Is it all about them?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I and pwBPD have not talked for nine days. During last conversation, I told him that he and estranged spouse aren't as separated as I thought and it is very painful for me. He acknowledged that, told me he loved me, but except for a brief impersonal email have not heard from him.

Every time, I have been upset about something (even if it's very fixable--and I know this is not), he has either disappeared -- or triangulated (called wife or, I suspect, tried to line up another replacement). Do other people find that their BPDs can't handle relationship conflict or stress AT ALL?

Also, I'm beginning to suspect that this whole relationship has all been about him and his needs -- no matter how much he has said he loves me. When I am of use to him (when I make him feel loved and cared for, when I intrigue and entertain him, when he feels close to me), I hear a lot from him. When I make him feel uncomfortable or he just feels that it won't work out -- he calls someone else. And then often regrets it, because he realizes he has just sabotaged our relationship -- and then I get sad and moody phone calls and then he disassociates, disregulates or disappears.


And for people who have experienced this, does it change without therapy? Or do you have to go through life pretending that everything is wonderful?

[Narkiss]

I and pwBPD have not talked for nine days. During last conversation, I told him that he and estranged spouse aren't as separated as I thought and it is very painful for me. He acknowledged that, told me he loved me, but except for a brief impersonal email have not heard from him.

Every time, I have been upset about something (even if it's very fixable--and I know this is not), he has either disappeared -- or triangulated (called wife or, I suspect, tried to line up another replacement). Do other people find that their BPDs can't handle relationship conflict or stress AT ALL?

Also, I'm beginning to suspect that this whole relationship has all been about him and his needs -- no matter how much he has said he loves me. When I am of use to him (when I make him feel loved and cared for, when I intrigue and entertain him, when he feels close to me), I hear a lot from him. When I make him feel uncomfortable or he just feels that it won't work out -- he calls someone else. And then often regrets it, because he realizes he has just sabotaged our relationship -- and then I get sad and moody phone calls and then he disassociates, disregulates or disappears.


And for people who have experienced this, does it change without therapy? Or do you have to go through life pretending that everything is wonderful?

[Daniell85]

For him, it is about him. There is likely an element of shame in his current disappearing act. Also, it is a lesson BPD tends to try and teach the non: if you refuse to do it their way, they will try and hurt you into compliance.

Probably your BPD person will come back around at some point.

So, the real question for you, is what do you want from this?  Did you read the lessons on the right of this page?

While enforcing boundaries can be painful, your boundaries will give you some degree of internal peace. Your boundaries, in alignment with your values, protect you.

For example, you let him know you dont want to be in a relationship with a married man. You enforce that by not being in that kind of relationship. Painful, when you love someone, but honoring your own self and your values, more importantly, is healthy self love. That is the foundation of how you choose to live your life.

[Narkiss]

Daniel85: I've been thinking about my values (i.e. treating people well, standing up for what I believe in, tolerance, etc) and realized how little this relationship aligns with them. 

Yes, probably at some point, he will come around. I do really miss him -- to the point it is painful. But more and more, I'm hoping that I won't be there when he does. I can not give 95 percent in a relationship and be satisfied with the remaining 5 percent. I cannot bury or swallow my feelings for fear of triggering him. I am tired of his feelings being the only feelings that matter. There are just so many holes in this relationship that both of us pretend to ignore. And I am tired of ignoring them. I really want to know who was the woman "friend" he brought to the dinner I was at in December (when he wasn't supposed to be in town) and I wish to God that I walked up to her and introduced herself.

[Ceruleanblue]

This does sound so much like how my BPDh operates. When I'm just fine with his abuse, and act like all is fine, he likes me, when I have boundaries, I'm painted black, and he plays the victim. I've often felt I only have use to him when he needs me somehow, either sex or an activity partner. If I need something, or am justifiably hurt, he withdraws.

When you said they just can't deal with relationship conflict or stress at all, I think you hit the nail on the head. For my BPDh, that is very, very true. Now, I'm sure some higher functioning BPD's can do this, but my husband has huge issue with it. He's a blamer, and he's super defensive, and he's really negative.

He's in DBT, but even with that, I don't see huge improvements, because I don't think he's truly trying. Oh, he has tons of time to play computer games, and watch "dumb people of Walmart" on youtube, but he just doesn't seem to be working his issues very much. I watch a lot of video's on BPD or codependence, and read up on all this too. I'm in therapy to work on ME.

I still want to think those with BPD can change, but they have to want to... .

[believer55]

Hi... .I think a key trait of BPD is the inability to deal with stress and negative emotions. My partenr will tell me on one hand he is "not a selfish person" then he will talk for ages about how he wants the relatinship to be without even asking how I am or what I would like to see. If I mention anything that could be improved he implodes thinking I don't love him anymore or that I am bossy and selfish and have to have things my own way. He once contacted an old lover ton ell her he wished he had married her... .that killed me inside.

