Is this a universal thought for ALL males or just BPD males?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

hi,  i was going through some paperwork this morning (actually looking for a stamp to mail my mom's day card).  i came across a notepad from my exBPDhusband (we were together 9 years).  this pad contained notes that my ex had made during one of his 5 stays at a rehab facility.   the assignment given to the patients was to reflect on goals.  here is what i read on my (separated) husband's notepad (and i am going from memory as i cant bear to read it again!)    my ex's goals were to : work on his fears, work on his insecurities, work harder at his job, stay in shape, stop lying, and... . TO ALWAYS HAVE SOMEONE WAITING IN THE WINGS.     what the hail?  that's a goal? for some reason, maybe the girls can relate, that hit me like a ton of bricks.  now, do most men have that for a goal? that is my question!   because that was the LAST thing on my mind as his girlfriend, then wife.  i always thought we had a great relationship.  i kind of feel like the guy in the TRUMAN movie, where nothing he knew as real, was real.   as a married woman, i would never check out men, flirt, or do anything disrespectful in my mind or actions when it came to other men.  having someone waiting in the wings was the LAST thing on my mind.  i loved being faithful.  i loved thinking he was faithful.    i can say the same for many, if not all, of my girlfriends throughout the years. they concentrate on their current relationship, focusing on their man.  so again, do ALL men have that "someone waiting for me just in case" mentality?  or is it simply a manifestation of the ongoing fear of inevitable abandonment found in the borderline personality?  Thank you for your replies, londons

[londons]

hi,  i was going through some paperwork this morning (actually looking for a stamp to mail my mom's day card).  i came across a notepad from my exBPDhusband (we were together 9 years).  this pad contained notes that my ex had made during one of his 5 stays at a rehab facility.   the assignment given to the patients was to reflect on goals.  here is what i read on my (separated) husband's notepad (and i am going from memory as i cant bear to read it again!)    my ex's goals were to : work on his fears, work on his insecurities, work harder at his job, stay in shape, stop lying, and... . TO ALWAYS HAVE SOMEONE WAITING IN THE WINGS.     what the hail?  that's a goal? for some reason, maybe the girls can relate, that hit me like a ton of bricks.  now, do most men have that for a goal? that is my question!   because that was the LAST thing on my mind as his girlfriend, then wife.  i always thought we had a great relationship.  i kind of feel like the guy in the TRUMAN movie, where nothing he knew as real, was real.   as a married woman, i would never check out men, flirt, or do anything disrespectful in my mind or actions when it came to other men.  having someone waiting in the wings was the LAST thing on my mind.  i loved being faithful.  i loved thinking he was faithful.    i can say the same for many, if not all, of my girlfriends throughout the years. they concentrate on their current relationship, focusing on their man.  so again, do ALL men have that "someone waiting for me just in case" mentality?  or is it simply a manifestation of the ongoing fear of inevitable abandonment found in the borderline personality?  Thank you for your replies, londons

[hope2727]

I'm totally with you london.  That is brutal. I can't wait to hear responses.

[once removed]

hi londons 

i agree with hope2727 that thats really brutal to read. im sorry you came across it 

im afraid there is no universal thought for all males or females. i think i might have felt that way once or twice in elementary school.

or is it simply a manifestation of the ongoing fear of inevitable abandonment found in the borderline personality? 

i think thats spot on, and sadly, far more common among people with BPD (not all) than you might think.

[OneUnprepared]

Of course, I can't speak for all males, but for myself, no, I have never had any desire whatsoever to have someone "waiting in the wings." I have always wanted monogamy and commitment.

[once removed]

i should add: its not unique to BPD, and its certainly not unique to males (my ex replaced me and there are many stories on here that include females with BPD doing exactly that). its also general insecurity and difficulty being alone, independent, not in a relationship, etc. it may anticipate against impending abandonment in general as well.

its fundamental immaturity really.

