would ST me fairly regularly.  She would attempt to gaslight me as well.  

2)  She is medicated.  She is also in DBT (started mid-Sept, still going by what she says).  

She told me that the reason she pushed away in October (and beyond) was because she wanted M out of her life so that she could give me a "fair chance", but it appears that she's a "day late and dollar short" because I made it clear she crossed a boundary (R, by the way was that boundary) that was a r/s ending boundary.  My trust in her is gone and I can't get that back.  Yes, I am fully aware we started a r/s in an immoral way.  But, the one thing I made clear to her was that I didn't want her to lie to me and she did, often.  I'm still wondering though, am I doing the right thing?  I'm not sure if I should walk away.  Logically, it seems like it's the best choice.  But, what if my martial status was the root of all the behavior and she was in survival mode (her fear of abandonment was ever present, as I could leave any moment and return to my "normal life" as she put it, if that makes sense)?  I don't think I could ever fully trust her, but what if I was the cause of that distrust?

[Lonely_Astro]

Hi Lonely_Astro,

A relationship takes two people. We can take the circumstances of how you met out of the equation.

She brought up how my marital status had became an issue (she was married too when all this started) and how that had hurt her over the past year.  Granted, I am not proud of how we started up and how my separation/proceedings took longer to get underway, but I had been up front with J in the beginning about all of that.  Basically, she saw me as using her and that's how she justified doing what she did throughout the year to me.  Never mind the fact that she had told me she was divorcing for a year plus and actually didn't do it until the end of October. 

Does she believe in her mind that her circumstances are the cause of other peoples actions? Does she believe that she is always right?

She's responsible for her actions and choices. She chose to be in a r/s with you. So would her behaviors be different under different circumstances?

That's the million dollar question, isn't it Mutt?  Would all this had taken place if I were single when all this started?  Would it have ended the way it has?  There were times, I know, that she needed me and I wasn't physically available because of my status.  It wasn't like I could just go see her or her come see me because of that.  We couldn't just go out to dinner.  We couldn't be normal.  I can see how that would make someone with a fear of abandonment (especially if she actually does feel how she claims to) over react and make bad choices.  The problem is, I can empathize with her actions when I view it from her point of view.  Right or wrong, she made those choices but am I the villain of the story?  I know J's marriage failed because M was abusive (I know this independently).  It may not have failed otherwise.

Do I love J?  Yes, I do.  Honestly, I loved her from the moment I saw her as Hollywood as that is.  Even though we went our separate ways 4 years ago (and I went on to have a kid), I never stopped loving her really.  I try not to minimize what she did to me back then and this past year, but for the first time I'm wondering if she was grounded and I threw her off kilter.  What if she truly does love me and my status/actions is what led to our demise?

I will add something else into the mix.  My stbex has requested we go to counseling, as she wants to see if we should actually go through with the divorce or not (she doesn't know about J).  She wants what's best for our child (oh and we get along fine, so I see us being close friends if we do decide to go forward).  While I know it sounds like a horrible thing to consider, especially given what I have done, the other side of that coin is that I would get to be with my child all the time.  For those with kids, you know what I mean.  While staying in an unhappy r/s, kids or not, isn't the answer, I also want to say that I was more invalidated in my marriage rather than fighting/arguing... .which weighed on me.  I was a bill payer and babysitter or at least that's how I felt.  Of course, once my child was gone, I realized how much I missed being the babysitter.

Anyway, I am in counseling myself and my T says I should work on saving the marriage, affair or not.  She says that I should "just forget the BPD, she's nothing but trouble and heartache" and that I could find my love again for the wife.  I have no idea if I am going to try that or not.  That's an entirely different topic for a different time.

I guess I'm asking myself if I should stay the course and walk away from J to be clear on what I want to do for my child (and for myself).  J has the potential to be so loving.  She has demonstrated (as have I) that she has the ability to be "evil" as well.  I did ask my T if I demonstrated any mental disorders as well, because I did at one time begin to question it, and she assured me that she didn't see any of the indicators to warrant testing for such things.  So, hey, theres a bright side in all this mess... .

I know that only I can decide what's best for my life.  But, I can't help but think, what if I'm walking away from greatness for something less or is that simply FOG I am seeing?

[thisworld]

Here is how an obsessive mind works sometimes (I'm not calling you obsessive, but I like the logic of this and think sometimes we all do this.)

We have some ideas, we think about them in detail, in more detail, in more detail. We arrive at a conclusion or an open what if question. I'll call that X.

Some other time, we have different ideas (circumstances may be similar with a difference or they may be completely different), we think about them in detail, in more detail, in more detail. We arrive at a conclusion or an open what if question. Again X.