Boundaries are everything... .just dont' expect them to be respected.

[Narkiss]

Believer55: Yes, I got split black and dumped because he thought it would never work out because I would get bossy. Likewise (Ceruleanblue), he is a huge blamer and very defensive. He projects so much that I listen carefully when he begins criticizing someone else, because he is usually talking about himself.

Anyway, I called this morning. Not sure why. He picked up the phone and immediately launched into a description of what he has been up to. He tenderly told me that he missed me very much and loves me, and went on to tell me that he is going to his wife's this weekend to deal with financial matters and a family crisis. I told him that I could not talk long and to just call me tonight while he is driving (yes, that is the sound of a boundary breaking). AND he has not called, although he has a very long drive. My best guess is that he probably did not call because I asked him to!. For the longest time, I was in the FOG, because nothing made sense. It was like 2+2=5? =13? =22? Now, in large part because of the people on these boards, it is equaling 4, like it should.

[hashtag_loyal]

So much insight on this thread! I'm so sorry you are all going through this, but I think you've all really hit it out of the park in terms of accurately describing BPD.

Every time, I have been upset about something (even if it's very fixable--and I know this is not), he has either disappeared -- or triangulated (called wife or, I suspect, tried to line up another replacement). Do other people find that their BPDs can't handle relationship conflict or stress AT ALL?

Yes! This is 100% true of my dBPDxgf. Throughout the 9 months we were together, she never once brought up anything about our relationship that needed to be changed, instead telling me how much she loved me and how thrilled she was to be my girlfriend. Yet the second anything didn't go her way (i.e. I didn't immediately stop whatever I was doing in order to shower her with attention), she was out the door to sleep with another man behind my back.

A few months after we broke up, when she was finally opening up about all the cheating, she told me that if she felt like she wasn't getting enough attention from me, should would just go get it from another guy. When I asked her if it would've been easier if she just talked to me about any issues she was having instead of immediately cheating on me, her response was a simple, "nah."

Now not all pwBPD cheat, but avoiding conflict and constantly trying to run from one's problems is a hallmark of BPD, IMO.

[JQ]

Hey NarKiss,

YOu've and others have described some classic BPD behavior here on this thread. You said, "I'm beginning to suspect that this whole relationship has all been about him and his needs -- no matter how much he has said he loves me."  You've hit the nail on the head here.  There are no "blanket statements" when it comes to people with a cluster B Mental illness like BPD ... .but a large majority of them have a co-diagnoses of something like Narcissist ... .which we all know ... "it's all about them".  You also said, "When I make him feel uncomfortable or he just feels that it won't work out -- he calls someone else". This likely triggered his internal fear of abandonment ... .THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WHAT YOU DID OR DIDN'T DO!  Remember the last 2 C's of BPD ... .YOU can't CONTROL IT! YOU can't CURE it!

Which brings me to another one of your questions.  "does it change without therapy?"  I can tell you that my exBPDgf has been in & out of therapy for over 25 yrs with multiple Ph.d's & therapist and she still has severe behavioral issues. Does it help ... .well being the codpendent that we are were or recovered from we would like to believe it does. BUT studies suggest that there is evidence to show that the frontal cortex of the brain didn't actually fully develop with some neuro pathways not actually being there. There was a show on the other night that showed a MRI of a brain with a cluster B mental illness compare to a "normal brain. The cluster B brain actually had less physical neuro connections on the neuro pathways in the brain. It's not as if it can be fixed like heart bypass. SO with that being said, does the actual physical deficiency of electrical hubs inhibit the frontal cortex from learning socially acceptable behavior in part due to childhood trauma? What is certain is that the frontal cortex of a BPD is actually broken and the jury is still out if they can learn to adjust their behavior and thought process. And depending on how many "hubs" are actually missing depends on the severity of the mental illness and the extremes of their behavior.

hashtag said, "avoiding conflict and constantly trying to run from one's problems is a hallmark of BPD" ... .no two people are alike without BPD ... .and so it goes the same with those with BPD ... .no two will behave completely like the other.  Like not all sociopaths are the same they exhibit similar behavior to the same degree ... .but would you date one?

J

[gundam94]

My ex BPD gf only cared about herself. Which she hid very well. She volunteers and stuff like that but it's only to further her own self. When we were together we hardly saw each other. She would go out of her way to make herself extremely busy. And yes when something didn't go her way, no matter how small, it was full on panic attacks and break downs.