[londons]

well heck, that is good to know!  honestly, i am aware that maybe men tend to think about sexual situations more than women do (just going by myself and girlfriends over the years).  but i would surely like to think that when men are thinking along those terms, it's in relation to their s/o!  and if the "someone waiting in the wings" thought is common in men, i would not be judging, i would just need to read the "men are from venus (or is it mars)" book again.    jeez... .now that i think about it, i feel sorry for my next guy, he aint gonna have a chance .  

[Turkish]

Of course, I can't speak for all males, but for myself, no, I have never had any desire whatsoever to have someone "waiting in the wings." I have always wanted monogamy and commitment.

Me, too. I always had the feelng that my Ex had one foot out the door, so to speak. Then again, she used to say that she sometimes felt like the man in the r/s (Aggressive? Cheating, at the end?). Black and white thinkng.

I'm sorry you had to see that, londons, but it sounds like excuse making on his part, rather than taking responsibility for himself. Or, he did, and that's just the way he thinks.

[once removed]

i understand. to this day im sorting out a lot of my feelings on the real differences between men and women.

i dont think its so much about sex; a "replacement" can come in many forms and a great deal of it may be emotional (youve probably heard of emotional affairs). i think its related to the core fear of abandonment that you described. painful as it was to read, its a unique bit of insight that you read this person describe it as a goal, and verbalize it. common as it is among people with BPD i imagine it varies a great deal in terms of self awareness of the act.

my ex seemed to struggle with the concept of even being attracted to anyone else which never struck me as healthy. it also wasnt born out by the facts when i discovered that shed probably cheated multiple times.

it might be controversial, but personally i consider it a red flag when someone is enmeshed to the point that they suggest theyre incapable of being attracted to another, or dont know where to draw the line at healthy, friendly flirting vs cheating. i can be happily devoted to my partner and still look at other women or interact with them. were i to have the urge to go beyond that, i wouldnt act, id follow my values.

jeez... .now that i think about it, i feel sorry for my next guy, he aint gonna have a chance .  

what do you mean?

[londons]

i like that : fundamental immaturity.  my ex always made me feel like his "one and only". if nothing else, i always felt secure. thinking back,  he would say things like he couldnt pick a better wife if he chose his ideal wife "a la carte". ugh. i fell for it all. maybe i am just naive, but i never would have guessed he had eyes for anyone else- not that im such a knock out, just that he was THAT GOOD of a con man and charmer. mine, too, said to me, "i couldnt be attracted to anyone else"!  course i said that right back to him, difference is, i meant it! and still feel that way!  but i do remember times i was with him that he was overly friendly, right in front of me. and honest to goodness, we would then role play what was more appropriate. i still am not certain whether it was all an act or if he truly did not know the difference between friendly and flirty.     more commonalities in the bp individual, i guess.    once removed, perhaps your ex really did not feel the physical attraction of others, but pursued the attention for just that : ATTENTION.  neediness. the validation that was lacking in formative years as a youth. who knows. it's mind boggling.  bottom line is, there are common traits. they are confusing to us as their s/others as we try to understand what may not be 'understandable'. my ex said often, "i cant fix my broken brain with my broken brain". i hurt for him when he said that.       in answering your question as to what i meant by "i feel bad for my next guy, he hasnt got a chance,"   i was just thinking in words, that i will really be paying attention to things he says, where hes looking, what he is doing when he is not with me, etc.    and as much as i know that is unfair to him, im afraid my trust, my innocence, my positivity and my ability to give people the benefit of the doubt, left this home in one of my ex's suitcases.

[londons]

p.s.  it is really good to know that not all men think in those terms (someone waiting in the wings), and that some men still have values.  you rock, once removed.