We can repeat this endless times. Sometimes, this is how we actually recognize that it's an obsession (because we may miss it. Obsessive thoughts, they seem so real). I may have a theme (say fear based, "will this happen to me?" If my mind manages to come up with the same question under each new circumstance, I recognize that it's an obsession.

I wouldn't call yours an obsession because you are in a detachment and healing period now, despite constant input form J. But, each time you talk to her, you come up with the same question. I don't remember exactly, so I apologize if I'm misrepresenting it. But recently, more or less the same question was about DBT. (Would she offer a satisfactory relationship to someone if she took DBT). Now, you are questioning whether she would offer a satisfactory relationship to you if you had started under different circumstances.

Let's forget about everyone else and their actions and look at J. because many people, no matter what the circumstances (the man is married, this happens that happens) can actually come up with behaviour that is not hurtful. This is because many people have a sense of individual responsibility. Not as a duty, but as part of what constitutes their self, their identity. So, they don't explain all their actions with "Well but this is what happened and that's what happened and then I acted HURTFULLY." In an adult world, not everything is about what others do or what happens to us. However, BPD rationality almost convinces us things work like that. They don't, actually. I see a lot of explanations as to others' actions and circumstances from her here, but zero responsibility.

How correct would it be to expect this from her?

You decide, do you see BPD as a mental illness?

To what extent do you expect a sense of responsibility from her? (Each person with BPD differs).

Are you satisfied with this present level?

In a healthy world, we should stop explaining behaviour with just circumstances. There are so many other concepts, so many values. Not very extraordinary things, either. Only, we just don't walk around blaming everyone else for our actions.

About this interaction. Here is what I think:

1. "Hot" is replaced with "cute." Still the same triangulation.

2. Do you actually know J? What does she mean by dating. What does she mean by going to dinner? When someone calls someone hot, cute, whatever, even if they talk about just football and eat a sausage sandwich, is that just friendship (given that they had some sort of history)?

3. What exactly does it mean to "really speak" to someone? Usually, we speak to people or we don't. The frequency and content gives us an idea about what's going on. When someone asks us, we are able to give a clear answer as to what's happening. ("I don't know what's going on between us" is a clear answer, too.) You obviously were not give a clear answer. Thinking about BPD "methods", this doesn't surprise me in the least. I think you can imagine things that may be awaiting you, too.  

The affair aspect. It's not anybody's business to judge your extra-marital affairs here. People cheat for many reasons and some of them are perfectly understandable. You were upfront with her. She is now simply hitting under the belt. And rationalizing. And guilting.

Did you ever talk about your relationship during that period? If she said, at that time, that until you got divorced, you shouldn't expect exclusivity from her and you had no right to expect that, then maybe she has a point. I wouldn't know.  

Horrible person for starting an affair with J? I don't judge these things as horrible myself, but what was she doing while you were starting an affair with her? There is nothing like "I started an affair." Affairs are started by two people. Imagine you deceived her saying you were single. Then she discovered that you were married, and was in love (which contradicts with what she did that year but let's leave that for a moment.) Couldn't she still say "Ooops, I've made a mistake, bye." ? You started the affair, yo continued it together. Nobody is horrible here.

If I wanted to think "horrible to", I would think you were horrible to your wife rather than your affair partner, but I cannot do that because nobody can know what was going on between you two and maybe she was a very difficult person. But no, J is definitely not the person you were horrible to.  

You sleeping with your stbex, my female perspective: Married men having affairs do it, married women having affairs do it. More common than you think. People also lie about it. That's more common than you think as well. It's only extraordinary that you didn't do it. Is this wonderful behaviour? Probably not. But then being "the other woman" is not wonderful behaviour, either. This knowledge is so common that everyone warns you about it if you google "in love with a married man." We are told to accept this. So many women now this, our friends tell us about it. We really aren't that innocent and unaware of this. We also call married men "unavailable." This is because they are still in a bond (be it technical marital, emotional) or something else. In any case, they are not completely independent and under completely independent circumstances where they can give their full attention to us. Hello, they are married! Hello, they are probably living together! Sometimes, we sleep with our marital partners only because of guilt. This isn't wonderful, either. But "the other woman" is not the one who should expect sexual fidelity from you and get very disappointed if that's not there. You were a married men, anything might happen, period. That's a risk each "other woman" needs to consider.

She seemed both sad and happy: This can be a normal thing after the end of a relationship. With my BPD, it would be typical, a middle-ground, so that he could twist it the way he liked in the future. Depending on other potentials, the ratio might differ.  

Love and the best she can do: Is this best good enough for you (without any if clauses about the past)?