She thought that just keeping me on the "back burner" was perfectly ok because she "had her entire life to spend time with me". I'd go 4 to 6 weeks without spending time with her. When I'd ask her to cancel plans because I really missed her and wanted to see her, it was always a fight. When she dumped me she said "I should never have to cancel plans for you or anybody else. I don't care if you are my boyfriend. They are MY plans". That right there tells me she only cares about herself.

[Ceruleanblue]

AND he has not called, although he has a very long drive. My best guess is that he probably did not call because I asked him to!.

This is classic in my relationship with BPDh. I feel that anything I need or ask for (needs wise), he's sure to not do, just out of spite, him feeling "controlled" or something. Also, my BPDh is highly narcissistic, and I feel selfish emotionally. He wants to take everything I have to give emotionally and physically, and give nothing back except a roof over my head. He wants companionship when he wants it, sex when he wants it, and the rest of the time he just wants me to be quiet.

I too think you are right, I think this relationship has been all about him, and his needs, and he isn't concerned about yours. My BPDh is much the same. I find the narcissism much harder to deal with than the BPD(or whatever it is he has, and I'm learning towards thinking he actually is antisocial). The narcissism is just staggering how nothing much but them matters. With BPDh, this is the order: HIS KIDS, HIM, his job, his computer games, his hobbies, my daughter, then ME. I'm way, way down the list of being any kind of priority. This is not a reflection of ME, it's a sad reflection of him.

[Narkiss]

Yes, to everything. We were (are?) long distance. When I would tell me how important it was for me to spend time together (would generally see him every 4 to 9 weeks), he would mirror (parrot?) what I said, make plans and then cancel them. It's like he turned all the rules of decent human behavior on its head -- and emotionally I still can't believe it. I think he cares about me at some level, but it's like I don't exist for him, except to fill a need. I found out three weeks ago that he can't even spell my last name! 

JQ; No, I would not go out with a sociopath, but I also never imagined I'd go out with a borderline either! And especially a borderline with strong narc and minor sociopathic traits. I found this article online about an experiment that shows they have trouble understanding when relationships are breaking down and do not know how to repair them. And I have seen this firsthand.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/borderline-personality-disorder/

Cerulaeanblue: I also find the narcissism harder and more hurtful than the BPD. I once told him that I want to be a priority with him. He told me not to pressure him. Why do you stay with your husband? Why do i keep reaching out to my pwBPD (who can be so loving but treat me so poorly)?

I have this emotional memory of him as a kind, loving person and my actual memory of the other aspects (cruel, cold, angry, chaotic etc.) seem to slip away after a certain number of days without contact. Does anyone else experience this?

Over the summer I dreamed that he asked me to meet him in a parking lot to talk. Although it seemed strange to me and didn't make sense, I met him there. I got him into his car and he began slowly circling the parking lot. All of a sudden, his speech fragmented and became distorted. He then drove straight for a guardrail and plunged off a cliff (taking me with him). It was such a vivid dream -- and so horrible -- that I keep trying to make sense of it. My latest thought is that I ignored my gut -- that there was something really wrong going on -- and I did what he asked me to do. And I'm worried I will again.

[Daniell85]

Your dream is pretty accurate. Amazingly so. We have said here before that letting the BPD into the driver's seat... they will drive over the edge and take you down with them.

I was told that means I have to have strong boundaries. WE. You and I, everyone else.

I was reading here yesterday, and one very wise poster was talking about "bottom lines".

As in what is the line that gets crossed that essentially means the end of the relationship for you?

I see a ton of psychopathic traits in my now exbf. He crossed that line, I was done. I can see in the last few days since, he has literally been wallowing in that same action. Like finally, at last, he can just do it and do it and do it. I guess it's his way of flipping his finger at me, he knows how upsetting I have always found it.

It's really important to remember that you ( and me) are not ever dealing with a normal person. I have never been able to consistently keep that in mind. I think maybe I just could never accept that I was trying to put my heart in the hands of someone who is insane in many ways.

[Narkiss]

I have dreamed about him a lot. The ones I remember best all involve death and destruction and emptiness. My boundaries are not good, I am coming to realize. Although I am much better at saying no, I tend to do what other people want me to do if they are close to me and it feels important to them. (Interestingly, I used to be a newspaper reporter and absolutely did not accept anyone telling me what to write). In this relationship, though, I have been remarkably compliant and passive, kind of like his good-time girl, (and although I generally don't see myself that way absolutely hate feeling that way). I think that if anything will drive me out of it, it will be this feeling of being bobbed around on a string.

I think if he raged at me, I would end it. if I knew that he was back with his wife and has no intention of getting divorced... .  If he was seeing someone else... .If I knew that he is a selfish as I think he is... .Just found out that he does not even know how to spell my last name (!)