[Fr4nz]

hi,  i was going through some paperwork this morning (actually looking for a stamp to mail my mom's day card).  i came across a notepad from my exBPDhusband (we were together 9 years).  this pad contained notes that my ex had made during one of his 5 stays at a rehab facility.   the assignment given to the patients was to reflect on goals.  here is what i read on my (separated) husband's notepad (and i am going from memory as i cant bear to read it again!)    my ex's goals were to : work on his fears, work on his insecurities, work harder at his job, stay in shape, stop lying, and... . TO ALWAYS HAVE SOMEONE WAITING IN THE WINGS.     what the hail?  that's a goal? for some reason, maybe the girls can relate, that hit me like a ton of bricks.  now, do most men have that for a goal? that is my question!   because that was the LAST thing on my mind as his girlfriend, then wife.  i always thought we had a great relationship.  i kind of feel like the guy in the TRUMAN movie, where nothing he knew as real, was real.   as a married woman, i would never check out men, flirt, or do anything disrespectful in my mind or actions when it came to other men.  having someone waiting in the wings was the LAST thing on my mind.  i loved being faithful.  i loved thinking he was faithful.    i can say the same for many, if not all, of my girlfriends throughout the years. they concentrate on their current relationship, focusing on their man.  so again, do ALL men have that "someone waiting for me just in case" mentality?  or is it simply a manifestation of the ongoing fear of inevitable abandonment found in the borderline personality?  Thank you for your replies, londons

I'd say it's not specific to BPDs, even though BPDs have for sure the need to have some partner in order to complete their selves. And avoid fears of abandonment/engulfement.

[motleymoo]

That's pretty heavy. Reminds me of my ex... .she took pride in being honest. Brutally honest at times, at least in a technical/calculated sense. Acting in the spirit of things... .not so much.

I can only speak for myself, but no. I have had a tendency to start leaning on people a little, emotionally, outside of the relationship when things have gotten tough (and that is something I need to work on) but the intent has always been to work on sustaining a relationship in the healthiest way I can for as long as I can, and the thought of having 'a replacement' in the wings never even enters my mind.

[WoundedBibi]

p.s.  it is really good to know that not all men think in those terms (someone waiting in the wings), and that some men still have values.  you rock, once removed.

It is good to know. When we are ready to rebuild are lives we need to remember that. Trust... sigh... .such an issue...

[steelwork]

My ex was married when I met him. We had an affair... .I'm not proud... .there's a lot I could say about that in some other topic, but I just wanted to respond to the OP.

He latched onto me like a limpet and THEN left his wife. I think in retrospect he expected me to leave my bf the minute he announced he was getting divorced, and indeed I did try--unsuccessfully. The thing is, he kept living with his wife for another year. He bought her a house when they separated, except that he moved into it with her! She eventually had to kick him out.

He just could not stand the idea of living alone, I think. When things were going bad between us, he'd talk about the theoretical woman he would end up with. He said things like, "I won't love her but I'll lie to keep her."

He continued to pursue and adore me until he had me replaced. Then blammo.

I mean, he just never thought in terms of being alone. Actually, way at the end, when he said he was "over me" but (for a few days) claimed not to have anyone else, he said his therapist had advised him not to date anyone, but he didn't want to take the advice.

Here's the hard cold truth: his apparently genuine adoration of me was inflated to serve the purpose of not being alone. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but it might as well have been. He wanted out of his marriage, but he couldn't do it without a someone in the wings: me. Then he couldn't move on from me without someone in the wings: her.

You might take the cynical view that it was calculated, or that it was "normal" male behavior, but even so, it does not fit the "men are dogs" stereotype. There was no thought of playing the field or sowing wild oats--this was abject fear of being alone.

One of the last things he said to me was that he'd "worked hard to get over his wife," and that he'd been with the wrong woman (her), just skipping right over me to my replacement. Like I played no role in it. I've become blurred over in his memory as some kind of vague connector between the indeterminate past and where he is now.

[Dhand77]

As a guy. That has never ever been my line of thought. Even during healthy break ups, I'd wait 6 to 10 months before I'd start dating again, because I respected the relationship I was once in.

I'm sorry to hear you found out something as screwed up as that list of "goals".

[londons]

hi,  thank you for your replies. it gives me hope in the future, but it brings in that replacement issue which is probably one of the toughest aftermaths we have to endure in this section of, "detaching from the wounds... ."     and as many have said, their having someone waiting in the wings, or seeing someone else, sure could be a blessing in disguise. i realize that. but gosh, it hurts. could you not keep things under control until we're divorced?   i wasnt even planning on a divorce! it was a time out!    steelwork, that was a beautiful post.  thank you for sharing your pain. how long ago was that incident? are you seeing someone now?  sorry if too personal.  and bibi, "trust, sigh".  true dat!        my break up is still so fresh, within 4 months, that the LAST thing i want to do is go on a date.  so for me, i dont understand that feeling of "i need another relationship NOW," although i do know that it is the dislike of being alone, or maybe even the inability to be alone.  i hope the time comes when i can smile at the opposite sex .  