Many people start relationships under your circumstances. Some even become very happy second marriages. One thing is certain: women in those relationships do not treat their married affair partners the way J. treated you. this isn't about you.

[CollateralDamage]

My feedback is based on having practically the same backstory as yours (affair, etc), I would highly suggest taking the time to give your ex an opportunity to work things out.  I believe that you are second guessing the situation because you are normal, were as your BPD is not logical like you.  Your mind is wandering back to the same old thing, which is you are the one that was the problem.  I personally feel that even though your M was invalidating, it was still a rational basis of life with predictability.  The BPD will not be able to give you that.  As with you, once the trust is broken there is nothing but heartache afterwards.  Think about it, if she is late coming home from work or starts to deregulate, your first thoughts will go back to the core trust issue.  It does not sound like you had trust broken with your M, so that is something to heavily consider.

[Mutt]

Lonely_Astro,

I know that only I can decide what's best for my life.  But, I can't help but think, what if I'm walking away from greatness for something less or is that simply FOG I am seeing?

You're right. You're the only person that can make that choice. Everyone's experience is different. Maybe mine will help or may be it won't. I believe that  difficult people are in our lives to teach us about ourselves. I see my ex wife like a teacher.

She taught me to stand up for myself and to have boundaries because they protect me, boundaries are self compassion and self love. She taught me tolerance, patience and understanding. She showed me what healthy relationships are about with trust, respect, emotional intimacy, reciprocity. She showed me that happiness is created by me and isn't found in somebody else.

I believe that she was in my life only for a certain period of time to teach me. Maybe she's showing you that greatness is somewhere else.

[Anez]

Astro:

This stood out from your post above:

"My trust in her is gone and I can't get that back."

Trust moving forward is huge. We've talked about my ex and hopes of another try and sometimes I think about would I be able to trust her if we did. Not really trust that she wouldn't cheat on me but trust that she wouldn't suddenly end things again like she did so abruptly before and put me back in this same spot.

It seems that a lot of it comes down to trust.

Hang in there, man. I know you've got a lot on your mind and it can be overwhelming.

[Lonely_Astro]

@thisworld:  I feel that, at no point, did I ever mislead J on what my status was.  She knew I was married and I knew she was too.  We had an agreement when it all started on how it was going to be, which evolved more in the emotional sense than the physical sense.  That came later.  We talked, at length, about the physical aspects before we did anything (and the potential pitfalls).  At no point did she say she disagreed with anything.  I was hesitant (extremely so) and she was reassuring and didn't pressure me at all.  That was, as it seems, my choice.  When we started getting much more serious, I made it clear to her that if she became dissatisfied with our situation, I wanted her to tell me.  For various reasons, I told her that I wanted exclusiveness and if she couldn't do that, I would understand, and we could go our own ways.  She stated (and I quote) "I don't want to be with anyone else.  I lost you 3 years ago, I am not going to do that now.  I am yours always.  I will be here and however long yours takes, it takes."

J did admit today that she had went on a date with R.  She claims the first time was "just friends" but conceded that the second time "might have been a date" but it didn't count because she didn't feel anything for him (distorted thinking, right?).  She said she denied a 3rd with him because she felt so guilty about me (she had told me about the 3rd offer, like that makes it better).

Do I see BPD as a mental illness?  Yes, of course.  I also know it's a spectrum disorder and I still can't get a grasp "where" she falls.  She doesn't self harm, she has awareness of her disorder, can hold a job, and so on.  I have read many stories on here that shows me she's "closer" to normal than a lot.

The problem I'm having today is that she is the J that I know.  But is it a mask to keep me around?  That's another question I have.

@Anez:  Thank you for the words of encouragement.  You know my struggle with her and trust.  I have told her as much.  As much as I want to trust her, I just don't know if I ever could.  But I also can't help wonder if I caused all this because I wasn't available to her like I should've been (there when she was feeling insecure, needed to be held, etc).

[Anez]

Totally hear you, Astro. Barnes and I met while I was married and she wasn't. I always wonder how it would have played out if we didn't meet that way. And I want to now start over with her now and start it like a real relationship - first date, etc. tho that probably won't happen because she is being pretty guarded with me.

I say you talk to j indepth about the trust issue. You probably have before, but just lay everything out there and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe you get back together, maybe you don't. But you'll know you gave it everything you had and you won't have any second guesses.

Life is short. Go for whatever makes you feel good.

[Lonely_Astro]

Totally hear you, Astro. Barnes and I met while I was married and she wasn't. I always wonder how it would have played out if we didn't meet that way. And I want to now start over with her now and start it like a real relationship - first date, etc. tho that probably won't happen because she is being pretty guarded with me.

I say you talk to j indepth about the trust issue. You probably have before, but just lay everything out there and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe you get back together, maybe you don't. But you'll know you gave it everything you had and you won't have any second guesses.

Life is short. Go for whatever makes you feel good.

Therein lies the problem, Anez.  I have throughout this journey laid it out many times.  She always says she understands why I have those issues and never tries to resolve them.  I now know that the reason why she would get mad when I would bring up an oddity is because my 'accusation' was true and she lied to me about it, more or less to save face.  It's sort of like the date vs non-date issue with R.  First it was "just dinner with a friend" then it was two dinners then it was two dinners where all he talked about was how hot and cute she was and as of today it was "just dinner" and a "maybe date" a few days later and since all he seemed to want from her was what was between her legs (her words, not mine), she isn't interested in a 3rd date (oh and she felt guilty and thought of me the whole time).  You see the fallacy in that?

She also minimized pushing me away for 3 months.  Sure, she had stuff going on with M and the divorce, but I also had things going on and when I would reach out to her (I even went as far as telling her that I "needed her" one night because I was having a depressed moment and her response was "I'm sorry, I can't".  She pointed out how I never talked to her or was guarded when I did.  It simply wasn't true, she is attempting to rewrite history.  She had said that she was being asked by the few that knew about us "where I stood" with things with my wife and her response to them was "I don't know, he won't talk to me about it" (which wasn't really true, she never asked, and if I did start to talk about it she would shut me down).  She said this was followed up by some comment about "was I planning to keep her (J) as the other woman forever or what".  She claims her response was that she "never felt like the other woman but those comments wore on her".  I can understand that but rather than talk to me about it, she held that to herself yet I'm being punished for it.

Now, all of a sudden, M is gone (divorce is finalized as of a few days ago), she's in DBT, and she sees it as I'm walking away.  She said she was pushing me away all this time so she could be with me without the shadow of M and give me "a honest chance" (whatever that means, plus she forgot to tell me that).  However, I don't think I want to ride this ride anymore but a part of me is scared to let go.  Is it trauma bond?  Is it addiction?  Is it something else?  Is it really love?  I have this chance to move forward and try to repair my marriage.  My wife hasn't done a fraction of the things J has done to me, true.  I have more things in common with my wife than I do J.  So why can't I just walk away from J?  Why is she my kryptonite?  Would being single be the answer or is J dangling the carrot on the stick again?  J and I used to talk all the time about what things would be like once we were both divorced and we could openly be together.  I just can't help but wonder if J and I would be ok if my situation was different.  But, at the same time, would it be?  Or is this another test J is putting me through to prove my love to her simply so she can flee to another's arms after I jump that hurdle?  After all, J didn't really perk back up until I told her I was walking away and all of a sudden she's full of explanations for why she's done what she's done these past 3 months.

My Vulcan side tells me to simply walk way.  It is illogical to think that my actions 'forced' her to do what she has done to me this year, she chose to do those things and lie about it.  My emotional side is telling me that maybe, just maybe, because she always saw me half in and half out she was doing the same thing.  Of course, we openly talked about what we were doing, she just lied about her side of it what was seemingly most of the time. 

That's where I realize that I cannot trust a word she says.  As Collateral said, let's pretend for a moment that I don't work things out with my marriage and I become single.  J and I agree to start dating (which, strangely enough J focused on a lot... .the idea of courtship together - dates, dinners, etc when we talked about future events).  That goes well, so we move in together.  I'm off from work this day and she's normally home around 4:30.  She calls and says she has to stop by her moms (another point of contention for me, btw, as her mom is always calling/texting/whatever with her and heaven forbid J didn't answer) and she ends up not being home until 5:30.  What am I immediately going to think?  ":)id she really go by her parents or did she go meet someone?".  That's what my immediate thought would be.  Or, I get sent out of town for a few days on business.  She doesn't answer when I call/text and claims she never received a call/text or responds an hour later with an excuse.  What will I think? "She must've been with someone else", that's what.  I can't live under that kind of pressure, no one can.

The other side of that coin is what if I could rebuild my trust in her?  What if everything she said to me was true (I know in the moment it was, I mean really true).  I believe that J is capable enough to say something she truly means.  As in I truly believe that she loves me and wants a life with me, I also think she's so scared I'm going to leave that her disorder kicks in and she does 'bad' things and when that prophecy doesn't come to pass she feels guilt/shame/remorse and that sends her further down the rabbit hole.  J can be very loving, compassionate, understanding, caring, and an awesome woman.  She can also be the complete opposite (I have seen more of the opposite the past 3 months, all of a sudden she is swinging back to the first set of adjectives - coincidence?).  But, so can I.  So, I am left with what if.  What if her BPD has held her back from telling me all this, this year and she's just now being able to discuss it with me?  What if she truly wants there to be an us (and even with all the history) and puts in the work to allow me to trust her?  What if that's why I've stuck around, because it's meant to happen?