[WoundedBibi]

hi,  thank you for your replies. it gives me hope in the future, but it brings in that replacement issue which is probably one of the toughest aftermaths we have to endure in this section of, "detaching from the wounds... ."     and as many have said, their having someone waiting in the wings, or seeing someone else, sure could be a blessing in disguise. i realize that. but gosh, it hurts. could you not keep things under control until we're divorced?   i wasnt even planning on a divorce! it was a time out!    steelwork, that was a beautiful post.  thank you for sharing your pain. how long ago was that incident? are you seeing someone now?  sorry if too personal.  and bibi, "trust, sigh".  true dat!        my break up is still so fresh, within 4 months, that the LAST thing i want to do is go on a date.  so for me, i dont understand that feeling of "i need another relationship NOW," although i do know that it is the dislike of being alone, or maybe even the inability to be alone.  i hope the time comes when i can smile at the opposite sex .  

Sorry londons I'm going to state the obvious again: if he could control himself he would not have BPD and you wouldn't be in this pickle to begin with...

BPD = no control over feelings, self, thoughts, and therefore no/limited control on action. BUT the desperate NEED to FEEL in control to balance out the being out of control. Hence the being in control where they feel they can: ghosting, silent treatment, smear campaigns, image on social media and so on.

[MapleBob]

Okay, first of all: it's awful beyond belief that you found that note. That's really invalidating of the commitment that you once had with this person.

Without having him present to probe the deeper meaning of that statement, we're left to jump to conclusions about its meaning. I'm an adult male, I don't suffer from BPD, and I *do* have thoughts like this *sometimes*. I think that men AND women in civilized society do, in some respects, have opposing needs/wants involving the need/want for variety and novelty and excitement vs. reliable commitment and safety and a predictable routine.

That being said, there is a time and place for "playing the field" or "having someone in the wings", but that time/place is certainly NOT within the confines of a committed relationship in which that is a boundary.

[steelwork]

how long ago was that incident? are you seeing someone now?  

Well, I found out he'd replaced me about a year and a half ago. I gave him several chances to end things on at least a civil note, but the last remnants of any relationship between us ended about 14 months ago.

I'm seeing someone, but I'm having a hard time committing to it. I think my vision is blurred by the fact that I have not fully detached from D. Here's the truth: I don't want to be alone, either. Who does?

[steelwork]

Okay, first of all: it's awful beyond belief that you found that note. That's really invalidating of the commitment that you once had with this person.

Without having him present to probe the deeper meaning of that statement, we're left to jump to conclusions about its meaning. I'm an adult male, I don't suffer from BPD, and I *do* have thoughts like this *sometimes*. I think that men AND women in civilized society do, in some respects, have opposing needs/wants involving the need/want for variety and novelty and excitement vs. reliable commitment and safety and a predictable routine.

That being said, there is a time and place for "playing the field" or "having someone in the wings", but that time/place is certainly NOT within the confines of a committed relationship in which that is a boundary.

I agree and should have said that it is just awful that you had to see that "goal" in writing.

I want to say that to me the need (goal!) to have someone in the wings is a totally different thing than a desire to play the field. One is about novelty-seeking and the other is about fear.