What I mean is, what if, really my martial status is the issue between us?  What if that is what caused all this, what if I am truly at fault for losing her again in my lifetime?  The other side of that coin is, what if it isn't?

[Anez]

Man, Astro. These relationships are so darned hard. There's no easy answer here and it must be driving you crazy. Mine is driving me crazy.

I get how you feel about how hard it would be to work on repairing your marriage because you'd be thinking of J. That's what happened with my marriage post separation. I wanted some of my marriage and I wanted all of my peBPD. I just couldn't shake it. And here I am divorced and trying to figure it all out.

I'd suggest making a pros and cons list about J. It could be very telling either way.

This is hard, tho. We deserve to be in a relationship with someone we can love and trust.

[izabellizima]

Just my opinion. I am new here and have only been away from the ex for 18 days but let me say this, because I just got my butt kicked recently and am still hurting: let J go.

I am a "thoughts" person and I know that if you are logical like me, you will do exactly what you said you would do: you will not trust her because you know that BPDs thrive on chaos. A stable monogamous relationship is probably not truly appealing to her. Just reading about how she lied makes me think of all the times my ex was lying and my gut was telling me, "OPEN YOUR EYES AND STOP BEING HER IDIOT." But I have co-dependency issues that made me just ignore my gut. I once had an affair with a girl. She never lied to me even though I was with another person. She waited for me to end it and we then moved on. Never was there mistrust on either part. Just because it began as an affair, doesn't mean there has to be mistrust or lies. A healthy person would just understand the complications and be mature about moving forward. Just my opinion.

One of the best things about my previous relationships (before the BPD) was the complete trust I had in those partners. TOTAL trust. After being with someone who my gut told me was deceptive (and later I found out my gut was spot on) I never ever wanna feel like that again. Remember that feeling like rocks in your gut. Remember why you're here. When we were ending, my ex told me we should start over, court, go on dates. Not sure why she said that, but I suspect they love the courting part of it and not the (boring) stable portion of relationships. If your J really wanted the stability of a real relationship, she would know you are way past courting. You already had trauma and drama and bonds and history.

I do not know if I will ever find another girl as thrilling as my ex, but I've certainly had prettier and nicer and more sincere girlfriends. I fear I will end up alone, so I think about going back to a person I love and trust but do not feel complete with. Maybe we're just scared of being alone and starting over.

[Anez]

There is a lot of sense in that post, Izabell. My therapist would agree with all of it.

Sorry you are hurting right now, too, but welcome to the board.

[Lonely_Astro]

Just my opinion. I am new here and have only been away from the ex for 18 days but let me say this, because I just got my butt kicked recently and am still hurting: let J go.

I am a "thoughts" person and I know that if you are logical like me, you will do exactly what you said you would do: you will not trust her because you know that BPDs thrive on chaos. A stable monogamous relationship is probably not truly appealing to her. Just reading about how she lied makes me think of all the times my ex was lying and my gut was telling me, "OPEN YOUR EYES AND STOP BEING HER IDIOT." But I have co-dependency issues that made me just ignore my gut. I once had an affair with a girl. She never lied to me even though I was with another person. She waited for me to end it and we then moved on. Never was there mistrust on either part. Just because it began as an affair, doesn't mean there has to be mistrust or lies. A healthy person would just understand the complications and be mature about moving forward. Just my opinion.

One of the best things about my previous relationships (before the BPD) was the complete trust I had in those partners. TOTAL trust. After being with someone who my gut told me was deceptive (and later I found out my gut was spot on) I never ever wanna feel like that again. Remember that feeling like rocks in your gut. Remember why you're here. When we were ending, my ex told me we should start over, court, go on dates. Not sure why she said that, but I suspect they love the courting part of it and not the (boring) stable portion of relationships. If your J really wanted the stability of a real relationship, she would know you are way past courting. You already had trauma and drama and bonds and history.

I do not know if I will ever find another girl as thrilling as my ex, but I've certainly had prettier and nicer and more sincere girlfriends. I fear I will end up alone, so I think about going back to a person I love and trust but do not feel complete with. Maybe we're just scared of being alone and starting over.

Welcome to the board!  I'm sorry to hear you're going through what you are and thank you for your insight. 

You are correct (as others have pointed out) that no matter the circumstances of how our r/s started, there was no reason for her to do the vast majority of what she did this past year.  Would it all change if I were single and we could "start over"?  Probably not.  There would always be some sort of drama involved with her.  Plus, as you pointed out, J should recognize that we are beyond simple courting.  We've had long discussions (fantasies, if you will) about a future life together with a little house in the country, with a little fence, and little kids.  Does that kind of talk happen with someone in the courting phase of a r/s?  No.  I truly believe J wants a "do over" because she wants to be that girl she told me she is, but she just can't seem to get there from here.

One of my life goals, that I've always been open with J about, is to purchase enough land to farm.  I grew up on a farm and I want to get back to that.  For me, there's something meditative about it.  I am close to that goal after saving and planning.  In a strange twist, J went to look at houses in the city (she made the comment that the whole time she was looking at this one particular house all she could think of was me and our talks about living together and having a family). 

Now don't get me wrong, as far as both of us are concerned (at this point) we are done.  But I found it odd that she's back to house shopping (which she has been doing for the past year that I've been around).  The house she was looking at had a large building on the property which would make a good wood shop (or large garage or whatever else you wanted).  She was talking about if she bought it, she would tear down the building.  That lead to joking about how she could make a wood shop or make it into a small barn for animals or some other country style thing, since she prides herself of being a "redneck".  She said "you know I don't do any of that stuff."   Which is also ironic to me, since she was married to a guy who operated a hobby farm and she talked about helping him all the time.

Where I was going with that is if I chose to try to work it out and I did with J, how incompatible are we really?   It turns out that I don't really know J, even if I thought I did.  Maybe that's the BPD, I don't know.  If she "doesn't do farming" and that's a life goal for me, how's it going to work?   While I enjoy the work, I know I can't do it all alone and I don't want/need the argument when I need help with something.  I've pointed this out to J (about my hobby farm goal and how she seems to not want that) and she always flips and says the opposite of "I don't do farming". 

Of course, going back a moment, now she's looking at houses to move out of her parents (something I've encouraged this past year because of her mom - who's a Momster, btw).  She always claimed she didn't have the money and J even broke down a few weeks ago when she finally agreed to talk to me (after weeks of begging) and admitted to me she was "completely broke" and that was a stressor for her.  I believe that to be true, as she shops all the time.  J did give me gifts on special occasions this year and I always felt bad because I wondered if she really had the money to buy them or was she overspending.  I'm not much of a material guy, I'd rather have her sit on the couch with me and watch tv over buying me stuff.  J could never grasp that idea.  Now, all of a sudden it seems, she's flush with cash to the point she's going to buy a cottage in the city ("I like this house and I have the money for it, so why not?  It gets me away from my parents so I probably will.".

Ugh. Emotions.

[izabellizima]

If a BPD girl tells you she loves you it may not be a lie but it can go from white to black in no time.

If she is being the girl of your dreams to keep you, that is shady motivation. Can you know if that is her motivation? Doesn't the fact that you even have to wonder that raise RED FLAGS?

Do you think you can handle her splitting you black when she does turn you into the man of her nightmares and hates you? Will it happen? It is definitely a big possibility with BPDs.

Deep down you know (or you would not even be posting here) that choosing J may mean choosing impermanence and lies and that she may be playing her role to keep you. Many of us lost years to a BPD we thought could be... .the one. Well, she ACTS and LOOKS like the one, right? But there was always something off... .

My opinion is that liars do not stop lying. Mature people will say, "I have been seeing other people because we were not official then, but if you want to be monogamous, lets go." Mature people do not say, "It was one hang out... .no it was one hang out AND a date... .BUT it didn't mean anything because... ." Why justify things? Liars justify things. Honest people do not change their truths or explain them. Again, the excuses for why she may have lied or throwing things in your face like "if YOU hadn't been married... ." seem way immature.

Mature relationships born from affairs do not flow like that. It is known that the wife is there, the dying relationship is not used as a reason to hurt one another, and then the new relationship blooms in complete honesty and trust and forgiveness BECAUSE there was never a lie or other interested parties invited to dine with us.

High functioning BPDs are still mentally ill and if its not manifesting at work or with friends... .where does it manifest? Not saying never go out with a BPD, but be aware that setting boundaries may turn you into the person they will rip apart. You already know she may lie and cheat. Are you willing to be on high alert all the time? Get used to the feeling of, "what is she doing... .really?" because you know its gonna be years before it goes away.

Don't get played. Set strict boundaries, but remember, the trust takes YEARS to re-gain. Wanna get on that ride because it may be amazing? Remember that saying yes to one girl is saying no to the possibility of being with someone else who may actually be the right one. Don't settle.