[once removed]

p.s.  it is really good to know that not all men think in those terms (someone waiting in the wings), and that some men still have values.  you rock, once removed.

im no saint. on a couple of occasions i acted contrary to my values.

to me its an attitude of "do unto others". we should not act in a way that we wouldnt want our partner to act. we need to know our limits, as well as our partners. if our partners have a significantly different line that they draw than we do, thats an important incompatibility thats unlikely to change.

if i saw a gal checking me out at the grocery store (i dont think that has ever happened) i might smile at her. crossing the line? what if we have a conversation? what if we exchange compliments?

thats my personal limit. in essence, im cheating on my values if i take it beyond that. ideally, my partner has a similar attitude. id hope she would do the same as i would. id hope she would feel some confidence boost from the exchange. in most cases, id prefer she didnt tell me, she or i can have a confidence boosting interaction without necessarily inducing jealousy or insecurity in the other, you know? on the other hand confidence is sexy. if my partner is hit on, and mentions it, and i dont detect an intention to induce insecurity in me, im more likely to be supportive and validate the notion. shes not obligated to tell me and as i said in most cases id probably prefer she didnt. just bring that confidence home.

trust is a hell of an issue. to reiterate, i think its about living our values and knowing our partners. i dont think anyone is incapable of crossing the line; i consider myself a very loyal person to friends, family, and partners, and ive done things id be uncomfortable with my partner doing.

londons, if you enter a future relationship with hyper vigilance, and monitoring behavior, it will likely inhibit trust and secure bonding, it may push an otherwise healthy guy away, and if a person is actively looking for something to upset them, theyre going to find it, real or perceived. i told my ex that all the time. she did it anyway 

take your time working on clarifying your boundaries and values and what you want in a relationship, find a partner that shares them, or similar, and respects yours. avoid getting too deep too soon. most of us come out of these relationships hyper vigilant looking for red flags, or signs of "craziness", or some other confirmation that romantic partners are not to be trusted. thats something to work through if we want to go on to have healthy relationships.

[Herodias]

Wow! That's very telling. I am surprised he wrote that actually. My husband would come home with those writing books and you could tell he was writing everything he thought they wanted him to say. He would always put: work on his marriage and be less angry... ., stuff like that. Awful thing for you to read- did he hide it from you? Mine didn't want me to see his.

[londons]

thank you, once removed. i always appreciate your comments. blue, here is the scoop on that... .   i just happen to come across those 4 folded sheets amidst the other papers in that desk drawer. i will say, that my husband did have a few journals, some of which i gave him. i believe in privacy, and have never read any of his journals nor did i look through his folders when he returned from the rehab facilities (except for medical and psych reports from the doctors). he knew i would not open them, so they were not hidden. i encouraged his writing. i wish i had kept a journal. i dont think i would have endured 9 years if i would have. i just recently started, maybe October.   when i packed up his belongings (yes, i packed) i came across a few journals but chose not to read them. i believe we all need a certain amount of privacy and the right to express ourselves without having to "share" all thoughts.  hey,  they didnt put those little locks on our diaries as kids for nothing! in some situations it may be pertinent for a partner or parent to read private writings, but not in my case.     by the way, i heard from my exbph today, thru an e mail, for the first time (3 weeks) since him notifying me of the replacement (via text, classy).    he asked 2 questions: when he could pick up the last box (if i hadnt thrown it away),  and   if i had filed.      i answered:  i will leave it inside manual garage door.  no i have not filed.      he responded:   i will come by to get the box when you are not at home    (he knows i teach during the day).   i did not feel the need to respond to that statement, so i did not.   but...     it was hard, folks!      i wanted to say... .   i love u!   i miss u!   its ok that u were with another lady!  i am here for u!  we have chemistry like no other couple!  we are soul mates!    the dogs miss u!   what's a few lies!   i make the best toast!   come home!        BUT I DIDNT and i am actually pretty doggone proud of myself.     i can only muster a little strength at a time, but i found enough to pull me through today... .    you helped

[steelwork]

Brava, londons! Hang tough, lady.