I mean, what if there's a girl who really REALLY wants to have a farm and loves cuddling and watching tv. What if she is out there and you are not available?

[thisworld]

Another problem with BPD is that anything, any point we are discussing right now may be restated in a completely different way 6 months later. They rewrite history, which paralyzes any human in touch with reality as we know it. Lonely_Astro, you were under a different impression while all these were happening. Nothing guarantees that this will not happen again. To the contrary, this is even not personal, it's BPD. Tomorrow, your history together may be rewritten again. Are we able to severe our connection with reality and carry on living? Everything is grounded in it and BPD people live there only on the surface.

I think about high-functioning, low-functioning for my relationship a lot - he was mostly low-functioning. I have read that these categories overlap. Someone who is high-functioning in something may be low-functioning in some other things. I think some of us are here on this board because our partners were low-functioning in certain forms of relationships - fidelity, emotional cheating, physical cheating etc etc- even though they were high-functioning in jobs etc. I don't think this changes really.

[Lonely_Astro]

If a BPD girl tells you she loves you it may not be a lie but it can go from white to black in no time.

If she is being the girl of your dreams to keep you, that is shady motivation. Can you know if that is her motivation? Doesn't the fact that you even have to wonder that raise RED FLAGS?

Do you think you can handle her splitting you black when she does turn you into the man of her nightmares and hates you? Will it happen? It is definitely a big possibility with BPDs.

Deep down you know (or you would not even be posting here) that choosing J may mean choosing impermanence and lies and that she may be playing her role to keep you. Many of us lost years to a BPD we thought could be... .the one. Well, she ACTS and LOOKS like the one, right? But there was always something off... .

My opinion is that liars do not stop lying. Mature people will say, "I have been seeing other people because we were not official then, but if you want to be monogamous, lets go." Mature people do not say, "It was one hang out... .no it was one hang out AND a date... .BUT it didn't mean anything because... ." Why justify things? Liars justify things. Honest people do not change their truths or explain them. Again, the excuses for why she may have lied or throwing things in your face like "if YOU hadn't been married... ." seem way immature.

Mature relationships born from affairs do not flow like that. It is known that the wife is there, the dying relationship is not used as a reason to hurt one another, and then the new relationship blooms in complete honesty and trust and forgiveness BECAUSE there was never a lie or other interested parties invited to dine with us.

High functioning BPDs are still mentally ill and if its not manifesting at work or with friends... .where does it manifest? Not saying never go out with a BPD, but be aware that setting boundaries may turn you into the person they will rip apart. You already know she may lie and cheat. Are you willing to be on high alert all the time? Get used to the feeling of, "what is she doing... .really?" because you know its gonna be years before it goes away.

Don't get played. Set strict boundaries, but remember, the trust takes YEARS to re-gain. Wanna get on that ride because it may be amazing? Remember that saying yes to one girl is saying no to the possibility of being with someone else who may actually be the right one. Don't settle.

I mean, what if there's a girl who really REALLY wants to have a farm and loves cuddling and watching tv. What if she is out there and you are not available?

You are absolutely correct in what you said.  There has been a lot of immaturity.  From the best I can gather, J is "stuck" in teenage years, emotionally.  Don't get me wrong, she can be mature at times, but most of the time she reminded me of a 16 year old girl at the mall. 

The part I have struggled with is seeing that she appears to be regulated and grounded herself right now.  She's actually talking to me, taking responsibility for past acts, and reminds me of the J that she was when all this began.  Seeing her like that is what makes it so difficult.  I know what I have to do and that's what's killing me.  It's easy on paper, sure.  I'm fighting emotion right now.

[Lonely_Astro]

Another problem with BPD is that anything, any point we are discussing right now may be restated in a completely different way 6 months later. They rewrite history, which paralyzes any human in touch with reality as we know it. Lonely_Astro, you were under a different impression while all these were happening. Nothing guarantees that this will not happen again. To the contrary, this is even not personal, it's BPD. Tomorrow, your history together may be rewritten again. Are we able to severe our connection with reality and carry on living? Everything is grounded in it and BPD people live there only on the surface.

I think about high-functioning, low-functioning for my relationship a lot - he was mostly low-functioning. I have read that these categories overlap. Someone who is high-functioning in something may be low-functioning in some other things. I think some of us are here on this board because our partners were low-functioning in certain forms of relationships - fidelity, emotional cheating, physical cheating etc etc- even though they were high-functioning in jobs etc. I don't think this changes really.

J is high-functioning and also a chameleon.  I would've always placed her high on the spectrum (she can function, is aware of her issues, and you would swear it "wasn't that bad" compared to a lot of the other accounts I've read on here.  I feel bad sometimes for talking about mine because my level of abuse opposed to what other members have been through is so much different.  J has done some mean things to me, but some of the others on here have been through a lot worse.  But, definitely the higher functioning BPs are the most damaging because you just can't see it coming or they hide it so well that it blindsides you.  Had I always somewhat expected J to bite me?  Yes.  Still didn't take the sting out of it.

In this week, I have found out some things I had suspected and she verified as true, she has shown me love/compassion like she hasn't in the past 3 months, she truly sees it as me leaving her (and admits her behavior is the reason and she doesn't "blame or hate" me for my choice), she's cried, apologized, and it's tearing me apart to be walking away.  I don't want to do it, but I know I have to.  She crossed a hardline boundary for me and if I don't do this, I'm only hurting myself in the long run.  I have also seen in this week how she wasn't viewing the r/s like she had led me to believe, how she had been wearing a mask most of the time, and that she does lack (or at least struggles with) empathy. 

Even during all this, I have caught her in messed up timelines which tells me she's still lying.  For instance, she told me that she had tried to work it out with M when we first started up (she didn't tell me about that, obviously).  She had claimed that was in Nov/Dec of 2014.  She claims she was solely focused on me after that.  But, later she would go on to say that she tried to work it out with him in the winter and when I asked for specific months she "couldn't remember exactly but it was in the winter".  Was Nov/Dec considered winter?  Maybe.  But, she started acting odd in late Jan of 2015 and I had started checking up on her whereabouts even then because of the oddities.  She was supposed to be living with her parents, which was on the way to my work, so some early mornings I would drive by and her car wouldn't be there (this was super early).  She always had an excuse and even now she swears up and down that she wasn't with M (or anyone else), but frankly I don't believe that.  Why should I?  So it just happens to be a coincidence that "in the winter" when her car wasn't at her house and she had went back to M "in the winter" with dates she "can't remember", right?  Then she goes on to say that "at some point much later" her and M had dinner together and talked about getting back together again but she could see it wouldn't work and she didn't go back.  She also couldn't remember the month/date this had taken place, either.  So, this whole time she has been mad at me for being married, yet she's kept me as the other guy without me knowing.  At least J knew she was the other woman during that time.  I didn't get that privilege.  Please keep in mind, too, that I was under the impression that I was the only one in J's life.  I couldn't (and wouldn't) have judged her if she chose to see other people during our affair.  But, that wasn't the discussion we had had (trust me, I had told her I would understand and we would stop, for various reasons). 

Oh and she also admitted that she outright lied to me about her divorce proceedings this entire year (and lied to me when I pointed out I knew she wasn't actually divorcing).  She was very cold when she made those statements and blamed me for all of it.  It was my fault that she lied to me because I was married and since she wasn't living with M (at the time) it was 'different'. 

Moving on, while I told her that we wouldn't be speaking on a personal level for 2 months, she took that to mean forever.  She literally has been acting like I am about to depart for Mars (and I feel that way, too).  I see the J I know, but I also see the 'other' J too.  For instance, we were having a text conversation about this past year (reminiscing about the good times we shared as we had talked about the bad already) and in a moment of weakness for me, I asked her what she had hoped for the future to hold for us.  Not what did she think was going to happen, but what she had hoped would happen.  Yes, it was a stupid thing to ask, but I didn't hold the question back. 

Anyway, two hours later she replied with "idk. I don't.  I wish I did.  Sorry I've been coloring!"  To add some perspective to that, she had been talking at work today about how she wanted an adult coloring book for Christmas (and no one had gotten her one) so she bought one.  She said she was going to buy pens/markers/pencils after work and get to coloring.  I guess she decided to do that.  But my point of telling you that was to illustrate how, in the middle of what I saw as an in-depth conversation, she wandered off into coloring.  That literally was more important than talking to me when she knows in less that 48 hours we aren't going to be speaking again for awhile (if ever, to be honest).  Did the conversation get to deep?  Maybe.  But it further shores up my decision to walk away.  Anyone who sees coloring in a book more important to do in the middle of a conversation with someone they claim to "love more deeply than they will ever know" is someone I cannot ever have a truly fulfilling r/s with. 

Earlier today J actually asked me if I was going to work it out with my wife or not.  I told her I didn't know, because, well I didn't know.  She looked at me and in a snarky tone said "well, I wish you two the best of luck.  Especially for your kid."  Just kind of got under my skin (its intended purpose, of course) because J hasn't wanted to have jack crap (and jack left town, btw) to do with me for 3 months, yet me possibly moving on has her tore to pieces.

There's so much water in the boat now, it's crazy.  I am so emotionally spent from this week.