[WoundedBibi]

thank you, once removed. i always appreciate your comments. blue, here is the scoop on that... .   i just happen to come across those 4 folded sheets amidst the other papers in that desk drawer. i will say, that my husband did have a few journals, some of which i gave him. i believe in privacy, and have never read any of his journals nor did i look through his folders when he returned from the rehab facilities (except for medical and psych reports from the doctors). he knew i would not open them, so they were not hidden. i encouraged his writing. i wish i had kept a journal. i dont think i would have endured 9 years if i would have. i just recently started, maybe October.   when i packed up his belongings (yes, i packed) i came across a few journals but chose not to read them. i believe we all need a certain amount of privacy and the right to express ourselves without having to "share" all thoughts.  hey,  they didnt put those little locks on our diaries as kids for nothing! in some situations it may be pertinent for a partner or parent to read private writings, but not in my case.     by the way, i heard from my exbph today, thru an e mail, for the first time (3 weeks) since him notifying me of the replacement (via text, classy).    he asked 2 questions: when he could pick up the last box (if i hadnt thrown it away),  and   if i had filed.      i answered:  i will leave it inside manual garage door.  no i have not filed.      he responded:   i will come by to get the box when you are not at home    (he knows i teach during the day).   i did not feel the need to respond to that statement, so i did not.   but...     it was hard, folks!      i wanted to say... .   i love u!   i miss u!   its ok that u were with another lady!  i am here for u!  we have chemistry like no other couple!  we are soul mates!    the dogs miss u!   what's a few lies!   i make the best toast!   come home!        BUT I DIDNT and i am actually pretty doggone proud of myself.     i can only muster a little strength at a time, but i found enough to pull me through today... .    you helped

londons!    I'm proud of you too     I know it's hard...

But you know one day when you have worked through all of this and you know it is not okay for a guy to want your toast and get waffles somewhere else too (plus all the other BPD BS) and you know why you wanted to say "sure, go have some waffles, and a secret croissant, a little black pudding, a bowl of cereal, as long as you come nibble on my toast every now and again" and you understand the true value of your toast (h*ll yes! The best toast EVER!) you will meet a guy who will have no need for a full English or a Continental on the side but who will just want your toast, your whole toast and nothing but your toast.

Stay strong!

[Herodias]

I know what you mean... I pretty much did it and said we can get therapy and work on it. What a dummy I am! But later when he said I could take him back after he got the gf pregnant I said no- then when he said I could be the aunt, I said that would be too weird. He didn't like that. So be glad you are going through the motions. It's very hard but save your self esteem. If you go back it will happen again. I went back 3 times... This would have been 4- it just gets worse. Sorry you are in pain- we understand. It takes allot of time.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Since you ask.  I'll add my comment as a guy.  In my circles of guy-friends it would not be normal for them to have someone waiting in the wings.  But, I am mostly around guys that are either church going (not that that means much in reality, but it's a solid grounding), and/or have high security clearances (which does speak to moral character), or are involved with general community service kinds of people, and/or are emotionally healthy and mature.  

So, I say that not all guys are out to meet every sexual need, or feel like having a back-up woman in the wings is a good idea. In fact, most of the guys I know would see that as a sign of general dishonesty and a character flaw.  Single guys, I have no such expectation.  In fact, as single or casually dating I would _expect_ him to have more than one female friend.  No contract, no obligation, no problem.  

That said, I have been married for a long while, and unhappily not having my needs met in the relationship for the vast majority of it.  Maybe this is a result of too long with an uBPDw - but, the idea of another woman sends panic down my spine and a spirit of revulsion I can't describe.  I think she cured me of any desire to be around women.  I'm certainly not gay, and have a normal-to-high sex drive, but, all those years of negative interactions with a woman in a so-called intimate r/s have damaged that area of my life.  I prefer peace.  I don't need another one to tell me what to do, and cost me time and money, and bring the misery, moods swings, manipulation, guilt, and fear, and wash it all down with loneliness.  

[londons]

dear blue, thanks so much... .i needed that encouragement, for SURE. 3 times you tried and almost 4. wow. i will try and stay strong, you 2 my friend!  if it walks like a duck... .         dear wounded, STOP MAKING ME LAUGH, IM TRYING TO BE MISERABLE!  

[WoundedBibi]

dear blue, thanks so much... .i needed that encouragement, for SURE. 3 times you tried and almost 4. wow. i will try and stay strong, you 2 my friend!  if it walks like a duck... .         dear wounded, STOP MAKING ME LAUGH, IM TRYING TO BE MISERABLE!